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David Rollings | PentecostalTheology.com
This my Masters Dissertation on the history of the development of the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
http://pneumaandlogos.com/2013/08/22/from-purity-to-power-a-study-in-the-development-of-the-doctrine-of-the-baptism-of-the-holy-sp
Donald W. Dayton
In your bibliography you have cited my THEOLOGICAL ROOTS OF PENTECOSTALISM
incorrectly.
Randal W Deese
This seems to be pretty accurate. What is interesting to me, however, is that Historical Orthodoxy always taught that the Gift of the Holy Spirit was received after faith/repentance/water Baptism. If it wasn’t for the Protestant Reformation ignoring those distinctions, Pentecostalism may have developed much earlier.
Varnel Watson
What distinctions would you say were ignored?
Randal W Deese
The Protestant Reformation took away the idea that salvation and receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit were two separate events. They combined them into regeneration.
Varnel Watson
It did ?
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Are you serious? lol
Varnel Watson
You seem to know some “other” reformation How would you combine this in your Pentecostal quest. Orthodoxy teaches that is is all received in the water baptism (even infant) including church membership 🙂
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Actually, Chrismation is considered something that is done after water Baptism. You can look it up in hundreds of Orthodox catechisms. It isn’t hard to find – and church history.
Randal W Deese
Troy Day No. I know Reformation theology. Luther and Calvin hold to the idea of automationism..the idea that the Indwelling occurs at the time of “justification by faith”
Randal W Deese
Orthodoxy teaches that in chrismation a person is given the “power from on high” (Acts 1–2), the gift of the Spirit of God, in order to live the new life received in baptism.
Orthodoxy stresses that Chrismation should take place immediately after one is baptized because of Acts 2:38.
Varnel Watson
Randal W Deese you are playing with terms that do not really mean what you are saying May help to define what you mean when you use a term
Most orthodox do make difference between the baptism as a personal participation in the death and Resurrection of Christ and chrismation as a personal participation in the coming of the Holy Spirit
However, they are both administered to infants and freely if I may add, just to make sure they are issued baptismal license as members of the church
Now then, you dont really think there is a single Pentecostal who would agree that a new born infant who was just baptized and anointed has also received the HSB do you?
Randal W Deese
You are too funny. Don’t change the debate. We are taking about a doctrinal distinction – the distiction that supports the idea of a post baptismal Gift of the Holy Spirit. I stand in what I say. If you want to talk about how this relates to infants, we can.. But it is a different conversation.
Varnel Watson
hahah so you got cornered ah 🙂 I love it
Randal W Deese
Troy Day That is silly. You would be fun to debate cause of your looseness with interpretation rules… Haha
Varnel Watson
explain this chrismation then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P4a1pVpECI
Randal W Deese
Troy Day After Baptism.. what’s so hard
Varnel Watson
title reads: silly orthodox priest just got cornered 😉
Varnel Watson
So this many from the video just got the HSB?
Varnel Watson
Come on Randal W Deese explain chrismation from the video and how it has anything to do with HSB of the BIBLE ?
Randal W Deese
Troy Day One reason I am Orthodox-Pentecostal is to bring back the dead ritual to a living reality. The doctrinal truth is already there. The flame needs fanned.
Btw, churches like Calvary Chapel do not believe that one will necessarily receive the evidence in their doctrine of BHS.
Many Churches are close, but need taught like Apollos – more accurately.
Varnel Watson
🙂
Varnel Watson
Come on Randal W Deese No on really believes absolute automationism – show some proof before such acclaim
Randal W Deese
I’m not going to do all the work for you… Because I’m surprised you don’t know this information… But here is one example. This comes from a Lutheran Theologian from LCMS:
“It is no less a miracle of God’s grace at work that an adult should believe by hearing the words of the Gospel, than that an infant should receive through Baptism the Spirit who creates the very faith by which one receives incorporation into Christ”
The Spirit is given automatically. There is no separation by action not doctrine.
Varnel Watson
Show it from Luther and Calvin like you claimed not some random copy paste from Google
Randal W Deese
Troy Day I am not near my library or I would easily show you. I have all of their writings… But you are probably near the sources… Do your research.
Varnel Watson
easily 🙂 sure
Randal W Deese
Troy Day It isn’t rocket science.
Varnel Watson
Like I said you are throwing around terms without clue what they mean or where they came from So typically Orthodox. You will have more luck making Orthodox priests under Putin Pentecostal than making Pentecostal othdox 🙂 the automation of chrismation assembly line
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Well, sorry to disappoint… I’m talking and bringing in Pentecostal pastors and churches into Orthodoxy regularly. Your to late with your false prophecy
Varnel Watson
the automation of chrismation assembly line 🙂
Randal W Deese
Troy Day
I practice Chrismation that includes speaking in tongues… : )
Varnel Watson
probably on infants too as a good lutheran
Randal W Deese
Troy Day With infants in Orthodox-Pentecostalism, we breath on them prophetically, like Jesus in John 20:22
Randal W Deese
They will receive their Pentecost later
Varnel Watson
#epicFail you aint Jesus infants are not the disciples priesthood of all believers and so on and so on
Randal W Deese
Troy Day and that proves what?
Varnel Watson
your wrong hermeneutics on jn 20
Randal W Deese
Troy Day like infant dedication is? Lol
Varnel Watson
obviously you dont understand dedication either
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Oh, you mean that non Scriptural practice that so many follow and pretend it is Biblical, that one?