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Angel Ruiz | PentecostalTheology.com
It is important to note that the Assemblies of God deemed the Neo-Pentecostal Movement to contain heresy from the very beginning. The Assemblies of God officially denounced Neo-Pentecostal teaching, nearly splitting the denomination in the process. Other established Pentecostal groups have passed similar resolutions.
John E. Ruffle
Please define neo-Pentecostalism
Angel Ruiz
John Ruffle Neo-Pentecostal churches are a category of churches with in the Christian “Charismatic Movement”, also known as the “Third Wave.” Neo-Pentecostalism at first embraced many of the doctrines and practices of classical Pentecostals (first wave) and the Charismatic Movement (second wave); but eventually distinguish itself by adopting heterodox practices.
John E. Ruffle
OR do we realy mean post-denominationalism? Which also may mean severing the tragic Protestant memory that still lingers from the Reformation period; which is at the root of the anomaly we call denominationalism, but is actually sectarianism.
Link Hudson
Angel Ruiz, I’ve read ‘Neo-Pentecostal’ applied to the Charismatic movement, probably in books that used the term before the term ‘Third Wave’ was coined.
John E. Ruffle
I’ve always disliked the ‘third wave’ moniker, as it was a term dreamed-up by John Wimber and Wagner and is more an advertising slogan than anything rooted in theology or the Church.
Angel Ruiz
John Ruffle Neo-Pentecostal tenets and practices are found in many independent, nondenominational or post-denominational congregations. Most Neo Pentecostals believers, are unaware they are part of a heterodox church; they may feel that some or all of their practices are grounded in scripture. Several Neo-Pentecostal groups were influenced by the Toronto Blessing in the mid-1990s Since its beginning in the 1980s, the Neo-Pentecostal Movement has sparked a large number of counterfeit revivals. As the movement evolved, unbiblical practices continued to get more and more bizarre. In recent years some Neo-Pentecostal leaders and churches have begun to separate themselves from some of the more aberrant practices and are trying to move back to more classical pentecostal practice
John E. Ruffle
Is it also about Evangelicals who accept the pentecostal-style moderrn ‘freedom’ in non-liturgical worship (as in music / bands etc.) but who ban speaking in toungues in meetings, and consider it to be a rather strange optional extra that some people on the fringes sometimes claim to have and value?
Angel Ruiz
Link Hudson I have also read that ‘Neo-Pentecostal’ applied to the Charismatic movement… i would say some ministris not all in the the Charismatic movement… I feel ‘Neo-Pentecostal’ makes a clear distinction from Charasmatic and Clasical Pentecostalism…
Angel Ruiz
Here are some practices and beliefs that can help identify Neo-Pentecostals: (this is not a complete list)
-God has restored all the offices of ministry to the Church, including apostle and prophet.
-denominational lines will be destroyed, and the Church will unify in the last days
-Gold dust and jewels.
-Repetitive chanting or singing.
-“name it and claim it” doctrine
-Post-canonical revelation.
-Holy laughter.
-Animal noises.
-Buying/selling miracles.
-Kundalini spirits.
-Christians can be demonized and require deliverance
John E. Ruffle
I think for all the reasons Angel Ruiz cited above and more, I considder myself to be ‘pentecostalist’ and NOT ‘Pentecostal’. To me, this describes a theology defendable by Scripture, and is clearer to understand than ‘charismatic’ – although I’m happy to be seen as that too – and among non-theologians, I tend to refer myselef to be a ‘Catholic charismatic Christian’. Something along those lines anyway. Or, just call me an old but not worn-out Jesus Freak! 😉
John E. Ruffle
Yikes Angel Ruiz! Good list there sister, and herlpful too! Too much to comment upon before work I’m afraid, but am awaiting the complete list. I do think that some of these need to be xconsidered individually, as not all groups will subscribe to all of the list items. (If you can number them it would be helpful for discussion purposes please.) For instance, by ‘name it and claim it’ we are talknig about hyper-faith / Prosperity gospel as promoted by Rhema Bible College Tulsa? Many of these on the list woudl seem to be practices / beliefs adhered to by ‘Kingdom Now’ / Domionion theologans. This is a very fundamental and heretical paradigm that indeed leeds to many of the hetrodixies on your list. However, we may have some ‘Dominion theology’ adherents on the group here, so if so, we need to give them a fair hearing. Meanwhile, am intersted in an expansion on what you mean by the ‘Kundalini spirits’. Blessings, John.
Link Hudson
Angel Ruiz, where do you get your definition for ‘neo-Pentecostal’. It makes sense as a term for the Charismatic movement, which is probably where the term originated, in the late ’60’s or early ’70’s. Why should people barking like dogs be called ‘neo-Pentecostal.’ It sounds like you are talking about some of the kind of experiented folks in a kind of ‘prophetic’ and ‘signs and wonders’ movement.
As far as some of your doctrines go, the belief in prophets and apostles is not some kind of new, neo-Pentecostal thing. I recall hearing a message where Howard Carter expressed belief in apostles. I think the A/G considers missionaries to be apostles. The idea of some believers being prophets isn’t unheard of in Pentecostalism. The commandments of the Lord for church meetings in I Corinthians 14 assume the presence of prophets in the church. And a lot of Pentecostals will refer to that text which mentions prophets if they ever write or talk about prophesying in the church.
Angel Ruiz
John Ruffle here is a bigger list but in no way is it a complete list
1. God has restored all the offices of the ministry of the Church, including apostle and prophet.
2. Someone is an Active Prophet or Apostle.
3. Denominational lines will be destroyed, and the Church will be unified in last days.
4. Gold dust, diamonds and jewels fall during services.
5. worship songs with excessively repetitive phrases.
6. “Word of Faith” Doctrine (the belief that God is bound to obey the words of Faith).
7. Divine extra-biblical Revelation.
8. Holy Laughter.
9. Moaning in the Spirit (making animal noises).
10. The purchase or sale of miracles.
11. The teaching that an apostle or prophet is needed to be saved
12. Spirit of Kundalini / Toronto Blessing (Holy Laughter)
13. The saved Christian can be possessed and require deliverance
14. Anointed Brooms
15. Teaching that the Holy Spirit is a woman
16. Anointed Saliva.
17. anointed Water
18. Poring Oil in the person’s mouth to be delivered of demons possession.
19. Poring Salt in your underwear for purification
20. Mud Bath
21. Soap and detergent to clean sins
22. the belief that anointed men should be able to turning water into wine
23. anointed Horse
24. The anointed chewing gums that heal the sick
25. The anointing of Rambo
26. The anointed water hose
27. the anointing of the kick to the face
28. Flour of prosperity
29. anointed Milk
30. Necklaces that heal
31. Tisúes that heal
John E. Ruffle
Link Hudson – what Angel Ruiz is refering to (if I am not mistaken) is the idea of ‘super-apostles’ (YES — St. Paul encountered those too, way back!! 😉 ) who consider themselves as FAR more than ‘pioneer missionaries’ as classic Pentecostals would describe it. They are men and some women I guess but can’t think of any who have controlling empires of congregations over which they have complete and usually highly authroitarian control in one way or another. Some of the worst kind can be found leading the ‘cell church’ pyramid movement in Latin America and elsewhere.
John E. Ruffle
Angel Ruiz – you’ve really kicked that one into touch dear sister, lol!!!! 😉
Angel Ruiz
i’m am not saying that all Neo Pentecostals are wrong or false… sadly most of the Charismatic/Pentecostal false doctrine is found in Neo Pentecostal groups…
Angel Ruiz
Link Hudson The New International Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements, Grand Rapids: Zondervan.
John E. Ruffle
COMING UP NEXT: ‘Do Angels Have Gender?’ :-O lol!!!!
Jason Douglas Greene
And with that said, the AoG, as well as most other Pentecostals, were deemed heretics by many evangelicals. The problem with labeling people as heretics is that the group doing the labeling fails to realize that they themselves were once a new movement within Christianity. If a church acknowledges the biblical truths laid out in the ancient creeds of the church e.g., the Apostles Creed or Nicene Creed, then they are not heretical. The Holy Spirit is being poured out on any and all who turn to the lord Jesus. At present there are as many charismatic/neo-charismatics as there are classical Pentecostals.
Herman Spencer
The Assemblies of God was on the rock Jesus some have left that rock they have taken down they have taken down the cross and call it the way church the spirit has all so gone but not all of them God help us
Angel Ruiz
that’s right Jason Douglas Greene… but we must understand that is not just labeling factor…
Know ” If a church acknowledges the biblical truths laid out in the ancient creeds of the church e.g., the Apostles Creed or Nicene Creed…” than they wouldn’t be Neo Pentecostals…
Most Neo Pentecostals believers, are unaware they are part of a heterodox church; they may feel that some or all of their practices are grounded in scripture…. As the movement evolved, unbiblical practices continued to get more and more bizarre.
It is also important to note that in recent years some Neo-Pentecostal leaders and churches have begun to separate themselves from some of the more aberrant practices and are trying to move back to more classical pentecostal practices…
John E. Ruffle
No, but I’ve heard of Emelia Earhart!
Jason Douglas Greene
Angel, if you would, please be specific about groups or people that are heretical. thanks
Angel Ruiz
In the comments I posted a list of some the practices and beliefs that can help identify neo pentecostals…
Link Hudson
For some of those teachings, maybe you could use ‘flake’ instead of ‘neo-Pentecostal’. Some of that stuff I haven’t heard of. Rambo annointing? I’ve never heard of that, but that sounds kind of ’80’s. Mud bath? I’m not familiar with that.
I’ve met people who are all excited about gold dust and jewels or oil dripping from people’s hands. It’s weird to me to get excited about that. I’d rather see people saved and healed. But if it happens, I’m not going to say it can’t be God. I just think it makes more sense to seek the kinds of things the Bible encourages us to seek.
I once talked to a guy who thought that all the bad stuff was ‘Charismatic’ and all the good stuff was ‘Pentecostal.’
Some of the teachings that Pentecostals object to from certain Charismatics, the NAR, WOFers, etc. were actually in Pentecostalism before these things became distinct movements of their own. Kenneth Hagin was an A/G preacher way back when. The Latter Rain movement was Pentecostal and existed before the Charismatic movement. And I don’t want to trash all of them, either. I’ve heard good teaching from a Latter Rain preacher on the one occasion I heard one. I found out he went to a church that was historically a part of that movement after the emeting was over. Five-Fold ministry is a relatively old Pentecostal teaching that was emphasized in the Latter Rain movement.
‘Holy laughter’– I’ve heard of that happening in Pentecostal churches many, many decades back before the Toronto thing. Teaching that the Holy Spirit is a woman sounds more like a liberal thing.
Pentecostals has some preachers who are really high on enthusiasm and low on good content. I’ll admit, I’ve heard a lot more things I’d consider to be loopy or downright alarming from outside of the mainstream Pentecostal denominations. But I’ve also seen some of these other churches move in the gifts more than Pentecostals do. Pentecostalism has gotten a bit old, and can get stuck in a rut and comfortable with tradition.
I believe in Ephesians 4:11 ministries. I don’t think of it as a list of people who should all be on a committee to govern the church. I don’t agree with NAR thinking on ‘apostles’ that pastors all need an apostle to be under. I do believe that the Spirit sends out certain people to evangelize and teach and establish churches.
As far as NAR authoratarianism goes, that sort of thinking exists in Pentecostalism, too. Is having a leader of a large church organization called an ‘apostle’ any more unbiblical than Pentecostalism’s senior pastor system? There is no real support for it in scripture. The Bible shows us that the apostles appointed a group of elders and refers to them as bishops and tells them to pastor the church (e.g. Acts 20:28.) Paul and Barnabas, and apparently Timothy and Titus, appointed elders from within their own congregations. We don’t see churches hiring an outside pastor.
And where is the idea that we should have one pastor preaching one Sunday sermon in scripture? The folks at the Azusa Street revival seemed to be going back toward New Testament experience with their emphasis on Spirit-led meetings. But that sure didn’t stick in most of Pentecostalism. Some of the Charismatic groups seem a bit more open to a I Corinthians 14 meeting than some Pentecostals are.
There are also plenty of Pentecostals who think of pastoring as ‘a call’, and don’t realize they need to be looking at the qualifications for bishop. I suppose we could blame the growing number of Pentecostal preachers whose background in terms of marriage is questionable on the ‘neo-Pentecostals’.
We should also keep in mind that a lot of Charismatic and ‘Third Wave’ churches aren’t into these things in your list. One Vineyard I went to did not seem ‘Charismatic’ beyond a theoretical acceptance of spiritual gifts.
I don’t believe Pentecostals have arrived in terms of having all doctrine worked out. ecclesiology and the role of pastors, above, is one example.
Varnel Watson
Here’s the full discussion on AG Walter Polasik
Brady Hall
A little in the dark, what qualifies as Neo-Pentecostal?
Ken Van Horn
Brady Hall Anyone who doesn’t join a Pentecostal denomination.
Varnel Watson
Ken Van Horn not really SO Peter Vandever can explain
Brady Hall
Troy Day interested, because I know charismatic folk that would affirm like 100% of what I believe.
Varnel Watson
Brady Hall I very strongly doubt that Dont you?
Ray E Horton
Causing division among the brethren, who, in most ways, believe pretty much alike. While the AG is growing, things like this are one reason, like with most denominations, people are leaving to join the broader Charismatic church movement.
Varnel Watson
Ray E Horton what kind of divisions are you referring to? Not that I care much about neo-Pent. but just curious what you know
Ray E Horton
Between AG and the charismatic churches
Varnel Watson
Ray E Horton well Brady Hall Ken Van Horn may feel they are the same but they aint – its a fact