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Steve Webb | PentecostalTheology.com
Pentecostal Theology [03/13/2015 12:18 PM]
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/defense-of-pre-tribulation-rapture/
Douglas Cline [03/14/2015 3:18 AM]
I was raised in the Pentecostal tradition, but I do not find evidence in the Scriptures that support a pre-tribulation rapture.
[07/25/2015 7:18 AM]
The first resurrection will take place after the son of perdition is revealed that’s what the scriptures says and that’s what I believe
Jon Ray
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Jerome T Morris
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Ricky Grimsley
To bad he has no scripture to backup his claims. Great jewish lesson though.
Ricky Grimsley
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJVS
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Varnel Watson
General talk from Ricky Grimsley as usual. Cited verses only prove pre-Trib rapture as Paul declared it in 1 Thess. No change in Paul’s theology just like God does not change.
Ricky Grimsley
Lol its clear that paul refers to “the day of the lord” as the rapture and the says it wont come till after the antichrist. Its plain english.
Varnel Watson
It is also clear Paul gives the same talk from 1 Thess about the pre-Trib Rapture of the church. What else would be Paul talking about?
Ricky Grimsley
Where do you get pretrib in 1 Thessalonians?
Varnel Watson
Are you now asking about the gathering together and catching up (1 Thess. 4 & 2 Thess 2) versus being taken away (cf. Jn 14:3) & left in the Olivet Discourse (cf. Lk 17)?
The terminology of the removal of the church from the earth is “catching up” and being “gathered together” with Christ. On the other hand, Matthew 24 speaks about being taken away in judgment. It should be granted that this terminology closely resembles words used of the rapture in 1 and 2 Thessalonians (gathered) and John 14:3 (receive, paralambano), but the association is not exact. The gathering in 1 Thessalonians is gathered together with Christ (and 2 Thess 2:1 by previous reference of 1 Thessalonians 4) whereas the mention in Matthew 24 speaks only of being gathered together by angels, without reference to where the gathering occurs.
The use of paralambano in John 14:3 is dearly in the context of Christ’s coming for His disciples, whereas the paralambano in Matthew 24 is in a strong context of judgment (compare Luke 17:26ff).
It would be well here to mention the mistake of Robert Gundry in arguing that the use of katabano requires coming to the earth in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The word is not consistently used this way in the literature. Moreover the figure of a king coming to rescue His people, fight a war, and victoriously entering into an enemy city to rule fits well the coming in two aspects of rescue and revelation, with a war in between.
Ricky Grimsley
Paul clearly tells you that the “day of the lord” is the judgment and that the judgement begins withe the rapture but that none of it starts till the antichrist is revealed. The mistake all pretibbers makes is not knowing the difference between the wrath of man, satan, and God.
Varnel Watson
Where? 1 Thessalonians begins with a statement of deliverance for the people of God from the coming wrath (1:10). Such an idea is present in both chapters 4 and 5 when speaking of the church at the coming of Christ. He rescues His people; they are not to endure the wrath He will bring on the earth but will be taken out of harms way. Certainly they could be kept by God through the time of wrath (as are the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish converts), but He has different plans for His bride. On the other hand, the major emphasis in Olivet Discourse is His coming as Son of man to execute judgment and assert the Ps 2, 110 and the Daniel 7 passage kind of Messianic role.
Ricky Grimsley
1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 KJVS
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.1 Thessalonians 5:1-5 KJVS
[1] But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. [2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. [3] For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. [4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Varnel Watson
Paul is simply moving from the specific to the general, from a focus on one part of the whole end times program (the rapture) to the broader picture of “the times and the epochs.” There is no reason to think that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 5:1-11 must be speaking of “precisely the same event” or that taking 1 Thessalonians 5:1-11 as referring to events after the catching up of 4:17 is an instance “special pleading.”
In 1 Thessalonians 4:13 we observe that the apostle has a sense of urgency to explain the matter of the coming of Christ to receive His church in view of the deep concern of the Thessalonians over the death of some of the believers. The experience of the church within its own community, then, is in view, not cataclysmic events occurring in the world or in nature.
On the other hand, Paul the apostle is responding to the matter of the death of saints in view of an eager anticipation of an imminent coming of Christ for His church. The natural discussion centers in the certainty of a future resurrection founded in the redemptive acts of the Savior which takes on an eschatological and apocalyptic dimension, salvation as a future historical event.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
All he is doing I. Thessalonians is giving a different churches H the hope as he gave to the Corinthians
Varnel Watson
It is that simple outline, I suggest, that forms the background to understand the significance of the several passages that teach the rapture of the church, including 1 Thessalonians 4.
The first passage in the New Testament revealing the rapture of the church is found in John 14:1-3 recorded in the very words of the Bridegroom Himself, is a promise to fulfill the tasks of the bridegroom in preparation, and a promise in anticipation of the time of retrieval. “The church is presently the betrothed bride of Christ (2 Cor 11:2).”
The text noted earlier, Ephesians 5, indicates that the Bride, the church is to be active as well, fulfilling her part in the period of preparation (cf. Revelation 19:7b).
Then follows of course the actual retrieval and this is obviously what 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is all about. “Following the analogy of the Oriental practice, the church as the bride now awaits the coming of Christ to take her to Himself (again alluding to John 14:3). The Apostle Paul speaks of this day” in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.
Finally, the retrieval leads to the presentation; only in this case “Christ presents His own bride to Himself. (cf. Eph 5:27) He and no other presents the bride, and He and no other receives her to Himself.” After the presentation, there follows the marriage supper, which is of course indicated in Revelation 19:7-9.
Grover Katzmarek Sr
To believe in this one totally disregards a lot of other scripture like the parable of the wheat and tares, that Christ returns at the last Trump and not until then.
I can’t believe that price so easily swallows this academic hoax of Sir Robert Anderson hook line and sinker.
I Thessalonians 4 is just Paul writing to a different church as he did in Corinthians.
As Paul said to the Galatians, oh foolish people
Varnel Watson
the last Trump and the Trump of God are 2 different things
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Wow. That’s all I’m going to say.
Varnel Watson
Such mid-trib and post-trib logic sounds like the repairman who told us that one of our problems was that we did not have a ‘large’ enough motor on the opener.
I thought for a minute, and said that we had the largest one made at that time, a 1/2 horsepower.
He shook his head and said, ‘You need a 1/4 horsepower.’
I responded that 1/2 was larger than 1/4 and he said, ‘NOOO, it’s not. Four is larger than two.’
We haven’t used that repairman since… On which side of the rapture do you stand Wayne Scott
Ricky Grimsley
There is no logic to rely on here. The scripture is plain.
Varnel Watson
Scripture is plain that time of rapture is unknown. From that point on, any mid-trib or pos-trib that pins the time of the rapture to a certain time frame other than the pre-trib unknown is unBiblical
Grover Katzmarek Sr
Not to those if us that rightly divide the word of truth, not twisting scriptures to fit our doctrines
Ricky Grimsley
That why mid tribulation is wrong but pre-wrath has a period of time ,at least five months, where the rapture is imminent. Again paul said1 Thessalonians 5:4-5 KJVS
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Ricky Grimsley
My favorite line in the-pretrib argument is “god would never beat up his bride…..lol. First the bride of christ is new Jerusalem and second God’s people are gone before God pours out his wrath.
Ricky Grimsley
How come christians are saved from wrath right now?
Ricky Grimsley
Is God beating up his bride in afghanistan?…..no we understand that its the devil……obviously
Varnel Watson
Are you saying Afghanistan is the Great Tribulation: What are you saying exactly?
Ricky Grimsley
Im saying Christians are already facing wrath. They are getting blown up all over the middle east.
Varnel Watson
There’ve been persecutions of the church since day 1 under the Romans Are you considering them too part of the Great Tribulation? This is a very deep preterist slippery slope view
Ricky Grimsley
Its not about Preterism. Its about the people saying we arent appointed to wrath as an excuse to say we dont enter daniels 70th week. When wrath is already happening every where. Just not God’s wrath
Varnel Watson
It is definitely partial historical Preterism if you claim wars today are part of the Great Tribulation
Ricky Grimsley
Im not claiming that. Why cant you listen. Im saying that God’s wrath is at the end and the church leaves before that. However, there is the wrath of man and satan that we will endure. I dont think you understand the “pre-wrath” view.
Varnel Watson
🙂 Sure
Ricky Grimsley
Its obvious. You keep accusing me of saying things i do not say.
Varnel Watson
Just compared your afgani example with the early church in Rome just like Grover Katzmarek Sr did – where do you feel is the difference?
Ricky Grimsley
Because you know im not im not a preterist. Im only saying that its silly to use “god has not appointed us to wrath”as an argument for pre-trib since there is wrath all over the place and has been since christianity started. It just isnt Gods wrath. Just like it isnt in the beginning of the tribulation. That is the wrath of satan and the antichrist. Not gods wrath.
Ricky Grimsley
Daniel 11:32 KJVS
[32] And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits .
Grover Katzmarek Sr
This argument holds no water. Why you ask? Look at what the first century Christians went through, although with all the Christians who sealed their testimonies with their blood.
Now show me any where in the New Testament where it talks about a seven year tribulation period. You can’t it’s just not there.
Varnel Watson
Exactly what I was saying Ricky Grimsley Looks like major confusion in the mid/post-Trib wrath vs Tribulation camp here 🙂
Ricky Grimsley
Jesus plainly mentions the abomination of desolation spoke of by daniel. We know that the abomination of desolation happens in the middle of the seventieth week and that the seventy weeks have not been fulfilled yet because….the seventy weeks were to end sins and finish transgressions and bring in everlasting righteousness…..none if which has not happened. Preterism has many flaws.
Varnel Watson
Grover Katzmarek Sr I did not want to take over the other topic which discuses God’s reasons for pre-Trib rapture, but here is another good one with a solid Biblical defense of pre-Trib rapture as taught by the Bible itself. Are we understanding your positional belief of a brief “hop in the air” Which one is more absurd? Christ returns we hop in the clouds and land back on earth. This is basically the modern-day church hip-hop religious eschatology preached by so many Mickey Mouse preachers out there…