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Are denominations Biblical? If so, where do we see them as nadated by God in the NT, and if not, how can the existence of them today among Bible-following Christian groups be justified? Finally what proposals can be made to remedy the current situation in Christendom?
deceased person covered in a sheet with a blank toe tag.
Since the beginning of the 21st century, only 6-10% of new born believers in America receive the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, which by 2018 has resulted in:Over 60% within Global Pentecostalism do not speak in tongues
A major doctrinal shift within Pentecostal Theology today claims speaking in tongues is not the only evidence of Holy Spirit Baptism
Some theologians even claim there is no initial evidence in the Bible
Others today go further to believe that no outward sign of the Holy Spirit baptism is necessary.
what is the answer to this dilemma then? — revival and restoration of the Pentecostal Message through praying, fasting and preaching:Salvation of the sinner’s soul and entire sanctification through the Blood of Jesus
Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire with initial evidence of speaking in tongues
Supernatural gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit
Healing, deliverance and signs following
Pre-Millennial return of Christ and pre-Tribulation Rapture of His Church to glory
Please consider the URGENCY of this generation!Let us reason together what can we do to prevent this rapid decline in Biblical spirituality
John Kissinger [01/31/2016 7:41 AM]
John Ruffle not sure if you were around when we discussed the DEATH of DENOMINATIONS with Terry Wiles Tell us what you think after you read it http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/death-of-denominations/
John Ruffle [02/01/2016 2:06 AM]
I notice no one seems to want to engage in my question. It might cut a little too close to the bone maybe? Pastors who make their living from a “tythe” and who would loose their livelihood if they came “out” of their denomination have indeed life changing choices to make. But it’s worth it if it means following our Lord’s leading. Many protestant pastors have lost materially when they returned to the Catholic Church. I’d already lost everything many years before. My prayer is that those whom the Holy Spirit is speaking to – and I am convinced that their are some, possibly lurkers here- will have the courage to come out of the confusion that Martin Luther launched. Yes – the Catholic Church needed renewal – but the way St Francis did it before him – not the divisive manner of Luther.
Corey Forsyth [02/01/2016 8:49 AM]
In the strictest sense, I do not see anything in the NT upholding denominations. However, I do see examples of NT leaders keeping each other accountable. In that regard, denominations are a good thing. My opinion is that without denominations, we would have a lot more issue with rogue pastors grossly distorting the Gospel.
I am not well versed in the history of denominations but I would hope that the structure or concept pf denominations started with the same idea as Paul guiding the different churches as described through the NT.
Carolyn Parker [02/01/2016 1:10 PM]
Carolyn Parker I was to a Reviival one night anda singing group got up to sing in the song they were singing said there wasn’t going to be no denominations in heaven I saw people get up and walk out we are all going to be one
| Jackson | Dan Irving What in this article is worrying you so much that we have not already discussed? Terry brought much of it in his Death of Denominations discourse The kingdom-now appropriation within AG has also been thoroughly talked about here. Would you outline what’s new and what is concerning you in this particular text? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/death-of-denominations/ |
| Marc Jackson | Dan Irving We read the article. What are your concerns? |
| Joseph D. Absher | Mr Troy Day you have mentioned some problems with the denomination of the Assemblies of God. the NAR as you have called. at what point did it become something that ministers were willing to fight over. I ask because i don’t think the fight for identity of the church is over |
| Dan Irving | Troy Day What are my concerns? If the issue of false teaching in the traditional Pentecostal church has been exhausted, it may be time for chat groups devoted to Pentecostal Theology to sign-off. But, I don’t recall Terry Wiles provided anything like an “end all” statement on the subject. And, if heresy is being tolerated in any traditional Pentecostal denomination, does it not require continuous re-airing? |
| Marc Jackson | Well Terry did provide lots of information about his personal participation in end-all kingdom-now/NAR wide spread in AG. Was it successful and well received – probably not. If of interest I will re-read and summarize the points of the article but at a first glance I did not see anything new AG is doing to prevent the issues you are calling upon… |
| Dan Irving | My concern is this: Denominations are a brand. One could trust when they visited an AG, COG, Southern Baptist, etc., they were entering into a place having doctrinal boundaries and established in a given orthodoxy. (e.g. We like restaurant franchises because we know what to expect.) I think Terry Wiles as much as acknowledged that because of the AG’s philosophy of local control, the AG does not really have control. The unaware/unsuspecting should understand this and be warned. When a credentialed minister of a denomination raises a warning regarding his own denomination, I take that as front-page news. |
| Marc Jackson | Dan Irving I summarized the article in the following 9 points. – I could no make them 10 even if I wanted. No case for dominion theology was made in the article though TV preachers were mentioned that could or could be connected.Article is right for the time period 2005-2015 when the brother left AG IT follows AG right past where we left it with the Florida Revival discussion. Rick Warren and Empower 21 were the major themes that followed in AG after Todd Bently and Michael Brown. – SPS even named a whole annual meeting after Empower 21 much of it to no avail but it was hot topic at the time. So here’s my summary :(1) For me it all starts with the embracing of Rick Warren theology – a non Pentecostal teaching enforced on many Pentecostal churches(2) Empower 21 was a major force at one time just like many other were and then it faded away like many other have (3) Growing churches but not the Kingdom is a numbers game that is not new either. Predominantly American so no global scope or major effect on Global Pentecostalism (4) The Circle Maker book has been also discussed in the group and rejected – nothing new there either http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-circle-maker/(5) Bill Johnson believes (or not) in grave sucking also not news(6) Kenneth Copeland is not AG neither is Brian Houston – WOF and Hillsong old news as well(7) Reinhard Bonnke’s record is impeccable (8) “ The AG actively marketed the “church kit” that Downey was selling which turned over your local church to this miniseries for 12 weeks. Each week they would provide you with a video sermon given by a Christian celebrity to match that week’s episode. †– we have long known of such video tapes and other media sold to AG churches to promote church growth. No such tapes however have been published or found in this group to review SO maybe a point worth exploring further (9) “an impartation of her “teaching anointing and revelation.” Has been in AG and Pentecostalism ever since The only thing new is the confirmation of the “kits” which Terry Wiles said he had knowledge of too but never really seen them. Apparently they do exist and fishing for them continues Joseph D. Absher Auuthor of the article could be invited to shed more light his story and motives What am I missing here in this brief over review that is worth our time in further research? |
| Dan Irving | I see that Mr. Wade’s article was written two years ago. Old News? |
| Marc Jackson | Hardly so. At least not for me. The article covers a very important period of time 2005-2015 right after the crash of the FL revivals which continued AG’s bad list from Fuller-NAR-Wagner in 1999-2002through FL revivals 2005and then the said period with Warren’s purpose driven + emergent churches + multi campus / shepherd2rancher and so on strategies for church growthAs a result PEW forum reports our AG growth but to what cost? It is a valid question that needs to be addressed theologically We need to learn more about the period from the said media / tapes/ manuals and “church kit” which Terry may or may not tell us more aboutI just hope with the church kits we did not lose the Holy GhostBTW you may remember we discussed AG stats were not well prepared, but compared apples to oranges. YES AG is growing but outside of the US. Most states show rapid decline in the past 2-3-5 years all across the US https://religionnews.com/…/southern-baptists-decline…/ |
| Walter Polasik | Troy Day: You run a good FB page. You always seem to introduce very interesting topics. This is one of the major ones. Right off the bat, as an AG man I had to respond. The AG has been in a doctrinal fight between Classical Pentecostals (like George O. Wood, Opal Reddin, evangelist Greg Hubbard or myself) on the one hand and the “New Apostolics” (like Todd Bentley and Mike Bickle) and Crazy Charismatics (like Benny Hinn) on the other. My dad’s own church had a split over this. I’ve been in the AG since 1990. I came to Christ in a Slavic independent Classical Pentecostal church. You make a good, tidy summary of the issues involved. Yes, I’ve never heard anything untoward regarding Bonnke. Warren and the “seeker-friendly” churches are old news. (I doubt the AG’s Division of Foreign Missions will take kindly to Warren’s “Chris-lam” (!!)). Copeland and WOF are old news. The Emergent Church (Brian McLaren, Doug Pagitt, et. al.) should by now be becoming more transparent for the confused Liberals they are. As to videos and kits, these are tools that act as “cheat sheets” for pastors that probably don’t want to do the hard work of praying, study if the Word, preaching and personal evangelism that have always grown the Lord’s church through the ages. And yes, large numbers and congregations are no indicator of the quality of God’s genuine work. |
| Marc Jackson | Walter Polasik Thank you for a kind comment but the topic was introduced by Dan Irving who has made a solid case for it. And though many AGers have tried to deny it this time this one sticks in this group. Because this is a facebook group, not a page, forum, post board or anything else which golden agers here may not know the difference of.As many others who have not been in AG since 90s this post and many others are a shock. But for long time researchers like Dan Irving the terminology is pretty clear – AG mingled with many groups in the 90s WOFthen some Wagner and NARthen some FL revivalists and emerging church – Bently, Brown and more and more others in recent few years 1. they get their ideas2. run them through AG3. anticipate and perhaps gain some growth 4. and then sign them off with a resolution like Resolution #16It is the only way denominations nowadays operate – take someones idea + make a cash bank for it = monetize growth |
| Walter Polasik | Oh yes, forgot to mention church-growth guru (the late) C. Peter Wagner. |
| Marc Jackson | what you mentioned mixed wagners NAR with Bently – read my whole post, pls, for AG Bently and FL revivals was what they used to oppose the influence of NAR and wagner |
| Terry Wiles | Not much here but slander. No knowledge of the AG and no discernment of the Holy Spirit. Yes, There are charlatanes in every group and/or church. The Apostle Paul warned the elders at Ephesus. It’s not that the AG “mingled with many groups.†Many groups mingle with the AG, usually looking for money, power, or fame. They do their harm to the Body of Christ then move on with pockets full and no accountability. May God give us pastors after His own heart. All for soulsTerry Wiles, Bishop |
| Ruth Brigantti | Terry Wiles well said. |
| Walter Polasik | Terry Wiles: For the record, the AG (and as a member and graduate of Evangel University I should know) has a history of “schmoozing” with questionable theologies. From the confusion produced in the popular tent-meeting healing revivals of the ’50’s to Thomas F. Zimmerman’s ecumenizing with the Catholic church in the “Key ’73” evangelization campaign, to G. Raymond Carlson sending “ambassadors” to Rome for more ecumenical “dialogues” to Jesse Miranda signing the ECT document in the ’90’s to Thomas Trask embracing various popular charismatic preachers (including Benny Hinn) to being tolerant of various WOF doctrines like the “hundredfold” teaching of TBN money-man John Avanzini. This isn’t the first time Classical Pentecostals have sparred with the “neos”, the “charismaniacs” within the AG. |
| Nathaniel Rodriguez | Over 40 years ago many if not most AG churches stopped inviting David Wilkerson…the charge…he was too negative…! |
| Joseph D. Absher | How you don’t mind me adding this. I found it the other day. https://youtu.be/dvoAGEZf-nI |
| Dan Irving | Had they invited Dr. Wilkerson into their churches, rather than the “prophetic” crowd, they would have saved many individuals heartbreak and spiritual ruin. |
| Marc Jackson | Well Dan they chose invited ol’ Benny instead ? |
| Walter Polasik | Troy Day: Unless they changed it, AGTS still has the “Benny Hinn” media ministries room in that building. They put it up initially when Hinn briefly joined the AG (no doubt to give himself a patina of legitimacy and the AG a “super star” in their midst). After the doctrinal committee took a closer look at Hinn’s teaching and tried to correct him the “romance” broke, Hinn (oredictably) pulled out and the AG was stuck “feeling salty”. 😇 |
| Kevin Wayne | My parents spent 20 out of the last 25 years of their lives in the AOG. Only to have the church they helped build taken from them by some control freak who likes to Beat the Sheep from the pulpit. I would never have bothered with them. I preferred the Foursquare church we attended when I was a teenager. Even better was Calvary Chapel which I found in my adult years, but we’re not doctrinally on the same page anymore. |
| Marc Jackson | Terry Are you referring to the article or the discussion? Those “training kits” keep on coming back dont they? Now I may have not written Resolution 16 but I was very much part of Empower 21 and can assure the article is spot on for that… |
| Terry Wiles | Resolution 16 was tabled which effectively kills a resolution for either the purpose of doing Away with it or revising it. It was revised in committee and then adopted as a “white paper†by the executives. Later it was finalized as a position paper where it gives guidance to extreme doctrines and/or movements. That is where it stands today. The AG is, in my opinion, being unfairly attacked in this thread. They have always strongly encouraged solid biblical teaching emphasizing the Baptism in the Holy Spirit for the enduement of power from on high. At the executive level this is especially true with a high standard set and proper discipline brought to its’ cred holders who go into error. |
| Marc Jackson | So people asking questions is considered an unfair attack? |
| Terry Wiles | Troy Day No. But laying charges is. |
| Terry Wiles | As an example is this quote:“…AG mingled with many groups in the 90s WOF then some Wagner and NARthen some FL revivalists and emerging church – Bently, Brown and more and more others in recent few years 1. they get their ideas2. run them through AG3. anticipate and perhaps gain some growth 4. and then sign them off with a resolution like Resolution #16It is the only way denominations nowadays operate – take someones idea + make a cash bank for it = monetize growth.â€It is true many churches bought into the nonsense but the AG itself worked to correct it as did Wimber with Toronto. The cash cow only worked for the circus promoters. But eventually all error comes to an end. Today we live in an age where truth (sound doctrine) has fallen into the street and churches gain numbers by hype rather than Holy Spirit convicting/transforming preaching. It’s a scary thing for those of us called to preach the word,(sometimes through music, other times through word and signs following). Ultimately we are accountable.My point is the responsibility lays at the feet of the man or woman called of God to preach the word and shepherd the flock that God has given oversight of. |
| Marc Jackson | Well seems like you are not disagreeing with what’s said making it not a slander but a correct observation. Sure, it is straight forward but the brief format of internet communication does not give us much room to go into a theological debt. Yet, all points listed have been well discussed in this group. Slander is a strong accusation to the truth being spoken. I hope we are all searching for the truth here (and the revival kits which seem more and more that AG distributed back then). Now I was not at the closed discussions of Resolution 16 but I was @ the Empower 21 SPS where Dr. Byron Klaus said the faithful words “remain critically loyal to the denomination.” With this said, there is more than one and two in this group that have invested several family generations in the work of AG and have deserved to be heard even if not liked by all. |
| Terry Wiles | Troy Day. Agreed. However, words become slanderous when they point at things that have nothing to do with the charged entity. “AG†is a collective noun that commonly refers to the organization as a whole. To my knowledge the “AG†never produced nor distributed revival kits nor endorsed the content of any. And the “AG†never profited from any such material. That is most likely the reason they are so difficult to come by. Other organizations or individuals did produce manual and or instruction videos. Some of them were products of Toronto, Brownsville, Lakeland, the school of revival, etc.. they were produced by a variety of speakers, teachers, and or self proclaimed prophets. The basic idea was that every person could reproduce the manifestations and generate an end time revival that would hasten Christ’s return. Like any pyramid scheme the leaders drew the crowds and took in lots of money. But the end result was division and confusion which is a clear sign there was little from God and little that lasted. My opinion is different believing every generation is responsible for reaching the lost at its door steps. For that we need continuous outpourings of the Holy Spirit. But few want to seek the giver of the gift. They seek after the signs. In the age of social media there are many who are willing to produce signs and even more who run to purchase their potions of fake oil. |
| Marc Jackson | IMO you just confirmed everything I wrote thus making it not slanderous but truth confirmed from 2-3 witnesses. I think you are also well aware of AG heavily involve in all of the listed events and movements for the said reasons. Wagner is in AG sponsored publications till 2002, the kits of which you now show avid knowledge are a fact, and so on and so on It just proves my point Check the link – who is the Global co-chair http://empowered21.com/about/leadership/ |
| Terry Wiles | Troy Day Interesting list. And interesting objectives. |
| Walter Polasik | Terry Wiles: Sometimes these threads go long and I skim through them. Your reply to Troy above, though, is very thoughtful. Obviously if I believed the Assemblies of God as a whole were going bad I wouldn’t still be a part of it. But you’re right, there sure have been a lot of “hype-sters” and opportunists who have “crept in unawares” (Jude 1:4) into our midst and have peddled unbiblical things in the name of the Spirit. You are so right that we need “fresh outpourings of the Holy Spirit” and to “seek the Giver” instead of just the Gifts. |
| Marc Jackson | Walter Polasik are you saying that you too agree with the claim made above that this thread is slanderous and lying charges? |
| Marc Jackson | This question Walter Polasik |
| Walter Polasik | No, I never said such a thing. I DID say that the AG has had issues it needs to work on but it’s not gotten so bad that I’m pulling membership. |
| Marc Jackson | So do you agree with the claim made above that this thread is slanderous and lying charges? Walter Polasik |
| Walter Polasik | Troy Day: I agree that you like to beat dead horses. 😇 |
| Marc Jackson | The claim claim after information you posted in the thread So it is naturally to ask if you agree with the claim? |
| Walter Polasik | Troy Day: Can we get back to theology instead of you asking whether I was lead to believe that a sharpened pencil has a point and makes one? |
| Marc Jackson | Sure but after you answer the question There has been requests to delete the post of Dan Irving on the said claims after what you posted. It is imperative the issue is resolved promptly |
| Dan Irving | Troy Day, I am surprised we have censors. Are you aware of the legal definition of “slander?” Are some subjects off limits because they hit too close to home for some? |
| Marc Jackson | Dan Irving did you read above where the case for that was made? |
| Dan Irving | Troy Day, The statement, “Not much here but slander. No knowledge of the AG and no discernment of the Holy Spirit” is hardly a “case.” |
| Walter Polasik | Troy Day: So, what exactly are you advocating? That decent people in the AG “jump ship” and join the Church of God? |
| Marc Jackson | I was just asking you the question you’ve avoided to answer for a week now |
| Dan Irving | Walter Polasik, Nothing of the sort. |
| Marc Jackson | There was another allegation to slander above Dan Irving |
| Dan Irving | Troy Day, You must be referring to: “words become slanderous when they point at things that have nothing to do with the charged entity.” If that’s a categorical denial of any veracity to the article, it would contradict Terry’s earlier statements to the effect bad things were/are allowed to encroach into AG assemblies due to the fact it is a loose affiliation of ministries, rather than a traditional denominational structure (if I understood him correctly.) If so, the matter should be rendered very clear, that when a seeker enters an AG assembly they should not presume upon its orthodoxy in doctrine, practice, nor the potential for its association with aberrant ministries and organizations. The seeker should be warned against the assumption that by walking into McDonald’s they will get a Big Mac. It’s called . . Sunlight. |
| Hank Becker | Where do you live , have you pastored I the A O G Have you checked out the Church of God of Prophecy |
| Joseph D. Absher | Pronouncing the death of the NFL in 2018 will be an easy one to follow. I do think they have significantly deminished there brand. But football will remain a vital part of the fabric of our culture. It does teach valuable skills. Teamwork, leadership, mentoring, execution, aggression, seizing the opportunity, and many other things we hold as manly traits. Unfortunately it is a time consuming diversion for the church and in some cases idolatry. If this was given last year it would have been more forthtelling than at the end of a bad season. |
| Walter Polasik | Joseph D. Absher: Sure football teaches those, but that’s not the only place to get those qualities. In fact there are better places. Football also teaches the “jock” culture, that athletic and good-looking guys should take all the girls and not intelligent, creative and perhaps not so athletic guys. It teaches that popularity is one key to success. It teaches vanity, pride, and arrogance. Are you sure those are the qualities you want Christian young men to learn? When I was a student at Evangel University (Assemblies of God) I knew a football player who also served on a children’s ministry team while at the same time bounced a different cheerleader on his knees each week. Hypocrisy like that I saw too much of. No thanks, Satan can play football in hell for all I care! |
| Walter Polasik | It’s truth, not bias. Wake up! |
| Joseph D. Absher | I’m praying for you. You got church hurt. You high school hurt. You got girl hurt. Man you’re hurting all over. |
| Walter Polasik | As a matter of fact I am. That too is life. |
| Marc Jackson | Walter Polasik I see you are not answering my questions anymore |
| Joseph D. Absher | I know you are very capable. Isn’t there some release in worship. Worship to God has always helped me focus on the things that really matter. I truly am concerned for you. Some of the language you use is unfortunate for a scholar. i.e. Chick, I’m really at a loss. I deleted my remarks about your statements on high school football because I think they are stereo types. Trust me not every football player is good looking lol but I understand some stereo types often have a bit of truth. I have no desire to harm you in anyway so I deleted it. God bless you brother. I mean that. Sure life is tough and full of hurt but each and every one of them is an occasion to seek God and speak of his healing grace. |
| Walter Polasik | Troy Day: I’m sorry, which questions? |
| Marc Jackson | The ones you always ask me to repeat… |
| Walter Polasik | Troy Day: I’m sorry, I DO have a life outside of FB. I like to drop in and love to interact with you guys but. . . you know how long some of those threads get, right? |
| Marc Jackson | aha seems you life outside is to avoid the actual question even after you asked what it was and after you are pointed to them specifically ? Walter Polasik |
| Walter Polasik | Troy Day: You’re playing with my head using liberal accusation tactics. |
| Marc Jackson | No not really Just 2 clicks up Walter Polasik https://www.facebook.com/…/permalink/1597682476953428/… |
| Link Hudson | I spent my teenage years very much involved in the A/G, doing Bible Quiz, going to church night after night. I went to other churches later, but I’ve dropped in on A/G’s from time to time and have been going to one recently. I’m not sure why he is concerned about Jentzen Franklin, other than the fact that he is now a celebrity and mega-church pastor. I don’t know why he condemns all the preachers he does in his list of preachers. But I don’t keep up with whose who in the US and Europe and what they are doing. I understand the concerns about WOF teaching. That’s been an issue in the A/G at least since the 1980s. What I’ve seen of Bonnke is very Pentecostal preaching. Is his claiming the dead have been raised in his meetings your sole basis for condemning him? Raising the dead is a Biblical thing. One of my concerns with A/Gs in the US is the following formula for evangelism, which was common with Foursquare’s I’ve seen.- Don’t tell the audience who Jesus is.- Don’t tell them who God is.- Don’t tell them what Jesus did on the cross.- Don’t explain forgiveness.- Don’t tell them that Jesus rose from the dead.Then have them repeat some prayer that mentions the name of Jesus, and declare them saved without ever having even heard the Gospel. The idea that you can declare someone saved just for repeating a prayer, even if you have preached the Gospel to them, without their having faith and repentance is terrible enough. Yet it seems the norm in certain streams of evangelical churches, including many of the Pentecostal ones. I wanted to comment on the blog but the instructions are as clear as mud. |
| Daniel J Hesse | We survive by our morphing into whatever in response to whomever and we wonder wherever. |
- OCTOBER 16, 2017
Denominations are nice. It’s like a franchise. There is some variation but you know what you’re going to get. Churches that are not ‘aligned’ can have more freedom but can get off track with doctrine or worse licentiousness.
I always say the church will taken on the character of the pastor. If he’s kind, honors God loves people isnt ashamed to get on the floor and pray the congregation will grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord. If the pastor is mean and stingy the people will be cold and heartless. Generally speaking of course…
OCTOBER 19, 2017
Biblical denominations are those which faithfully preach and teach God’s Word and practice the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Others which go off on a tangent into false doctrine, leaving their “first love,” replacing sound doctrine with doctrines of men, must be rejected.
OCTOBER 19, 2017
Paul Hughes This is not even what the “Death of Denominations” article in The Progressive Christian Nov/Dec 2008 is about
Anglican Communion suspending the Episcopal Church reminds of this study on the “Death of Denominations” in the TPCmagazine.org The Progressive Christian Magazine – a pluralistic, ecumenical magazine with articles that are willing to “foster vigorous dialogue and debate” and “challenge conventional wisdom” http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/death-of-denominations/
AUGUST 23, 2019
From the Bible facts, no one can prove the assertion that Jesus did not intend denominations. Rather, denominations are implied by Christ’s command to “go and make disciples,” and by Paul in his many admonitions to deliver to people his specific doctrine, and what he generally called “my Gospel.” It was intended that converts stay in the main stream of apostolic teaching and authority, and not drift off after this or that new teacher or new “gospel.” Paul warned the Ephesian church,
Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. 31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.
Moreover, the spirit of independence is often born of schism, which Paul deprecated, see Rom 16:17, 1 Cor 1:10, 3:3, 11:18.
AUGUST 23, 2019
Denominations are man-made dogmas, including oneness, twoness, and threeness. GOD only said, be HOLY.
AUGUST 23, 2019
Are denominations Biblical? If so, where do we see them as nadated by God in the NT, and if not, how can the existence of them today among Bible-following Christian groups be justified? Finally what proposals can be made to remedy the current situation in Christendom? Philip Williams RichardAnna Boyce
I notice no one seems to want to engage in my question. It might cut a little too close to the bone maybe? Pastors who make their living from a “tythe” and who would loose their livelihood if they came “out” of their denomination have indeed life changing choices to make. But it’s worth it if it means following our Lord’s leading. Many protestant pastors have lost materially when they returned to the Catholic Church. I’d already lost everything many years before. My prayer is that those whom the Holy Spirit is speaking to – and I am convinced that their are some, possibly lurkers here- will have the courage to come out of the confusion that Martin Luther launched. Yes – the Catholic Church needed renewal – but the way St Francis did it before him – not the divisive manner of Luther.
AUGUST 23, 2019
i have a vested interest as i go to a non denominational pentecostal church. Biblically apostles letters were sent to the saints at Ephesus etc; or maybe saints at 1st st , 2nd st, 3rd st etc.
AUGUST 23, 2019
non denominational pentecostal is an oxymoron and probably full with heretical teachings
AUGUST 23, 2019
Troy Day we read the Bible for all it is worth according to AOG Gordon Fee, and not according to denominational bias. We earn rewards in the Millennium for faithfulness to Holy Spirit teaching not denominational teaching.
AUGUST 23, 2019
There is nowhere in the HOLY SCRIPTURE and so-called denomination, No Apostolic, no Pentecostal, no Baptist None.
AUGUST 23, 2019
GOD said be HOLY!!!
AUGUST 23, 2019
Dogmas will send all people to the pit.
AUGUST 23, 2019
AGAIN I do not see anything in the NT upholding denominations. However, I do see examples of NT leaders keeping each other accountable. In that regard, denominations are a good thing. My opinion is that without denominations, we would have a lot more issue with rogue pastors grossly distorting the Gospel.
I am not well versed in the history of denominations but I would hope that the structure or concept pf denominations started with the same idea as Paul guiding the different churches as described through the NT.
AUGUST 23, 2019
GOD said, Matthew 16:17-18 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
AUGUST 23, 2019
Denominations are theologies of men, not GOD.
AUGUST 23, 2019
Denis Herve Mercier This is not even what the “Death of Denominations” article in The Progressive Christian Nov/Dec 2008 is about
I;ve discussed with William DeArteaga prior the
Anglican Communion suspending the Episcopal Church which reminds of this study on the “Death of Denominations” in the TPCmagazine.org The Progressive Christian Magazine – a pluralistic, ecumenical magazine with articles that are willing to “foster vigorous dialogue and debate” and “challenge conventional wisdom” http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/death-of-denominations/
AUGUST 23, 2019
Each denomination has it owe way to get to heaven. JESUS said John 14:6
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. JESUS also said John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. SO GOD said to be Holy.
AUGUST 23, 2019
There is no good Denomination, not one.
AUGUST 23, 2019
ONE church not two or a thousand churches. We are in HIS Church or in a man-made church.
AUGUST 23, 2019
2 Corinthians 6:17
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. So obey GOD.
AUGUST 23, 2019
I did, Once JESUS opened my heart to HIS truth, I came out of her, the whore churches.
AUGUST 23, 2019
False teachers, Pastors knows the bible inside out but still lost.
AUGUST 23, 2019
The devil knows the Scriptures too, where is he going.
AUGUST 23, 2019
Baptist has some truth, oneness Pentecostals have some truth, trinity Pentecostals have some truth. But JESUS has all truth!!! Come out of these devil churches you are in.
AUGUST 23, 2019
So what should all of you do Repent, come out JESUS said.
AUGUST 23, 2019
so whats your REAL point? Denis Herve Mercier
AUGUST 23, 2019
They exist for professional clergy, which seems as much problem as denominations, where power corrupts.
AUGUST 23, 2019
AUGUST 23, 2019
GOD never said that we should all go to where we like the teachings of men theology. Point Denominations were started by the devil himself, to confuse the church people like he the devil did Eve.
AUGUST 23, 2019
Ephesians 4:5
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
AUGUST 23, 2019
Above said One LORD, who is JESUS, One faith we must all believe the bible way alike, One baptism, not two or three ways.
AUGUST 23, 2019
1 Peter 1:15-16
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
Leviticus 20:26
26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the Lord am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.
AUGUST 23, 2019
John 5:39-40 3
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
AUGUST 23, 2019
Even if you receive the HOLY GHOST and are baptized in the Name of JESUS CHRIST, it does not guarantee we make it to heaven.
AUGUST 23, 2019
What happened no one fears the LORD our GOD anymore. So people do what they want, go to any false denomination church and wake up in hell. for being in a lie.
AUGUST 23, 2019
Isaiah 56:10-11
10 His watchmen are blind: they are all ignorant, they are all dumb dogs, they cannot bark; sleeping, lying down, loving to slumber.
11 Yea, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand: they all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter.
Jeremiah 23:1
23 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord.
AUGUST 23, 2019
Leviticus 15:31 (KJV)
31 Thus shall ye separate the children of Israel from their uncleanness; that they die not in their uncleanness, when they defile my tabernacle that is among them.
2 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV)
17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
AUGUST 23, 2019
Denis Herve Mercier not sure that what you are saying relates to death of denomin. from OP
AUGUST 23, 2019
Troy Day
The DEAD KNOW NOTHING…
As it is to men so is to DENOMINATIONS..
AUGUST 23, 2019
DEAD CHURCH WALKING
AUGUST 23, 2019
Troy Day
We were DEAD in our transgressions before being saved..and yet we WALKED.
Yes, DEAD and walking and talking and teaching and worshiping “God” t
AUGUST 23, 2019
Troy Day
Brother Day may i be a bit bolder in my assertions..
The Pharicees and Saduceees and teachers of the law and elders in Jesus time DIED..
But the same spirits are alive today and kicking in DENOMINATIONS..
Paul lamented about this kind of people..
//For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.
Romans 10:2//
AUGUST 23, 2019
//They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’ ”
Matthew 15:9 NIV//
When teachings and worship.have human.foundations what should the righteous do?
Turn to Jesus who is the TRUTH..
AUGUST 23, 2019
//And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.
I Corinthians 2:4-5 //
Pursuasive human preaching teaching and wisdom existed during Pauls time…
It forms a greater percentage of teachings and preachings in Chritendom today…eloquence, brillliance, intelligent presentation of the WORD in the form of denominations but LACKING power..
Jesus promised POWER and the disciplies received it and demonstrated it…
The writer of the above epistle who came into the scene later also proved the Lord Jesus was truth by a message and a demonstration of power..
Who silenced the Spirit of the Lord, who blocked Him, who put Him.in a corner, who restrains Him…
Human wisdom and rules and instructions and revelations…
When people chose to LEAD THEMSELVES instead of being LED the consquences are DEATH…
AUGUST 23, 2019
A demonstration of the SPIRIT and POWER…
Jesus was the embodiment of this(Acts 10:38 …how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and POWER…)
So were the aposles..Paul inclusive..
Religion is salvation without the Holy Spirit and Power…
The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of Life in Christ.
How can a church have a Spirit of Life and at the same time manifest death?…
AUGUST 23, 2019
If I remember correctly, in Acts we see the first denominational split which brought about the Council of Jerusalem.
AUGUST 23, 2019
Are there any denominations that openly claim that joining them results in salvation??
AUGUST 23, 2019
the catholic church? Philip Williams
AUGUST 24, 2019
Rick Ferguson the catholic church? Philip Williams
AUGUST 24, 2019
Troy Day that’s not a denomination. That’s a totally different religion.
AUGUST 24, 2019
Rick Ferguson the catholic church is not a denomination ? Philip Williams may strongly differ here
AUGUST 25, 2019
Philip Williams is the catholic denomination dying ?
DECEMBER 7, 2019
WHAT do you think Doyle Rogers Tony Barron do yall have the answer as for the rest of us today… ?
DECEMBER 7, 2019
GOSPEL ACCORDING TO PROPHECY vs.
GOSPEL ACCORDING TO THE MYSTERY
The 12 disciples preached “the gospel of Jesus Christ” according to PROPHECY.
Whereas, apostle Paul preached “the gospel of Christ” according to the MYSTERY.
Mark wrote according to PROPHECY,
Mr 1:1-2 KJV: “The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; AS IT IS WRITTEN IN THE PROPHETS,”
Paul wrote according to the MYSTERY,
Ro 16:25 KJV: “Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, ACCORDING TO THE REVELATION OF THE MYSTERY, which was kept secret since the world began,”
We KNOW the gospel Mark preached was NOT the same gospel Paul preached because we can READ Mark 1:1-2 and we know that Paul received FURTHER revelation from the ASCENDED Lord Jesus Christ that was kept secret until God later FIRST revealed it to Paul (see Eph 3:1-10 KJV).
And, if you want to deny what Paul teaches in Ephesians 3:1-10 KJV, YOU ARE NOT A KJV BIBLE BELIEVER. PERIOD.
The gospel of Christ that saves today, the gospel of Christ that Paul preached, CANNOT BE FOUND OUTSIDE OF ROMANS THRU PHILEMON, KJV.
Paul is the only person that preached a gospel of FAITH without works for salvation.
The “gospel of Christ” according to the MYSTERY, is a distinct gospel that Jesus, from heaven, FIRST gave exclusively to apostle Paul. Paul’s gospel of Christ is a unique gospel in that works of any kind is completely EXCLUDED. Paul’s gospel of Christ states we are saved by God’s GRACE and mercy through faith. Paul’s gospel of Christ is BELIEVE plus nothing. Paul’s gospel of Christ also reveals the forgiveness of all sins the moment a person believes 1Cor 15:1-4, how that Christ DIED FOR OUR SINS, was buried, and rose again the third day. You simply won’t find all those aspects of the gospel of Christ anywhere outside of Paul’s writings, which are contained in Romans thru Philemon, KJV.
The “gospel of Jesus Christ” according to PROPHECY included repent and be water baptized. Whereas, Paul’s “gospel of Christ” DID NOT include water baptism, nor does Paul ever say that we must repent to be saved. On the contrary, Paul emphasizes that we must simply BELIEVE the gospel without works for salvation by Grace. And, he even warned us that if we add the works of the Law to his grace “gospel of Christ” that faith is made void, the cross and the promise made of none effect, the reward is NOT reckoned of grace but of debt. Paul says that if it be of works it is NO MORE GRACE.
Paul wrote,
1Co 1:17 KJV: “For Christ sent me NOT to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be MADE OF NONE EFFECT.”
Ro 4:14 KJV: “For if they which are of the law be heirs, FAITH IS MADE VOID, and the PROMISE MADE OF NONE EFFECT:”
Ro 4:4 KJV: “Now to him that worketh is the reward NOT RECKONED OF GRACE, but of debt.”
Ro 4:5 KJV: “But to him that WORKETH NOT, BUT BELIEVETH ON HIM that justifieth the ungodly, HIS FAITH IS COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.”
Eph 2:8-9 KJV: “For BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the GIFT of God: [9] NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.”
Ro 11:6 KJV: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But IF IT BE OF WORKS, THEN IS IT NO MORE GRACE:”
Ro 10:4 KJV: “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness TO EVERY ONE THAT BELIEVETH.”
Eph 1:13 KJV: “In whom ye also TRUSTED, after that ye HEARD the word of truth, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION: in whom also after that YE BELIEVED, YE WERE SEALED with that holy Spirit of promise,”
Be a KJV Bible believer!
Don’t deny what God has clearly SEPARATED in His word of truth.
Don’t deny the true gospel message that saves today!
People’s souls are at stake!
Put your pride in your denomination aside and seek the TRUTH of God’s word AS IT IS WRITTEN, rightly dividing the word of truth.
________________________
Watch this video sermon …
JESUS WAS A DISPENSATIONALIST – (48-min Video) – by Ray Keable – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thvBE1U6ol4
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Tony Barron Paul preached the faith he once destroyed. That was Peters faith. Paul here states the faith he preached is the same faith that was being preached before his conversion. He was not preaching anything different
Galatians 1:23
23 But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Rick Ferguson
Well how do you explain Peter’s statement here about Paul if Paul destroyed the faith? By the way Galatians is written by Paul who is preaching the faith yet he is not the one that destroyed it…hes speaking of his old man Saul who was converted on the road to Damascus and God named him Paul because the old man Saul died at the cross with Christ when God changed him so get real and fact… Paul has the most books in the Bible, yet he is silenced. Futhermore explain Peter’s statement if they are both preaching the same gospel.
2 Peter 3:15-16 Authorized (King James) Version.
15. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16. As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Tony Barron unfortunately I’m too busy to post a lot now but Paul said he was the one who previously destroyed the faith, you said he didn’t. Paul was the one who said he preached the same faith he had once destroyed, you said he didn’t. That’s twice already you have disagreed with Paul so your argument is with him not me. My belief system doesn’t require me to ignore, reject, or discredit any verses. Yours does apparently
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Rick Ferguson
Think about it when you’re saved your made a new creature in Christ, the baptism that matters is not water….the baptism that matters is 1 Corinthians 12:13, open your Bible and observe for your self what the scripture saith. And apply 1 Corinthians 12:13 to Romans chapter 6. And I pray the Lord opens your eyes, when Saul was blinded by the light on the road to Damascus God severed the flesh from the spirit, and baptized him with the Holy Ghost into the body of Christ and gave him a new name and imputed righteousness to Paul for believing. Question.
Do you think God forgot about that lie you told your father that one Saturday?
13 epistles Paul wrote, who wrote more doctrine than Paul? Why does everyone disregard Romans 11:13? What about Romans 2:16? What closet sins will manifest on the day of judgment?
John 3:20 Authorized (King James) Version.
20. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
DECEMBER 7, 2019
I am so glad I am a part of the Assemblies of God!
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Since the beginning of the 21st century, only 6-10% of new born believers in America receive the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, which by 2018 has resulted in:Over 60% within Global Pentecostalism do not speak in tongues
A major doctrinal shift within Pentecostal Theology today claims speaking in tongues is not the only evidence of Holy Spirit Baptism
Some theologians even claim there is no initial evidence in the Bible
Others today go further to believe that no outward sign of the Holy Spirit baptism is necessary.
what is the answer to this dilemma then? — revival and restoration of the Pentecostal Message through praying, fasting and preaching:Salvation of the sinner’s soul and entire sanctification through the Blood of Jesus
Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire with initial evidence of speaking in tongues
Supernatural gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit
Healing, deliverance and signs following
Pre-Millennial return of Christ and pre-Tribulation Rapture of His Church to glory
Please consider the URGENCY of this generation!Let us reason together what can we do to prevent this rapid decline in Biblical spirituality. Joe Absher Peter Vandever Daniel J Hesse Alan Smith
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Troy Day Azusa report has an article quoting Darren on this
DECEMBER 8, 2019
Peter Vandever I cant ever open those sites My spam malware blocker marks them as harmful or spam cliicks Who is Darren – the text I quoted is from our own source
DECEMBER 7, 2019
A non denominational Pentecostal is not a Pentecostal. Technically, They’re a charismatic.
Denominations are like surnames. They’re family groupings. And I love the IPHC which is where God has placed me. And I love the whole body of Christ.
Including those of an independent Spirit!
DECEMBER 7, 2019
this is pretty wrong if you ask me @ Azusa they were of NO denomination ? which denomination were they from @ Azusa? Guess we need to grow out of the status quo
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Troy Day the people from IPHC (and other similar groups) were already part of denominations before Azusa. And God swept those denominations into Pentecostalism.
DECEMBER 7, 2019
It was in general, the non-Wesleyan side of Pentecostals who went on to form the AOG and other such groups.
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Troy Day see Vinson synans book on the topic.
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Chris Friend you didnt answer my question What denomination were they @ Azusa? IPHC was established about 5yrs after Azusa on January 30, 1911 in Falcon, NC
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Troy Day
The first congregation to carry the name Pentecostal Holiness Church was formed in Goldsboro, North Carolina in 1898. This church was founded as a result of the evangelistic ministry of Abner Blackmon Crumpler, a Methodist evangelist.
First convention (think denominational gathering) was in 1900.
1911 is a merger date.
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Vinson Synan is the preeminent Pentecostal historian. He says half of all holiness denominations that existed in the USA then came into Pentecostalism through what we know as the Azusa st revival.
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Troy Day do you want books and page numbers? There is plenty of good resource out there (using eye witness accounts) to help us see what God did. We don’t need to twist the history to suit any bias against denominations.
DECEMBER 7, 2019
Chris Friend disagree. Eddie Hyatt is the Pentecostal historian
DECEMBER 7, 2019
only churches should be JESUS CHURCH on 1st st, 2nd st, 3rd st etc
DECEMBER 7, 2019
https://azusareport.com/darrin-rodgers-assemblies-god-stats/
DECEMBER 7, 2019
If a church grows and multiplies it will eventually be called a denomination.
DECEMBER 8, 2019
what about thousands of non-denomin. that grow and multiply without any denominational calling?
DECEMBER 7, 2019
When your church leaders cease to be church planters and become administrators then the “denomination” starts dying and it is not truly biblical. That is my opinion.
DECEMBER 8, 2019
this may be about right IDK but we will see
DECEMBER 8, 2019
DECEMBER 8, 2019
patheos is bad news – whats with the link
DECEMBER 8, 2019
Chris Friend of course they were part of denominations they EXITED in order for Azusa to happen Which denomination was Parham in 1906-1909? What about Seymour who rejected all denominations What about Bartleman who refused to join ANY of the new Pentecostal denominations formed out of Azusa after 1909? They wernt part of denominations ? who are you kidding here?
DECEMBER 8, 2019
Peter Vandever I could not find the link to the AG article you pointed to HOWEVER the discussion on the false AG growth stats is taken DIRECTLY from our website
Back when the 2017 AG growth boom was in the news we did a dozen of stat articles and discussions looking into it The series showed the growth was OUTSIDE of the US mainly international churches that are part of the fellowship but are not really AG Springfield – more of a grass root growth type of thing rather than denominational strategy
We further we able to foresee in the discussions that AG will stop the acclaimed growth within 1-2 yrs or basically their research cycle time frame And so it happened Just look at their 2019 stats where they have 300 more churches closing than opening per capita You can dig the discussions and check them out from the archive We had some ppl from the West joining in, several regional superintedants authors of AG fundamental documents like Resolution 16 and others joining who at the end had to admit Growth was international and was no more
AG’s response on the stats was expected as our discussions reached Springfield and further. Guess they were read at a higher level than we anticipated at first. The response was loosely based on a fragment study done by a well known Eastern European theologian who showed 25 year revival cycles taking place in EU Pentecostalism His theoretix was taken and applied to the US AG but obviously by 2019 the stats show sudden decline in churches. I am not sure HOW the rest of the church stats were taken as conversion was nowhere defined in the stats, infilling with the Spirit was counted with or without speaking in tongues and AG does not report sanctification so when they say MEMBERSHIP that reflects ppl taken into the church NOT newly saved/converted or disciplined…. Just something to think about in times as such
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse Neil Steven Lawrence Joe Absher Are denominations Biblical? If so, where do we see them as nadated by God in the NT, and if not, how can the existence of them today among Bible-following Christian groups be justified? Finally what proposals can be made to remedy the current situation in Christendom?
deceased person covered in a sheet with a blank toe tag.
Since the beginning of the 21st century, only 6-10% of new born believers in America receive the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, which by 2018 has resulted in:Over 60% within Global Pentecostalism do not speak in tongues
A major doctrinal shift within Pentecostal Theology today claims speaking in tongues is not the only evidence of Holy Spirit Baptism
Some theologians even claim there is no initial evidence in the Bible
Others today go further to believe that no outward sign of the Holy Spirit baptism is necessary.
what is the answer to this dilemma then? — revival and restoration of the Pentecostal Message through praying, fasting and preaching:Salvation of the sinner’s soul and entire sanctification through the Blood of Jesus
Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire with initial evidence of speaking in tongues
Supernatural gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit
Healing, deliverance and signs following
Pre-Millennial return of Christ and pre-Tribulation Rapture of His Church to glory
Please consider the URGENCY of this generation!Let us reason together what can we do to prevent this rapid decline in Biblical spirituality
Joe Absher
Denomination is neccessary as structure even if it borders on sectarianism . it does offer a standard and a statement of faith . these are what lend themselves to safety and stability and growth in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ .
But as I’ve said many times and what for me is most important . can you trust the pastor .
Varnel Watson
Peter Vandever about your previous post or 2 that I just read somewhere but cant find now… I could not find the link to the AG article you pointed to HOWEVER the discussion on the false AG growth stats is taken DIRECTLY from our website
Back when the 2017 AG growth boom was in the news we did a dozen of stat articles and discussions looking into it The series showed the growth was OUTSIDE of the US mainly international churches that are part of the fellowship but are not really AG Springfield – more of a grass root growth type of thing rather than denominational strategy
We further we able to foresee in the discussions that AG will stop the acclaimed growth within 1-2 yrs or basically their research cycle time frame And so it happened Just look at their 2019 stats where they have 300 more churches closing than opening per capita You can dig the discussions and check them out from the archive We had some ppl from the West joining in, several regional superintedants authors of AG fundamental documents like Resolution 16 and others joining who at the end had to admit Growth was international and was no more
AG’s response on the stats was expected as our discussions reached Springfield and further. Guess they were read at a higher level than we anticipated at first. The response was loosely based on a fragment study done by a well known Eastern European theologian who showed 25 year revival cycles taking place in EU Pentecostalism His theoretix was taken and applied to the US AG but obviously by 2019 the stats show sudden decline in churches. I am not sure HOW the rest of the church stats were taken as conversion was nowhere defined in the stats, infilling with the Spirit was counted with or without speaking in tongues and AG does not report sanctification so when they say MEMBERSHIP that reflects ppl taken into the church NOT newly saved/converted or disciplined…. Just something to think about in times as such http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/death-of-denominations/
Susan Collins
Maybe not biblical but maybe practical in the world we live in with so much law suits, disorder etc.
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse Peter Vandever these are NOT AG specific stats and Springfield is not their source I am not sure how the azusa reporting came into the discussion with AG specifics as we were not able to confirm their conversations in any way to be official denomination reports. The AG stats show decline since 2017 especially in 2019 current for congregation membership within the US
Since the beginning of the 21st century, only 6-10% of new born believers in America receive the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, which by 2018 has resulted in:Over 60% within Global Pentecostalism do not speak in tongues
A major doctrinal shift within Pentecostal Theology today claims speaking in tongues is not the only evidence of Holy Spirit Baptism
Some theologians even claim there is no initial evidence in the Bible
Others today go further to believe that no outward sign of the Holy Spirit baptism is necessary.
what is the answer to this dilemma then? — revival and restoration of the Pentecostal Message through praying, fasting and preaching:Salvation of the sinner’s soul and entire sanctification through the Blood of Jesus
Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire with initial evidence of speaking in tongues
Supernatural gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit
Healing, deliverance and signs following
Pre-Millennial return of Christ and pre-Tribulation Rapture of His Church to glory
Please consider the URGENCY of this generation!Let us reason together what can we do to prevent this rapid decline in Biblical spirituality
Varnel Watson
is THIS view TOO critical Henry Volk Ray E Horton
Isara Mo
Did the apostles have a denomination?
Varnel Watson
YES – the apostolic denomination Where have you been
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Where is the succession to the apostolic denomination?.
Onesness?.
Pentecostal?
Baptist?
Anglican?.
Catholic?.
Jehova Witness?.
Mormons?…
….
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo RCH- you tell us…
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Troy I don’t belong to ANY DENOMINATION..
Do you think when heaven comes to earth I will miss my seat?
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo everyone belongs to something IMO
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Is that the the spiritual status quo?
Let’s wait and see..
Isara Mo
Does God have a demonization?
Varnel Watson
he sure does – most demons in the BIBLE were sent by GOD you know …
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Brother you are very observant.. Very.
One mistake two goals..
Does God have a DENOM(DEMON) I NATION?
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo God has certainly sent demons in nations Is this what you are asking again and again?
Terry Fischer
The first attempt at denominationalism is in Mark 9:38, “Now John answered him saying, Teacher, we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in Your name and we forbade him because he does not follow of us”
Varnel Watson
Terry Fischer can you be more specific and elaborate HOW what you cited related to this OP please //THANKS
Terry Fischer
The disciples were insisting that these other believers follow them. They were unknowingly making a distinction between them and the others.
Varnel Watson
thank you sweet Terry but ACTS hardly resembles the centralized government of organized religious today Thank you
Terry Fischer
I made no mention of acts
Varnel Watson
well sweet Terry where else do we find those?
Terry Fischer
Those what, (By the way, I am a guy, not a sweet gal
Varnel Watson
is bitter Terry better ?
Joseph Reeder
No. Until the 1500’s, there was only One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. Every other denomination came from rebellion and discord.
Gerardo de Dominicis
Joseph Reeder wrong. What about the orthodox churches? The Assyrian churches? The Coptic church? The Ethiopian church? Etc. Romanism is and was only a sect among many others.
Jerry Lawson
Joseph Reeder “Every other denomination came out of rebellion and fear.” Not true. Most denominations actually came out of revival. Now, most have come FAR away from those roots today. But they did not start out of division in most cases. That’s just not factually accurate.
Tim Anderson
Doesnt Paul talk about divisions in 1 Cor. 1: 11-13. I see the word division, same as denomination. Jesus prayed that the church would be one. I think it’s possible to have Unity and at the same time have focus on specific doctrines. I have been blessed by the teachings of many that do not embrace my particular thirst but we still can have Fellowship, and in that sense we are in unity.
Varnel Watson
This is a review of a class actually It was presented in 2-3 seminaries about a decade ago in connection with our AG
David Smith
There is no unity in division, especially amongst denominations.
Jared Cheshire
This come down to simple grammar and math questions.
Q 1. What does the word denomination mean?
A 1. Denomination is the result of a denominator dividing a part from a whole.
Q 2. What is the whole that was divided?
A 2. Look at the common denominator, what do the denominations all have in common, and what whole shares that part?
If your denomination shares some of the doctrines of Rome, then it is a part of that whole.
We are not to be a denomination of something else, but a whole body of Christ.
Steve Losee
they were born in revivals, being shunned by previous traditions, and died when they became the “previous traditions”.
Varnel Watson
you are speaking of movements Steve Losee NOT denominations You need to get it straight after all said and done
Steve Losee
no I’m not. As a general rule, the Reformed, Presbyterian, Methodist etc. groups formed that way. Not so of Roman, Orthodox or Anglican (Episcopalian) though.
Varnel Watson
Steve Losee what general rule do you cite here?
Steve Losee
um…church history. Unless you have records that they didn’t start as a move of God, long before they went apostate.
Varnel Watson
Steve Losee naah no such thing in history
Rob Erto
No
McCall Randy
No. I feel denominations can actually draw people away from God. I really don’t think God approves of denomination because it is division among the believers.
Darian Burkhart
That’s one of the many reasons I left the catholic church. Beside their numerous faulty teachings, they taught that you MUST belong to the Roman church or else. Last I checked, God looks at the heart, not at the denomination.
Stephen McCulloch
Non-denominationalism was tried and will be tried again. That was the basis of what later came to be called the Restoration Movement (began about 1790 in USA). The movement, in spite of their lofty ideals has since devolved into six or so denominations. Although a few of them deny being denominations.
RichardAnna Boyce
No. ….. Free Grace is nondenominational, which appeals to me.
Varnel Watson
coming soon to a city near you
Dusty Deaton
Non-denomination churches are just as “religious” as any other church. Most of them have this “Jesus is who you want him to be” theme going on.
Shawn Dollar
Hello, Troy. I think Paul addressed that pretty directly in his first letter to the Corinthians:
“But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. …. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human?” 1 Cor 3:1-4 ESV
The New Testament biblical word that closely matches our English word “denomination” is the Greek noun “hairesis”, which means “sect” or “faction”.
Paul warns against “hairesis” (“sects”/”factions”) in Gal 5:20 and Peter also warns about false teachers who introduce destructive sects/factions in 2 Peter 2:1. Paul also says to twice warn a sectarian/factious (“hairetikos” – which is the adjective form of “hairesis”) person in Titus 3:10.
So I’m pretty sure there will be no sects (aka, denominations) in the new heaven/earth. I hope we can try to get started on that before then. 🙂
Sandy K Hanley
Better to have denominations of Christians with some error than denominations of atheist running around with no more churchs
Gerg Keyco
Or one huge church that teaches a plethora of error…
Sandy K Hanley
Gerg Keyco ?
RichardAnna Boyce
no denominations in Bible; it was church at Ephesus etc. May we should have Jesus church on 1st st, Jesus church on 2nd st etc.
Herb Van Schoick
To denominate means to name, are we seeking to remove names from groups of Christians? How would we identify them ? Do we want to hide our distinctives? When I was a Baptist I was proud of the history and distinctives of our part of christianity. Should we take that away? Just become one big lump of the same thing?
Olivaire Watler
To eliminate denominations we must be uniform in doctrine and organization. How would you accomplish that exactly? Aren’t denominations the natural result of sola scriptura?
Richard Wilson
No, they are a result of division.
Michael B Reimann
I say yes and I will explain why.
When God confounded speech at the Tower of Babel it is because mankind was of one mind and one language. And man had set himself up against God to rise higher than God.
If we were still not under the curse of Babel, we wouldn’t have these divisions. Or denominations.
But the sad truth is that if man were to truly come together as one before the return of Christ then we would repeat what happened at Babel
So. It is biblical that people can’t come together enough to “speak one language “ and to work as one.
Hal Tutor
Sometimes division is a good thing, when the church leaves the truth and will not be corrected, we really should leave and start a bible-based church if there isn’t one already. This is not the same thing as splitting over the builing program.
Michael Dennis
I ask us to be still. Listen to that “still small voice”. And ask, “Do denominations matter?”. Then ask if we say we both are Christians. Saved by grace through the sacrificial blood of “The, Lamb, Jesus, the Christ”. What is the need of asking, “What domination are you?”
Julie Paler
A house divided can not stand. In Christ Jesus there is no division
Revence J Kalibwani Ssalongo
Denominations represent ideas. The Bible doesn’t forbid ideas.
Sandy K Hanley
Did it ever occur to anyone that maybe God is revealing himself to different people in different moments of time, and that denominations are just a manifestation of that—i think that people should be in prayerful thought about thinking to tear down things that might actually be a manifestation of God working—not everyone is in the same place in their walk
Larry Koester
That is what people have historically velieved so it probably not true. For God’s ways are not our ways. The ancients always believe there were many God. The ones that mattered where the ones that defeated your gods so then one was good as any other at war.
Michael Paler
denominations are part of the false apostate church of the last days in 2 thess 2 and 2 tim 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=biqcPR_VQzo
Robert Gilland
Happy to go to any church except charismatic ones.
Mbuchi Maina
Robert Gilland kindly describe a charismatic church…
Robert Gilland
One where they allow speak in false glossolia
Gerg Keyco
Division keeps us on our toes. As one christian church led by the holy spirit we are in unity on essentials and know when a heritic arises. (As you can can see a couple posts above this one). One church with one ultimate leader is a good way to get a cult.
Randy Steinke
John 6 The Holy Eucharist.
1st Cor 10:16
The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread
This is very simple. Those that take John 6 literal are united into one body and those that think it is figurative are divided into thousands of denominations
Olivaire Watler
Randy Steinke that’s not actually true though. The Eastern Orthodox and Anglo Catholics also take it literally and they are separate from the RCC.
Randy Steinke
Olivaire Watler To a point it is. Besides without the Church this Sacrament is not valid.
Olivaire Watler
Randy Steinke it’s not true to any point. That is simply RCC opinion that it is not valid unless you are in Communion with them.
Randy Steinke
The Apostles and their Successors held the keys
Olivaire Watler
Randy Steinke and the Orthodox and Anglicans claim Apostolic succession.
Randy Steinke
Olivaire Watler They broke off from the Catholic Church
Randy Steinke
They broke off from the Successor of Peter
Olivaire Watler
Randy Steinke just another claim Rome makes.
Jo Kothenbeutel
Sunday Worship is in the Book of Acts
Only Lent is a false doctrine.
John Smyth was a Christian and is earliest Baptist we know about but Baptist Churches existed before him.
Its a Christian Denomination
Pentecostal is a Christian Denomination
Richie Porter
Love how the bible is able to expose denominations…
Chester Higgs
these are the characteristics of denominationalism
1st recorded Jewish denominational church
John 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
>>>>>>> (Doctrine of the Nicolaitans)<<<<<< Jezebel covers woman preachers
Rev 2:6 deeds of the Nicolaitanes-
Revelation 2:14 Balaam
Rev 2:15 and at the 2nd century the deeds of the Nicolaitanes become doctrines
Rev 2:20 teaching of Jezebel- V-24 as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak
which is where denominational churches come from
Paul established the church at Ephesus
Rev 2:2 – I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil:
Paul tried the spirits.
and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:
he found their this doctrine of the Nicolaitanes
Revelation 2:6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the DEEDS of the NICOLAITANE, which I also hate.
Then before the 2nd century the spirit of God called out the DEEDS turned into the DOCTRINE of BALAAM,
FROM -> DEEDS 2 DOCTRINES of BALAAM,
SUN GOD WORSHIP
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the DOCTRINE of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
>>>>>>>>>>SPIRITUAL FORNICATION<<<<<<<<<>>>TEACH<<>>>>>>SPIRITUAL FORNICATION<<<<<<<<<> flesh-A-lation-
BUT – Spiritual >Revelation
Chose who you this day who you will follow
Nicolaitans-Jezebel-Balaam
Nicolaitan
Vitringa supposes that the word is derived from ƒËƒÇƒÈƒÍς, victory, and ƒÉƒ¿ƒÍς, people,
and that thus it corresponds with the name Balaam, as meaning either lord of the people, or he destroyed the people; and that,
as the same effect was produced by their doctrines as by those of Balaam,
that the people were led to commit fornication and to join in idolatrous worship, they might be called Balaamites or Nicolaitanes–that is, corrupters of the people.
Niko – rule over or leadership over Laitans – lay people
this refers to the priesthood system or pastors or bishops having rule over the members of the church
within Christianity should not be for all followers are to be subject only to God.
the leadership in Christianity is to teach the word of God and lead in worship not have control of the people.
though the people should listen to advice of elders and wisdom there should be no priesthood.
since the only mediator between God and man is Jesus not a man who may be dedicated to God
The pastor in Christianity should only have say of the congregation as to the worship and membership in way if one is not following Jesus then they can be put out of the congregation
but should not be telling them what job they should or should not have, how they are to spend their earnings or who they should marry, or make any claim that they are the mediator.
1st Jewish denominational church
John 9:22 These words spake his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue.
>>>>>>> (Doctrine of the Nicolaitans)<<<<<<<
Beverley Webster Ghezzi
Well, I am in a group that tries to not be denominational, believing that these various names divide the Body of Christ. I think that a number of groups try to do this, Increasingly, as well, you see evangelical groups without a denominational name. I fail to see why transdenominationalism or non-denominationalism would involve reversing the Reformation — there were important insights, then, and whether we like every Reformer or not, most of them loved the Roman Catholic Church and wished only the best for it, but, having said that, they were men who followed its teachings to the hilt, until compelled to think otherwise. Jan Hus, for example, was a greatly-loved Roman Catholic preacher preaching in the vernacular in his day. Luther was a very observant monk. One of the chief problems with the Reformation was that the doctrines were written down, by grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone, with all the glory to God, but then, people were again told, upon baptism, that they had entered into the family of God, and various things like that, so they were back on the personal merit system. The reformers were good Catholics.
Brad Hudson
There is one Lord, one faith and one baptism. Christ established one church built on the foundation of prophets and apostles who hold the keys of the kingdom. The Church Christ established was lost and the doctrines corrupted and needed to be restored
Rwasande Godfrey
Papacy retained the truth in latin but king James defies and translate it…….. Papacy taught the church doctrine but Martin Luther defied and taught the bible……. Imagine john Wycliffe was burried and later his bones brought back, crashed and thrown to the river for translating the bible to the langauages we understand……… Denominations are Godly but must be guided by infallible and authority of the word of God and the holy spirit.
Yazan Khawaja
The Church was, is and always will be one
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Steve Losee Neil Steven Lawrence Larry Dale Steele Daniel J Hesse Since the beginning of the 21st century, only 6-10% of new born believers in America receive the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, which by 2018 has resulted in:Over 60% within Global Pentecostalism do not speak in tongues
A major doctrinal shift within Pentecostal Theology today claims speaking in tongues is not the only evidence of Holy Spirit Baptism
Some theologians even claim there is no initial evidence in the Bible
Others today go further to believe that no outward sign of the Holy Spirit baptism is necessary.
what is the answer to this dilemma then? — revival and restoration of the Pentecostal Message through praying, fasting and preaching:Salvation of the sinner’s soul and entire sanctification through the Blood of Jesus
Baptism with the Holy Spirit and fire with initial evidence of speaking in tongues
Supernatural gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit
Healing, deliverance and signs following
Pre-Millennial return of Christ and pre-Tribulation Rapture of His Church to glory
Please consider the URGENCY of this generation!Let us reason together what can we do to prevent this rapid decline in Biblical spirituality http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/leaving-the-assemblies-of-god/
Ralph Dumagpi
No of course
Nick N Beth
Denominations are not Biblical! Christ is the Head of the Church…there is only 1 Church and that is in Christ Alone. Every denomination has error. Christ and the Word does not!
Shane Mccall
I tried to post this yesterday and the admins didn’t approve it… But they approve yours?
SK Kujur
Denominations are not wrong if they maintain the truth of the words there and the presence of the Holy Spirit. Denominations within main stream cannot be wrong otherwise it will automatically come to the count of one of the various cults.
Tom Dicintio
And what about church membership where they want you to sign on the dotted line after taking membership classes. What everytime you move or go to a new church you need to do this. Does not sit well with me. I think our membership was paid for 2000 yrs ago…..in full.
Varnel Watson
Well seems like you are not disagreeing with what’s said making it not a slander but a correct observation. Sure, it is straight forward but the brief format of internet communication does not give us much room to go into a theological debt. Yet, all points listed have been well discussed in this group. Slander is a strong accusation to the truth being spoken. I hope we are all searching for the truth here (and the revival kits which seem more and more that AG distributed back then). Now I was not at the closed discussions of Resolution 16 but I was @ the Empower 21 SPS where Dr. Byron Klaus said the faithful words “remain critically loyal to the denomination.” With this said, there is more than one and two in this group that have invested several family generations in the work of AG and have deserved to be heard even if not liked by all.
George Haithcock
another argumentive question which has no importance at all for a beleiver
George Haithcock
we are to prach and live the book not denominations
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock even that perspective is denominational.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler how do u get that?
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock not all denominations take that to be the correct approach. Some are sacramental, for example. Some don’t believe in sola scriptura.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler true but that does not change the truth.
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock but there again who defines truth?
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler gods word is truth that the only truth that matters. Why try to make things difficult or controversial
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock I am just pointing out that this is more complex than you believe it to be and to think outside your normal parameters. A Catholic would say God’s Word is both the Bible as interpreted by its Magisterium together with Sacred Tradition.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler sir I care not what others think. Everyone has a right to be wrong if the want to de y or ignore the scriptures. Not trying to be crude just honest
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock but that’s exactly the point!?. If we don’t care what others think we will always have denominations. We might not call them that but that will be the reality.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler no where are we called to change other beliefs. Jesus did not come to try a d change the religious crowd of his day. I only have to answer for me not every denomination nor do you or anyone else professing to be a believer
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler we are to preach the word and the holy spirit is to take that word to hearts to bring conviction and salvation. To many think we are to do what only God can do. Change a person from the I side out not the other way
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, I am making the deeper point that path does not eliminate denominations.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler do not follow you. Re state what you are trying to say
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock your approach does not eliminate denominations.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler not trying to all I am saying is I am not
called to change them. They will no doubt exist when I am gone and maybe when jesus comes back. But denomination want save you
George Haithcock
Denominations is a man thing not God
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock I agree with that but I am thinking of the OP. A lot of people call for the elimination of denominations – a laudable aim – but don’t really understand the root cause why we have them in the first place.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler why do we have them other than people belive they can make up there own rules and practices
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock why do they believe that though? Isn’t that the natural fruit of sola scriptura? If each one can read and interpret the Bible for himself, studying and seeking the guidance of the Holy Spirit hasn’t experience taught us that we will reach different conclusions/revelations?
George Haithcock
Denomination as tion have done more to hurt the body of christ than good.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler no it is the result of trying to ha e things there own way bypassing what God has already set down in his word. God only has one word but it offends many thus they want to create there on
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock so what is the answer in light of the fundamental problem I just posed?
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler go back to the bible and get rid of all the ms. Made ideas
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock lots of denominations believe that they are doing it God’s way as set down in his Word but they don’t all agree. I believe most are sincere. What does that tell you?
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler man is messed up because God is not a god of confusion or debate
Kula Gordon
Live it George! You are on point!
George Haithcock
We cannot blame gods word for man failure to believe it and practice it
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock no doubt the fault is not with God’s Word. Don’t you see what I am saying?
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler to be honest no. Are u defending man made denomination and saying we should work with them?
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock no. I am saying that denominations come because we have adopted a principle of sola scriptura. Unless there is one infallible interpreter of scripture we will always disagree. I am not Catholic but they have a point.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler what is that point? I do not see it. Are you saying solar scripture is not right?
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock are denominations right? One follows the other.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler no we are all children of god not members of a denomination
George Haithcock
This based on that the bible is recognized for what it is the word of God
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock ok. I don’t want to stretch you outside your comfort zone.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler lol do not get that one either. Did not know I was in one. I just belive the book it is my guide and rule of practice. I am solar scripture and belive the church needs to come back to it and many of the issue today in the church would be resolved. I do not apologize for being a believer of the book and the God of the book
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock I know you didn’t. You are thinking within a certain paradigm. I was challenging you to think outside in order to pursue the ideal of a unified church where no denominations exist. But your response is to say we must stick to sola scriptura and we just need to get back to the Bible. The Bible as interpreted by whom? The Word of Faith people? The Mormons? The Catholics? Anyway I expect we will continue to go in circles so, no problem. Have a good night.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler that not an issue with me. Why should I be bothered by others idea about the bible? My ideas or there’s does not change the word and what it says.
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock I thought so?Have a good night.
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler u have prove nothing so were u just as bout wasting time?
Olivaire Watler
George Haithcock you are not ready to receive what I’m saying so I have realized there is no point. Only ego would cause me to continue.
George Haithcock
You just shut people down who do not dot there I or cross the t’ s the same as you?
George Haithcock
Olivaire Watler the problem is what u are saying is not understandable u are talking in generalities not certainties
George Haithcock
What is your point not what is other denominations point?
George Haithcock
How long have denomination been around? Can u name any change in them that been made?
Drew Osborne
had the reformers truly held to Scripture the different denominations may never have come into existence. They would have at least been delayed. Man, even within the parameters of the church, has always altered God’s ways. But the reformers didn’t do as the word of God says. They totally ignored taking the gospel to the Jews. Hence we have the various groups today
George Haithcock
Drew Osborne untrue denomination were present even before the reformation. You are trying to play a blame game not deal with the truth.
George Haithcock
U imply you were there and can say they failed to Hold true.
George Haithcock
Maybe you should read your church history again
Drew Osborne
I implied no such thing and the fact is history shows they ignored the Jews in relation to the Jews. Luther wrote a book entitled “Of the Jews and Their :Lies’ which Hitler gave large credit for his hatred of the Jews. No need to reply, I’m not going to argue with you one way or the other
Varnel Watson
Well seems like you are not disagreeing with what’s said making it not a slander but a correct observation. Sure, it is straight forward but the brief format of internet communication does not give us much room to go into a theological debt. Yet, all points listed have been well discussed in this group. Slander is a strong accusation to the truth being spoken. I hope we are all searching for the truth here (and the revival kits which seem more and more that AG distributed back then). Now I was not at the closed discussions of Resolution 16 but I was @ the Empower 21 SPS where Dr. Byron Klaus said the faithful words “remain critically loyal to the denomination.” With this said, there is more than one and two in this group that have invested several family generations in the work of AG and have deserved to be heard even if not liked by all.
Olivaire Watler
Drew Osborne you will always have denominations because different people will always have different interpretations of scripture.
Varnel Watson
Well seems like you are not disagreeing with what’s said making it not a slander but a correct observation. Sure, it is straight forward but the brief format of internet communication does not give us much room to go into a theological debt. Yet, all points listed have been well discussed in this group. Slander is a strong accusation to the truth being spoken. I hope we are all searching for the truth here (and the revival kits which seem more and more that AG distributed back then). Now I was not at the closed discussions of Resolution 16 but I was @ the Empower 21 SPS where Dr. Byron Klaus said the faithful words “remain critically loyal to the denomination.” With this said, there is more than one and two in this group that have invested several family generations in the work of AG and have deserved to be heard even if not liked by all.
Daniel J Hesse
I love our fellowship. I still believe in our people and the God who calls us into His fellowship.
Varnel Watson
its a denomination on its way Daniel J Hesse