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Tommy Comer |
The worker is worth his wages (1 Tim 5:18). Im not in ministry, but I do YouTube teachings and have no problem with someone donating. |
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Ricky Grimsley |
1 Corinthians 9:13-14 KJVS[13] Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? [14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. |
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James L Alldredge |
Paid / Full Time ministry is scriptural as supported by Jesus calling the disciples to put down their nets and become fishers of men. There is value to a church in having full time ministry in which they are engaging their community 7 days a week. Unfortunately, most of what we call full time ministry is really just administrative busywork that does not meet the standard of ministry. |
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Troy DayYou |
Terry Wiles “Unfortunately, most of what we call full time ministry is really just administrative busywork that does not meet the standard of ministry.” aint that the real truth |
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Terry Wiles |
For a whole lot of hirelings it is certainly true. |
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Troy DayYou |
sometimes I wonder |
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Susan Collins |
I don’t think hirelings particularly care about the mundane administrative side of Ministry but if no one steps up to the plate of service someone has to do it. Church is very much a business these days. |
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James L Alldredge |
The perception that being a minister is a “Sunday” job is crippling to the church. Sunday should be the day we come together to celebrate and share the fruit of that week’s ministry, as well as prepare for the week of ministry ahead. Ministry is what we should be doing in between. |
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Troy DayYou |
James and here’s me thinking Sunday should be a day of rest 🙂 Terry Wiles |
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Terry Wiles |
Lol. After 4 weekend services I can say that Sunday is not a Sabbath. |
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James L Alldredge |
A true Sabbatarian would be offended with your confusing Sunday and the sabbath…😉 |
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Diana Kay Miller Sheek |
Like I tell folks I have both days covered and one extra besides revival, lol. I have church on Sunday at 2, Wednesday at 7:30 and Saturday at 7. All my bases are covered although I say Sunday is the Christian Sabbath because of Jesus rising on the first day of the week which is Sunday. The New Testament says to honor God everyday of the week. |
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Dan Irving |
Everyone seems to apply I Tim 5:18 to monetary remuneration, but that does not appear the language. It is speaking of giving honor to eldership (v.17) and then says, “the laborer is worthy of his reward.” In other places Paul speaks of although being entitled to compensation, rejecting it to safeguard the purity of the work. |
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Diana Kay Miller Sheek |
A workman is worthy of his hire. |
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Joe Absher |
Brother my prayers are with you. Jesus is a Waymaker! |
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Jerome Herrick Weymouth |
Pastors that Desire full-time Ministry got to Build up their churches up some enough money can pay the church’s Bills and pay him a salary. This is just common sense!!! |
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Corky Alexander |
Like Paul, the majority of the world’s ministers are bivocational |
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Jerome Herrick Weymouth |
Yes it is true, I know a man who works part time and draws social security and pastors a small church. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
1 Timothy 5:18For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,†and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.†|
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Diana Kay Miller Sheek |
My former pastor, Bill Wilson, RIP, worked a full time job at Inland Container and took care of his church. He was fired so many times for taking off to perform funerals for his members or call on them in the hospital when the family needed them. In his later pastoring he was receiving 200.00 a week from the church til he retired from his job and it went up a little. He retired from pastoring our church two years ago, and the new pastor was still giving him 1100.00 a month. He passed away in August of this year at the age of 86. I was with him for over 50 years and he was like family. He didn’t want to take a pay from the church because he said the House of the Lord needed it more than he did. Great man of God. He always said a man wasn’t worth much if he woudn’t work and take care of his family. |
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Joe Absher |
Thank you for sharing… |
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Diana Kay Miller Sheek |
They don’t make them like Brother Wilson. He was a true shepherd of his flock and he only went by the Word of God, KJV, and no other. He would get up before day break on Sundays and study his lessons before Sunday School. He would fast til his shoes would fall off his feet, give people his shoes or shirt off his body because they had nothing or holes in their shoes. I have seen him leave church in his sock feet and his t shirt on under his suit jacket because he helped someone else. I have seen miracles and healings under his preaching because he prayed and fasted. He would go out into the woods at the edge of town and pray all night and he would tell of how he would come home at daylight and the dogs in the town would bark at him as he walked home. He was strong believer in paying tithes, prayer, fasting and the Holy Ghost speaking in other tongues. |
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Troy DayYou |
oh blessed hope – God still has a few of those He holds the patent for making them |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
What does the KJV have to do with it? |
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Troy DayYou |
KJV is the standard – pastors that use NLT I have no use for them 🙂 |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I use NKJV mostly |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Can’t stand the KJV |
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Troy DayYou |
but you can stand NKJV? |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Yes because I can read it |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I just don’t like a Bible I can’t read |
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Troy DayYou |
its rare to see someone reading the actual 1611 KJV 🙂 |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
According to Donny Swaggart, the KJV has over 300 errors |
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Troy DayYou |
1611 1st print had that many just in the preface 🙂 According to Jimmy Swaggart, his words are in read in his study Bible just like the words of Jesus 🙂 |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Troy Day yes I know |
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Jerome Herrick Weymouth |
Jimmy Swaggert only uses and endorses the King James Bible!!! Heard Donnie Swaggert say King James Only!!! |
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Troy DayYou |
words in red – cracks me up every time I open mine 🙂 |
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Jerome Herrick Weymouth |
We can’t read the 1611 version because of the misspelled words. We use one that came from a later King James Version…go to King James Bible store on line and read for yourselves. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I was saved, filled with the Spirit, called to preach and discipled as a teenager, ALL by an NIV Bible. I’m pretty sure I’m saved. 😠|
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Troy DayYou |
way head of you – actually own the printed and electronic original 1611 1st print Wonderful morning read with lots of coffee |
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Troy DayYou |
NIV may save you but KJV will sanctify you too Brody Pope 🙂 |
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Joe Absher |
So good to hear these things. Very encouraging. Thank you. The dogs was barking at me just the other day. lol |
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Louise Cummings |
I think he has gotten His reward if he has gone to be with the Lord. But I don’t think the church or the people respect the pastor or the Lord. If when they go to get a job. They expect so much an hour or if it does Or fill their billfold. They won’t take that Nob. But the pastor is praying daily. Studying the Bible to give the people a great message. That will win their family to the Lord. Taking off work to preach funerals and getting home from work tired. Just like your are , and you just want to bath and go to bed. But the pastor is tired also. But he still has hospitals to visit the sick from his church, and be there what ever your need is. And still has to seek God and study the Bible to help your family from being lost. And yet he loves the Lord enough that he doesn’t complain. But you want enough money to go shopping and enjoy life but the pastor. Give him a few dollars. And that’s enough for him. If you don’t give the first ten per cent as Tithe then I think it could be called robing God. Because that belongs to God. Then what you give is an offering. Read Malachi. It tells you that you dwell in ceiled houses. But Rob the House Of God. If your blessings come like some people give. I guess some doesn’t get very many. Then blame the pastor. Now the Bible says give as you were giving to God. If you don’t have it. But you would love to if you had it to give. The Lord tell us if we have to give. We are to help those in need. God doesn’t expect you to do what you can’t do. He says be a cheerful giver. Thank God because God has blessed you abundantly. I’m not a prosperity person. But God does bless if you are a cheerful giver. He says give , and it shall be given unto you. Pressed down , shaken together , and running over. Shall men give unto your bosom. I have never been in a pastors shoes. I’m sure they do what they do willingly. But I’m speaking of our attitude. Maybe I shouldn’t have said all that. But I want you to be blessed. If you are poor and can’t give. God understands. And God Loves you if your heart is right with God. God has no respect of person. He loves them all. It may not sound like it. But I love you too. |
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Michael Todd Combs |
Before you defend any translation, study it’s history thoroughly. The KJV has the most widely quoted scripture of any translation in History. Unfortunately, the KJV is one of the worst translations you can use, thus the NKJV, being based on the KJV, is even worse. The truth is hard to handle at times. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Michael Todd Combs it doesn’t matter. It’s readable |
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Troy DayYou |
Derrick Harmon Give us some more detail Most of us are Ify either way |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Detail? |
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Troy DayYou |
Derrick is asking for a specific situation A normal pastors response is to hear the man before telling him either way |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Scripture is clear on it |
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Troy DayYou |
really? like in freely give or other places? |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I posted a verse |
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Troy DayYou |
the one Dan Irving explained or another one? |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
No one commented on it |
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Troy DayYou |
1 Timothy 5:18 was explained by Dan Irving otherwise and I tend to agree with his exegisis though undecided on the pay/no pay stuff |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
1 cod 9:14Berean Study BibleIn the same way, the Lord has prescribed that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
1 cod 9:14Berean Study BibleIn the same way, the Lord has prescribed that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. |
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Randy Buchanan |
I’ve noticed a couple have referred to Paul as being bivocational without pointing out he was an itinerant apostle, not a bishop assigned to shepherd a particular congregation. The pastor/overseer/bishop would be over a group of believers and was responsible for his witness in the community, to teach, and to open his home as needed. This was not a part time endeavor and during the persecution of Paul’s day, could even be life threatening! One of the most effective ways to discourage early believers in Christ was to attack, torture, maim and kill the leaders. These leaders, knowing the risks and still desiring the position, were truly worthy of their hire! So, my question in return is, vocational or bi-vocational – what are you willing to risk for the answer? |
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Troy DayYou |
but they quoted where he wrote to Timothy who was appointed and followed in Pauls steps |
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Joe Absher |
good point never thought of that. Paul certainly had his own trials and worth… |
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Randy Buchanan |
Troy Day yes and no. In faith, Timothy followed in Paul’s steps. In position, he was a bishop not an apostle. Granted prior to his pastoral responsibilities Timothy traveled with Paul but was anointed to serve. |
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Jerome Herrick Weymouth |
Maybe the folks that just don’t like to give offerings to the church or give it because it might support a full-time Pastor or staff.They like to keep pastors all poor and you know… living in little shacks and so maybe that’s why they’re the ones that are dead set against a pastor being a full-time Ministry.This is a hunch just may be right |
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Ricky Grimsley |
Perhaps we should do a cost analysis and see if we could equate dollars/souls ratio? What if God is actually displeased because we spend so much money on lights, electricity and salaries that it could be better spent on missionary or bibles for china or whatever. Are we being good stewards if we feed a church where few if any souls are saved versus thriving ministries. How many pastors really put in an eight hour day in the word and prayer? |
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Jerome Herrick Weymouth |
Folk sayings Bibles for China. But forget the poor folks here… Feed the poor, cloth the clothes and etc. |
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Derrick Harmon |
(1) I am having difficulty viewing ministry as a “job”. Yes, it is a vocation, a calling. The Church needs leaders, no doubt. (2) |
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Ricky Grimsley |
Obviously we need to help the poor here (rolls eyes) |
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Joe Absher |
I’ve heard it said,”ministry is not 9-5 it’s 5-9.” |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I have Pastored 5 churches. I have never asked how much I was going to be paid before accepting a pastorate. There is the calling and then there is the provision for the calling. |
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Joe Absher |
Proving once again not everybody is a pastor! lol |
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Troy DayYou |
You have just not got to the right church. Nowadays all has to be written on paper before hand or you are setting yourself up |
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Joe Absher |
Mr. Troy DayJesus said: “And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into everlasting habitations.” — Luke 16:9 |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Street Preacherz how does that read I. The NIV? |
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Joe Absher |
Beats me? If you have NIV it can’t be to far off |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Well, since I don’t relate to KJV, I’ll check it out |
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Joe Absher |
Best answer |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Here: Luke 16:9New Living Translation (NLT)9 Here’s the lesson: Use your worldly resources to benefit others and make friends. Then, when your possessions are gone, they will welcome you to an eternal home.[a] |
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Joe Absher |
Go right ahead. I’ll be here when you get back |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Just posted it in NLT. Much easier to comprehend |
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Joe Absher |
I may misunderstand but I’m thinking Jesus is warning about friends that can be bought welcome them to hell |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
That’s not what it says |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Luke 16:9New Living Translation (NLT)9 Here’s the lesson: Use your worldly resources to benefit others and make friends. Then, when your possessions are gone, they will welcome you to an eternal home.[a] |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
How does this relate to a Pastor getting a salary? |
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Joe Absher |
See the above correction pleaseThe text warns of the power of mammon |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Street Preacherz is it wrong to take a salary? |
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Joe Absher |
Sir I may be mistaken on the text. But I’m not convinced that it is as easy as all that to make friends of the world. In fact it seems rather a mockery. Go spend it all and when you’re broke they will receive you to their “eternal home” what eternal home does the world have that I want? NoneThe short answer to your question is an easy no, but “Money is funny.” I may be judged and in the affairs of men that can be a problem. But it seems to me the people that pay salaries can take them also… |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I don’t understand. I’ve been a pastor for 30 plus years and God called me to each church. Every single person must provide for his family |
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Joe Absher |
You are a rare man. I have nothing but love and respect for you. If my remarks imply anything but that I have failed you. I’m sorry. |
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Louise Cummings |
Street Preacherz amen. |
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Joe Absher |
Everybody wants Jesus healing Nobody wants Jesus wounds |
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Louise Cummings |
Great advice. |
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Derrick Harmon |
Here is the sum total for me: Can you answer this question: If ministry is a calling would you do it for free? And if you answer “yes” then why are you taking a salary? And if you answer “no” then why are you in ministry? The other problem I have is that people in the congregation always have something over the preacher “well, I’m not going to pay my tithes” which ultimately hurts the church. Plus, there is always the slightest little bit of doubt that the pastor is just doing it for the money. Pastors who aren’t paid don’t have these problems. And a paid ministry seems to always give the laity the excuse to not do ministry: “well they’re getting paid to do this. This is their job.” |
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Randy Buchanan |
I have been youth counselor, youth director, various bus ministry positions and was a multiple position ministry leader in a small church for which I actually lost money because I sometimes turned down sub teaching requests to go into the church and work. But, I’ve never taken any job because of salary considerations, for some reason, that’s just not been that important. I go for jobs in which I can do good, be passionate and hopefully make a difference. I know I’ve achieved those when I see a customer recall my name and what I did to help them 20 years ago. Or when a boss speaks of a client I’ve helped with job training and I can’t remember them but then I’m told, “they remember you!†For me it’s about the call, passion and compassion. If the money comes, I’m blessed. If I don’t get a raise for 3 years, I’m still blessed. This question is one which must answered individual because each call, each ministry being entered into and each person’s needs are individual. Me, I’d take a salary but that wouldn’t mean would refuse outside employment if that was needed to better support the church or ministry to which I was called. |
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James L Alldredge |
You are confusing motive and means, “If a ministry is a calling CAN you do it for free…” would be the better question. Not everyone is independently wealthy enough to “do it for free” One of the favorite strategies of our enemy is to starve a ministry into irrelevance by denying it the necessary support it requires to make a difference. And before you go there, yes, Jesus was supported by those He ministered to. By denying others the chance to partner with you financially so you can do the work of ministry you are not just hurting yourself, but also denying others the blessing that comes from giving freely and faithfully. |
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Joe Absher |
You guys are saints for sure. The good stuff right there. Honored to be in such company! I crack jokes but I’m serious when it comes serving our Lord. Please don’t be offended if a little light hearted at times. Thanks again. Brother Joe |
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Derrick Harmon |
James L Alldredge In terms of local ministry, I know that the Latter-day Saints do not pay their bishops or ministry leaders. They have a healthy growing church regardless of what label you put on them. My point is not to highlight the Latter-Day Saints as much to say that ministry can be done without paying anyone anything. |
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Susan Collins |
Ministry and Preaching is free but the time is takes to do Administrative work should be given a salary for. Some Pastors preach, marry, bury, counsel, home visits, hospital visits, attend District, State, National events and meetings, make budgets, mail off the bills, clean the Church, do all the lawn care, all the maintenance etc all the while trying to equip the saints for the work of Ministry. So yes a worker is worthy of his/her hire. |
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James L Alldredge |
You are correct in that it can be done either way, ultimately your own conscience as informed by the Holy Spirit should be your guide. I was just pointing out that the biblical model is for those who are ministered to, to support those who minister financially. Clearly this is not intended to be the motivation, merely the means by which the sower and the reaper are united together in kingdom advancement. I respect your willingness to fund your own ministry without the investment of others and pray it will be a great success |
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Joe Absher |
Pastor Clendennen said once “Raise up ten tithing families and live as they do.” |
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Derrick Harmon |
Susan Collins You write an impressive list of all the things that we pay pastors to do. However, all of those things can be done by the congregation, or they can be done free of charge. |
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Derrick Harmon |
James L Alldredge You said something I found important: “I respect your willingness to find your own ministry without the investment of others”. Now this is a good argument for paid pastors. The congregation receives a blessing for participating in blessing the pastor financially. |
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Susan Collins |
Derrick Harmon those things can be free of charge but that’s kinda of hard on one Pastor to do and work a full-time job. I mean what’s the use in having a congregation just so they can show up and watch you do it all? That’s not an Eph.4 equipped Church. Somethings wrong with that picture. |
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Joe Absher |
Jesus is our hope and helpHe is the circumcision of the heart. |
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Derrick Harmon |
So I am also curious about when the first record of bishops being paid in the early church. When did this start as a practice? 100 ad, 200 ad, 300 ad? And was it so common that there are no records? Was it just assumed early on in the Christian faith that local church leaders would be paid? |
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Joe Absher |
Brother what’s really going on? |
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Ricky Grimsley |
Well i look at it this way. Every case is different. Churches vary in responsibility. Im on the church council and know the finances of my church. I dont begrudge my pastor any thing. |
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Bill Terrell |
Don’t muzzle the ox while it’s treading grain,nothing wrong with blessing the pastor. |
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Troy DayYou |
this only proves the pastor is an ox and should be paid in grain and only for treading not for preaching |
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Bill Terrell |
Troy Day I’m a farmer and grain is good as money because you can’t eat money. |
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Joe Absher |
I had a pretty good offering last night! |
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Derrick Harmon |
Troy Day LOL! |
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Troy DayYou |
keep you worm in those cold winter nights Street Preacherz |
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Joe Absher |
That Jesus is really something.In the north you have to learn to draw your heat and light from heaven it’s called the great love of God! |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
The pastor who doesn’t get paid is an infidel and out of order. His pay can be from the congregation or outside, doesn’t matter. He has to provide for his family |
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Derrick Harmon |
Timothy K. Wiebe He or she would provide for his or her family by getting a job. Many pastors quit their secular job because their church has grown. We often assume that church growth is always a sign of God’s blessings. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Derrick Harmon I don’t relate to any of this. 😎 |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Secular work only prevents a Pastor from being effective as he could be. I know this for certain, as I’ve worked every job under the sun, except Astronaut. I haven’t been an astronaut |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
Its sad what happened the the church preachers are paid to do what peter and paul gave up everything to do it makes me sick to my stomach to see them preach the gospel to fill there own bellies no wonder why christ is comming to flip the tables |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I gave up everything and have followed Him every single place he has lead me. You don’t seem to have a clue as to what you’re talking about |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Paul, who you referred to said… 1 cod 9:14Berean Study BibleIn the same way, the Lord has prescribed that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I have never asked for a salary and never asked one time what I would be paid and have worked, at times, 80 hour weeks with 50 of those hours in secular work |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Truth is, a Pastor who works outside the Church is neglecting his congregation, and I’ve had to do that many times |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
A Pastor cares for the flock, and any Pastor who is not paid is neglected by his own congregation. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
At least to the extent that they have ability to pay him. He doesn’t do it for money, he does it for the calling. The pay is so that he’s not an infidel |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
1 cod 9:14Berean Study BibleIn the same way, the Lord has prescribed that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. |
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Terry Wiles |
A lot of non pastors in this group who have no clue as to the burden the average pastor carries. |
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Derrick Harmon |
Timothy K. Wiebe And those who would “preach” the gospel in Paul’s day would be missionaries not professional pastors. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Derrick Harmon I don’t know what a professional Pastor is. I’ve never been one. God called me to preach and to be a Pastor. It’s a calling not a profession |
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Derrick Harmon |
Timothy K. Wiebe If you have worked 80 hour weeks, why not empower your people do some of that for you? This is the crux of the matter: people in the congregation won’t do anything because they are paying someone to do it for them. Empower them in ministry and you won’t feel the need to do it all. |
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Derrick Harmon |
Timothy K. Wiebe Why do you think John the Baptist ate locusts and wild honey? Did he ask his congregation for a pay check? |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Derrick Harmon because he didn’t have a wife and kids. Jesus didn’t eat much locust |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Derrick Harmon I do empower them |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I didn’t even have time to study. Good thing there is a Holy Spirit. 😎 |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I am full time now and the fruit is much greater as far as fulfilling my calling. Saying that a Pastor “must “ work a secular job is not a biblical mandate |
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Troy DayYou |
Timothy Nobody can work 80 hour weeks I’ve tried it and is impossible |
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Randy Buchanan |
Try saying that at a convention center! It CAN be done! |
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Troy DayYou |
I get up @ 4:00 and go to bed @ 24:00 My posts show it. Still cant clock 80 hours a week |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Troy Day I Pastored full time and was a mail carrier working 50 hours per week, 6 days a week. Yes it can be done |
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Katelyn West |
I work 40 hours a week at an optometry clinic, have full time college (all online, teaching myself), and am expected to work at least 15 hrs a week for my church not including small group time or sundays….so yes. It can be done. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
So glad I’m not carrying mail 50 hours a week anymore. I actually have time to visit people in need every day |
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Katelyn West |
I think that unfortunately many pastors don’t uphold their job as a pastor as it should be. I have seen way too often pastors showing up at the office at 9 in the morning, taking a 2 hour lunch, and then leaving at 4, never to help people or visit those in need. That’s why my heart breaks looking at churches day. I have yet to personally meet a pastor who genuinely cares about helping people and bringing the light and love of Jesus to people and NOT just getting a paycheck. One pastor I worked for said “if someone needs something out of office hours it will have to wait.” That’s not ministry. Of course there are still pastors who are genuine and don’t feel this way, but they are few and far between, sadly. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Katelyn West now you’ve met me. 😎 |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I’ve been a Pastor for over 30 years. There is a balance though. I have left vacations to go home because of need in the church. I have neglected my own family, and could have lost my wife. I had to learn not to put the church ahead of my Family |
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Randy Buchanan |
Salaried people often work more than 5 day’s a week and over 12 hours a day. It’s easy working 6 or more days a week. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I worked 7 days a week. I don’t recommend it |
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Susan Collins |
Ministry and Preaching is free but the time is takes to do Administrative work should be given a salary for. Some Pastors preach, marry, bury, counsel, home visits, hospital visits, attend District, State, National events and meetings, make budgets, mail off the bills, clean the Church, do all the lawn care, all the maintenance etc all the while trying to equip the saints for the work of Ministry. So yes a worker is worthy of his/her hire. |
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Troy DayYou |
Is this why pastors preach 1 time a week nowadays and administer the rest of the time? |
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Susan Collins |
Possibly.. Pastoring is so much more than preaching. |
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Katelyn West |
Derrick Harmon, this is something I have wrestling with and praying about for weeks! For me, I think that the issue lies in the fact that ministry has become a career and not a calling. Scripture talks about making sure the storehouse is full (which in biblical terms, the storehouse was for the poor) and interestingly, Jesus didn’t say “sell all your things and give it to the church.” He said give to the poor. I’m not against church, I’ve spent 21 years of my life in church. We are called to be a part of a community of believers. But the church exists to present hope. Our mandate as a body of believers is to spread the gospel and meet the needs of our communities. We each have an individual call, yes, but collectively we have a call as well. And I fear that church has become a business reeling in the profit rather than a shelter for the broken and a beacon of hope in desperate times. Why would I want to give my money and time to an organization that doesn’t fulfill its purpose? (I’m not trying to bash every church or pastor, I’m just speaking as a collective church this is the culture that has been cultivated). Churches make so much money across the United States and for what? So you can buy fancy lights and cool sound systems? You’re buying 60″ flat screen tv’s to put in your lobby? Why? So your building looks nicer? So people will think your church is cool and you’ll become famous? So you can get a raise? I think if churches started weighing their decisions against the question “is this going to further the kingdom?” Our churches would look very different. If you can’t justify the decision you are making, should we really be making it? In a general sense, I’m not “against” pastors being paid. But I, in my personal experience of working in 3 non-paid staff positions at 3 churches, have yet to find a pastor who gets paid an honest amount and ISN’T always focused on making more money. And that makes my heart hurt. The fact that every church I have friends who won’t go to church because as soon as they walk through the door they are told to give money and start serving. It shouldn’t be like that! Being a pastor SHOULD be more than just preaching a message on a Sunday. I have seen pastors tell people that they can’t come pray with them at the hospital, or attend community events, or meet with someone really struggling because they have to “have some time off too.” I work 40 hours a week, have college full time and am expected to serve at least 15 hrs a week at my church and if someone called me, any time of day or night and needed help or needed me, I would do everything in my power to help because that’s ministry. That’s doing life with people. That’s the love of Jesus manifesting itself in the most tangible ways. But that, for MANY (not all) pastors is not the case and that’s where my issue lies. Our communities and country need now more than ever to experience the tangible love of Jesus. Now more than ever the church COULD be the voice the country needs. The church could stand in the gap for our hurting communities and see salvation and freedom reign throughout. But instead we want our buildings too be cool with state of the art equipment…..what does that say about the church? If someone read the Bible from beginning to end and then you asked them what church is, I guarantee that they wouldn’t say a building. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I’m the opposite. I’ve never personally known a Pastor that didn’t sacrifice everything for the sake of Christ and the gospel |
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Katelyn West |
Timothy K. Wiebe I’ve been in the Assemblies of God since I was 4 days old and attend an AG college as well as having helped out and been involved with some non denom churches and I don’t think I could name more than 10, maybe, that truly gave everything for the sake of the call of ministry. I have a coworker who I have been ministering to and praying for and recently she asked me “if the church is called to help people and meet the needs, why is there still so much hurt? Couldn’t churches being using a lot of there funds to help the poor or support their communities? She said “I’d actually consider attending a church if it was more than just some place to attend on a Sunday and doing more than just making their buildings look cool.” And I can’t say I blame her. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Katelyn West like I said, now you know us. I can’t relate to what you’re saying because I haven’t sat under many pastors in the past 30 plus years because I’m doing what you just said, Living it |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
We have Pastored 5 churches and this one is the smallest. I wish people came and supported good ministry like you are suggesting |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
Most of the old time gospel preachers worked and preached when they needed money but we should pay our preachers for feeding us spiritualy too |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
When God called me to preach, I never asked how much, I only ever asked, “where†|
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Joe Absher |
He heard a big “GO!” |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
Even paul took up collection |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
To help the churches |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Yes, if I retired today, I have nothing |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
Dude i feel yo |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
Preaching is hard work dont pay well |
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Joe Absher |
Unless you consider pleasing the Lord and a big well done in the end. Won’t keep the lights on but… |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
Thats way im glad god called me to avangelism and exhorting the brethren |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
But im poor and on ssi so i got plenty of time to do the will of God |
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Joe Absher |
Pastoring is tough. Anybody that causes grief for the pastor is a enemy of God |
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Joe Absher |
Got a hot verse? |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
Please share it |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
I love learning |
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Terry Wiles |
Timothy K. Wiebe 1st item on next agenda. Have board set up retirement fund for pastor. It’s part of educating them. |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
It better for you to tie a mile stone around your neck then to offend one of my little ones that is the only verse i know concerning causing grief to pasters Street Preacherz |
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Joe Absher |
That’s hot! |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
I believe thats in mathew |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Nobody is going to provide for the Pastors family except the Pastor. The church should pay him full time salary plus benefits if possible |
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Joe Absher |
“I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.” — Psalm 37:25 |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Street Preacherz tell that to a lazy Pastor |
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Joe Absher |
I ain’t tell the pastor nothing… edit added – Righteousness would exclude laziness and the promise of this verse |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Street Preacherz the Pastor who doesn’t provide for his own family is a thief and a liar |
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Joe Absher |
..we have five fold ministry. It takes a stable honorable man to be trusted over God’s flock. Integrity is essential for ministry. But he allows for mercy. Im quite certain I would be disqualified for some types of ministry. It is enough for me to stand against proud rebellious men and call the broken humbled sinner to the arms of Christ the Saviour. |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
Give back to God and who give bountfuly will reap boyntfully who give sparaly reaps that this is a commandment it helps run the church keeps lights mantnience of the building and pays the offices of pasters remember your giving to God not man each church will give account how they used his money but preachers need to eat just saying |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
If they can but if they caint there is day labor and other jobs he can do thats how my grandad preacher explained it to me |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
And some churches meet in the houses still and thats cool too i like a general assembly though |
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Katelyn West |
Just kind of playing devils advocate here, but why are others in the congregation expected to provide for their families, however many hours that is, and still expected to give above and beyond of their time, away from their families, to serve the church when most pastors give a basic 30-45 hours a week…..i know when I couldn’t make it to an event because I had finals that had to be done, I was told that I was making the wrong thing a priority. I was also interning at a church a few years ago and was told that I should quit my job to focus on ministry, and that God would “certainly” provide for my bills if I gave all my time to the church. So then why can’t pastors do that? I just hate the double sided expectations that don’t even make sense. When I was growing up my dad was trying to do berean study, he had a wife and three kids, worked 50 hours a week at a part store but in order for the church to help pay His berean he was required to go to the church every night after work and put in hours…there were many days that we didn’t see my dad all day. And then the youth pastor at the time who my dad was working under went to the board and asked to have more time off because his wife didn’t like that he had to be in the office 40 hours plus Sunday and Wednesday’s and that Sunday and Wednesday should count as part of his 40 hours….doesn’t make sense and is not how “ministry” ever was or is suppose to be. |
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Edward Hardee |
Katelyn West it is sad that you had this experience with pastors. There were some who expected people to sacrifice their family for ministry. I have seen pastors do this themselves over the years. |
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Edward Hardee |
This is not correct. I think they should work hand in hand. I hope that your experience now is better. |
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Terry Wiles |
You are correct. Doesn’t make sense. Someone should point it out to that kind of board. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
“why can’t Pastors do that?” WE ARE. I am truly sorry that you’ve had the experiences you’ve had, but I have had no such experience with ministry or Pastor friends of mine. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I have worked almost every type of job known to mankind, (I haven’t been an Astronaut yet), while Pastoring churches at the same time. At times I have been a full time Pastor and I am now. I have been the church janitor, a security guard, a limo driver, a firefighter, worked in the oil industry, mail carrier, school bus driver (7 years). We have built two churches, almost exclusively with volunteers. I have been on missions trips around the world and have supported world missions financially and sent people, and supplies and helped establish pastors and churches globally. I never asked for acknowledgment or praise. When hurrican Harvey hit, I immediately began a fund raiser and purchased thousands of dollars in Lowes gift cards, going door to door to help the victims. We clothed them, fed them, and so much more. I’m not tooting my own horn, but just giving you the perspective I have. There is so much more I could say, hospital visits in the middle of the night, welcoming people into our home during dinner, because they were distraught, on and on and on it goes. This is my perspective, and I’ve been in the Assemblies of God since birth, 54 years. I wrote a book if you’d like to read it. 🙂 |
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Katelyn West |
I don’t mean to sound like I’m targeting you or any one particular pastor or congregation, this is just an issue that is happening in the church culture as a whole, AG or not. Maybe it’s different in the south, but here it is not that way at all. I have many friends who have been greatly hurt by these things and will not attend church now because of these things. Or pastors wanting to know how much each person is tithing….i had a friend leave the church because she was told that she could not be a part of the church if she didn’t give at least 10% but should really be giving more and must report her givings to the church. That was he dispute that I ended up leaving that church over. The pastor stood on the pulpit and said “of you are not giving your entire paycheck to the church then you cannot call yourself a Christian.” Tithe and offering should be between an individual and God. That’s it. That’s the kind of stuff that is being taught and drilled into people’s heads. And the more I look at it, the more I see that that is the structure of the AG from the top down. I have worked in and attended AG churches and events and conferences my entire life, this isn’t coming from an outsider who doesn’t know anything. I’ve been around, I know. And this, more so in the last few years, has been a reoccurring theme…..it shouldn’t be about money at all. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Can ya’ll move here and join our church? 🙂 |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I have also been around and I admit I’m not your typical AG Pastor. Some call me a rebel. |
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Katelyn West |
I’ve considered moving south just for this reason! Yes I agree you do not seem like the typical AG pastor |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I was a full time evangelist for a couple of years and we did see some abuses. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I saw stuff that quenched the Spirit immediately and I knew I wouldn’t be back there |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
In our church, we receive one offering per week, and we don’t say much (if) anything about it. We just pray over it and pray God blesses those who have or don’t have something to give. Our church is small, and I get paid a full time salary. It is VERY unusual. People give because it’s on their heart of love, and (I suppose) because we do a lot of outreach and bless everyone we can. It’s a miracle (to me) that I am able to be full time here. Our congregation is only about 40 to 50 people. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
We have been through hell on earth. We’ve been physically attacked, threatened with guns, front door kicked in, Jezebel spirit against us, all sorts of stuff. Because I’m a Pastor, maybe I lean on defending the Pastor a bit more, but I know about abuses, and have seen plenty of abuse by Pastors. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Before coming to this church, I felt that God had called us to a different church. We tried out, and the church received us very well, but the board did not allow my name to be voted on, because they (board) wanted someone else. This was strong church, with about 150 in regular attendance. We have friends in that church, who were saved and called into ministry under our ministry. I found out two days ago that that church is now running 20 people because the Pastor has run them all off and insists on doing everything his own way. I was informed that he doesn’t visit and neglects the elderly. God may have wanted us there, but the board wanted what they wanted, a man with more education than me. :-/ |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
No amount of scholarly degrees can replace the anointing of the Holy Spirit. |
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Katelyn West |
AMEN |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Also, it’s not just about obvious works, but dedicated prayer and study of the Word |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
God will provide he allways does |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
He always has. 34 years now |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
God is good |
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Bill Stockham |
“The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching. For Scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and “The worker deserves his wages.” (1 Timothy 5:17-18) |
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Christopher Noel Boggess |
Decons handle the money and spending elders sheapards the sheep |
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Joe Absher |
Mr Derrick Harmon I don’t think I’ve seen such a great response since the post about having trouble catching foxes. I think it was 300. But most folks can’t catch one. One good one that’s all you really need. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
I have worked almost every type of job known to mankind, (I haven’t been an Astronaut yet), while Pastoring churches at the same time. At times I have been a full time Pastor and I am now. I have been the church janitor, a security guard, a limo driver, a firefighter, worked in the oil industry, mail carrier, school bus driver (7 years). We have built two churches, almost exclusively with volunteers. I have been on missions trips around the world and have supported world missions financially and sent people, and supplies and helped establish pastors and churches globally. I never asked for acknowledgment or praise. When hurrican Harvey hit, I immediately began a fund raiser and purchased thousands of dollars in Lowes gift cards, going door to door to help the victims. We clothed them, fed them, and so much more. I’m not tooting my own horn, but just giving you the perspective I have. There is so much more I could say, hospital visits in the middle of the night, welcoming people into our home during dinner, because they were distraught, on and on and on it goes. This is my perspective, and I’ve been in the Assemblies of God since birth, 54 years. I wrote a book if you’d like to read it. 🙂 |
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Joe Absher |
What’s it called “Acts 29” |
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Susan Collins |
How many in your congregation are equipped to do what you do? Are you the only one equipped for the work of ministry? |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
My belief is that a Pastors calling is to equip the saints for the work of ministry. It’s what we do. We teach, preach and practice it. Many in the church are equipped and doing the works of ministry. There are always some who don’t want to or have some excuses. |
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Susan Collins |
Eph.4.. equip the saints for the work of Ministry.Seems like most Pastors here are doing all the work and not doing what a Pastor is required to do. Equip the saints for the work of Ministry. I’d you’re doing it all..what are your church members doing? Watching you kill yourselves? |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
My belief is that a Pastors calling is to equip the saints for the work of ministry. It’s what we do. We teach, preach and practice it. Many in the church are equipped and doing the works of ministry. There are always some who don’t want to or have some excuses. |
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Susan Collins |
If the Church body only hears a couple of sermons a week how are you equipping them? By sermons or walking along beside them during the week? How do you implement equipping or put it into action? |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Teaching, walking alongside them, offering them ministry opportunities. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
How are you doing it? |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
When someone has a gift and calling, a Pastor must find and give them opportunity and help them fulfill the gift God has given them to the body. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
How do ya’ll do it, Susan? |
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Susan Collins |
Making disciples is doing life with someone..not merely attend Church together. We work with those and create opportunities outside Church times to help them grow. Take a few under your wing at a time and encourage other aged and mature disciples to do the same. They learn so much more by watching you than hearing you. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Right. That’s what I was saying |
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Susan Collins |
Send them out and let them do Hospital visits, Nursing Home and Prison Ministry etc. Let them speak in the pulpit. Let them carry the load of the Church as Pastors dig into the Word of God, spend time in Prayer. Lead by example. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Right. |
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Timothy K. Wiebe |
Some accuse a Pastor of doing too much, others of not doing enough. 😎🤔 |
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Susan Collins |
Very true… balance is the key. At the end of the day We give an account to God. |
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Troy DayYou |
Derrick Harmon time to give us the whole story if you want real advice |
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Joe Absher |
I think many have been praying for our brother. I have |
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Troy DayYou |
Need to know the specs before fixing the problem |
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Joe Absher |
Spoken like a true man of God. Bye for now… |
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Troy DayYou |
just tell it like it is Derrick Harmon |
Joe Absher
A good Pastor is a gift from God. I can’t speak for anybody else but I feel awful if I don’t put something in the offering
Tim Taylor
Do u consider ministry a job? Wat are u preaching the bible gods word is tat a job fo u consider tat work then yea lets pay him for selling gods word but then temember free though receive free givest if in the ministry every field is the same then lets all get paid not only pastors
Varnel Watson
Tim Taylor we;ve only considered what David Griffin said
David Griffin
God does not have a payed ministry. Isa 45:23.
1Peter 5:3 States that,” feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; NOT FOR FILTHY LUCRE, but as a ready mind; (emphasis mine)
Matt 6:5,
The Savior said,
“And when thou prayers thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are; for they love to pray standing in the synagogues (isn’t this,what the man in your illustration is doing standing in prayer so the people in the congregation can see him) and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say into you they gave their reward.”
The Savior said,
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weighted matters of the law, judgement, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocritse! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess
Thou blind Pharisees, cleanse first that which within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whites sepulchers, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones and of all uncleanness.
Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity. (See the rest of the chapter to verse 39)
Again, these are the words of the Savior, not mine.
Varnel Watson
David Griffin dont the BIBLE say something about the ox;s mouth? What was that?
David Griffin
You tell me, as you have, in this thread only voiced your personal opinion and not once backed up your words with passages of scripture from the bible. Not once.
Varnel Watson
So the ox thing is not in the Bible for you? Which Bible are you reading? – the book of Mormon? BTW I did post many verses in the previous discussion which I posted above. Here it is again. Pls review first before you post again http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/bible-scriptures-for-paid-full-time-ministry/
David Griffin
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is not for sale, period. Thes are quotes of other men that are saying what they think the scriptures say.
Why are you posting things of other men? Men of flesh and blood, when the Savior said do not trust in the arm of flesh? Why do you follow ordinary hypocritical men? SAD. Especially when you have the Bible to study for yourself. The KJV.
Varnel Watson
Virtually ALL levites eat from the temple sacrifice
David Griffin
Troy Day At the present time no temple sacrifices are required. Sacrifices were fulfilled with the coming of Jesus Christ. The only sacrifices required that I know of are tithing, time, and talent.
However, we live in the last dispensation of the Fullness of time, where, ALL THINGS will be restored, even animal sacrifice for a short time.
Varnel Watson
from the tithe all levites shall live
David Griffin
Troy Day not. The tribe of Levi, A.k.a. the Levitical/Lesser or Priesthood of Aaron, is a prepitory priesthood. However, Aaron and some of his descendants were and are high priest after the order of the son of God.
Levites were and are to be spread throughout the other 11 original tribes, to include a combined 12th tribe consisting of Manasseth and Ehpaim from the tribe of Joseph. Church the Bible book of Joshua from the inheritance of the tribes after their entrance into the promised land.
Varnel Watson
leave the levites hungry and see what God does with you
David Griffin
Troy Day The levites have their place. As I said, Jesus Christ came and fulfilled all of the Mosaic law, animal sacrifices are longer requires. And every man is responsible for the economical, social, spiritual, educational, ect, of his own family, whether that family be a single or a married couple with children.
Varnel Watson
Tithe was before the Mosaic law
David Griffin
Troy Day Not true. Tithing is one law of the Lord. And was instituted before Moses, for Abraham payed tithing to Melchezedek, who was a HIGH PRIEST OF SALEM.
Tim Taylor
No more levites bros
Tim Taylor
Plus jesus paid the price no mo highpriest jesus became the high priest
Varnel Watson
there are still some – and lots will be needed for the 3rd temple Ricky Grimsley
Tim Taylor
Tithes were ubderlaw of moses no mas moses
David Griffin
Read the words of Malichi the prophet, chapter 3:8-11.
Tim Taylor
Yes offering donations love offfering
Varnel Watson
you call it patatas I call it patetos
its still tator tots at the end
french fries are now liberty fries
Tim Taylor
Troy Day wateva
Tim Taylor
Keep getn robbed
Tim Taylor
U cant buy yo way into heaven its easier thru john 3 16 just beleive tats all it takes stop makin those theifin pastors richer
Varnel Watson
you’ve got to get the heat high on the grease so the tators get deep fried Joe Absher knows about frying things. You get robbed when the restaurant keeps the temp down to save money then them tators soak the grease and get soggy not crunchy That’s how you get robbed
Joe Absher
The friar I know is Rodney out in Arizona. He’s probably under a tent or something somewhere. Loves God that’s for sure.
Varnel Watson
Tithes were before Moses as Tom Steele has told us
Link Hudson
I Timothy says elders who rule well are worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. But it does not say that they are ‘full-time’. The same passage talks about honoring widows. The church supported them, too, back then.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson there is a FINE LINE in your interpretation of 1 Tim – it can go either way as far as the Bible is concerned Do you even for a moment think that Paul or Timothy or anyone else was getting paid? I hope NO – therefore the interpretation offered is but private At the same time you have the other great defeat of this scripture via the well known Shepherding movement which resulted in Vineyeard, iHOP and Toronto and plainly abused this scripture for private gain http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/what-were-the-theological-problems-of-the-shepherding-movement/
Link Hudson
I don’t know why you would single out these movements when plenty of Pentecostal preachers have attempted to put the congregation under a curse to get them to contribute money to a fund that contributes toward their salary.
An A/G position paper considers its pastors to be elders btw.
Link Hudson
Paul supported himself by making tents at time. He waived his rights to live of the gospel. But ge did recieve gifts at least on occassion.
Do you believe salaries pastors are wrong?
Varnel Watson
where did I single them? only pointed extreme cases Nevertheless your exegisis of 1 Tim is but a personal interpretation of Scripture Paul never meant in his context
Link Hudson
Troy Day Isn’t that the only verse that indicates financial support specifically for the local pastoral ministry? There are some passages about those who evangelize living of the gospel. Are you against pastors being compensated or supported?
Varnel Watson
Do you really believed what Paul is saying in your quoted verse is that a preachers should get a pay check?
Link Hudson
Troy Day No, and I did not say that, either. I do not believe it is wrong to receive gifts. Are you a tentmaker?
Link Hudson
I am trying to figure out your concern over Trump’s tax plan if you are against salaried clergy.
Varnel Watson
wrong topic – pls comments on the TAX reform OP
Link Hudson
Troy Day still talking about clergy being supported. Does your church pay, salary, support, gift, etc. you?
Varnel Watson
I know for a fact what you claim the verse to say had nothing to do with what Paul meant back in his day #noughsaid
Link Hudson
Troy Day What is your objection?
‘Time’ two syllables, could refer to ‘honor’ as compensation even back in the time of Homer. In the story of the Illiad, it could refer to spoil given as ‘honor.’ Achilles had his taken away when the general (Agammemnon or Menelaus?) took his slave girl from him.
Is there a reason to think the word lost that meaning?
Varnel Watson
my objection was already stated in full – neither Paul, Timothy, John, James etc took pay check from church
Link Hudson
Troy Day They probably did not have paychecks back then. I suppose its possible they had something similar and we just don’t know about it.
Paul seems to indicate the Lord’s brothers were supported in their travels in the opening of I Corinthians 9. I don’t know if the support of the apostles are elders was a set monthly amount. They could have lived off gifts, believing God for their provision. Personally, I prefer that to the salary system. I’m not living off of a church-provided salary, either. But I’m not throwing stones at churches who pay salaries or those who receive them.
Link Hudson
Do you think the church was to honor widows by just saying, “I honor you” or did they actually support the widows on the list? Honoring elders is in that passage.
When did ‘time’ lose the meaning of renumeration in Greek? that’s the question? The language of Homer was still influential to some degree in the first century, wasn’t it?
Varnel Watson
again my objection was already stated- neither Paul, Timothy, John, James etc took pay check from church
Link Hudson
Troy Day So you are okay with pastors getting paid in ancient Greek coins then?
How are modern financial instruments the issue? ‘Time’ can have the sense of compensation in Greek. At least it could centuries before this was written. Paul refers to sayings that apply to supporting ministers of the gospel elsewhere in scripture.
Robert Erwine
Link Hudson I would take those coins in a heartbeat !
Link Hudson
Robert Erwine The Greeks didn’t make their coins out of rubber back then.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson your claim that Paul, Timothy, John, James were paid by the churches then is ridiculous
Link Hudson
I do not claim they were paid a salary. Your statement is inaccurate. I wrote nothing of Timothy or John being supported materially. I don’t know how they were supported, but the following passage implies some support. I don’t know about Timothy or John and have not made claims that the churches supported them. John was ‘supported’ when he went out two by two, possible with his brother James. There reference below to the Lord’s brethren might include the other James. My guess woudl be Jude, too, but those are guesses. I don’t know whether Simon and Joses were itinerant preachers.
I Corinthians 9
3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
Isn’t it reasonable to infer that Cephas (likely Peter) and the Lord’s brothers were supported by the brethren as they travelled?
Paul went on to write about how he would not receive supported from the Achaians. But he did receive gifts from the Macedonians:
I Philippians 4:15
14 Notwithstanding ye have well done, that ye did communicate with my affliction.
15 Now ye Philippians know also, that in the beginning of the gospel, when I departed from Macedonia, no church communicated with me as concerning giving and receiving, but ye only.
16 For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity.
17 Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.
18 But I have all, and abound: I am full, having received of Epaphroditus the things which were sent from you, an odour of a sweet smell, a sacrifice acceptable, wellpleasing to God.
Paul wrote in II Corinthians 11:
8 I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
Probably due to contraversies and the situation in the churches there, Paul would accept support from Macedonia, but not Achaia. In Acts, we read where Paul spoke of how he worked to support himself and others. But we also read that on certain occasions, he accepted gifts.
Varnel Watson
You are piling up verses but they dont mean what you are saying they mean The support described was for other churches Acts 5-6 were explicit on how moneys were used . Paul and Timothy worked to support their ministry They did not draw a salary from the church Also, Didache is very thorough on how preachers and prophets are treated
Link Hudson
Did you bother reading? Why would he imply Cephas and the Lord’s brother exercised their power to eat and to drink and to bring a wife if they only accepted resources for the poor saints in Jerusalem?
And how would he ‘rob’ other churches to give to the Corinthians if the Macedonian funds went elsewhere? Notice ‘was lacking to me…’
Do you think most pastors in the A/G are doing wrong.
Notice I never said any of the apostles got a salary or paycheck.
Varnel Watson
Acts 20:33
I have not coveted anyone’s silver or gold or clothing.
1 Thessalonians 2:9
Surely you recall, brothers, our labor and toil. We worked night and day so that we would not be a burden to anyone while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.
2 Thessalonians 3:8
nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. Instead, in labor and toil, we worked night and day so that we would not be a burden to any of you.
Link Hudson
Paul and his coworkers did not covet the belongings of the Thessalonians. They worked to support themselves in Thessolonika, Corinth and elsewhere.
But they did recieve gifts from the Macedonians and live off them, gifts recieved no doubt without compulsion.
Paul did think ge had a right to live of the gospel, a right he waived among the Corinthians. A right Cephas and the Lird’s brothers apparently exercised on their travels.
He considered it to be the right of these evangelizers to live of the gospels the Lord’s command. Christ had instructed the twelve when He sent them out to recieve food and drink from worthy individuals who recieved them for the laborer is worthy of his gire. If one would nor recieve them nor hear their words, they were to shake off the dust of theirfeet. A very similar saying shows up in regard to elders who rule well in I Timothy 5:18.
In the same verse, Paul applies the principle of not muzzling the ox that treads the grain to elders that he applies in to evangelizers in I Corinthians 9.
Varnel Watson
Seems like you still cant show a scripture from the Bible to proof paid ministry Quite on the contrary 1 Timothy 5:18, KJV: “For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.” – it in no way proves paying preachers
IF ONE could really BE PAID to PREACH Christ we may just as well close the church doors all together
Link Hudson
I am not arguing for salary, or even cash. Jesus and Paul wrote about food. Paul of eatong and drinking. In Jerusalem, widows were fed. I Timothy 5 writes of honoring widows, then of honoring elders. Theymight have provided food for them. Matthew 10 implies lodging also.
We agree, don’t we, that preachers may recieve gifts not given under compulsion?
I think the pendelum has swung way too far in some churches.
Varnel Watson
I see what you are saying but how is it related to OP? Do you pay your preacher with milk. flower and fresh farm eggs?
Link Hudson
If they take verses abput crops and herds and call that ‘paying tithes’ why not. I suspect Paul got money rather than eggs from Macedonia, though.
Varnel Watson
that’s also hard to prove as a Biblical model especially when we know for a fact toward the end of Acts the whole communal model was disbanded and the church was scattered So yes if you promote a centralized government I guess you need to have all moneys together – but good luck proving that with a NT Scripture model Look up early Pentecostal history
Link Hudson
Troy Day How did we get onto a communal model? Did I post about that?
Apparently, the church provided or was going to provide something for widows out in Ephesus or wherever Timothy was in I Timothy 5.
Varnel Watson
I Timothy 5 says nothing about salaried pastors
Link Hudson
straw man.
The issue is not salary as a form of payment. It does talk about providing, materially, for elders who rule well.
If that aspect of the meaning of the Greek word ‘time’ fell out of the language before Paul wrote that, when did it happen? Matthew could have been written after Paul wrote that.
Varnel Watson
actually that is precisely the issue in this OP BIBLE SCRIPTURES FOR PAID FULL TIME MINISTRY – have you got any?
Link Hudson
Troy Day Compensating ministers. Yes, I’ve quoted them. Pretending they don’t exist or say what they say doesn’t make them go away.
Why would Paul use ‘time’ in this context if he did not mean material provision?
‘Full-time’– that’s a modern concept. It’s anachronistic to read that back into scripture.
Link Hudson
Troy Day Btw, this is Pentecostal theology. On other topics, you seem opposed to rethinking traditional Pentecostal views and still considering oneself ‘Pentecostal’. Whatever happened to your following the party line?
You disagreed with Dake a few days ago, too.
Link Hudson
Don’t you see I Corinthians 9 as showing that Cephas and the Lord’s brethren were supported by the church in material things? Do you agree with Paul that he had a right to live of the gospel?
Do you disagree that ‘time’ can be given in material ways. C.f. Jesus. Reference to honoring father and mother in Matthew 15. Isn’t the point that it was wrong to try to get out of an abligation to ____honor___ parents, with finances, food or other material provisions by devoting future gifts to them to God?
Varnel Watson
I Corinthians 9 does not prove pastoral salaries
Link Hudson
Troy Day Straw man. I already said I did not see ‘salaries’ in that passage per se. But apparently hosting churches did keep guests up, or these men expected to be provided for when they travelled.
Jesus told the 12 to enquire who was worthy, enter his house, eat and drink, for the laborer is worthy of his meat. If one would not accept him, they were to shake off the dust of their feet. Jesus invited Himself over to Zaccheaus house to eat.
Varnel Watson
Straw man is yours – you cited I Corinthians 9
Link Hudson
Troy Day The straw man is pretending I am arguing for salary. A salary is a set monthly (or weekly or whatever) income– a specific amount.
Link Hudson
There is also the issue of apostles or the seventy showing up at a worthy man’s house, and the man being obligated to receive them or else his house be under worse judgment than Sodom and Gomorrah. Let’s compare this with the sending of the 70, which is quite explicit that their food is wages they are worthy of.
Well there is this from Luke 10:
4 Carry neither money bag, knapsack, nor sandals; and greet no one along the road. 5 But whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’ 6 And if a son of peace is there, your peace will rest on it; if not, it will return to you. 7 And remain in the same house, eating and drinking such things as they give, for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not go from house to house. 8 Whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you.
(NKJV)
Matthew 10
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Jesus invited himself to stay at Zacchaeus’ house, too.
Luke 19
4 So he ran ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see Him, for He was going to pass that way. 5 And when Jesus came to the place, He looked up and saw him, and said to him, “Zacchaeus, make haste and come down, for today I must stay at your house.”
Might Cephas and the Lord’s brothers have done similar things when Paul wrote I Corinthians 9?
Varnel Watson
did you read the Didache ? The Lord’s teaching to the heathen by the Twelve Apostles. http://www.thedidache.com/
Link Hudson
Many uears ago. I am familiar with the three day ruleabout apostles in that book. I had read in a book on customs in Bible lands that any one could require three days lodgings of a host. This may havebeen a Bedouine custom.
Be that as it may, not accepting an apostle and providing lidgings could have dire consequences and they were supposed to go…on that joirney…and find someone to stay with, without taking a money bad. The 70 had similar instructions. Food and possibly lodgings was due thrm for their labor. After they returned they said they had lacked nothing.
Varnel Watson
I searched quite a bit to find you example for payed clergy but I dont see one until 5-6AD and even then it is still Ify
Varnel Watson
Unfortunately, most of what we call full time ministry is really just administrative busywork that does not meet the standard of ministry.” aint that the real truth