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Creation or Catabolism from the Foundation of the World(s)? as asked by Corey Forsyth cf. John Conger on omniscience (Picture note is from DAKE on Mt. 13:34ff) #ourCOG
In the sovereignty and omniscience of God, many things were determined and accomplished before or from the foundation of the world:
1. God existed before the foundation (Gen. Gen. 1:1; Ps. Ps. 90:2; Isa. Isa. 40:21).
2. Christ existed before the foundation (Isa. Isa. 48:16; Mic. Mic. 5:2; John John 1:1; John 17:5, John 17:24).
3. Christ was loved by the Father before the foundation (John John 17:24).
4. Wisdom was established before the foundation (Pr. Pr. 8:23).
5. Believers were predestined for salvation before the foundation (Eph. Eph. 1:4; 2Ti. 2Ti. 1:9).
6. God promised eternal life before time began (Tit. Tit. 1:2).
7. Christ was foreordained before the foundation (1Pe. 1Pe. 1:20; Rev. Rev. 13:8+).
8. Unrevealed secrets of God existed from the foundation (Mtt. Mat. 13:35).
9. The kingdom was prepared for the faithful from the foundation (Mtt. Mat. 25:34).
10. The blood of all the prophets was shed from the foundation (Luke Luke 11:50).
11. The Beast worshipers were not written in the Book of Life from the foundation (Rev. Rev. 17:8+).
Tom Torbeyns [01/02/2016 10:21 AM]
https://crosstheology.wordpress.com/before-the-foundation-of-the-world-simplified/
Tom Torbeyns [01/02/2016 10:22 AM]
https://crosstheology.wordpress.com/before-the-foundation-of-the-world/
John Kissinger [01/02/2016 10:23 AM]
Pete Fiske can bring some points from young earth position on this one as well http://worldeventsandthebible.com/2009/11/world-that-then-was-first-earth-age.html Tom Torbeyns how exactly do you connect this with open theism in your article?
Tom Torbeyns [01/02/2016 10:31 AM]
I’m just saying that “before the foundation of the world” is not a correct translation. Calvinists use the word “katabole” to prove that God predestined some to heaven and some to hell but this is basically their only “strong” argument.
John Kissinger [01/02/2016 10:34 AM]
Agreed, but you make a connection with open theism on that one and I wondered what is the connection. Being quite familiar with Methodius whom your cite and his brother’s works and the Thessaloniki theological school they followed, I submit to you that here is no open theism whatsoever not just in their writings but in that whole area of the world 🙂 Methodius’ quote does NOT in any way reflect to any shape or form of open theism: “Those [pagans] who decide that man does not have free will, but say that he is governed by the UNAVOIDABLE NECESSITIES OF FATE, are guilty of impiety toward God Himself, making Him out to be the cause and author of human evils”–Methodius The Banquet of The 10 Virgins disc.8 ch.16
Tom Torbeyns [01/02/2016 10:43 AM]
Christianity was quickly “infiltrated” by Hellenized concepts
John Kissinger [01/02/2016 10:47 AM]
That’s why I like your quote from Origen: “This point, indeed, is not to be idly passed by, that the holy Scriptures have called the creation of the world by a new and peculiar name, terming it ‘katabole,’ which has been very improperly translated into Latin by ‘constitution for in Greek ‘katabole’ signifies rather ‘dejicere,’ i.e.., to cast downwards,–a word which has been, as we have already remarked, improperly translated into Latin by the phrase ‘constitutio mundi.’…From this it follows, that by the use of the word ‘katabole,’ a descent from a higher to a lower condition, shared by all in common, would seem to be pointed out.” – Origen, De Principiis (Concerning The Principles), Book III, Chapter V”
Tom Torbeyns [01/02/2016 10:56 AM]
and Open Theism is… you could say… a reformation against this:
John Kissinger [01/02/2016 11:26 AM]
Back to #KATABOLE with brif LXX etymology In the LXX, [GREEK]kataballo[/GREEK]is used in the context of bringing down, casting down, causing to fall, breaking, or bringing to an end (II Sam. 20:15; II Kings 3:19, 3:25, 6:5, 19:7; II Chron. 32:21; Job 16:14; Ps. 37:14, 73:18, 106:26, 106:27, 140:10; Prov. 7:26; 18:8; 25:28; Jer. 19:7; Ezek. 6:4; 23:25; 26:4; 26:9; 32:12; 39:3.). Never does [GREEK]kataballo[/GREEK] refer to a foundation. In contrast, [GREEK]qemelioV[/GREEK] is invariably the word used when a “foundation” is referred to. To give some idea of the semantic range of [GREEK]kataballo[/GREEK], according to the Internet it is used in the LXX to translate the following nine Hebrew words (meanings are from Gesenius and Furst, Hebrew Lexicon, edited by B. Davies), many of which seem to be related to destruction, degradation, decay, disintegration, overthrow, etc:
haras, to tear down, break down, devastate, overthrow, destroy, extirpate. laqah, to take, lay hold of, seize, snatch away, captivate. natash, to stretch or spread out, scatter abroad, reject, let loose, disperse, give up. naphal, to fall, fall away, fall out, fail, hurl down, cast down, fall upon (attack). nathatz, to break down, destroy, smash down. paratz, to break, demolish, scatter, break up, spread abroad. satam, to lurk for, way-lay, entrap. shahath, to break to pieces, destroy, ruin, lay waste, devastate, violate, injure, corrupt. shaphel, to fall or sink down, to be laid low, humiliate, humble.
John Conger [01/02/2016 11:42 AM]
I don’t see how one cannot believe in pre adamite world
John Kissinger [01/02/2016 11:43 AM]
Our Heavenly Father is referring to Gen 1:2 but more in detail and that He has a purpose for doing this.
Jer 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was (became) without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. Jer 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. Jer 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. Jer 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger. Jer 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.
Brian Fulthorp [01/02/2016 11:48 AM]
interesting post Dony! Blessings,
John Kissinger [01/02/2016 12:12 PM]
on the contrary Tom Torbeyns pls see posts where we discuss its origins smile emoticon but this thread is about “katabole” This exact phrase is found in the following verses: (Matthew 13:35, Matthew 25:34, Luke 11:50, John 17:24, Ephesians 1:4, Hebrews 4:3, Hebrews 9:26, 1 Peter 1:20, Revelation 13:8 and Revelation 17:8), a total of 10 verse references. In each of these verses the English word “foundation” is translated from the Greek word katabole. Here is the Strong’s definition of the Greek term:
???????? katabole kat-ab-ol-ay’ from 2598; a deposition, i.e. founding; figuratively, conception:—conceive, foundation.
Tom Torbeyns [01/02/2016 1:59 PM]
but it should be translated differently as the prophets were not slain before the foundation of the world, neither was Christ. Both were slain before the destruction of the world.
John Kissinger [01/02/2016 2:31 PM]
not just that but per this topic Pre-Existence before the Katabolé – Satan’s war with God http://howlongolord.com/?p=392
John Kissinger [01/02/2016 3:31 PM]
The Katabolé – Satan’s war with God Who are the Morning Stars? The Overthrow – In Revelation 12:4 “stars” are symbols of angels. The source for the story of the Katabol (é) is scripture. The Story starts in Ezekiel 28 The story continues in Isaiah 14 God Destroys the Earth Age 2 Peter 3:5 Lets us know about the first and second earth ages Jeremiah 4: 26 describes in details of how the age is destroyed Genesis – The New Beginning The Ongoing War Corruption of Eve – Gensis 3 Nephilim (Fallen Angels) Seedline corruption – Genesis 6 Abraham’s wife taken by Pharaoh – Genesis 12 Israel in Egypt – All babies killed (Moses spared) – Exodus 1 Herod – All babies killed (Jesus) – Matthew 2 False Christian teaching (Modern Times) – Matthew 24 Antichrist – Revelation, Daniel http://howlongolord.com/?p=125
Mark Gonzales [01/03/2016 12:16 AM]
Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth:
Mark Gonzales [01/03/2016 12:16 AM]
that was the overtrown. But the earth wasent formed Yet
Mark Gonzales [01/03/2016 12:16 AM]
??
