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Pete Fiske | PentecostalTheology.com
Dealing with Biblically-Incorrect Heretical Teachings: Death Before Adam Sinned, Two Creations, and the Other Theological Heresies of Old-Earth Apologist Finis Jennings Dake
According to some ‘Christian’ teachers who have compromised with evolutionists and other anti-Christian teachings on the literal truth of God’s Word about the age of the earth and origin of suffering and death, there is supposedly billions of years of death and suffering before Adam’s sin. God’s Word, which is infallible and true, clearly says that death came into the Creation as a result of Adam’s sin: ‘Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned’ ~Romans 5:12
‘For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. ‘ ~1 Corinthians 15:21–22
God, speaking through Paul in both of these sets of verses is clear, the Creation was ‘good’, and free of death, till by the rebellious act of Adam and Eve, sin and death entered into the world. So if this is abundantly clear in scripture, theologically, as it seems to be, how (and why) would some ‘Christian’ teachers not accept the inspired words of Scripture when teaching about Creation? The fact is simple…these ‘Christian’ teachers have compromised the truth of scripture for the fallible, and false ‘theories’ and ideas of secularist humans (like Darwin) in order to try to make scripture ‘fit’ with so-called ‘science.’ Other than Dr Hugh Ross [http://bit.ly/1MnlO02] perhaps the most prolific of these old-earth compromisers is the late Assemblies of God preacher, Finis Jennings Dake (1902 – 1987), who to this day has a very loyal (almost fanatical apostolic) following in many pentecostal circles [http://bit.ly/1WeUjKN].
It should be noted that while Finis Dake did have formal pastoral training in the Assemblies of God, he is neither a trained theologian nor a trained earth or biological scientist. Hence, any claim to knowledge that Dake makes in his extensive writings concerning the supposed age of the earth, dinosaurs, the state of earth during and allegedly before Creation Week in Genesis 1, and so on, are based not on sound theological or scientific doctrines or laws, but on Dake’s own claim to direct divine revelation. Dake asserts:
‘Torrents of praise began to flow from my lips as I received in measure what the disciples had on the day of Pentecost. It was May, 1920, and I was seventeen years old. I was immediately able to quote hundreds of Scriptures without memorizing them. I also noticed a quickening of my mind to know what chapters and books various verses were found in. Before conversion, I had not read one full chapter of the Bible. This new knowledge of Scripture was a gift to me, for which I give God the praise. From the time of this special anointing until now, I have never had to memorize the thousands of scriptures I use in teaching. I just quote a verse when I need it, by the anointing of the Spirit.’ http://bit.ly/1FZj6Jg
If that be the truth, then everything and anything Dake publishes should be the absolute truth, supposedly, directly from the Holy Spirit. But is Dake really speaking the from and for the Holy Spirit, or he just making an extraordinary claim? Extraordinarily claims require extraordinary evidence to back them up. So, in the light of the infallibility of Scripture and in line with the scientific evidence, how do the claims of Dake stack up? Isaiah 11:2 tells us that the Holy Spirit is the ‘Spirit of wisdom and knowledge.’ John 14:7 and 16:3, the Lord Jesus Christ says He is the ‘Spirit of truth.’ Hence, the Holy Spirit cannot (and will not) lie! Also, remembering from Romans 5:12 and 1 Corinthians 15:21–22 that by Adam, death and suffering (sin) entered into the world, the Word of God sets up a rigorous standard from Scripture for Dake’s claims, how do they compare?
In his extensive attempt at theology (God’s Plan for Man, pg.76) Dake makes the assertion: “The present things on earth were brought into existence in six days after the destruction of the first Creation” , yet in Genesis 1, we clearly read that in each creative day (yom in Hebrew), the context is that of six consecutive 24 hour days: http://creation.com/the-meaning-of-yom-in-genesis-1
And in the 5th Commandment, God directly tells us: ‘For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.’~Exodus 20:11
How much clearer does the Holy Spirit have to be? God created the world in six literal days, God created the earth and ‘ALL that this in them.’ Kinda hard on Dake’s supposed pre-Adamite world, wouldn’t you say?
If one were reading modern day English, there might be some scriptural basis for Dake’s claim of billions of years and two creations. However, we must remember that the King James translation of 1611 was not written in modern day English, but seventeenth century English, and that words since then (including the word ‘replenish’ have changed in their meaning.) Any reputable theological scholar would have recognized this fact, but not Finis Jennings Dake! The self-styled ‘Walking Bible’ goes on to write: ‘The fact that Moses by inspiration said that God told Adam to multiply and replenish the earth proves there was a social system on the earth before Adam, for he could have replenished that had not been plenished before. Some argue that ‘replenish’ means ‘fill’ and not ‘refill’, but this proves nothing.’ (God’s Plan For Man’, pg. 118)
Dake virtually justifies his entire old-earth theology on the word ‘replenish’ in Genesis 1:28: ‘And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.’
Genesis 1:28 in the King James Version (KJV) contains the expression ‘replenish the earth’. Some have used this translation to support the ‘gap theory’, also known as the ‘Ruin-Reconstruction theory’, which involves the necessity for God to re-fill the earth after a pre-Adamic race had perished as a result of a so-called ‘Lucifer’s flood’. Is this interpretation correct?
The word ‘replenish’ occurs seven times in the KJV: here in Genesis 1:28, again in Genesis 9:1 (both times in the imperative), and five times in three major prophets in the passive and causative forms. So does the Hebrew original in these cases really mean ‘re-fill’? But before getting into the Hebrew, we must ask why the KJV translators used the verb ‘replenish’.
“An examination of the Oxford English Dictionary (OED) shows that the word was used to mean ‘fill’ from the thirteenth to the seventeenth centuries. In no case quoted in these five centuries does it unambiguously mean ‘re-fill’. The OED defines ‘replenish’ as having 10 meanings throughout its history: Replenished (adjective): fully stocked; provided, supplied; filled, pervaded; physically or materially filled; full, made full.
“To replenish: make full, fill, stock with, as in: ‘This man made the Newe Forest, and replenyshed it with wylde bestes’ (AD1494); inhabit, settle, occupy the whole of; fill with food, satiate; fill (space) with; fill (heart) with (a feeling); fill up again; fill up (a vacant office) (AD1632); become full, attain to fullness.
The word translated ‘replenish’ (KJV) simply means ‘fill’ in the Hebrew. In the English of King James’ day, ‘replenish’ also usually meant ‘fill’, not ‘refill’. The word ‘replenish’ therefore cannot be used to support ideas about a previous creation, which was destroyed. In any case, such erroneous theories, invented in response to the ‘millions of years’ idea, must hold to the unbiblical notion that there was death and suffering before Adam’s sin.” http://creation.com/the-meaning-of-yom-in-genesis-1
For those Christians who believe in Dake’s old-age paradigm of ‘a great dateless past (God’s Plan for Man, pg.76), or millions of years, must also accept the notion that most of the animals in the fossil layers that formed in Noah’s Flood, had diseases like cancer in the bones of animals before sin, and that God described such diseases as *very good.* A preposterous idea if one accepts the Word of God!
Answers in Genesis CEO Ken Ham writes: “At the end of the sixth day of creation, God described the entire creation as “very good.” However, in the fossil record, there are many examples of diseases in the bones of animals (e.g., tumors [cancer]; arthritis; abscesses etc). Such diseases could not be described as “”very good”,” when in the rest of the Bible diseases are always viewed as bad and a result of sin and the curse. These diseases simply could not have existed before sin, if the Bible is true (and it is). http://bit.ly/1YxpuD5
As far as his understanding of science goes, Dake doesn’t fair much better than in his lack of sound interpretation of Scripture. He assertively babbles: “If the [evolutionary geologists] can prove that the age of the Earth is as old as they claim it is, why disagree with them?”
Apparently “The Walking Bible’s” anointing is waning as Dake blindly commits the ‘Appeal to Authority’ fallacy [http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html ] leaning on the blind and unproven assertions of uniformitarian (evolutionary) geologists, instead of the empirical evidence against an old earth supposedly billions of years old.
Dake babbles on: “It is generally acknowledged, based on chronologies found in the Old Testament, that Adam was created about 6,000 years ago, or about 4,000 B.C. Since Darwin published On the Origin of Species in the mid-1800’s, those who have held to a literal interpretation of the Bible have struggled to counter the claims of science for a creation date stretching billions of years into the past. Most of the scientific evidence accumulated during the past century has supported these claims of an old earth.” (Dake, ‘Another Time, Another Place, Another Man, Chapter 1)
Dake should have consulted the latest evidence concerning the questionable reliability of long-ages based radiometric dating methods: http://bit.ly/1LswWtP http://bit.ly/1WeUtli
What should be apparent to any thinking follower of our Lord Jesus Christ, is that Dake is not ‘dividing the Word’ (2 Timothy 2:15) with all of the proper scholarly rigor that is necessary to make such bold claims as he has made. The Lord tests us, to come to Him with not only our hearts, but our minds as well:
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.” ~Matthew 22:37
“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind” ~Luke 10:27
But in the Last Days, under inspiration of the Holy Spirit, the Apostle Peter said that ‘false teachers’ would come: “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves” ~2 Peter 2:1
A stern warning from the Lord Jesus Christ to all who teach Biblically-incorrect heresies like Dake’s ‘two creations’ and ‘great dateless past/millions of years/death before Adam’: “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” ~Matthew 7:20-23
Finis Dake died in 1987, but his heretical teachings live on and are widespread in many pentecostal circles. It is the sincere hope and wish of this author that Dake repented of this sin of heresy, and that all who now follow in Dake’s theologically heretical footsteps think twice before leading other precious souls astray!
Nick Tavani [09/21/2015 11:34 PM]
Ad hominem is the last resort of a failed argument. http://www.reasons.org/articles/animal-death-before-the-fall-what-does-the-bible-say
Link Hudson [09/21/2015 11:34 PM]
Did he believe in a gap theory?
John Kissinger [09/21/2015 11:41 PM]
The two creation STORIES in Genesis is NOT a new thing Rick Wadholm Jr After all DAKE was Assemblies of God long enough to pick most of his teachings while a licensed minister…
Charles Page [09/22/2015 12:57 PM]
I like Dake’s belief in the incarnationl Son as opposed to the Catholic view of eternal son-ship. Although there is perhaps erroneous view intertwined.
John Kissinger [09/22/2015 1:24 PM]
Dake was not too certain in that and some of the text footnotes on sonship contradicts each other. But he is known for presenting this view Biblical (which I disagree with) as it was believed by some early Pentecostal groups along with the oneness position. Nevertheless, it is well known that Dake picked up the sonship doctrine while he was ordained AG minister
Charles Page [09/22/2015 1:27 PM]
Kenneth Copeland seemed to have adopted Dake’s view.
John Kissinger [09/22/2015 10:51 PM]
maybe the Pope talked him into it John Ruffle
John Kissinger [09/22/2015 11:04 PM]
Pete, the author(s) of this article is greatly confused on the doctrine of Trinity and I am ready to argue against his view(s) if there’s interest. Here’s a greatly contradicting example: therefore, God cannot have a body. (This doesn’t mean that one of the persons of the Trinity could not take on, or add, a human nature that includes a material body, as is the case with Jesus who now has two natures: divine and human.) http://www.equip.org/article/dakes-dangerous-doctrine/
John Kissinger [09/23/2015 12:18 AM]
Pete, it was never proven – it was admitted. There was a great deal of trials against ministers at that time. AA Allan was a later example, but during Zion it was a fad. Nevertheless, I am very interested in discussing your observations of reading Dake/DARB since the author of the article obviously has his own theological issues to deal with Ricky Charles
Matthew Lipscomb [09/23/2015 11:40 AM]
Evolution is the modern Church’s ‘Copernican Moment’.
John Kissinger [09/24/2015 2:04 AM]
Pete how do you explain the difference in creation stories b/w Genesis ch. 1 and ch. 2?
Ricky Grimsley [09/24/2015 1:31 PM]
I think everyone should believe in the gap theory. The angel/human hybrid (giants) and the pre-adamite world stuff dake taught is the best explanation.
John Kissinger [09/24/2015 1:41 PM]
gap or no gap there’s a difference between the 2 creation stories in Gen. ch 1 and Gen. ch. 2
Ricky Grimsley [09/24/2015 1:42 PM]
Eating of the tree brought spiritual death but not necessarily physical death for adam has to be removed from the garden so he wouldnt have access to the tree of life. He still could have lived forever.Genesis 3:22 KJVS [22] And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
John Kissinger [09/24/2015 1:45 PM]
is US here the Trinity you speak of?
Ricky Grimsley [09/24/2015 2:18 PM]
I have always thought so
John Kissinger [09/28/2015 12:36 PM]
I have to agree with you. Dake’s so right on this one as well
David Lewayne Porter
Ok I use a dakes but it is like this,
You use manure to fertilize a field. You have to know what to use, when to use it, and how best to use it (LoL, I kill me).
Michael Marquez
Well said.
Kerry Collins
That’s interesting
I have a sales matter of fact 2 of them
I use them sometimes but not often
Henry Volk
Dake’s lists are a helpful reference resource, but his commentary is sketchy.
Michael Marquez
I like the Dake’s Bible. Not that I agree with everything he teaches. But he does have some good material and food for thought on certain things.
Ricky Grimsley
I still use it. Dake was wrong on some stuff but at least he tried and cared. Most pastors i have known shied away from anything controversial and accepted what they were taught from other teachers. He is definitely someone i would have liked to talk to even though he was kinda condescending from the videos i have seen.
David Lewayne Porter
I agree on the not accepting the train of thought we are handed (and trying it).
But the dakes Bible is how a lot of “the Word of Faith teachers” got messed up.
Ricky Grimsley
I never got into the word of faith stuff and i only read the dakes bible from like 8-20.
David Lewayne Porter
So you only read dakes?
Michael Marquez
The Word of Faith (WOF) did not come from Dake. It came from EW Kenyon and it’s Pentecostal touch came from Kenneth Hagin. These two are the true fathers of WOF.
Michael Marquez
Dake never believed in the Born Again Jesus teaching, Hyper Faith or Positive Confession.
David Lewayne Porter
Michael Marquez
I never said WOF came from dakes.
I said dakes’ commentary was how a lot of the WOF ministers got messed up.
I have heard Kenneth Copeland and Haggen quote commentary from the dakes and then go slam off-the-rails with it. Off the rails to which start scriptures contradict what they say.
Michael Marquez
I know you didn’t. But many think the WOF theology came from Dake and it came from the two men I mentioned earlier. I was in the WOF at one point. What pushed it over the edge for me was their version of redemption.. the Born Again Jesus teaching.
Michael Marquez
And yes the WOF may quote Dake because he was a prosperity preach of sorts but Dake never embraced the heretical side of WOF.
David Lewayne Porter
What did it for me with the Word of Faith was
“I personally heard” Kenneth Copeland say during one sermon that the spirit told him (Copeland) that if he (Copeland) knew The Word the way that Jesus did then he (Copeland) could have been able to do the same thing that Jesus did during His earthly ministry (and on the Cross).
Jesus did not Know The Word, HE WAS THE WORD.
That was all of WOF for me.
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Michael Marquez
Yeah Kenneth Copeland is off base . False teacher. Check this link out. I actually have the cassette tape if this. Make s me sick. It’s only 2 minutes long
https://youtu.be/SxfrYbIz6wU
Michael Marquez
The clip cut off the part that says that God changed from being a failure to a success. That God became a success by giving. Dake never taught this stuff. Who knows where he got this foolishness from. 1 demons chapter 3 I guess.
Brent Welke
Dake’s biggest problem is not the 2 creations, but because he was a radical rapturist. However, his lists of 28 times whatever shortcut sermon preparation. He is a reliable compiler, as long as he doesn’t have an opinion to push.
David Lewayne Porter
No idiot (Copeland),
The biggest loser in the Bible is the one that goes into eternity lost without the redemption afforded by/through Jesus.
Copeland has no idea what salvation is truly and actually about.
None of the WOF do.
David Lewayne Porter
He has been listening to false spirits so long that he can’t tell the difference.
There are some prophesies he has given here lately that I am just waiting and watching.
Michael Marquez
And Paul Crouch is in the background giggling. I know there are a few good programs on TBN but I think it should be LBN…Lukewarm Broadcasting Network.
Michael Marquez
Yes I agree. Can’t tell God’s voice from the devil.
Michael Marquez
Another well known WOF is Frederick Price. He claims the reason why he drives a rolls Royce is because he is following in Jesus foot steps. Link below. I don’t believe they had rolls Royce camels back then.
https://youtu.be/3BRxgU5ErG0
David Lewayne Porter
I was told by a family friend that owned a rolls royce that any one can buy one, it is the upkeep that gets the average person into trouble.
Michael Marquez
Anyone can buy one? I guess there is hope for me. I can follow Jesus now. LOL Crazy doctrines bro.
David Lewayne Porter
I believe God blesses his people at times, but these guys WOF just jumped off the bridge into the deep (over their head) waters.
Michael Marquez
Amen. Yes, God does bless some with means but when He does it is not intended to live high on the hog. The purpose is to establish His Covenant. Which in NT times means Missions, Churches and other ministries and outreaches.
But thou shalt remember the Lord thy God: for it is he that giveth thee power to get wealth, that he may establish his covenant which he sware unto thy fathers, as it is this day. – Deuteronomy 8:18 KJV
Ricky Grimsley
Not now but when i younger.
Kerry Collins
God’s plan for man is a book worth buying
Michael Marquez
Yes it is a good book to own. Has some good stuff. But like anything else (outside of the Bible) you eat the meat and spit out the bones.
Kerry Collins
After, over some 2,000 plus sermons in 19 yrs as a COG pastor I sure know that’s true, nothing replaces the word of God.
Greg Baldwin
One of the best Pentecostal works and helps ever.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Dakes bible was the first study bible I was given over four decades ago.. I still have it in my bookcase.
He is so far off in many areas. And yet he claimed inspiration BT Holy Spirit. Really? One that comes to mind is where he said the giants in Genesis came from angels having sex with humans. But what did Christ say. That angels are sexless.
Unless one is fully grounded in the Word of God it’s best to treat dakes writings as pure heresy
David Lewayne Porter
I agree with you on all but one point.
Jesus did not say they were sexless.
He said they were neither marrying nor given in marriage. “Meaning they are more concerned about pleasing and being with God.”.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
We shall be like the angels. We shall be immortal and free of all human passions and that there shall be no death. Plus we have no scriptural proof other than that angels are always described in the masculine sense.
We need to get away from all human reasoning when it comes to interpretation the Word of God.
As Christ said in Matthew 22:30 he told the Jews YE Do ERR. Or as Adam CLARKE said you are decieved.
Fake was not infallible even though some of his followers think so.
David Lewayne Porter
Did the Bible ever say any were the angels are sexless?
Did it ever say they are one sex?
Greg Baldwin
You don’t know what you are talking about Grover. You are either not Pentecostal are just plain ignorant of true bib le doctrine We
Grover Katzmarek Sr
No I’m well versed in the theology.
But one thing that is constant upon my mind that it seems most have forgotten.
When Daniel Webster was a US senator he was asked what was the most solemn thought he ever had, his reply was “that one day I shall stand before Almighty God and give an account of everything I’ve done in my Body.”
Today most act as if there be no judgment if we are covered by the blood. So when I encounter error I respond that those cannot say “Why didn’t you tell me?”
Some will be nightly surprised come judgment day
Michael Marquez
Grover Katzmarek Sr not that I agree with everything Dake teaches cause I don’t. What heretical teachings have you found in Dake?
Grover Katzmarek Sr
One that there was two creations.
That there was death before Adam sinned.
That Satan was in charge and ruled planet earth. I could go on and on
Ricky Grimsley
None of that is heresy. Satan is the God of this world. As far as two creations…..thats seems obvious. If you believe that “in the beginning” was only 6000 years ago you have giant blinders on…….to science and to the bible.
David Lewayne Porter
Satan became the god of this world (the prince and power of the air) AFTER Adam and eve forfeited it.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
No. I used to believe in two creations and an old earth. But after studying after Ken Ham (and there are many scientists who agree with him) that I now
believe in a young earth.
You say it’s not heresy but I disagree. Anything taught that is not true is heresy
David Lewayne Porter
Heresy
is the improper teaching of a topic that can effect the eternal destiny of a soul.
The creation belief really doesn’t, unless they are very weak believers.
There is much more concerning salvation that needs to be taught and addressed than questionable (theories).
Ricky Grimsley
Ken hamm means well but he is wrong. As far as heresy. Pretrib rapture would have been heresy in the early 1800s but now its just a view we differ on.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
No that view pre-trib is still heresy. The church didn’t believe it for 1800 years and those that hold that view twist Scripture to their own destruction.
First Sir Robert Anderson misinterpreted Daniel 9:27. And then those that hold to this view what do they do with the parable of wheat and TARES?
Ricky Grimsley
I dont believe in pretrib but virtually everyone i know does. I dont go around calling them heretics is my point.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Then you might like Gary Cutler and his website Rapture Revival
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Precisely what is false teaching if it’s not false teaching
Ricky Grimsley
Its the connotation of the language used. Its the difference of agreeing to disagree and burning someone at the stake. For instance, I am an “open-theist”. Most people dont agree but some would say i am a heretic going to hell. When you say “false teaching” it implies sinister motives as opposed to just being wrong. At least thats how i would take it if we were talking directly.
Michael Marquez
Heresy is teachings which go against essential doctrines of the historic Christian faith. Essentials meaning the Gospel as defined by 1Cor15:1-4; Doctrine of Christ (who Christ is, deity, sinless,etc) 2Jn v9,10; salvation by grace thru faith not works Eph2:8,9 or any other teaching which is essential to one’s salvation. Dake’ s pre- adamite teach or Angeles having sex with humans may be considered false teachings but not heresy. Not every false teaching is heresy.
Ricky Grimsley
I dont see how anyone who reads the bible cant see that angels had sex with humans. Another obvious thing.
David Lewayne Porter
Again, your translation of “the sons of god”.
Humans are considered sons of God as well as angels,
(Weak, very weak translation).
Ricky Grimsley
So the giants?
David Lewayne Porter
Giants are giants, that simple. (so the men of renoun – are they the gods of Roman and Greek mythology? Do we go there?
The fact is we don’t know.
Saul was a head taller than everyone else. And what of the different men King David and his men fought on occasion?
Search human growth disorders. There are differing sizes of people that occur from time to time. Are they offspring of the “sons of god”.
Although there are accounts of women having sex with spirits at different religious practices but I have never heard of offspring as a result of it.
What about the fruit the spies brought back to Moses the first trip to check out the land. They were huge! Did the sons of god cause that?
Ricky Grimsley
Every culture has some version “angels” coming down and taking the women.
Ricky Grimsley
And yes i believe angels were involved the after the flood giants as well perhaps not sexually but scientifically.
David Lewayne Porter
Seems like a stretch and twisting of position (but it does not matter for a souls destination).
Ricky Grimsley
Romans 5:12 KJVS
[12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: This scripture cannot mean that adam was the first sinner. Sure he was the first sinner of the human race and he had dominion over creation so sin entered the new creation through his sin but sin had to already exist in the universe. Otherwise, there could not be the “knowledge of good and evil”. Surely sin entered the universe through satan and not adam and satans dominion was cursed well before adam. Do you really believe that God created the earth 6000 years ago and it was formless and void? I dont get the impression that job and isaiah felt that way.
John Conger
I may not agree with dake on everything but id hardly call him heretical. Calling someone a heretic seems to be the Christians version of liberals calling everyone that disagrees with them “bigot” or “racist”.
Rico Hero
A literal translation of 2Peter 3:5 says, ” by Gods word the heavens were of old, the earth standing out of water and in (surrounded by) the water. ”
He is speaking of the pre Adam world that “then was” and was destroyed because of Lucifers pride.
Gen. 1:1 is the original creation of heavens and earth( earth means dry land. See gen.1:10) it was originaly created standing out of water and in (surrounded by water)
Gen. 1:2 literally says, “and the earth(dry land) was ( from the verb to become, not to be) without form (tohuw, a waste), and void;(bohuw, empty) and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.(Gen.1:1-2 KJV).
As you can see, the earth, darkness, and water are in existence beforeagainst day one.
Day one starts with light “and the evening and the morning were day one.
Going back to Peter, in Peter 2 he is speaking of false prophets and teachers that entered the church and in 2Peter 3 they scoffed at the coming again of the Christ. Peter said these false teachers and scoffers wilfully forgot that the heavens were created of old and the earth standing out of water and surrounded water.
Even today, you have false teachers like Ken Ham that denies the Millenial reign of the Christ and he willfuly forgets the heavena were of old. He rather preach a False young earth account
Rico Hero
A literal translation of 2Peter 3:5 says, ” by Gods word the heavens were of old, the earth standing out of water and in (surrounded by) the water. ”
He is speaking of the pre Adam world that “then was” and was destroyed because of Lucifers pride.
Gen. 1:1 is the original creation of heavens and earth( earth means dry land. See gen.1:10) it was originaly created standing out of water and in (surrounded by water)
Gen. 1:2 literally says, “and the earth(dry land) was ( from the verb to become, not to be) without form (tohuw, a waste), and void;(bohuw, empty) and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.(Gen.1:1-2 KJV).
As you can see, the earth, darkness, and water are in existence before day one.
Day one starts with light “and the evening and the morning were day one.
Going back to Peter, in Peter 2 he is speaking of false prophets and teachers that entered the church and in 2Peter 3 they scoffed at the coming again of the Christ. Peter said these false teachers and scoffers wilfully forgot that the heavens were created of old and the earth standing out of water and surrounded water.
Even today, you have false teachers like Ken Ham that denies the Millenial reign of the Christ and he willfuly forgets the heavena were of old. He rather preach a False young earth account
Mary Ellen Nissley
Exodus 31:17 “… for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth…”
Rico Hero
Made. Implying a recreation/restoration and not original creation for the heavens were of old.
Rico Hero
The light in day 1 came from the sun that was created long ago in the begining. When God started the restoration work , the spirit hovered over the destroyed earth (Gen.1:2). When he said let their be light to divide night and day, he re-set the rotation of the earth ( the rotation of earth is how we get night and day).
In day 2 he restored the atmosphere , the firmament or an expanse dividing the water and clouds or waters above the firmament.
The 3rd day he restored dry land so that the earth once again stood out of water and restored plant life .
The 4th day he made (not create) the sun and moon to give seasons (by restoring the circuit of the earth is how we get seasons).
The 5th day sea and birds. The 6th day animals and man
Mary Ellen Nissley
Only if you start with your assumption.
But look at the context of that verse you quoted in 2 Peter.
2Pe 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
2Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
Setting: Last Days, scoffers. Denying the promise of Christ’s coming.
On what basis? Evolution.
They are saying that all things CONTINUE AS they were FROM THE BEGINNING of the Creation.
Not from the end of the Creation.
They are saying the process of Creation continues, without stopping at the end of the sixth day.
And they refuse to acknowledge the Flood, which was God’s Judgment on wicked men.
And from this springboard, Peter goes on to speak of the coming Judgment.
You are twisting Scripture, to suit your imagination. There is NO Scripture that says what you are saying… it’s all fabricated out of whole cloth.
Much like the Book of Mormon. Inserting human imagination between the lines of Scripture can turn Native Americans into Lost Tribes of Israel!
If there was such a thing as a pre-Creation judgment, it would have been openly revealed, and expounded on, in Scripture. But it isn’t.
Rico Hero
It is.
God bless
Mary Ellen Nissley
Too much “I am of Apollos!” and “I am of Paul!” in the church.
Face it: every single great man of God was wrong in SOMETHING!
Because every man is HUMAN. We all make mistakes.
Dake seems to have gotten a lot correct, but like everyone, he made some mistakes. Dake did a great work: far greater than anyone in this discussion. We owe him respect for that.
Clint Edwards
I do not know much about Dake, had a pastor that referenced him occasionally. What is wrong with his ideas?
Jon Ray
ideas? – nothing ! except that all ideas have consequences…
Ricky Grimsley
Lol how can be the eternal son if “this day i have begotten thee.
Charlie Robin
The whole verse says: “You are my Son; today I have begotten you.” – why is he first called Son before being begotten? NIV and others has it: You are my son; today I have become your father…
Morry Deed
Interesting, I’ve had pre-adamite believer friends before. And with the cancer thing they would just say the second creation the one we read about was “good”. The pre adamite world was destroyed along with every living thing ready for a new earth they would say. Interesting anyway.
Charlie Robin
Is there a cancer? Yes, prayer for healing is in order, but so is prayer for the robust blessings of Psalm 119:140: “Your promises have been thoroughly tested, and your servant loves them” (NIV).
How rich to pray, “Lord, this cancer is testing Your promises in the life of my friend who is ill, but You are faithful to every promise You’ve made to her. May Your servant love Your promises through this time of testing.”
Michael Marquez
Though I don’t agree with everything Finis Dake taught… at he same time, I would not say the man is a heretic. We need to be very careful to label other believers “heretics”! Classicly, a heretic is one who denies the fundamentals of the Christian faith. But in our day, a heretic is defined as someone who does not believe every teeny tiny thing I (you and me) believe, teach or preach. Examples: If someone believes in a Post-Trb Rapture, they are a heretic. If someone does not use a KJV Bible, they are a heretic. If someone does not scream in prayer they are a heretic. If you don’t worship God on Saturday, you are a heretic. The list is endless. Truth is not all of us are going to agree on every thing. But we must hold to the Fundementals of the Faith.
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping Michael Ellis Carter Jr. Michael Marquez seems like NO one with any theological training can call it heretical There are a few things I have pointed to Ricky Grimsley
Michael Marquez
Troy Day We can call things heretical if they are TRULY against the Essentials of the Christian Faith. But I find that so many misuse the word heretical and heresy. To them, it is a matter of not agreeing with them 100% on every single point. And therefore they label you a heretic.
If there is a doctrine that is against the Essentials, then, and only then can it be considered heresy. Otherwise it is are bear false witness and not judging righteous judgements!
Varnel Watson
Michael Marquez which one would you say it is heretical in Dake?
Michael Marquez
Troy Day I don’t think Dake is a heretic or his teaching is heretical. That not to say I agree with everything the man teaches.
Steve Losee
Dake’s Bible is only good for the lists. His wholevsystem isbased on KJV, errors & all.
Varnel Watson
what KJV errors would you point out? Steve Losee
Anonymous
BTW Brett Dobbs what is your point of jumping from point to point. A QUOTE was given and rendered as close as the original as possible. You brought some expert Joel something who hadnt even looked into the original until I pointed out there is a foot note in the Latin AND it is not even Greek as he was saying in his video. Your expert saw my counter argument and never came back to discuss them – – – then you forgot about it. Then you want me to remind you of where we talk about instead of you searching it. Then it was only in 1 post though I gave you several 🙂 What is the point here – I think Terry Wiles Duane L Burgess are right on this one – when ppl cannot disprove pre-Trib rapture with the BIBLE they start twisting facts and things so they can fit into their scheme
Anonymous
Troy Day why are jumping around from thread to thread instead of staying on one thing. I can’t prove pre trib theory wrong. All I can prove is that there will be a rapture at the end of the tribulation.
However you’ve never once proved a pre trib from scripture. I’m done going in these circles. It’s a waste of time
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs NOT sure why you jump around? I have posted a rebuttal to the fake quotes every time I have seen them. So far since May 2023 I have not seen ANY counter arguments once the original is explained
Anonymous
Troy Day you posted 1 rebuttal to one quote. You ignore the other 3 because they contradict your 1st rebuttal.
Anonymous
Troy Day deal with these
Irenaeus (c.120-202)
“For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in which the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord”
(Against Heresies, V, 35, 1)
Irenaeus (c.130-202)
“And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, who have received no kingdom as yet, but shall receive power as if kings one hour with the beast”… And they shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. After that they shall be destroyed by the coming of our Lord.
(Against Heresies, V, 26, 1)
Irenaeus (c.130-202)
It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy [concerning the revealing of the Antichrist], than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved… But he indicates the number of the name now, so that when this man comes we may avoid him, being aware who he is.
(Against Heresies, V, 30, 3, 4)
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs I have addressed and explained these AT LEAST 3-4 times already just to you and then to others. They are explained and translated in the comments as response to your multiple postings of them. Are you telling me you STILL havent read my response since may or just playing dumb again? https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-troy-days-quote-irenaeus-on-the-pre-trib-rapture
MAY 6 Troy Day the text in question from book 5 chapter 26 section 1:….
MAY 6, 2023 OK Brett Dobbs TO SUM IT UP
Yesterday you posted 3 Link statement at first from the video – 3 references to book V which I explained as clearly referencing PRE_trib rapture by Irenaeus and this is in against heresies ALONE not to mention Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, also written in Greek, which also is extant only in an Armenian translation…..
Anonymous
Troy Day stop posting links of the past. You avoiding again. I scrolled through the comments. It makes no sense to me. The only ones that do, are the reply’s to you from Link Hudson and I. Where I think we’re both telling you that you’re not making any sense.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs You asked for those Link from the past. You asked when and where I answered. I am giving you EXACTLY when and where Go and read it! If you dont understand read it again and then ask a question. I will be happy to answer BUT I am not going to repeat every few weeks cause you are too lazy to read what I’ve written … Here it is AGAIN
MAY 6 Troy Day the text in question from book 5 chapter 26 section 1:….
MAY 6, 2023 OK Brett Dobbs TO SUM IT UP
Yesterday you posted 3 Link statement at first from the video – 3 references to book V which I explained as clearly referencing PRE_trib rapture by Irenaeus and this is in against heresies ALONE not to mention Demonstration of the Apostolic Preaching, also written in Greek, which also is extant only in an Armenian translation…..
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-troy-days-quote…
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m moving on, you’re wearing me out.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs all you need is go back and READ – thatS all
So when you come back in a few months with the same question
I will send you back the OP to read it FIRST before fake claims
AND YES if your friend had any theology left in him he should have been already here discussing this like he claimed he could but run… #ohWell
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs thats all youVE done 🙂 havent seen you post ANYTHING new – now that we found on of your Link is dead the other misquoted the first one plainly saying pre-trib and the last one referring to ISRAEL Boy I gotS to tell you John Mushenhouse Philip Williams it pays OFF to read the originals
Anonymous
Yet he did teach at Lee until — He suddenly didn’t.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse tell us MORE about this – NO one knows Dale
Anonymous
The reason was never publicly given, but it was quite sudden. Of course, the assemblies performed laicization/defrockment earlier. Then there was the arrest/conviction for violating the Mann act.. Then there were the Tri-theism accusations as well as others. The Officials of the Church were tight lipped about it.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse In 1937, during Dake’s ministry in Zion, he was convicted of violating the Mann Act by willfully transporting 16-year-old Emma Barelli across the Wisconsin At the time he was with our AG had nothing to do with Lee – no information of such involvement is found https://learntheology.com/dake_bible/dake-federal-trial.html
Anonymous
Troy Day Yes I know he was assembly when he spent at least 3 nights listed as husband and wife with her. He then taught at Lee and suddenly he didn’t. Some thought Tri-theism which his nephew denies. It isn’t in his bible but in another book which he wrote. Regardless his nephew makes a living out of selling Dake’s bible so he would lose a lot. Sadly, Dake is treated as the second coming of John the revelator among Pentecostals. My view is that few Pentecostals have written on the subject and so the ones who have, are treated as mentioned. I do know that some old timers , now deceased, in the CoG were cautious about his conviction. He was teaching youth at Lee. Did he repent. I’m not God so I don’t know.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse ZION and COG yes, but no link to Lee though … https://learntheology.com/dake_bible/dake_trial_conviction/Dake_Family_Response.pdf
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse someone posted he went to jail for taking a girl to church across state lines. Apparently her parents, RCC I think didn’t like it. This is the first I read about three nights with her.
Anonymous
Link Hudson yes he was convicted of three nights. I think he claimed she was hitching a ride.
Anonymous
Troy Day what do you expect his family to say. He was kin and his works are the family income. I would seek deeper sources. In 1942 he became a CoG Pastor in Cleveland and lectured at Lee. This has been tight lipped due to his problems, but the ones still alive know. He quickly left and Pastored an indy church there.
Anonymous
Link Hudson https://learntheology.com/dake_bible/dake-federal-trial.html
Anonymous
Link Hudson https://www.newspapers.com/article/the-oshkosh-northwestern-rev-finis-dake/8850337/
Anonymous
Troy Day – If only Elmer Odom or Mrs. French were still living. While holy with their tongue, they would tell the truth if asked.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I think it is important to be a bit cautious with reporting reports against other believers. Newspapers can report lies. Accusations from prosecutors are not always true, and judicial judgments are not always true. My understanding is that Dake was legally convicted of taking a minor across state lines, not sexual misconduct.
It could be that Kinsey redefined the word ‘petting’ in American culture. https://books.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=I9U5DwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA3&dq=%22petting+parties%22&ots=whjKl5suA6&sig=yaLC17UjcOxBSWEmlpExE3OSJOI#v=onepage&q=petting&f=false
Doing a bit of searching prior to Kinsey, it often appears in context with ‘necking.’ It doesn’t sound like a good report.
I also notice that Dake was not the first person who might have been perceived as a threat to Voliva’s influence to have his name smeared by allegations of sexual misconduct. But I did not realize that he was a part of the Zion, Ill religions movement. I read that 500 ministers in the A/G had come from there. The congregation that still exists that Dowie led isn’t Pentecostal as I recall. Neither is Sandford’s.
Anonymous
Link Hudson the booking of 3 hotels 1 only 17 miles from his home under a different name Mr Anderson and wife is what seemed problemic
Anonymous
Link Hudson I said he was convicted staying 3 nights registered as husband and wife. That is the truth, what they did, I don’t know.
Anonymous
Link Hudson btw Dake’s conviction was a matter of public record which the newspaper reported. You can always look it up. W often never want to think that men can sin, but they do.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse That doesn’t negate the points I made.
Anonymous
Link Hudson That basically does negate the point you made! He stayed with a minor girl in 3 dif. motels under fake name; do you know how old he was then ? The points you are making again are very polygamical Another example of the Leon Bible showing bias in his bibliography (published Dake Publishing) is when he attempts to make excuses for Dake by stating on page 246: “Zion, Illinois, was more or less a border town, situated only about three and a half miles from the Wisconsin state line. In the course of everyday life, many residents of Zion crossed the border every day.” So since Zion IL was 3.5 miles from the Wisconsin border its ok? First the biographer is down playing the fact that Dake did NOT drive her 3. 5 miles, but instead drove her almost 350 miles! He drove her from Wisconsin almost all the way to Missouri (to East St. Louis which is right across the border from Missouri!). Leon Bible also NEVER mentions that Dake stayed at the first motel less than 8 miles from Dakes wife and home! He also never mentions that Dake stayed with her in two more motels (three motels in a less than 350 mile trip!) on his way to East St. Louis!.
Anonymous
What I am saying is that court decisions and truth may not always align. Newspaper reports of court proceedings may not always be true. Statements of fact in newspapers may not be true.
Have you actually heard a news report of something you know about in detail, or even a news report where they try to describe what Christians believe, or dispensationalists, or whatever…. Typically the journalist is a specialist in journalism, not whatever he is reporting on, and he doesn’t really know much about what he is talking about.
If you are repeating false witness reported in a newspaper as fact, what is that called? It is something to be careful about.
Here is a quote from a website along a similar vein:
““Briefly stated, the Gell-Mann Amnesia effect is as follows. You open the newspaper to an article on some subject you know well. In Murray’s case, physics. In mine, show business. You read the article and see the journalist has absolutely no understanding of either the facts or the issues. Often, the article is so wrong it actually presents the story backward—reversing cause and effect. I call these the “wet streets cause rain” stories. Paper’s full of them.
In any case, you read with exasperation or amusement the multiple errors in a story, and then turn the page to national or international affairs, and read as if the rest of the newspaper was somehow more accurate about Palestine than the baloney you just read. You turn the page, and forget what you know.”
― Michael Crichton”
https://www.goodreads.com/quotes/65213-briefly-stated-the-gell-mann-amnesia-effect-is-as-follows-you
Anonymous
Link Hudson yeah it does as you cautioned me. Stop it Link Dake pleaded guilty. If he didn’t do it then he was guilty of lying and bearing a false witness. The difference between Dake and C. Parham and the rumors- well one was a rumor – Fox’s and one was legally convicted and he said he did it. I reported the legally provable facts. So many just refuse to accept that people sin. Just because you write Christian stuff doesn’t mean anything except that you write Christian stuff. The old Church f God Historian Elmer Odom in a personal interview with me acknowledged Dake was with them and then he quickly wasn’t. Dake’s books were not recommended or sold. They are sold now as there is a new generation.
Anonymous
Link Hudson I love DAKE Bible agree with 99% of his teachings BUT he was 35 yrs old man who took a 16yr old girl to a 300 mile journey stopping in 3 motels – one 17miles from his home; registered them under fake name as a family and admitted of his sin. What else is there ?
Anonymous
Troy Day there isn’t much. I always wondered why I didn’t feel led to buy a Dake’s bible. Joe Chambers has led the fight to expose Dake for Tri-theism and he has gotten a lot of opposition. The heroes in the church.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Link Hudson How would you feel if your underage daughter was picked up by a man almost twice her age, taken across state lines to three different motels (for a trip that was less than 350 miles), and engaged in petting parties? If you were a pastor, responsible to God and your congregation, would you (as a married person with an 8 year old child) pick up a young, underage girl then drive less than 17 miles to a motel to spend the night with her? How about then going to two more motels and spending the night with this underage teenager while your wife is at home taking care of your children?
Anonymous
Troy Day newspaper articles having him deny it.
There is an epistmological problem with the news, and possibly even with court records. Sometimes we read court records posted from someone who has an agenda, also. News articles about Pentecostals in the early 20th century were sometimes very negative. You have probably heard of the ‘Weird Babel’ accusation in the news in LA during the Azusa Street Revival.
I have not researched this deeply, and I admit to having read the Dake family member’s explanation. But Missouri is not a few minutes away from Zion, Illinois.
What I saw in the newspapers was an admission of ‘petting parties’, which might have changed in meaning to ‘below the waste’ since that time. Not too sure about that, but this seems to be the case. ____IF____ the news accurately reported what was said.
I could imagine a scenario where a cash-strapped preacher transported a teen many hours south to help her get a job and support herself, starting out really late the first night but finding he is too busy to continue, and to save money reported them as husband and wife to get the cheaper option of one room, sleeping in a sleeping bag on the floor. And then the town apparatus, which just might have used sexual allegations to smear someone else’s reputation in the past, made more of it than should have, the feds got wind of it, and drew up a case. Then the preacher is offered 6 months if he pleads guilty versus 10 if he goes to court with the incriminating-looking dishonest signatures that he signed the girl in as his wife. And then he chooses the 6 month deal, but has to plead guilty John Mushenhouse. In this hypothetical scenario, we could fault the preacher for signing into the hotel room as he did, and then for pleading guilty when he wasn’t. And then if some lies were reported through newspapers, words attributed to him he did not say….
I’m not saying that is what happened. I didn’t make it through 21 years of life without getting lied about in a newspaper, and that was the only newspaper article I know of that I had been mentioned in.
I also wonder if Parham was really guilty of what he was accused of. I read reports were used to damage his reputation in the same town.
I read about Josh Duggar being accused of having unimaginable vile child porn on his hard drive. The thing is, supposing some homosexual rights activist felt indignant toward the guy for the stuff his family admitted he did to his sisters when he was 15, and for Duggar getting away with it, and also unrighteously indignant toward Duggar for trying to help out with a good cause at the American Family Association. I could imagine a scenario where a hacker put something in a file emailed to him, or just broke into his office, hacked his computer using Linux, downloaded some junk off the dark web, tipped off the feds, then there he was trying to prove to the feds that he didn’t download it and that he didn’t even know how to use the darkweb. And no one would believe him after that scandal with his sisters, the Ashley Madison scandal, and his having to leave the AFA. Who would believe him? I don’t know all the details of that case, but from what I’ve read, he’s high profile enough that I’d put it at about 50-50 that he could have been set up. If it were just a regular guy, such a scenario would not be feasible enough to entertain seriously.
As far as the age thing, it’s the same sin if a 17-year-old takes a 16-year-old… or the same sin if the 17-year-old is married and does that. Of course, a man in his 30’s should have some wisdom, and might exert stronger influence and have more trust. But age gap doesn’t turn such a match into sin if man and woman are properly married. Just saying. I’d rather see a society in which 32-year-old men marry 16-year-old girls, stay faithful, treat each other well, than one in which they all stay single but fornicate into their 40s.
Anonymous
Link Hudson I am looking into the court record – he plead guilty BUT I am not judging here or taking sides JUST stating the FACTS I know AA Allen was NOT guilty to the whiskey party in Knoxville Melvin Harter R.W. told me the story personally and he was there himself. Dont know others!
Anonymous
Was Melvin Harter the one who walked through the hotel room and saw no whiskey bottles or pills, or was it the head of miracle valley before him? Did they both go through the hotel.
I’m telling you, you can’t trust newspapers when they print stuff about preachers. I used to be more gullible about this, but with how ridiculous the news has gotten in the past two decades, and reading the sensational stuff from the early 20th century, I just see I grew up in a bubble of time when the national news _____pretended_____ to be unbiased and was pretty good at pretending for a couple of decades.
I remember reading the piece the Economist did on Oral Roberts when he died, which they released on the web. Toward the end of it, they quoted Oral Roberts saying something about hoping to have a role in governing Tulsa in the afterlife, and how this was inconsistent with the idea of his going to heaven. I thought how ignorant of the Economist and the author to write such a thing. They should have someone doing religion pieces who is familiar with premil eschatology, as opposed to the folk idea that the dead just go stay in heaven forever.
I missed this part of the debate the other night, but I read a report on it where Lester Holt decided to play arm chair amateur economist instead of moderator and argue that opening up oil drilling wouldn’t reduce oil prices in the short term. Tim Scott corrected him. If the market knows when oil drilling picks up, that can have an effect on the economy going forward.
It would be interesting to see if an academic has done a paper on this specific issue.
Anonymous
Link sometimes I wonder if you are just playing nutty or are really a plain nut job? rw schambach told me the store on many occasions. He was in the car with him when AA was arrested. I even saw him told the story before 5000 ppl one night and claimed as AA claimed in court, that after the arrest they poured liquor all over him so the judge would smell it Melvin Harter has confirmed the story to its authenticity for all nut jobs out there
Anonymous
Nut job? What are you talking about? I was talking about the New York Times saying that his room was filled with liquor bottles and pills. I had an email from the head of Miracle Valley in the early 2000s who said he walked through the room.
I hadn’t heard this story. This was when he stopped at a diner, drank the milk, said it was a little ‘dingy’, whatever that means, then got pulled over for drunk driving with a bunch of reporters and other people standing right there ready to report on it? Is that the one? I hadn’t heard about them pouring liquor on him.
Give us some context. I hadn’t heard that one.
Also, supposedly, the coroner said he’d been paid off by a certain group or certain individuals to blame his cause of death on his liver, and he mailed a letter, and a check, I think, back before committing suicide. I was told that story, probably in the same email.
I’ve also read people saying he had bottled gila monsters and other critters and claimed they were demons later in his live. At least one poster on Actscelerate posted that. I wasn’t there. This was before my time.
Anonymous
Link Hudson coroner was paid off and the judge. RW said the Knoxville crusade basically took over the city so they set him up. There was NO hotel room involved BTW – AA mostly stayed with friends and all
Anonymous
Troy Day No, the hotel room was about the day of his death. The New York Times reported that at his death, he was in a hotel room full of liquor bottles and pills. This other gentleman said that he saw the hotel room after AA Allen died, and it did not have liquor bottles or pills on the floor.
Is the incident you are describing when he was pulled over and accused of drunk driving?
Anonymous
Link Hudson I knew and was taught by Parham’s daughter in law who was a woman of dignity and holiness. She assured me the rumors were politically motivated so others could control the beginning of the Assemblies of God. Dake admitted that he did it. Big difference. The people I interviewed with the church of God had little to say about Dake except he had a quick stay which wasn’t quick enough.
Anonymous
all I know is what rw schambach told me
that AA was NOT drunk when Knox police pulled them over and arrested him
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse It was the some of the same people accusing Dake, though? If he’d put himself in a situation where he looked guilty, and took a plea bargain so as not to spend 10 years in jail…. I am not saying that is how it went down, just a possibly hypothetical scenario.
There are men who fall into sexual temptation, and men who fall into sin by lying.
Anonymous
Link Hudson what don’t you get??????????????? Dake admitted to it. It is a matter of public record. The police and not those from Zion caught Dake. Parham never admitted to it. The police never arrested him. No trial. Dake wasn’t a rumor but a fact as he was convicted in a court of law and was sentenced. He agreed to it.
Anonymous
Read my post.
Anonymous
Link Hudson I read it. You are wrong on this one though I like DAKE
Anonymous
Troy Day I presented hypothetical scenarios. I didn’t say they happened. Just possibilities. My point is to be careful what we repeat about people if we read it in the media or even hear it from the courts. Pentecostals were not always treated well or dealt with honestly in the early part of the 20th century. And it is possible for someone to plead guilty and accept a deal out of fear.
Anonymous
Link Hudson well you never say anything just empty blanks. Perhaps you should finally take a stand on polygamies so we can all understand
Anonymous
Troy Day are you trying to find someone to justify polygamy for you. Is that what this is about? What have you got going on?
Your posts tend to be more ‘blank’ than mine.
I do not see how polygamy is consistent with what Christ taught in Matthew 19. Just remove the divorce part from the equation and you have polygamy.
But prior to that there were a man just before God like David and Abraham who have been polygamous.
Christ’s commentary on the law required that his listeners exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. Then goes on to teach on many things including the divorce and remarriage issue. My understanding is that polygamy was not really an accepted part of Jewish culture under the Romans, aside from ‘serial monogamy’.
Anonymous
Link Hudson Just watching you struggle explain away another pro-polygamy you just made without even thinking about it – just a habit I suppose BUT we did see you making this point once again on a video on the internets
Anonymous
Troy Day quit making up false accusations against me. What are you even talking about?
I cationing against being too free with accusing other brothers, then you do just that.
It is not enough to theoretically believe in sanctification. You have to walk in it.
Anonymous
Link Hudson what accusations? You yourself admitted to making such video. How did it get deleted you only know. This is the truth right there BTW check out the 2nd sentence of your post where you type in tongues though you are not a real Pentecostal Christian either – #nonSanctified You do not have to do anything to be fully sanctified. It is the LORD’s work – your sanctified by works theory is not flying well with Melvin
Anonymous
Troy Day again with tge accusations. What video did I delete? You gave a made-up narrative in your head. You admitted you might be wrong.
Your posts are often full of childish goading as above.
The Bible says to walk worthy of the calling with which you are called. The Bible also speaks of being called to be conformed to the image of Christ
Anonymous
Link Hudson What is your calling you speak of – does mission work justify polygamies? I’ve read cases where missionaries left alone tribal matrimonial hobbits but not a single case where they took one upon themselves – may you know from your mission work more or Neil Steven Lawrence Tommy Smith who know ALL things Indonesia cog related!
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m talking about your own calling to be conformed to the image of Christ and one component of that which is not speaking falsely about brethren or typing falsely about brethren in this case.
What is a marital habbit? Was that a Tolkien concept. 😀
Anonymous
Link Hudson that’s a good one: thou shall not type falsely about your  brother 
Anonymous
Troy Day
The rule in operation in East Africa and I assume in the rest of Africa for COG was that if someone was a polygamist they could get saved and be a member of the church, but not be allowed to hold any positions of influence or leadership.  And the man was still supposed to keep supporting his wives and family. The reason for flexibility was to protect the wives and children from becoming destitute. 
We used to joke among ourselves calling each other Power Packed Preachers (PPP).
A businessman I knew in the capital city Nairobi, who was a polygamist wanted to have the Church of God make him a preacher. The COG leadership refused. Out of rebellion he went and split one of the country churches in his home area.
I joked with my Gospel Team, that he is not a PPP but only a PP. They said what do you mean? I said yeah, he’s a Polygamist Pastor… 
Anonymous
sorry Link Hudson I am NOT of the habit of posting on Facebook during church times. I see it as demonic interruption for the ones doing it #sorry I also do not believe for a moment that you were a cog missionary or any other. You seem NOT to care too much about the doctrine and standard Neil Steven Lawrence and Tommy Smith adhere to. It is just that obvious …
Anonymous
Troy Day I care much about doctrine, but do not care to be a slave to tradition, something you could learn from.
I have never been ordained or licensed by the COG denomination.
Anonymous
Link Hudson yeah thatS just too bad You say you care about doctrine BUT do not discuss doctrine. Instead try to hurt the person who expose you and doing this during regular church service – too bad. You also do not care about your own COG doctrine for you do not adhere to most of it. Of course you were not ordained or licensed or even COG denomination affiliated (doubt you know what even affiliated with cog means nowadays) and even if you were back in the day as a missional worker/whatever they would have pulled your ordained/licensed papers
Anonymous
I found His argument that Jesus has body, soul, and spirit that the Father and the Spirit would have a body, soul, and spirit more alarming and bizarre than those ideas on creation. Some of his commentary is good, but on some issues, he argues at great length how obvious and true some obviously wrong and ridiculous point must be. He did this with his body, should and spirit idea about the God head with no evidence at all.
He did the same sort of thing arguing that in ‘after these things’ in Revelation the things must be the churches when the exact same phrase is obviously used as a regular time transition in John chapter 3 with no physical things to refer back to in that passage. But to hear they talk if you don’t believe with him you’re disagreeing with the Bible.
It reminds me of the story of A man who came upon a country preacher practicing to preach in the woods.
The preacher had left his notes which said weak point— slam pulpit and kick leg. Some people try to overcome a poor argument with a lot of bluster.
Anonymous
Link Hudson this was NOT his argument actually John Mushenhouse knows
Anonymous
Troy Day Which was not his argument. I read it.
I think it was in a commentary with Bible text on the top, maybe even Genesis 1.
Anonymous
Link Hudson he picked up this and the sonship from early Pentecostal oneness teachings. There were too many of them especially when he was near Zion. A.J. Bible can tell you more but for this very reason Dake separated from Zion and moved south. You’ve got to understand that if you did not believe certain set of beliefs like flat-earth you simply could not live nor operate in Zion. Philip Williams is plainly wrong too DAKE was lots of things but he was NO racists John Mushenhouse
Anonymous
Link Hudson John Mushenhouse NOT too sure if we can uncover the real deal with Dake’s testimony. I know the mentioned author of the article fathered our group member A.J. Bible so he may have the scoop on it BUT we are noticing your own cog organization hosting 3 if not more events on sexual predatory, traffic and ministerial purity and was gonna aske Dale M. Coulter Tony Richie whatS going on … https://learntheology.com/dake_bible/dake_trial_conviction/Dake_Family_Response.pdf
Anonymous
Troy Day, back in the day I read about everything Dake had written and wore out a couple of his famous study Bibles. Dake had an encyclopedic memory and applied it full force. That being said, his astonishing analytical and organizational skills did not extend to careful theological reflection and application. Accordingly, for all his brilliance he often made absurd claims.
Anonymous
Tony Richie There may be a few but I wouldnt say often. Most of them were borrowed from somewhere as well. I just obtained an original 1961 NT hard cover which was his first print of any Study Bible of his. What about the claim he was teaching @ Lee University never heard before
Anonymous
Troy Day he went back and forth between AG & COG for a while. I’ve also heard that he was at Lee U very briefly during transition. Dake eventually went Independent.
Anonymous
Tony Richie John Mushenhouse Many of us know that Rev. Finis J. Dake, a well-known minister in the AoG who tried to get Zion City, IL founded by Rev. John Alexander Dowie to become a part of the AoG but was unable to do so, joined the CoG and was an ordained minister with the CoG in the 1940s D. C. Barnes was a Lee College instructor in the 40’s. He may have been with the Bible Training School. I have heard the Finis Dake taught with him during this time but never actually at Lee. Perhaps A.J. Bible or Terry L. Cross can give some more specifics on this. I cannot find any connection with Lee but I havent examined the mentioned Finis J. Dake Collection…
Jimmy Swaggart once wrote, “Finis Dake was a scholar unparalleled. I owe my Bible education to this man.” Word-Faith preacher Larry Ollison, midwest regional director for International Convention of Faith Ministries, praises the Dake Bible as a good reference tool with “lists and useful information that cannot be found easily anywhere else.” David Roebuck, director of the Pentecostal Research Center at Lee University, declares, “The Dake study Bible has many helpful tools and charts.” https://sojournerapologetics.wordpress.com/2013/07/31/the-false-teachings-of-the-dake-bible-part-1/
Anonymous
Philip Williams Some have labeled Dake a racist. Those who really study his notes (not just the headings) know this is not true. Notes on Col. 3:11-12 state that “as a new creation in Christ there is no’ distinction made in rights and privileges because of race, sex, color, or position in life.” Racism has to do with belief in the superiority of one race
over another. As a new convert, Dake often attended an African-American church
and was baptized there. Throughout the years, African-Americans attended his church
as well. https://learntheology.com/dake_bible/dake_trial_conviction/Dake_Family_Response.pdf
Anonymous
Troy Day I have no liking to Dake. But everyone should know that almost everyone in the early 20th century were racist, a few Pentecostals being the exception. Yale was especially racist during the time Hillary Rodman Clinton was there.
Anonymous
Philip Williams your point is simply NOT Biblical @ all
Anonymous
Troy Day the question is whether it’s historically true.
Anonymous
Troy Day remember that few then objected to eugenics. Hitler adopted the American program.
Anonymous
Philip Williams neither Biblical nor Pentecostal take on the issue here
Anonymous
Troy Day of course! But Dake was an American influenced by the culture of his day.
Anonymous
Philip Williams not rally Link Hudson has justified him fully in all things
Anonymous
Troy Day no, I just said be careful what you repeat as fact. The articles about him Don look good on that issue.
He wrote a few wonky things. Sadly one of those was about tge godhead
Anonymous
Link Hudson articles about him DonT look good on that TRUE ! #sadly AS John Mushenhouse already indicated may have been to discredit him
Anonymous
Page 159 of the Dake New Testament lists “30 Reasons Nations Separated,” but
this relates primarily to the nation of Israel. In 1990 the wording of the title and
selected notes was changed to remove unnecessary offense.
Point #21 states that “all nations will remain separated on earth forever” (Acts
17:26). Some have substituted the word “heaven” for “earth,” giving an entirely
different meaning. There is no reference to people being segregated in heaven.
Point #23 states that “in heaven certain groups will not worship together,” but
this is not a racial issue. Rev. 7:9-17 and 15:2-4 refer to tribulation s�ints of all
nations, kindreds and tongues, worshipping God and singing the song of Moses
and of the Lamb. Rev. 14:1-5 refers to the 144,000 that sing a song that no one
can learn.
As Melanchthon said, “In necessary things, unity; in doubtful things, liberty; in
all things, charity.” We pray that those who have a heart for God will hunger and
search diligently for the truth. If