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A Christian TATTOOS Biblical?
Pentecostal Theology [08/17/2015 7:35 PM]
http://www.faithtattoos.org/recent-news-on-faith-tattoos/why-christian-tattoos-can-be-a-controversial-subject-and-yet-so-popular/
Anna Mae Slate [08/17/2015 8:02 PM]
Our LORD’S words tell us we are not to mark and scar our bodies. It is the Temple of our LORD.
Pentecostal Theology [08/17/2015 8:05 PM]
The Bible mentions tattoos just once, at Leviticus 19:28, which says: “You must not put tattoo marking upon yourselves.” God gave this command to the nation of Israel, thus setting them apart from the neighboring peoples who marked their skin with the names or symbols of their gods. (Deuteronomy 14:2) While the Law given to Israel is not binding on Christians, the principle underpinning this law is worth serious consideration.
Timothy Carter [08/17/2015 8:46 PM]
That looks cool ? now but in 15 years unfortunately everything goes to gravity.Lol ?
Timothy Carter [08/17/2015 8:57 PM]
Pentecostal Theology Did you catch that God has a tattoo? And it has our name tattooed in His hand(Is 49: 16) so that is not the only place where the Bible is talking about tattoos.
John Kissinger [08/17/2015 9:09 PM]
Topic seems to be about tattoos on humans: On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written: king of kings and lord of lords Rev 19:16
Leah M Grier-Lee [08/17/2015 9:31 PM]
I would rather see tattoos with a biblical msg rather than the scars I have from childbirth & various medical procedures ~ No Difference
Leah M Grier-Lee [08/17/2015 9:31 PM]
love it ??
Charles Page [08/17/2015 9:46 PM]
no
Timothy Carter [08/17/2015 10:34 PM]
Charles page please elaborate my friend
John Kissinger [08/17/2015 10:36 PM]
I think Charles Page was pretty clear – NO 🙂
Timothy Carter [08/17/2015 10:37 PM]
LOL ?
Timothy Carter [08/17/2015 10:37 PM]
Seriously LOL ? ? ?
John Kissinger [08/17/2015 10:39 PM]
I’d like to see a Christian tattoo with the generations from the book of Numbers. I will recognize even anyone with Mt. 1:1-17 tattooed on their back. If you have the last one, pls call as I’d like to use you as my sermon illustration Sunday morning… (preferably Christmas if available)
Charles Page [08/17/2015 10:41 PM]
what if it is tattooed to their private parts?
Joe Collins [08/17/2015 11:04 PM]
Bible mentions tattoos two times.
Once in old testament when talking about not worshipping false gods and the other time is in the NT.
The NT talks about Christ returning with a tattoo on his leg.
If God has a tattoo then, I’d say it’s ok.
Ed Lane [08/17/2015 11:07 PM]
No
Joe Collins [08/17/2015 11:07 PM]
U can tell Jesus “no” all you want Ed, however I wont
John Ruffle [08/18/2015 12:18 AM]
“Opting for any religious tattoo is a strong commitment to faith..”
– ‘Misplaced’ is the word I’d use rather than “strong”.
Timothy Carter [08/18/2015 1:55 AM]
Tattoo is not a Sin it might not be the best idea ever but it is not a sin. Anyone who wants to preach tattoo is a sin has a misunderstanding of something. YES a tattoo can be a dirty work of art just like a photo can but that doesn’t mean ALL people who have photos are committing a sin. The tattoo can also be responsible like the one above or children’s names extra.
Timothy Carter [08/18/2015 1:57 AM]
Just make sure that your tattoo artist can spell. Your body don’t have spell check Lol ?
John Ruffle [08/18/2015 2:05 AM]
Anything that is not of faith is sin. Btw, what is a “dirty work of art?” Mixed metaphor or something going on there.
Timothy Carter [08/18/2015 2:47 AM]
Not trying to give a mixed metaphor. I was trying to be polite. Dirty R rated OR X rated nude sexual OR Language tattoo not suitable for children under age. How can getting a tattoo of a church ? not be a sin but getting a tattoo of my dead son’s name separate me form Christ?
Jerry VanTilburg [08/18/2015 4:39 AM]
To answer the question, no “Christian Tattoos” aren’t Biblical.
Finny Ebenezer [08/18/2015 5:04 AM]
Tattoo is a sin
Jackie Walls [09/14/2015 9:03 PM]
Not according to Leviticus 19:28
Jon Ray
NO. And here it is again – NO
Dan Swenson
Do getting tattoos make you ungodly? No.
Jon Ray
The Bible mentions tattoos just once, at Leviticus 19:28, which says: “You must not put tattoo marking upon yourselves.” God gave this command to the nation of Israel, thus setting them apart from the neighboring peoples who marked their skin with the names or symbols of their gods. (Deuteronomy 14:2) While the Law given to Israel is not binding on Christians, the principle underpinning this law is worth serious consideration.
Dan Swenson
Consideration of course. But if it doesn’t go against your own self conscience is see no issue.
Pork was mentioned in the law also but eat without hesitation. I do anyway. But some it goes against their conscience.
Jon Ray
The BIBLE says in Leviticus 19:28: “You must not put tattoo marking upon yourselves.”
Dan Swenson
In Old Testament law, yes.
Dan Swenson
The law is not for the believer nor was it EVER for the Gentile
David Lewayne Porter
Actually Lev 19:28 says…
Leviticus 19:28
Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord…..
The emphasis is on “for the Dead”…
Can anyone explain why?
(Although I personally do not want any. I don’t like them, but that is my personal stance).
D Blair
I have to agree . I feel that intentions need to be pure.
Dan Swenson
Didn’t the pagans worship the dead? Or pray for the dead?
Jon Ray
So a scull tattoo with a cross is for the living?
Dan Swenson
Who said anything about that kind? Of course you should be aware of the tattoo you’re getting. My goodness.
Dan Swenson
And with that said, what if someone did get a tattoo like you’re talking about? Do you think they’re hell bound or what are you getting at?
David Lewayne Porter
I do question why anyone wants to mark-up their bodies.
I do question them on their support of the ministry and
If they are faithful stewards since their money is not theirs but God’s and what he has entrusted to their care.
I also ask why they are drawn to do so (as a witnessing tool is weak at best, I know I witness to tattooed friends).
I also point out that believers are to lay down every weight (Hebrews chapter 12 verse 1)
Not just lay down sin.
So then is the person we are discussing a sinner or a “believer” who is,wanting to play games and keep living close to the world?
Press toward the mark……
See, I get to it without the Old Testament verses.
Blessings.
Dan Swenson
Why would you question their support of the ministry?
Why would the issue of a tattoo be a weight?
Well if he was a sinner then he’s a sinner rejecting Jesus anyway.
But Iets say he’s a believer, then what?
Jon Ray
Which tattoo would you suggest as Biblical ?
Dan Swenson
Anything other than death. What if someone put their favorite scripture. Or something boasting of God. I don’t see an issue with that.
Dan Swenson
But even so, what are you implying about someone getting a tattoo even as a believer?
Jon Ray
Even from a worldly point of view – – – Legal status of tattooing in the United States
State Minimum Age (with parent/guardian consent)
North Carolina 18 (piercings excepted)
North Dakota none specified
Ohio none specified
Oklahoma 18 (piercings excepted)
Dan Swenson
You’re still not answering my question. I agree it’s a useless act of no significance. But why should it effect /hinder someone’s relationship with Christ?
Jon Ray
Please refer to my new and upcoming book “Tattooing Jesus” (gen.ed. Rick Wadholm Jr 🙂
Dan Swenson
No offense but I’m not interested in reading a book about your opinions. Just biblical reference at this point.
Jon Ray
Cited above with full interpretation. Pure #BIBLE
Dan Swenson
If anything it could hinder members with bad theology or thoughts about issues. Imagine a pastor preaching from the pulpit. A pure word message with great revelation. Feeding the sheep. And then after he takes his suit jacket off and you notice tattoos on his arms. Some people would cast judgement and totally deny his message and rob themselves of Gods word just because of those tattoos. That’s sad.
Jon Ray
Leviticus 19:28: “You must not put tattoo marking upon yourselves.”
Dan Swenson
Keep it in context and in covenantal relevance.
Dan Swenson
“Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.”
��Leviticus� �19:28� �KJV��
Jon Ray
I’d like to see a Christian tattoo with the generations from the book of Numbers. I will recognize even anyone with Mt. 1:1-17 tattooed on their back. If you have the last one, pls call as I’d like to use you as my sermon illustration Sunday morning… (preferably Christmas if available)
Dan Swenson
You’re bypassing the whole discussion/question by changing subjects.
Dan Swenson
In conclusion, YOU believe anyone with a tattoo is unrighteous and going to hell then?
Dan Swenson
Just give us a straight answer.
Jon Ray
I am sorry Dan I am not accustomed to get involved in ad hominem attacks. A discussion on theology and the Bible has presented a very plain command of God in Leviticus 19:28: “You must not put tattoo marking upon yourselves.” Other version separates the open wound cuts from drawings on the skin. How are we to interpret this as Bible students?
Dan Swenson
I’m not attacking you. Just trying to understand. I think we would interpret it by what the word says.
“Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.”
What bible version are you referring to?
Dan Swenson
I still think you are taking it out of context.
Jon Ray
For this reason we have a group of some 3,000 theologians, ministers and students. Let’s refer it to the group and see what they think. Perhaps the best way to establish context for any Biblical text? David M. Hinsen
Dan Swenson
The biggest thing is, why are we even debating whether a levitical law applies to a Christian in which it was NEVER attended to be for Christian.
David Lewayne Porter
Dan Swenson
I (do) question their support of the ministry because it goes the show if they’re being a good and faithful servant and stewart of what God has entrusted to them. If they’re not using what God has given to them in a faithful manner then they have no business spending God’s money and what He’s entrusted to them on tattoos, alcohol, excessive food, clothing, cigarettes, tobacco products, items of pleasure and entertainment.
It is deeper than most people think, look, and dig.
I hope that answers your question and helps.
You see,
Them supporting and giving to the ministry means soul winning and growth/additions to God’s Kingdom.
That is what God is concerned with. After all, why did Christ Jesus come to Earth in bodily form?
Dan Swenson
First, where is it our business or duty to determine whether or not someone is being a faithful servant and stewart? And what makes us a faithful servant and stewart?
Second, are you saying we cannot use the money God gave us to buy things we want? The house we want? The car we want? The clothes we want? Of course giving thanks to our Father!! But does God not allow that?!
And the other items you listed can very well be a struggle of a believer that is having a problem in those areas of their lives (addiction, etc.) so would we have a right to say they’re being unfaithful servants and stewards. This is where people receive condemnation from other believers and I think it’s a shame. We need to come together and work out the salvation that is given to us. Just because you don’t struggle with these specific subjects, I imagine you struggle somewhere.
It seems like a lot of believers measure themselves by themselves, and compare themselves among themselves.
Just my opinion. Seems like we try to justify our flesh (or the acts of it) more than others sometimes (self righteousness) instead of showing His grace, love and compassion towards them. Them seeing these fruits from others will be witness to them, encouraging them.
Our standing with God is the same as any other believer as we are justified by faith. We all have been reconciled with the Father. This is why we should not judge others by what their actions are, but correction. I am the same as you, and you are the same as me, all because of Jesus Christ and what He has done. It’s about Him, not us.
I hope you take no offense to any of this, that is not my intention.
David Lewayne Porter
Brother, no offense taken.
It is all about Him.
As you said it is your opinion.
I am just stating my stance from the history of the way I witness and address the topic.
For me and those I have witnessed to, I have had success and I stand confirmed that it works.
First, what makes it our business or duty to determine whether or not some one is being a faithful servant and stewart?
Do you know just how much the New Testament alone has to say about money and how to or not to handle and use it? Jesus did not shy away from the topic, nor did the disciples. Did you realize that consumer credit and debit (aka credit and charge cards) is now the largest single grouping of spending and debit – even surpassing home mortgages and even auto loans? This is listed as superficial spending…..
As you put it (wants) not needs but wants….. One of the signs of the end time generations is uncontrolled unrestrained spending and going after their desires and lusts (you mentioned addicts).
Have you not read that the borrower becomes slave to the lender? Do you realize that Christian believers are to not only care for their parents, but also very possibly their aunts and family. But because of the way we Americans have spent ourselves into debit we can forget helping our parents because the children are spending into up side down debit. At their middle age years they still need their parents that are in their 60s and 70s to pail them out. The parents knew how to spend less than they made, how to save money, and how to live within a budget.
Let me point out that the average gift given per person to a church is now less than $20. (When we tip at a restaurant more than God’s ministry deserves we may want to examine who our God is)… hint – look up ((who’s god is their belly))…
AND YET we are going to justify paying $100+ dollars to get a tat(too).
How often has your Church been asked to feed, house, or put gas in the car of someone that can AT WILL smoke, drink, party, gamble, eat (not just food, but) expensive food? And I am not just talking about sinners only…. I mean those balanced believers who know their Bibles and live according to the Scriptures contained within it are expected to take what they have stewarded and give it to “wasters”.
“No wonder sinners think the church is there as a bank and don’t think of it at all for salvation”. We are upside down, the cart is in front of the horse.
Addiction (brother I hope that you are not justifying addiction and saying that we do not have a right to point out where they are missing the mark [the High calling for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus], or that we are to enable and equip them? If so you miss it and the intention of the Gospel Message. I have a family full of addicts and ex-addicts.
Those that have gotten clean have thanked me for being firm, direct, in their face. Yes at times even hard. My brother thanked me for getting into His mess and making him so mad that he hated me and would avoid me at all cost. That is until he realized i was telling him the truth, that he needed help and then he decided to get help and got clean.
You mistake condemnation for caring enough to love them and get involved risking the relationship (sometimes risking it all) to make a change in their lives.
I not only have addicts and (ex)addicts in my family, but I also have them as friends.
I deal with addicts often.
Please tell me one person that Jesus met who He left the same way….?.
The answer is none.
They were either healed, forgiven, and better, or they left upset, angry, mad, hardened even more, or depressed,,,,, but no one left the same as they came to Him.
So why does the church leave them the same way. ((And we say we are showing them Jesus)). Precious us, God is so pleased in us. (I doubt it very seriously).
Do I struggle? Define struggle.
You mean when it shows up that 1) I claim and use The Word, 2) I submit to God, 3) I resist the temptation, satan, the draw of my own flesh including 4) fleeing youthful lust – the lust of the eyes – flesh – and the pride of my life,
and then I win that battle,,,
Then yes, yes I struggle like that. I win knowing that no temptation has taken me but such as IS COMMON TO MAN but God is faithful who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
So then the problem is us.
Why don’t we give deliverance instead of enabling them?
As far as does God not allow good things,,, did they ask him or just go get it? Did they ask His permission or are they following His direction (there is a MAJOR difference). Are they getting it by biblical guidelines or going deeper into debit?
What you mistake for
self righteousness
Is the ability to show them that others made it out and they can too as we lead the way.
Showing love, compassion, grace…
It is funny how people on the outside thinks getting involved is the easy way, (and judge us for being mean, cold, judgemental). Getting involved is what puts the relationship in jeopardy the quickest with the most severe and extreme results. It is far from the easy way of doing things.
Addicts (as you called them) will only change by seeing the fruits of others when accountability is added to the mix so they have to follow through. You may have heard it called tough love.
And as far as not judging them by their actions,, how did Jesus say you would know them?
(His disciples are known by love – check out our Jesus in Matt 23 as He dispensed tough love).
He said we would know them by their fruits… what are their actions but fruits? As far as their fruits, read the letters of Revelation to the 7 churches, all but 2 were corrected and yet those two were cautioned in their future.
Let’s not over look the fact that the New Testament letters were written to correct errors and place the offenders back on the straight and narrow. Some of them were corrected and (threatened) rather harshly.
Measuring against themselves, not at all.
Measuring against the word and the stature of Jesus, yes.
Did Jesus come to get what He wanted while here on earth. (2 Timothy 2:3-4 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ. No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.).
How can they do that while not being a wise and faithful steward? How can they do that with bad spending habits and bound by debit?
As I said previously, it is deeper than most people think it is.
It is more than just a tattoo.
It is…
has (g)od told them to?
If they say that God oked it, did He ok it or did He instruct and direct it.
If he did, he whom? (Try the spirits whether they are of God).
You see we are not just instructed to not sin, but to lay aside every weight (Hebrews 12:1).
And again there is no offense taken.
Dan Swenson
I agree with every word you said. And no I do not condone any action against God’s word, against the guidance of the Holy Spirit, nor enable people’s ability to, according to the wisdom and understanding I have received. But all I’m sayings is that younger believers in maturity will not have the same amount of revelation, wisdom and understanding as a more mature believer. Which in turn, will place them somewhere other than where you or I am in their walk. I think I’m just having a hard time getting my point across and I don’t want you to misunderstand it. If the Holy Spirit hasn’t convicted them of a certain thing, then repentance of that is not available at that time. And all of that is brought forth by our wisdom and understanding of the word. So if the light/revelation of something has not been received then we are ignorant to whatever that may be. All I was getting at. Things will change over time with convictions and revelation. Our outward actions will change over time by the working of the Holy Spirit and Him alone. If we try to follow a rule or law by the ability of ourselves then it is done with the wrong intention and motivation, as not being led by the Spirit. Do you kind of get what I’m getting at? Lol. Sorry for the drawn out reply but I just want you to see what I’m trying to explain.
David M. Hinsen
Tattoo financing?
Dan Swenson
?
David M. Hinsen
The guy’s comment I was responding to was deleted
Dan Swenson
Oh lol. I saw that earlier too.
Dan Swenson
But really a simple biblical answer would be, no Christian tattoos are not biblical. But tattoos for Christians are not against God’s word.
Jon Ray
They kind of are against God’s direct word in Leviticus 19:28
Dan Swenson
If you are an Old Testament believer and also a Jew, then yes. But then you must live by the whole law.
Jon Ray
There are many OT direct commands we still keep today…
Dan Swenson
You don’t eat meat?
Dan Swenson
What commands are you talking about?
Jon Ray
For all OT commands please refer to Tom Steele
Dan Swenson
So we must follow the commands but we don’t even know what they are?
Jon Ray
Why not? Which part of the commandment not to make drawings and markings on our bodies do you not agree with? Did Jesus have a any tattoos?
David Lewayne Porter
As much as I agree with you, your scripture reference will put you in a corner by not keeping the scriptures in the context before and after that one.
The way I do it, that scripture never comes into play.
(And the scripture said it is to not do it FOR THE DEAD).
Dan Swenson
I don’t agree in the fact that the law does not apply to Christians. And no I don’t think he did. But does that make it against him. No.
Dan Swenson
You are trying to divide the law that is not divisible.
Jon Ray
Dan Here are 10 (of the all 611) OLD TESTAMENT COMMANDS (on Love and Brotherhood) not repeated in the NT. Which one(s) do you NOT do?
1. Not to stand by idly when a human life is in danger (Lev. 19:16) (CCN82).
2. Not to wrong any one in speech (Lev. 25:17) (CCN48). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
3. Not to carry tales (Lev. 19:16) (CCN77). See Speech and Lashon Ha-Ra.
4. Not to cherish hatred in one’s heart (Lev. 19:17) (CCN78).
5. Not to take revenge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN80).
6. Not to bear a grudge (Lev. 19:18) (CCN81).
7. Not to put any Jew to shame (Lev. 19:17) (CCN79).
8. Not to curse any Israelite (Lev. 19:14)
9. Not to give occasion to the simple-minded to stumble on the road (Lev. 19:14)
10. Not to leave a beast, that has fallen down beneath its burden, unaided (Deut. 22:4) (CCN183).
Tom Steele
Jon Ray, you forgot the one about not having sex with animals. That is also 100% exclusive to Mosaic Law. How many of the tattoo proponents think that it is acceptable behavior for a NT Believer to have sex with animals?
Also, the tattoo issue can be a little tricky. Reading the passage in context, seems to be dealing with actions that were made in worship of the dead, a pagan practice that was forbidden. Cutting yourself or making marks on your body for the dead is what appears to really be the restriction.
HOWEVER, since it is not all that clear, the real attitude of the Believer should ask, “Why do I want a tattoo anyway?” I can only speak for me, but I just don’t get the desire for them. I have absolutely no desire to get a tattoo, it just doesn’t make sense. The Bible says not to do it. Whether it’s only about worship of the dead, or whether it’s an outdated OT Law, or whatever, it’s not clear enough to justify doing it, and I don’t get the premise. Why would you want to do it in the face of the commandment not to, unless in your heart you would rather place your own desires above an issue that has a direct commandment against with a vague at best argument to void that commandment?
A final thought on this:
For this mitzvah that I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you, nor is it far off. It is not in the heavens, that you should say, ‘Who will go up for us to the heavens and get it for us, and have us hear it so we may do it?’ Nor is it across the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will cross over for us to the other side of the sea and get it for us, and have us hear it so we may do it?’ No, the word is very near to you—in your mouth and in your heart, to do it.
Deuteronomy 30:11-14 (TLV)
Mitzvah, for those who may not know, is the Hebrew term for the Torah Laws of God.
It’s harder to work at justifications and loopholes to disregard God’s Law than it is to simply obey it. That means that the true burden of the Law is on those who look for reasons not to obey. Those who obey are the truly free ones, free from the stress of trying to justify rebellion, free from the curse that comes with disobedience (Deuteronomy 28), free from sin (the transgression of the Law). If you want to be free, just do what God said to do and don’t do what He said not to do. That is true freedom.
Jon Ray
Tom Steele I was going to mention about 30 related to the family matters but did not bid it appropriate. Good reference for Dan Swenson What is you stand on Christian tattoos? Are they for the glory of God?
Ed Brewer
silly
Dan Swenson
Why do you disregard the whole gospel Paul preached. The law is the ministry of death and condemnation. And you dilute the blood and works of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. The only reason the law was given was to bring us to the end of ourselves and to Jesus himself.
This doctrine (where ever it came from) is entrusting on mans ability instead of the Holy Spirit. You pick certain laws to follow, making it seem possible to fulfill the law yet the law was never meant to be fulfilled by man but to show sin. God knew it was impossible for man to obey, but they insisted. This doctrine is not the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Let me ask you this, what if a believer disobeys a commandment?
Dan Swenson
Where in the New Testament did it mention anything other than the law is not for a believer?! Paul made a point again and again.
David Lewayne Porter
I think it is being over looked that
Jesus said Matthew 22:36-40
Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
*On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.*
All the law and the prophets.
Law,
The law does still apply, just differently now being through Christ by His fulfillment.
Matthew 5:17-19
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 11:13
For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
Dan Swenson
That is part of Jesus’ bifold ministry. The context is love. He was talking in front of Pharisees who were trying to catch him up, just like the time he said to cast the first stone. Jesus had a ministry to make the law even more impossible for man since the Pharisees would do the same thing you are implying, obeying certain parts of the law to make it possible. And then also to show his grace to come in the new covenant.
Matt 5 he clearly states until all fulfilled. The new covenant doesn’t start at Matt 1. It starts at the cross when Jesus shed his blood (Heb. 9:16)
Christ cried out on the cross “it is finished”
David Lewayne Porter
Yes, the context is love.
Everything in and through Jesus is love.
Maybe you overlook the point I made (the law still in affect but through Jesus, through his flesh Eph 2:15).
Brother,
You take a big step saying, “since the Pharisees would do the very same thing you are implying, obeying certain parts of the law to make it possible”.
First, I am implying no such thing. Nor did I in anything that I said.
Show me where I did.
Maybe you overlook
Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
We Establish the law.
Jesus is the fulfillment of the law.
Not Calvary.
Jesus fulfilled it, Calvary removed the “ordinances” of the law.
The law was added for conscience sake (back up from your Heb 9:16 reference and read this one in context)
Hebrews 9:9
Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
The conscience***.
The same conscience that is still on us according to Romans 14:22-23
Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin..
Faith, conscience, ,,, the same reason the law was added; So that they would be convicted and moved to repentance (even though their’s was not lasting and had to be redone yearly).
You may want to Re-read Matt 11:13 again.
You know,,, it is scripture.,,,.
So then, as Jesus said concerning the great commandment and the Second, “these 2 commandments hang all the law and the prophets”.
Try this one,
Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
((They do by nature what is contained within the law because the are written upon their hearts)).
Second, maybe you should reread what previously stated in my post instead of reading what you want to see.
I firmly believe in the Cross.
I firmly believe in the Work of Jesus the Christ.
I know that work started BEFORE Calvary. It ended at Calvary.
I firmly live under Grace having obtained Mercy.
If you stand by your words that the New Testament starts at the cross then you must justify how Jesus forgave sins AND gave his disciples the ability to forgive them BEFORE He went to the cross. In addition to that those forgiven were not required by Jesus The Christ to offer the required sin offerings. Yet the law was still active at that time, and if as you deem it the law would still be “”fully”” in effect. ((But He did have some of them offer the commandment requirements for healings and cleansings)).
You see,
If you study closely the reason that the law and prophets prophesied unto John it is because it started with John – at the time of John. Then Jesus showed up as the Lamb of God that taketh away the Sins of the World. (Take special note through His ministry of things that happened to upset the fulfilling of the law – as seen through the people of their day). As stated forgiving sins without the sin offering which was still required up unto his death on the cross.
That is exactly why He said, “it is finished”.
Not that it was started at the cross. He finished at Calvary what He started 3.5 years earlier.
So how did you reconcile that?
As far as, “Ye without sin cast the first stone”. He used the law and clarified it – where was the man? By law they should have brought the man and the woman for stoning. He corrected their understanding of the law. They were not interested in the law or living righteously. Jesus is still clarifying it for us, but now through His flesh.
Jesus’ ministry was not to make it even more impossible for man.
The law as given to Moses was already as impossible as it could get. It could not get anymore impossible. The law was placed there to show the need for the Saviour.
Dan Swenson
Agreed. I didn’t mean to come at you like that, so I apologize.
I do agree Jesus is the fulfillment of the law, not calvary.
The new covenant does not start until the death of Jesus Christ.
MATTHEW 26:28
HEBREWS 9:14-17
Notice this:
Matthew 19:16 the rich young ruler asked Jesus what to do so he could have eternal life. Jesus’ answer in Matthew 19:17 to “keep the commandments” is much different than the answer in Acts 16:31 which says simply to “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved,” or 1 John 5:13 which says those who believe in the Son of God may know they have eternal life.
What is trying to be said about Matt 11:13?
Romans 2:14-15 does not insist that the whole old testament law is written on their hearts, if so we would be condemned by anything contained in the law (seafood, sabbath, etc.) This is stating that the gentiles are either condemning or approving solely on the consciense is it not?
Forgiving sins before the new testament, He is God and they had faith. Just like all OT believers because of their faith was counted unto righteousness.
“the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. ”
“blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.”
And yes He says “it is finished”, not solely that the new covenant starts, but that the fathers will was fulfilled, law, OT prophesy, and all his work was done.
With cast the first stone- He intensified the law, comparing to the Pharisees who were self righteous.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21 Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:
22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.
26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
DO WE FOLLOW THIS?
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
31 It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths:
34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God’s throne:
35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King.
36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black.
37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
And you say the law cannot get any more impossible…..then why do we continue to try and fulfill it?
David Lewayne Porter
Simple answer,
We fulfill it through Christ.
The law that He has written upon our hearts.
The law by Which we by conscience fulfill.
Romans 2:14-16 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
Dan Swenson
Yes. Not by trying to justify yourself by a rule of law. But by faith alone and guidance of the Holy Spirit.
David Lewayne Porter
Nope,
Not by faith alone.
Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
“Faith is action, seeking”.
And
James chapter 2 – all of it
James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Dan Swenson
I totally agree. Faith with ACTION yes. A response. Not works of self righteousness with upholding a law. You’re missing the whole point.
The woman on the issue of blood. She spoke and said if I just touch part of his clothes, I may be healed. (Now realize that she is unclean. Her touching anyone according to the law, would be stoned) Her pressing through and touching Jesus was her ‘works, action, response to her faith). There are many examples of them responded to their faith.
Dan Swenson
Sorry by Alone in my previous was worded incorrectly, I was implying without works of the law.
Dan Swenson
Let me ask you this, what doctrine or what scriptures do you go by to support upholding a written law of any kind? And what written laws are the ones we ‘must follow’? I know some people still say the Ten Commandments. I know some people say the ceremonial law is the only thing Jesus took care of. Etc. Etc. The law cannot be pieces out. For if you fail in one point you’re guilty of all.
Dan Swenson
We know there is either righteousness by the law. And then there is the gift of righteousness which is by faith in Jesus Christ. If it’s righteousness by the law you have fallen from grace because you’re trying to earn grace based on your performance. But but grace is unmerited and unearned, lest any man boast about their works.
David Lewayne Porter
Dan Swenson
I am not missing the whole point.
You are distracted.
You are carrying on a debate with me that does not exist.
I am not taking about self righteousness. You are the one that brought up self righteousness when you accused me of being like the pharisees. (So then you must deal with that and judging/evaluating people falsely within yourself).
I am not taking about upholding the law. I never said that.
That is all in your head. No one can fulfill the entirety of the Mosaic law by themselves. Then after you add in the ritualistic regulations men attached to it over the years. Impossible.
You are reading things in that I am not saying.
If you think that I said it then show me or move on.
As far as the other posts following that one, like I said they are for a fictitious debate.
Dan Swenson
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the books of the law to do them.” (Galatians 3:10)
Dan Swenson
“Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the notions of sin, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we are held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.” (Romans 7:4-6)
Dan Swenson
“For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.”
��Romans� �10:3-4�
Dan Swenson
“Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”
��Colossians� �2:14� �KJV��
Dan Swenson
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Dan Swenson
“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.”
��Galatians� �3:10-11
Dan Swenson
“Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise. Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
��Galatians� �3:15-29� �KJV��
Dan Swenson
How can all this be missed!?
Dan Swenson
“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
��John� �1:17� �KJV�
Jim Price
Law or no law tattoos don’t make sense, especially for people who seek the mind of Christ.
Dan Swenson
Well a lot of stuff we do don’t make sense to each of us. Buying $300. $800 smart phones. $20000 a year for a worldy secondary education. Spending a majority of time pursuing a career. The list is endless but we still satisfy them. But why should we police the people when God is the only one who can convict us? We need to stop trying to be the Holy Spirit, preach the gospel and let God do His work.
David Lewayne Porter
Dan,
On that we agree, ,,
But smart phones I consider as the alabaster box of Mary.
Mine is used for Him and for witnessing, or I would have a cheap phone for calling only.
Jon Ray
Dan IMHO 5:1 solves it
Jon Ray
5 against vs 1 (you) for Christian tattoos
Dan Swenson
Haha oh wow. Are we really going to go there? I’m taking biblical truth against all opinion.
At the end of it. What are you saying happens to a believer that gets a tattoo? Are they hell bound or what?!
Jon Ray
Well that’s for God to decide not isnt it?
Dan Swenson
Exactly. So leave it up to Him. My exact point from the beginning.
Dan Swenson
Either way if you’re born again you’re a child of God with eternal life. Thanks to Jesus Christ. We must not complicate the gospel.
Jon Ray
And this same God who decides commands his people explicitly in Leviticus against placing tattoos on their bodies
Dan Swenson
He commanded the Israelites. Yes.
Dan Swenson
But it’s your choice to be a slave to the law. You don’t have to though.
Dan Swenson
Because we are justified by faith and not of the law. Either way we’re both in the same family here. Just praying for revelation to open your eyes like it did me. I used to live by the law and was bound. Limiting God by my guilty conscience and condemnation. But now I have the freedom in Christ, not to sin but sin has no dominion over me. Thank you Jesus.
Dan Swenson
“Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
��Galatians� �5:4�
David Lewayne Porter
Dan Swenson
I am not denying what Jesus did.
But you still have to reconcile each and every verse.
As in the verses in the Old Testament there are laws about food and what we can eat and can’t eat. There are times you can eat those same items but not in conjunction with certain others.
The Law was placed there inorder to show us our faults, failures, and shortcomings. It was placed there as a school master to increase our desire for His Compassion, Grace, Mercy, and forgiveness.
Varnel Watson
Dan you are too funny sir 🙂
Terry Wiles
If Scripture is the word of God to mankind then both old and New Testament show the creators intent. The owners manual clearly says do not make marks on your body. God wants others to see his mark on you.
David Lewayne Porter
Terry,
Simple question to you concerning the verse in question,
Why did it say not to make the mark, cutting, engraving within the body?
Let’s take it straight out of the verse shall we?
Terry Wiles
Yes. Let’s take it straight out of the verse. Here we go:
Leviticus 19:28
Verse 28. “Ye shall not make cuttings on your flesh (body) on account of a soul, [i.e., a dead person] nor make engraven (or branded) writing upon yourselves.”
Scripture give two prohibitions of an unnatural disfigurement of the body in this one verse.
The first refers to passionate outbursts of mourning, common among the excitable nations of the East, particularly in the southern parts,…
…and [the second] to the custom of scratching the arms, hands, and face (Deuteronomy 14:1), which is said to have prevailed among the Babylonians and Armenians, the Scythians, and even the ancient Romans, and to be still practiced by the Arabs, and the Abyssinians of the present day, and which apparently held its ground among the Israelites notwithstanding the prohibition (cf. Jeremiah 16:6; 41:5; 47:5) – as well as to the custom, which is also forbidden in Leviticus 21:5 and Deuteronomy 14:1, of cutting off the hair of the head and beard (cf. Isaiah 3:24; 22:12; Micah. Leviticus 1:16; Amos 8:10; Ezekiel 7:18).
It cannot be inferred that the heathen associated with this custom the idea of making an expiation to the dead.
The prohibition of writing corroded or branded i.e., of tattooing, a custom not only very common among the savage tribes, but [also] in Arabia and in Egypt among both men and women of the lower orders, had no reference to idolatrous usages, but was intended to inculcate upon the Israelites a proper reverence for God’s creation.
Abridged from { Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament: New Updated Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright © 1996 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc. All rights reserved.)
David Lewayne Porter
So then you see the point.
I firmly agree with the fact that God wants others to see His mark on us.
(Personally I agree with you), yet our rationale must be Scripturally accurate inorder to make a difference.
But, By the way,
You in your first post said,
“the scriptures (Word of God to mankind) both Old and New Testament(s) show the creator’s intent. The owners manual clearly says do not make marks on your body.”
Do you see/show any references in the New Testament on this topic?
Terry Wiles
I believe the New Testament declares that “all scripture” is there for instruction in righteousness. Outside of some specific cases I have no tolerance for those who want to parce it otherwise.
David Lewayne Porter
Then please explain the Jerusalem Council and their directives to the Gentiles.
Varnel Watson
One would think that until seeing an actual tattoo of Leviticus 19:28 http://www.faithtattoos.org/recent-news-on-faith-tattoos/why-christian-tattoos-can-be-a-controversial-subject-and-yet-so-popular/
Terry Wiles
That’s right up there in league with “Christian” book sellers who market books with contradicting doctrine. Neither is about faith. Both are about profit and personal gain. I do believe there is something in the NEW Testament about that for “believers and Gentiles”.
Jon Ray
Most Christian book publishers (and Christian media sites) in America are owned by secular owners with secular agenda
Jon Ray
The reason against. It’s just bad theology Ricky Grimsley Dan Swenson
David Lewayne Porter
Wow.
And there we have it.
Jon Ray
and future 🙂 Ricky Grimsley
Ricky Grimsley
What do we have? A tattoo?
Jon Ray
Nice tattoos make bad theology! Worse than bumper sticker
Varnel Watson
Neah I say unto thee