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Can one be a Pentecostal Calvinist?
Indeed this is an interesting question. James K. A. Smith, Associate Professor in the Department of Philosophy at Calvin College writes on this topic as he shares his own thinking and experience on the issue in this Christianity Today Article: Teaching a Calvinist to Dance. Here is an excerpts to get your curiosity going
Rick Wadholm Jr [07/27/2015 1:57 PM]
Brian Fulthorp’s post is about 7 years old now. š James Smith is always well worth the read.
Timothy Carter [07/27/2015 5:06 PM]
Yes one of the most well respected professor at Lee University is the late Dr Don Badle. Dr was a Pentecostal and a Calvinist. He was a professor of GREEK NEW TESTAMENT and other core classes in the Region development.
Timothy Carter [07/27/2015 5:09 PM]
It is not the doctoran that saves you it is THE CHRIST.
Charles Page [07/27/2015 7:16 PM]
Bowdle was Keswick reformed and was not a Calvinist.
Brody Pope [07/28/2015 12:09 PM]
Ehhhh, probably not.
John Kissinger [07/30/2015 1:55 PM]
short answer – NO [long answer coming up tomorrow]
John Earp [07/30/2015 2:14 PM]
Some are Calvinistic, certainly, but I personally can’t see how one can consistently hold to a Calvinistic worldview at the same time as holding to Pentecostal theology. At its core, Pentecostal theology affirms personal responsibility/freewill, a God who is truly touched with the feelings of our infirmities, Who genuinely responds to prayer (contra the Unmoved Mover idea of most classical theology including Augustine and Calvin), and Who genuinely desires all sinners to be saved.
John Kissinger [07/30/2015 2:16 PM]
Godās choice not to act graciously toward others when God could, denies the goodness of God or at least impugns the reputation of God as a God of love and grace and goodness. How can God call us to love our enemies and God not do the same? How can God be capable of saving all and not save all if it is Godās choice and not ours?
Timothy Carter [07/30/2015 2:45 PM]
Charles Page YOU Do not know everything! Including what is inside my heart. I am not full of hate. You have proven that you don’t know what you are talking about. Many of us on on this site knew Dr Bowdle personally. He is definitely a Christian. And he said out of his own mouth that he is Calvinist. YOU DON’T KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT as usual!!!! And at his funeral Dr Paul Con president of Lee University said that Dr Bowdle is a Calvinist. Charles Page you anti Pentecostal you and your worped theoloy don’t know what you are talking about.
Charles Page [07/30/2015 7:35 PM]
I knew Dr Bowdle personally and his own words to me were he is Keswick Reformed. Neither of us are full of hate.
Ricky Grimsley [07/30/2015 8:17 PM]
I dont see how
Donald McLeod Carmont [07/30/2015 9:20 PM]
I am!
Ricky Grimsley [07/30/2015 9:34 PM]
All five points?
Donald McLeod Carmont [07/30/2015 9:41 PM]
3/5
Ricky Grimsley [07/30/2015 9:50 PM]
Well then then you probably have a bigger fan club than me. I am mostly an open-theist but i feel that god does have a predestined elect that really dont get to choose to fulfill parts of his plan. I never bought into god wooing all people the same. Obviously paul, john, the baptist, jeremiah and on and on had different experiences than me. You cant say that john was filled with the holy ghost from the womb and then say god treats us all the same.
Ricky Grimsley [07/30/2015 9:52 PM]
Calvanism makes more sense than armenianism to me. I agree with james white when he says that the only consistent Armenian is an open theist.
Jon Ray
No. The answer is NO. End of story! Both theological systems are incomparable…
Varnel Watson
Have to agree. Reformed theology and Pentecostal power have split long time ago never to meet again Henry Volk The ones who feel are predestined Pentecostals are part of a growing movement that has for centuries now maintained that although God would bless all with salvation, the presence of faith in Christians (which is not present in others) āallowsā God to bless them so. http://talkingpentecostalism.blogspot.com/2009/04/pentecostalism-and-predestination-why.html
Henry Volk
Calvin had a more developed Pneumatology than Luther, however it was totally with regards to soteriology.
Varnel Watson
Calvin. Pneumatology. Hm. Left me wondering there. Although he speaks frequently of the Person and work of the Holy Spirit in his Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin did not reserve a chapter exclusively to this theme http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/leithart/2011/04/calvins-pneumatology Charles Page Bowdle was Keswick reformed and was not a Calvinist.
Charles Page
true
Varnel Watson
I personally canāt see how one can consistently hold to a Calvinistic worldview at the same time as holding to Pentecostal theology. Henry Volk David Rollings David M. Hinsen
Charles Page
Bowdle was a conflicted theologian.
Henry Volk
Individual synthesis. Although, I’m not a Calvinist, so I’m not sure how they would work it out
David M. Hinsen
Isn’t our friend in Charlotte a reformed pentecostal brother?
Varnel Watson
Loran?
Charles Page
Livingston?
Charles Page
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cK961zzwnRw
David M. Hinsen
Yes. I had a class at Lee with a gentleman that was pastoring a Church of God in NC who was also a reformed pentecostal. It made for interesting conversation while discussing TULIP.
Melvin Harter
Charles Page, I stand in total opposition to Lorain’s statement. I believe there needs to be more shouting, running and praising God in our services. I am a little surprised with him taking his position, being he came up with the rest of us when the Holy Ghost fell upon the people. But as you know, people, and especially preachers, change over the years and they are not what they once were. So sad.
Melvin Harter
The problem that I have with those who take Loran’s position is they want to teach the Word all the time. They have been doing it for nearly 40 years. So my question is, When do we finally graduate from their teaching schools? When we die, dead?
Melvin Harter
The sad fact is that most all Pentecostal preachers are still failing in what Jesus commanded us to do. Heal the sick, cast out Devils, raise the dead.
Greg Robinson
Sure, one can be both!!! After all, if you’re predestined to be converted and operate in the gifts, you can hardly run from from the irresistible grace pushing you toward such perseverance! ? sorry, couldn’t resist!!
Don Kammer
I guess it depends on how close minded you wish to be . . . . There you go now .
David M. Hinsen
I’ve always taken the position that predestination was God’s overall plan for mankind from the beginning or even before instead of a culling of the herd. And Greg Robinson, that’s a great response!
Don Kammer
Then, there is another view, “Wesley viewed himself as preaching against extreme Calvinism, believing that it was not possible to hold to lesser degrees of the terrible doctrines – in other words, it was all or nothing: either God chose us for salvation or damnation, or we chose him.” Richard Turbull, “Reviving the Heart”
Charles Page
Loran believes that people are predestined to the lake of fire
Varnel Watson
At last not all 5 points Calvinism Ricky Grimsley
Charles Page
5 point calvinism is hyper-Calvinism
Varnel Watson
Normal 5. Hyper must be 6 or 7 on a 10 point scale
Varnel Watson
āAll five points? I dont see howā said Ricky Grimsley āI am 3/5!ā responded Donald McLeod Carmont āWell then then you probably have a bigger fan club than me. I am mostly an open-theist but i feel that god does have a predestined elect that really dont get to choose to fulfill parts of his plan. I never bought into god wooing all people the same. Obviously paul, john, the baptist, Jeremiah and on and on had different experiences than me. You cant say that john was filled with the holy ghost from the womb and then say god treats us all the same.Calvanism makes more sense than armenianism to me. I agree with James white when he says that the only consistent Armenian is an open theist.ā finalized Ricky Grimsley
Ricky Grimsley
Who is this Grimsley person you speak of? Lol
Varnel Watson
If FB is correct seems to be you about a year ago 7/30/2015! http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/can-one-be-a-pentecostal-calvinist/
Ricky Grimsley
Lol
Charles Page
Grimsley stole Xmas
Varnel Watson
Henry Volk Calvin held the New Testament view that the Holy Spirit
generally acted behind the scenes, as an agent of the Trinity. Although his actions were clearly perceptible, those who should always receive the pre-eminence were the Father and the Son. This conviction is reflected in Calvin’s works and in his approach to various theological themes. There is practically no theological subject in which Calvin does not refer to the work of the Holy Spirit. His pneumatology is developed within the other areas of systematic theology, such as theontology etc/ At the same time as he directs the Church to guard itself from an interpretation of Scripture which comes from the mistaken hermeneutical principles of the Neo-pentecostal experience, the Church also warns against an intellectualized and dry interpretation of Scripture, which forgets the necessary illumination of the Spirit for their comprehension and that God promises to teach those who seek to walk in righteousness and holiness with him
Henry Volk
I would say that’s a consequence of Western Triadology generally. For instance, take Augustine’s classic analogy of Father as Lover, the Son as Beloved, and the Spirit as the Love between them. It’s a beautiful analogy, except that it depersonalizes the Spirit. Once the doctrine of Double Procession was codified, or rather “canonized”, as official Western doctrine, the West would have a harder time describing the Spirit’s role in the immanent Trinity and in the economy of salvation. The Western Mystics didn’t face this trouble and neither did the Eastern Church.
Varnel Watson
Many Presbyterians consider themselves Calvinists and Reformed,
but how many actually realize the implications of the Reformed Calvinist teaching about the work of the Spirit for the Neo-pentecostal practices that are accepted in many of our churches?
Melvin Harter
Troy Day, They sure can. Look at the AoG. That is what they are.
Varnel Watson
AG? We are not Calvinists! But if you are referring to disregarding sanctification you may be right after all http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/sanctification-in-the-assemblies-of-god/
Varnel Watson
cogop has also revised their view of SANCTIFICATION recently http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/current-2016-church-of-god-of-prophecy-revised-view-of-sanctification/
Stan Wayne
Silly question – unrelated universes
Jon Ray
Not according to Pentecostal theologians. Many are looking for ways to reconcile Pentecostalism with new-reformed. What is unrelated there? Love the picture BTW has nothing to do with the subject Charles Page
Charles Page
I believe that Loran Livingston is a reformed CoG pastor.
Ricky Grimsley
The only reformed Cog pastors are the ones who got out of prison
Charles Page
I believe they would agree with that!!! š
Stephen Lennstrom
Hey all, never commented before but I thought I would on this one. I consider myself Reformed and am a Pentecostal pastor. Obviously I don’t think it is inconsistent. Pentecostalism emphasizes the sovereignty of God to heal broken bodies, to change the spiritual realm and to reverse what we would call “natural law.” It makes sense that this sovereignty has no limit except that which the Divine has limited. And, quite frankly, if you start with T (which you would have to take up with Augustine), U, I and P follow quite quickly. I’m not convinced L is a necessity and don’t hold it myself. All this to say, they are very consistent. I’d be happy to explicate if anyone is so inclined.
Charles Page
thanks, I pretty well have TULIP nailed down
Ricky Grimsley
Charles Page
Calvinism is very difficult to explain. TULIP is simple and plain. It is like chocolate -not hard to understand just a question of if you like it or not!
Varnel Watson
Calvinism is very simple to explain – it’s NOT the Bible. There!
Varnel Watson
just like asking how many oneness theologians – no such thing Philip Williams
Philip Williams
Troy Day A Pentecostal cannot be a Calvinist and a Calvinist cannot be s Pentecostal. They serve different Gods. As Wesley informed George Whitefield, āYour God is my Devil.ā
Varnel Watson
been trying to tell Mike Pickett Henry Volk Steve Losee but oh well… Why Calvinists Should Accept Arminius – I still cant find a good reason for them NOT to http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/why-calvinists-should-accept-arminius/
Steve Losee
I’m an ArCalmivinianist: God IS sovereign and we ARE all responsible.
Joshua Peter Phillips
That isnāt the full story with Wesley and Whitfield. The both considered each other brothers in Christ and thought very highly of each other. When Whitfield died Wesley expresses how much he admired Whitfield as a Christian and a preacher.
Joshua Peter Phillips
That is just Arminianism, if someone thinks that we choose without any outside influence of God that is Pelagianism, not Arminianism. Anytime someone tries to combine what they think Arminianism is and Calvinism, they just get original Arminianism.
Nelson Banuchi
Steve Losee No such thing as a “ArCalmivinianist.” They’re like water and oil, as far as soteriology is concerned. It would be like believing in a self-contradiction, like a circle is square or a square is a circle.
Toby Lee Fricks
NO
Joe Absher
I have been either very forgetful or very ignorant. until recently I couldn’t image such a thing. Calvinist and Pentecostal to me is contrast in terms. As the basic premise of Pentecost is synergism.
To be fair there are others that “get filled” with the spirit and hold to their denomination and beliefs.
Derrick Stokes
What exactly do you mean by Calvinist? Do you mean Reformed? Do you mean the 5 points? Do you just mean being a predestinarian?
In Reformed circles there are definitely differences between the 3.
Joshua Peter Phillips
It is possible to be a Five-Point Calvinist when it comes to salvation and be a Pentecostal. It is impossible to be Reformed in sense that you hold strictly to the Reformed confessions and be Pentecostal. The Reformed Confessions when interpreted in their original context are Cessationist. So I am Calvinist in the first sense but not in the second.
Kelly Crites
Joshua Peter Phillips ?
Alan Smith
Are you Calvinist of you ONLY agree with anything less than all 5 points of TULIP?
Varnel Watson
neither I am a Calvinist NOR I agree with TULIP
Tom Steele
What I am trying to figure out is why this post about Calvinism is displaying a picture of Charles Finney.
Varnel Watson
Tom Steele good question to ask FB sometimes
Max Steed
The authority of the believer in Christ is taken away by the monotheism of the so called reform doctrines of Grace. This is The evil genusā final plan to keep the Body of Christ in defeat as much as possible.
āSatan you are rebuked by the power of Christ in me!ā Greater is He in me … The very authority that raised Jesus from the dead resides in me.
How many Calvinist do you hear speak like this?
Paul L. King
First of all, most Keswick Reformed leaders were Calvinist. Keswick was more or less the Calvinist Holiness Revival version of Wesleyan sanctification. Most Keswick leaders combined the Calvinist progressive view of sanctification along with a crisis experience of sanctification, often called the baptism in the Spirit. Whereas Wesleyans viewed sanctification as eradication of the old man, early Keswicks usually viewed sanctification as suppression of the old man. That language began to be replaced by the language of counteraction–sanctification counteracts the flesh and the old man. Later Keswick became more Calvinist/Reformed, downplaying the crisis experience. John Stott’s book Baptism and Filling of the Holy Spirit represents the later Keswick view. Broader than Keswick was the Higher Life Movement, of which Keswick was but one branch, although they are often confused and viewed synonymously. William Boardman, a Presbyterian, wrote The Higher Christian Life in 1858 as a Reformed alternative to Wesleyan crisis of sanctification. He viewed the baptism in the Spirit as stepping into the Higher Christian Life. Hannah Whitall Smith embraced this view (in her classic The Christian’s Secret of a Happy Life) and they both spoke at the initial Keswick Holiness Conventions in 1874 and 1875, from which Keswick was birthed. They (along with A.B. Simpson) taught sanctification and the baptism in the Spirit more as the law of lift. F.B. Meyer (Baptist), Oswald Chambers (Baptist), Watchman Nee (Brethren), and Andrew Murray (Dutch Reformed) are usually considered Keswick, but are more rightly considered Higher Life, as they taught the law of lift rather than suppression. A.B. Simpson differed from Keswick and Wesleyan views, using the law of lift concept and abiding in Christ (The Christ Life) overcoming the law of sin and death. Meyer, Chambers, Murray and Simpson would have been more Calvinist leaning, but not extremely or adamantly so.
Jim Price
Very good explanation. I attended a Keswick retreat in Canada in 1964.
Varnel Watson
Jim Price always knew something wrong with you š
Betty Gilliam
Paul L. King thank you for this great overview. I have not read on the higher life movement in awhile.
Paul L. King
Personally, I am more like A.W. Tozer, who described himself as an “equivocating Calvinist.” I grew up in a hyper-Arminian background (getting saved all over again every few weeks, which our motto, “Every other day with Jesus is sweeter than the day before.”). It was rather schizophrenic. Then I went to a hyper-Calvinist Reformed Presbyterian college where I got into a fist fight with my Baptist PK (Preacher’s Kid) roommate over Calvinism and Arminianism and he believed he was eternally secure and could shack up and do drugs and get drunk.
Varnel Watson
most Keswick Reformed leaders were Calvinist and look how far they got with Pentecostalism and finished work š
Paul L. King
The original Pentecostal movement with Parham and Seymour followed Wesleyan sanctification, believing a person had to be sanctified before receiving the baptism in the Spirit with tongues. Durham was a Baptist Keswick finished work Pentecostal who believed no sanctifying experience was necessary. Seymour and Durham clashed, and Seymour locked Durham out of his church prophesying that Durham would die within a year if his doctrine was false. Durham died within a year, but Durham’s view won the day in some circles, and Keswick finished work teaching was the basis for the formation of the Assemblies of God (even though they ultimately became Arminian in belief) and the Foursquare and Open Bible Churches. Other Pentecostal groups maintained the Wesleyan view of a crisis of sanctification first before the baptism in the Spirit with tongues (Pentecostal Holiness, Pentecostal Church of God, Church of God in Christ, etc.). My background (the Christian and Missionary Alliance) views the baptism/filling of the Spirit as a crisis sanctifying experience, but not Wesleyan eradication or Keswick suppression/counteraction.
Varnel Watson
followed Wesleyan sanctification is RIGHT and should continue to follow the same IMO – what do you think?
Charles Page
Donald Bowdle led the Church of God in Keswick Reformed Pentecostalism and away from Wesleyanism.
Timothy Staggs
Yes
Alan Smith
Timothy Staggs please explain
Miller Isaac
That guy’s a zombie ?āāļø for sure or a vampire maybe or a zombie vampire!?āāļø
Nelson Banuchi
Unless I’m mistaken there are already, if not Pentecostal, at least, Charismatic Calvinists like D.A. Carson, R.T Kendall, and Sam Storms of which I am aware. These men have also written books on the subject of the Holy Spirit in relation to the charisma.
Also, in Wikipedia, it reads, “New Calvinism is generally continuationist with regard to spiritual gifts” (see “New Calvinism”).
Also, there are many more, so it seems: See: https://www.calvinistcorner.com/list.htm
Paul L. King
Nelson Banuchi yes, you are correct.. John Piper would be another recent one. But Charismaticc Calvinists are not new. First Presbyterian in Pittsburgh hosted Kathryn Kuhlman meetings in the 1960s. Presbyterian seminary professor J. Rodman Williams received the baptism in the Spirit about the same time and wrote the first charismatic systematic theology, Renewal Theology. Corrie Ten Boom was Dutch Reformed and spoke in tongues
Nelson Banuchi
Paul L. King Good to know. Of course, we also know from history that many past revivals were carried on by many Calvinists as well as non-Calvinists.
I appreciate your comments on Christian history. Its good to know these things, and know them as accurately as one can.
Nelson Banuchi
Also see: https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2018/january-february/rise-of-reformed-charismatics.html
Nelson Banuchi
We do need to encourage any Charismatic/Pentecostal Calvinists we find since, while they might be growing in number, so might the criticism’s from hard-core Calvinists who can’t get their faith beyond what they themselves believe: https://pulpitandpen.org/2016/11/30/why-being-a-charismatic-calvinist-shouldnt-be-a-thing/
Varnel Watson
its not
Louise Cummings
I canāt see how they are Pentecostal if they donāt believe in it. They might believe in being born again. But if they donāt believe in Speaking in Other Tongues , as the Spirit gives the utterance. I canāt see how they believe in Pentecost. Now I know that all was done away with when The Apostles were gone. They use the Scripture. About where there be Tongues, it shall pass away. They use that Scripture. But in the same verse. It says where there be Knowledge. It shall vanish away. We we Knowledge is stronger than it ever Ben. It hasnāt ceased. Nether has Tongues. And the rest of that Scripture. Thatās taking about when we get to Heaven. We wonāt need to preach , or use the Gifts of the Spirit in Heaven. Because there wonāt be any need to preach. No sinners will be there to need them.
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi encourage any Charismatic Calvinists to become Pentecostal
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/was-progressive-sanctification-introduced-by-pentecostal-calvinists/
Denis Herve Mercier
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJZ8J3uJKkU
Varnel Watson
is this related or just spam?
Denis Herve Mercier
Bible truth!
Varnel Watson
about what?
Denis Herve Mercier
One GOD, baptized in the name of JESUS CHRIST recieving the HOLY GHOST speaking in tongues as the SPIRIT gives the utterances and HOLINESS living. Bibleical truth.
Varnel Watson
Denis Herve Mercier are you entirely sanctified yet?
Varnel Watson
what do you think Philip Williams RichardAnna Boyce
RichardAnna Boyce
if you are a Biblicist you can only be a Pentecostal Free Gracer š
Varnel Watson
here is a good one for you Philip Williams
Here is an excerpts to get your curiosity going:
There, in that Pentecostal church in Stratford, Ontarioāonce home to Aimee Semple McPhersonāGod showed up. Encountering him in ways I hadnāt experienced or imagined before, God shook my intellectual framework and rattled my spiritual cage at the same time.
But let me add one more layer to this story: Just as I was being immersed in the Spiritās activity and presence in Pentecostal spirituality and worship, I started a masterās degree in philosophical theology at the Institute for Christian Studies, a graduate school in the Dutch Reformed tradition at the University of Toronto. So my week looked a bit odd: Monday to Friday I was immersed in the intellectual resources of the Reformed tradition, diving into the works of Calvin, Kuyper, and Dooyeweerd.
Then on Sunday weād show up at the Pentecostal church where, to be honest, things got pretty crazy sometimes. It was a long way from Toronto to Stratford, if you know what I meanāabout the same distance from Geneva to Azusa Street.
For a lot of folks, that must sound like trying to inhabit two different space-time continuums. But I never experienced much tension between these worlds. Of course, my church and academic world didnāt bump into one another. Dooyeweerd and Jack Hayford donāt often cross paths. But in a way, I felt that they met in meāand they seemed to fit. I experienced a deep resonance between the two. In fact, I would suggest that being charismatic actually makes me a better Calvinist; my being Pentecostal is actually a way for me to be more Reformed.
Lyndsey Dunn
RichardAnna Boyce Is love in any relationship āfreeā or is it reciprocal. Basic logic shows no relationship is one sided. The new covenant is still a covenant relationship. To enter into a marriage for example is not a one sided agreement. A young lady may be loved by many suitors but chooses one exclusively. This is the danger of āfree graceā. It leaves no responsibility on the bride and the bride is āfreeā of any covenant boundaries. Do you love God? He loves you, but a relationship takes two. He is a jealous God (Duet. 4:24). Now, Jesus is relentless in his pursuit just as in Hosea, but at some point we have to love God back. He loved us while we were sinners so we could no longer be sinners. Not mystically in representation only but literally free from sin in true repentance in reciprocal pursuit of him. Luke 9:23 shows us it cost everything everyday to be a disciple. That is far from āfree.ā Jesus said it plainly in John 14.
V.15 āIf you love me, keep my commands.
V.21 Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.ā
V. 23 Jesus replied, āAnyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them.
V. 24 Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.
Lyndsey Dunn
RichardAnna Boyce Even Calvinist shudder at the idea of āfree graceā Antinomianism.
RichardAnna Boyce
Lyndsey Dunn Free Grace is NOT antinomianism, but i am sure they would be flattered that you attack them incorrectly. I suggest you read their non denominational scholarly Biblical 1000s of articles brother faithalone.org
Lyndsey Dunn
RichardAnna Boyce Still havenāt met one antinomian who isnāt in denial of such.
RichardAnna Boyce
Free Grace are Biblicists and ignore philosophy of ignorance brother.
Lyndsey Dunn
RichardAnna Boyce Read the history of the Puritans, Ann Hutchinson, and the development of the Antinomians free grace movement. It was an antinomian over-correction in an attempt to escape legalistic practice amongst the puritans.
RichardAnna Boyce
Lyndsey Dunn Antinomians free grace movement is nothing to do with Free Grace movement of Lewis Sperry Chafer, Thomas Constable, Charles Bing, David Anderson, , Joseph Dillow, Michael A. Eaton, Tony Evans, Zane C. Hodges, R. T. Kendall, G. H. Lang, R. Larry Moyer, Robert P. Lightner, Dwight Pentecost, Earl Radmacher, Charles C. Ryrie, Charles Swindoll, and Robert N. Wilkin.
Lyndsey Dunn
RichardAnna Boyce you can not teach dispensationalism in free grace without standing on an Antinomian soapbox. Impossible! This is foundational to the logic of your beliefs. But you already know that.
RichardAnna Boyce
Lyndsey Dunn God’s promises on eternal security are not antinomian.
Lyndsey Dunn
RichardAnna Boyce There are no promises in Godās word on eternal security except for those who finish the race well.
RichardAnna Boyce
The Bible teaches eternal security in many different ways.
The Bible speaks with certainty about the possession of a new life
based solely upon faith in Christ as Savior. John 3: 1-16; 5: 24; 10: 28; 20: 31 2.
The Bible refers to this life as āeternalā which means forever
and implies no interruption. John 10: 28; 11: 25-26 3.
Since salvation by grace essentially means that it is a gift,
then it is an unconditional gift, which does not depend on a personās works, conduct or condition after salvation. Rom. 3: 24; 4: 5; Eph. 2: 8-9 4.
Bible teaches Godās predestining purpose and initial justification result in eventual glorification without exception for every believer. Rom. 8: 29-30; Eph. 1: 4-5 5.
Bible presents eternal salvation as a legal and binding relationship with God that cannot be separated by anyone (including ourselves) or anything. Rom 8:1, 31-39 Bible presents eternal salvation as an irrevocable filial relationship to the Father by adoption, which results in eternal blessings. John 17: 3; Rom. 8: 15-17; Gal. 3: 26 7.
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Who guarantees our glorification.
2 Cor. 1: 22; Eph. 1: 13-14; 4: 30 8.
We are kept secure by the power of both the Father and the Son.
John 10: 28-30; 17: 9-12; Jude 24 9.
Since all of our sins (past, present, future) are forgiven by Jesus Christ and His eternally sufficient sacrifice, there is no sin that can cause us to lose our relationship to Him. Col. 2: 13-14; Heb. 10: 12-14 10.
The intercessory prayers of Jesus Christ and His advocacy when we sin
guarantee that our salvation will be completed eternally.
John 17: 9-12, 24; Heb. 7: 25; 1 John 2: 1 11.
Bible speaks of salvation in the passive voice, which indicates that the causality is not with us, but with God; therefore, it is based upon His work not ours.
Eph. 2: 5, 8; 2 Thess. 2: 10; 1 Tim. 2: 4 12.
The Bible demonstrates by example (Abraham, David, Israel) and by precept that God is faithful to His eternal promises even when we are not.
Ps. 89: 30-37; Rom. 3: 3-4; 4: 16; 2 Tim. 2: 13
Lyndsey Dunn
RichardAnna Boyce ? Eternal Security is famously Antinomian! Without Antinomian sentiment the argument falls apart. The proper view is one that requires new birth, holiness, sanctification, a true call to repentance. These are two opposing views. You can not argue away your stance by denying your theological values when it is convenient in order to avoid Antinomian accusations.
Lyndsey Dunn
RichardAnna Boyce You literally just presented An Antinomian argument for eternal security.
RichardAnna Boyce
Lyndsey Dunn, i am persuaded by the weakness of your preconceived ideas because you present no Biblical answers.
Lyndsey Dunn
RichardAnna Boyce In Christianity, an antinomian is one who takes the principle of salvation by faith and divine grace to the point of asserting that the saved are not bound to follow the moral law contained in the Ten Commandments.
Lyndsey Dunn
RichardAnna Boyce it is popular for Free Grace believers to discount the relevance of not only the Ten Commandments bit also most of the Old Testament. Even worse many discount the very teachings of Jesus as pre new covenant and irrelevant to modern believers. AKA heresy.
Denis Herve Mercier
Separated by the SPIRIT of our LORD JESUS CHRIST. To live for JESUS our GOD.
Varnel Watson
what is The First Church of our LORD JESUS CHRIST of Apostle GINO JENNINGS ???
Denis Herve Mercier
Holiness. What JESUS wants us to be.
Varnel Watson
Denis Herve Mercier is he a penteostal calvinist?
Denis Herve Mercier
No just HOLINESS, nothing more nothing less.
Varnel Watson
Denis Herve Mercier is he entirely sanctified?
Denis Herve Mercier
He lives The WORD of GOD to the tee. Only GOD knows who is truly sanctified
Denis Herve Mercier
We are surrounded by wolfs in sheep’s clothing.
Varnel Watson
Denis Herve Mercier really? where about?
Denis Herve Mercier
everywhere all religions. I had some in pulpit of my UPCI church. Everywhere
Denis Herve Mercier
Mine meaning the church I attended
Denis Herve Mercier
When we are truly repented, Born of the SPIRIT and of the water, Acts 2:38. When we are truly sanctified, truly living in HIS HOLINESS, To stay on what JESUS built, HIS church.
Varnel Watson
Acts 2:38? so you are oneness too?
Denis Herve Mercier
YES
Brady Hall
Troy, are Oneness and Trinitarians brothers in Christ?
Thomas Henry Jr.
Brady Hall nope ā we serve two different gods ā the Trinity is the God in Scripture and Oneness is man-made
Moorehouse Moore
Thomas Henry Jr. your falling into their traps of divide and conquer it does nothing to promote the gospel
Moorehouse Moore
Thomas Henry Jr. both sides explain it differently is the glass of water half full or half empty
I say it is a glass of water
Denis Herve Mercier
You know when I left the trinity church 9 in a half years ago, they hated true preaching. Are you the same way?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams loves Jesus too
Denis Herve Mercier
YES
Denis Herve Mercier
JESUS is GOD!!!
Varnel Watson
Denis Herve Mercier YES So is the Holy Ghost
Denis Herve Mercier
GOD is a SPIRIT, HE is HOLY.
Daniel J Hesse
Agreed only a Spirit filled believer can persevere in joy.
Joshua Peter Phillips
Yes you can and in fact I think it empowers more faith-filled Pentecostalism because you not only have a God who empowers the gifts but is sovereign over all things such that he isnāt even restricted by the human will.
Philip Williams
Joshua Peter Phillips
Thatās so unlike the God of the Bible.
But itās disingenuous to suppose that by giving men freewill, that God is any less sovereign. Heās far greater than the manipulating, controlling Calvinist God. The true God is powerful enough to remain sovereign and accomplish his purposes even though giving his creatures freewill.
Joshua Peter Phillips
Philip Williams do you pray that the Lord would save sinners?
Philip Williams
Joshua Peter Phillips I do. He might grant that for some of his children. I donāt doubt that I myself am the product of many prayers.
But according to the Calvinists, our fate has already been decided whether we pray or not.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Joshua Peter Phillips do you pray for sinners to get saved ??? WELL Calvin and Luther didnt neither did they believe in missions – whats the point they said …
Joshua Peter Phillips
Troy Day that is simply not true of Calvin. He encouraged prayer and he sent out many missionaries into Catholic Europe.
When we are asking God to save sinners we are asking him to change their hearts and minds not asking him to merely be extra convincing.
I believe we pray because it is a means by which He accomplishes his divine plan just as the cross was sovereignly predestined (Acts 4)
Varnel Watson
Joshua Peter Phillips You are of course referring to Pierre Brully, sent to the Catholic region of the Netherlands and the Venerable Company – I will allow Philip Williams to listen to your argument first namely
Calvin sent missionaries to catholic Christians oh WOW š Gustav Warneck, a sympathetic observer,
said categorically that there was no recognition in Calvin of the church
having a duty to send out missionaries. He averred that the only missionary
responsibility found in Calvin’s thought was in regards to the duty of
the magistrate to introduce the true religion in all his subjects. Warneck’s views have generally been adopted by other writers of Protestant missionary
history.
Gustav Warneck, Outline of a History of Protestant Missions from the Reformation
to the Present Time, trans. by George Robson (New York: Fleming H .
Revell Company, 1901)
Why am I NOT a Calvinist? REASON #3 MISSIONS
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/why-am-i-not-a-calvinist/
Joshua Peter Phillips
Troy Day As Pentecostals we have more in common with Reformed Christians then we do Catholics. Not only that, Catholicism at the time cannot be called Christian in any true sense. And you hold up Warneck’s work which was written in 1901 – Recent sources have well debunked this. check out this resources – https://www.imb.org/2017/06/13/john-calvin-and-missions/
Joshua Peter Phillips
Not to mention the fact that many of the first pioneer missionaries of the first missionary age were Calvinist. It just simply isn’t true that Calvinists aren’t interested in Missions. A Calvinist that doesn’t care about Missions is a bad Calvinist and doesn’t understand the sovereignty of God.
Varnel Watson
Joshua Peter Phillips you are all over the place now Are you arguing about Calvin or Calvinists? It was the very foundation of Luther’s reformation that everyone is a missionary in to the city where God predestined them to be born into
WHO would calvinators preach salvation to?
Do they know who will be saved and who lost?
What difference makes to preach to the predestined to perdition? Philip Williams
Roc Davis
Gregory James Stokley
Emmett Smith
Ye must be Born again~
Philip Williams
Former Calvinist Leighton Flowers will address all the reasons why Calvinism should be rejected. He knows Calvinism far better than any here.
https://www.youtube.com/user/MrLeightonFlowers
Varnel Watson
does not open – give us the brief on this one
Philip Williams
Troy Day same problem coming from your site.
Google āLeighton Flowers,ā or search on YouTube. Heās very fair and, unlike so many Calvinists, also a very Christian man, but terrifies Calvinists like James White because he knows Calvinism far better than any of them operating today.
Thomas Henry Jr.
I am!!!!
Lyndsey Dunn
Calvinist thought is incompatible with the ideals of pentecostalism. Only a Calvinist would say otherwise.
Varnel Watson
Lyndsey Dunn YES
Thomas Henry Jr.
Lyndsey Dunn well tell the Holy Ghost. I am Calvinist and I cast out demons and speak in tongues. My theology lines up with Paul, Augustine and the rest. Iām thankful you arenāt God.
Steve Losee
the “Sovereign Grace” churches think so.
Varnel Watson
ALSO incompatible with the ideals of pentecostalism. Only a Calvinist would say otherwise.
Varnel Watson
the great German missiologist Gustav Warneck spoke of āthe strange silenceā of the Reformers in regard to missionary duty. This āsilenceā could be, he said,accounted for satisfactorily only by the fact that the recognition of the missionary obligation was itself absent. We miss in the Reformers not only missionary action, but even the idea of missions, in the sense in which we understand them today. And this not only because the newly discovered heathen across the sea lay almost wholly beyond the range of their vision,ā¦but because fundamental theological views hindered them from giving their activity, and even their thoughts, a missionary direction. #THERE Philip Williams Joshua Peter Phillips
Moorehouse Moore
69 /96 depends on which side your standing in reality your both right
Varnel Watson
your statement says a lot to amount to much of nothing Instead of 69 is probably 00
calvinist theology is 0 theology – amounts to nothing
to state calvinist Pentecostalism is 00 – annulling both
Gerardo de Dominicis
Charles Spurgeon āthe prince of preachersā was a reformed (Calvinist) Baptist and operated under the gift of word of knowledge (he didnāt call
It that way but he wrote about it). God is sovereign and he gifts his children the way he wants, regardless of our theological background. He is not limited by our boundaries and the first great missionaries were calvinists: George Whitefield, Carey, David Livingston and others.
Varnel Watson
were any of them Pentecostal?
Did they speak in tongues ?
Gerardo de Dominicis
Troy Day if you define someone as Pentecostal only because they speak in tongues, then catholic charismatics are Pentecostals, Hindus are Pentecostals and some voudu believers are Pentecostals. I think the focus is not if you speak or not in tongues but if you show a demonstration of the Spirit and power, regardless if is healings, tongues, word of knowledge, prophecy, etc.
Varnel Watson
calvinators are some crazy bunch
Anonymous
It is possible to hold to certain elements of both, but It is logically inconsistent to fully embrace both systems.
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey which ones concretely? Alan Smith Kyle Williams holds all
Anonymous
Troy Day it’s why I abandoned Pentecostalism…
Anonymous
Troy Day particular vs corporate election,
cessation vs continuism,
limited vs unlimited atonement, depravity vs inability,
eternal security vs security of the believer.
Anonymous
No.
Pentecostal theology is an aberration.
Calvinism affirms the sovereignty of God and the doctrines of grace.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess Calvinism has sent more ppl to hell than any other fake teaching out there Melvin Harter Link Hudson affirm sanctification is needed
Anonymous
To be Calvinist, must one believe all 5-points of TULIP?
Like Partial Preterists is there an allowable arena for partial Calvinism?
If you say yes, next is how many of Tulip do you to believe in order to be labeled Calvinist?
NEXT…
How many theological beliefs make you Pentecostal?
Anonymous
well now this is a good one Duane L Burgess says NO but you say that you could be on some of the 5 points – what points would that be then? Kyle Williams could not migrate it and went hyperCalv in their discussions boards
Anonymous
if this BE true Alan Smith Michael Chauncey may be yall can teach Duane L Burgess Kyle Williams to dance in the SPIRIT, which the later one did @ 1 time but NOT Philip Williams – he is only concern with how the pope dances on sabbath https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/teaching-a-calvinists-to-dance-in-the-spirit/
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m a lousy dancer, that’s why I play the piano.
Anonymous
Troy Day my mother could not dance until the Spirit moved on her. But when that happened, the worship was electric.
I know Teresa Gardner who pioneered liturgical dancing among the Charismatics. She would have preferred the way my mother danced in the Spirit. Actually, they did once meet.
Anonymous
no
Anonymous
Be alert at all times.