| Marc Jackson |
Bob I am taking you on this very very timely post Maybe if the church did better in multi ethnic ministry DACA would have not been an issue at all. In US history the Church have always been an integral part of America’s culture melting pot. Not so in recent decades when sub-cultures are formed in every major city and now even in small rural towns – MI towns all Muslim, Dalton GA 99% hispanic and so on During some doctoral research back in the day when sub-cultures was on the rise, we polled 100 mid-large Pentecostal congregations in Atlanta areahow many wanted to do multi-cultural ministry – 100%how many have never done any or been trained to do any multi-cultural ministry – 100%That is 100 of 100. Other questions were more checkered. Let;s take this talk from there – training to do cross/multi culture ministry – do we have it ? |
| Bob Wizenhut |
We are in the middle of it. It’s not easy stuff. |
| Marc Jackson |
Let’s talk about it more. What are you dealing with it? Bob Wizenhut |
| Bob Wizenhut |
I’m sorry, your question is what or how? |
| Marc Jackson |
What difficulties are you experiencing in multicultural ministry in 2018 http://churchinfluence.com/what-you-need-to-know-about…/ |
| Bob Wizenhut |
It’s just a challenge mixing not just two races but two social economic groups. We’ve gotten through getting people of color on staff, on the worship team and among the elders but still are wondering if our entire organization and decision making process might be oriented towards upper middle class white professionals. It all the work and challenges any church would have plus an extra element to consider. Things that pull in those that have been here 50 years may not pull in the new attendees the same way. |
| Marc Jackson |
practical exercise for students of multi cultural ministrysomeone told them the best way to minister to them is to feed themso they got ready to fix a feast but got stuckthe church brought together latinos, europeans and muslims what would the best menu be? Walter Polasik |
| Bob Wizenhut |
Well we do have a lot of eating events and we have food out before the service, which attracts people from the community. |
| Marc Jackson |
what meal would fit the said multi-cultural group? |
| Bob Wizenhut |
Lamb? |
| Marc Jackson |
Lamb of God? Joseph D. Absher Joseph Castillo |
| Joseph Castillo |
Troy Day Fried Chicken and Watermelon reaches all races and cultural barriers from Bangladesh, South Korea and Harlem New York. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
If social work is your desire fine. Its a noble endeavor. But it’s not the gospel. We need “unity in the community” it may be some still have no voice in govovernment. Help anyway you can. God bless. I can only hope that gospel preaching doesn’t get derailed with all the good intentions. It does happen. Pastors, teachers, evangelist prophets apostles, help mercy, administrations. We need all the manifestations of God’s grace. |
| Walter Polasik |
Bob Wizenhut, Gentkemen:I live in inner-city Philadelphia, PA. Here it’s easy to become a bitter racist with some of the things that go on (crime, issues in the schools—I’ve taught in them). But I also also attend a great church in my old neighborhood of Juniata called Bethel Chapel Church. We began (before I got there) as a primarily, predominantly white church. Our neighborhood however is heavily Hispanic, African-American. So, we knew , as comfortable as it might otherwise feel, we couldn’t aim for a “white enclave” or “oasis” in the middle “da hood”. That wouldn’t last. But we did do ministry, reaching out, getting to know the community. Over the past decade now that I’ve been with the church, we’ve grown to a healthy mix of “everybody & their cousins”. We have black, Hispanic, brethren and are involved in community events. When it comes to food, you can always find great Spanish food (Puerto-Rican, Mexican) at our pot-lucks etc. Just last week, Gene, a tall black man in a probation/recovery program walked in to our church mid-service. I was in the lobby at the time and got him to stay after service for our small-group time (and food). Word has gotten out that our old-style looking building isn’t full of old-style people & ideas. .. |
| Walter Polasik |
Before Bethel Chapel I had also been part of Kensington Assembly of God on Frankford ave. (Over the years it kinda morphed into a predominantly Spanish church and then got a new pastor). It’s in a gritty part of town (when I attended, I got held up at gun-point during broad daylight on my way to church). So, this kind of ministy comes with challenges. But, I’m reminded that back in the “bad old days”, especially in the Old South, (circa 1914) lynchings were going on while, paradoxically in California the Azusa street revival was going on, where black, white, Hispanic and people from all over the world worshipped God together. I have found that some of the best churches are multi-ethnic churches. Everyone can feel at home there and the focus is on the ministry, togetherness, edification and not on racial, cultural issues. By contrast, white-only, black only churches don’t do so well. I’ve been in a few black-only churches. It just feels different. Ya stand out more. 😉 |
| Walter Polasik |
www.bethelchapelchurch.com |
| Bob Wizenhut |
Not sure how DACA really relates to the original post but maybe if Walter Polasik starts a new thread on DACA (if he can figure out a way to make it relate to theology instead of politics) I’ll weigh in. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
God bless you sir. The last couple of years have been tough in the inner city. The charities did alright. The free book bags the free hotdogs, day old bread etc. But gospel preaching not so well. It hasn’t been safe. Tensions have been high. Maybe God will bring some settling this year and the gospel go forth with liberty. It’s funny I really don’t blame it on racism. It’s some of it. But the majority is sin and old fashioned rebellion to God.I remember comment by Dr. King that Sunday morning remains the most segregated hour in America. I thinks it’s still true. Though we have made some prgress. I’m sure you are familiar with the old saying beauty is only skin deep but ugly is to the bone. I’ve been treated well most places I visit. I don’t care how tough you are everybody needs to feel loved. I usually pray along those lines on Saturday night for or Sunday service. That our strangers and visitors feel welcome and loved and safe. It’s an important part of any gathering together of God’s people. We want to represent our Lord. His love and grace. I think also it gives substance and credibility to our testimony. And the preaching of the gospel. “That God so loved the world…” Maybe in one post we can leave our differences behind. Have fun stay and give God the glory in everything. |
| Dan Irving |
An interesting observation is that multi-ethnicity IS notably present at such places as WOF assemblies. Why is that? (That would be an interesting question to consider.) |
| Walter Polasik |
Dan Irving: Multi-ethnicity has been a hall-mark of Pentecostalism proper. A good friend of mine attends an A.M.E./Pentecostal-type church that is THE ONLY mixed A.M.E church in its district (I drop in there every now and again and have played piano in their services). WOF is an aberration, a hijacking of Pentecostalism not worth the name (should be called “Word of Presumption”). |
| Dan Irving |
I would certainly agree. (Not trying to take any pointers from aberrant sources.). But, if a trait we count as positive is most common to an abberational example, it might bear reflecting upon as it’s meaning. |
| Dan Irving |
As to |
| Walter Polasik |
Dan Irving: Well, homosexuality is a very integrated practice. That doesn’t mean we should stop being an integrated society just because people come together for bad reasons. The B’hais and Jehovah’s Witnesses are also pretty integrated. That doesn’t make a multi-ethnic body bad, just their theology is rotten. 😇 |
| Marc Jackson |
Walter Multi-ethnicity WAS a hall-mark of Pentecostalism proper back in the day. It has not been for a long time. More so since the last elections and pro-DACA evangelicals |
| Walter Polasik |
Troy Day, you nincompoop—we’re anti-illegal immigrant evangelicals, that don’t mean anti-Hispanic PERIOD. Being against flood-tide immigration doesn’t make anyone racist. We have enough people to minister to here, every shade of skin tone you can imagine. But we don’t need floods of illegals who then strain our welfare system. Plenty of our own, legal citizens need the welfare. We can’t afford to bring half the world in. |
| Marc Jackson |
Walter Polasik is this the DACA post? Oh well I will just say it. Current administration has figured out how to save billions for the budget. Cut off child tax credit ($1000 until now but some $2500 with IEC under the new TCJA) for children without social security. You do the math – but dont let Jerome do it cause he may quadruple it 🙂 |
| Walter Polasik |
I would like to ask the primary question the OP asks: ought multi-ethnicity be a “biblical mandate” in the church? This is actually a more complicated question than it seems like because of at least three things: 1.) The general ease of transportation today and what that means for migration. Just based on this alone we have people from far-flung pockets of the world travelling to and living in other far-flung pockets of the world. In general what has been termed “globalization” has slowly created awareness of others in our midst, people of different races, cultures, languages. Even in more homogenous societies like Poland’s there are now African students living there, others of African, Romanian, even Chinese roots who have come for one reason or another and taken Polish citizenship. Globalization means we are not as isolated any more. 2.) Emphasis on “multi-culturalism” which term has come to mean many things. It had originally meant the awareness, understanding and appreciation of other ways and cultures and how these have influenced our Western one. But it devolved into the practical loss of any culture whatsoever (and the devaluation of Western culture particularly) and now just means resigned acceptance of the amalgam and hodge-podge we especially have called “American society”. “Multi-culturalism” in particular and pluralism (not only of people groups/ethnicities but of ideas and values as well) has come to mean a loss of center and standard in society. In a multi-cultural society there is no such thing anymore as “the way WE do things” simply because there is no core stock of “we”. No central culture into which to either assimilate or by which to measure difference. This leads to the third point, 3.) Namely, Globalism. This concept encompasses the growing, accelerating process of interconnectivity, globalization but is more than that, meaning a philosophy of a new political entity: a one-world government which presides not over distinct, sovereign nation-states, distinct ethnic groups and cultural spheres but over a forcibly integrated people, at the mercy of a tightly controlled economic system and a new political order. Borders, nations-states and distinct cultures having been obliterated. . . . |
| Walter Polasik |
These three elements, the first when taken to great lengths and with events like the Arab Spring thrown in (which swept thousands of Middle Eastern, especially Syrian, migrants on European shores), work against the maintenance of a traditional country and relatively homogenous society. On such a scale, the integration and acceptance of “the other” morphs into the dissolution of the host society/culture. That’s the scary part. On the other hand Bob Wizenhut mentioned, among other scriptures, Revelation 7 and I believe specifically verse 9. This shows a “great multitude” of people in heaven, before the throne of God, worshipping. People “of all nations, and kindreds and tongues” together standing as the redeemed of the Lord worshipping. Based on this I believe the Bible is for keeping cultures and distinct ethnicities intact, special and unique in the panoply of the world, as they are, but to bring such people together in Christ as His body and proof of the meaning of love and the futility of hate, strife, rancor and division. What think ye? |
| Bob Wizenhut |
There is the “edit” feature you know |
| Marc Jackson |
Walter Polasik to your 3 points (1) travel to all lands known was much more easy during Pax Romana using via Romana; not just individuals but whole tribes and nations migrated at ease (2) uni-culture was much more plausible back then that multi-culture is today(3) globalism was basically at its peak with one empire ruling them all So none of these is an acceptable excuse for lack of multi-cultural approach to ministry today. I think the problem is this:Early church emerged from multi-culture and knew how to operate in such contextChurch today knows only its own culture making it super hard if even impossible to adjust to a multi-cultural ministry model Bob |
| Walter Polasik |
I agree. 😇 |
| Bob Wizenhut |
Jesus said that they would go to the ends of the earth. But they didn’t volunteer, it happened only after Rome destroyed Jerusalem. In the 2000 years since we’ve seen the church surge in waves, again, often through God working not when Christians obeyed but when they failed to obey. And that might happen again in our time. But back to the original question. What if we actually followed the mandate from the Bible voluntarily instead of being forced to like the early church? |
| Marc Jackson |
well many of the crusaders volunteered but that wasnt the right way for spreading the Kingdom either |
| Marc Jackson |
Back to you Bob 🙂 |
| Joseph D. Absher |
It might be a little disengenous to advocate multicultural unity under the spiteful black lives matter flag. My experience with them has not been good |
| Bob Wizenhut |
Tell me more about your experience with BLM |
| Marc Jackson |
Joseph D. Absher you might have just as well shut down this discussion |
| Walter Polasik |
I’m totally for the SENTIMENT that black lives do matter. Of course they do. But the politics of the actual organization . . .ummm….has much to be desired. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
You’ve already said you’re “only a franchise” so why ask now? Let’s just say, “in my experience” they are violent and reject the gospel of Jesus Christ. No different than any of the other drunken haters. White or black or brown. You’ve chosen to fly their flag. Bravo! in the words of the late Fredrick Douglas “agitate agitate” God bless I wish you well. But let’s not forget the gospel of Jesus Christ. And the souls of men |
| Joseph D. Absher |
Mr Troy Day this discussion will go on despite any inconvenience. I’m meeting with my social justice friends Saturday it will be fun. They’ll be lectures on being a man I’m sure. I hope it’s not a fad. But there are some great teachings on it these days. Can’t wait until our Iraq veterans get in the game… |
| Joseph D. Absher |
My one concern is first that God receive the glory. First and foremost. And second that men get ready to meet him on that great day. While justice in this life is a noble and manly and necessary pursuit, it is that day when all men great and small and quick and dead stand before the judgment seat of Christ that concerns me. I don’t fault others for their pursuits. Let every man abide in his calling. I just thought it was important to call out my Christian brother on his affiliation with and representation of black lives matter. They matter all God’s children matter. Even the children of the devil have rights in this country. How we treat our fellow man and love our fellow man is the essential element of our Christian faith. Trust me I am down for the struggle… |
| Marc Jackson |
Walter Polasik In my previous 3-point post, the early church in a multicultural context faced various cultures as early as chapter 2 – when there was a multitude from every nation chapter 6 – when Greek deacons were put over the care for Greek widows chapter 8 – when the foreign eunuch was baptized chapter 10 – when Roman centurion received the Holy Ghost |
| Bob Wizenhut |
Joseph D. Absher – The Black Lives Matter movement is a organization of scores of independent chapters. They aren’t like McDonald’s where you will get the same experience no matter where you go. And, your impressions are likely shaped by what you read in the media, who wants to create a specific image for their own purpose. So let’s just say that Black Lives Matter Cincinnati publishes memes that speak to systemic injustice but comes from a Biblical perspective. I expect you might appreciate some of our work. |
| Joseph D. Absher |
What I know I didn’t read in the papers. God bless you. And keep you safe in Jesus name |
| Marc Jackson |
Joseph D. Absher didnt you meet some Israelites in the street too? |
| Joseph D. Absher |
Yes sir. No man owns the street. It’s a fool that thinks he does. And no man owns the Bible or justice either. You better make sure the Bible and justice owns you! |
| Walter Polasik |
Oh, I LOVE the “black Israelites” (or “black Hebrews” as they call themselves). I’ve tried rationally debating with them from the Bible. . .but you can never get a word in edgewise. Wow! |
| Marc Jackson |
hey Walter Polasik the real questions are the ones marked with This one by them, that you are still not answering |
| Walter Polasik |
Troy, you’re something else, you know that? |
| Jared Cheshire |
Every church I have been a part of in my life has been “multi-ethnic” i didn’t realize this was such a problem in many areas untill I started teavling as a young adult. I just accepted that we all bleed red because we all have the same Creator. |
| Jevan Little |
1. Lots of churches are multi ethnic.2. Lots of “ethnics” prefer to go to the church of their ethnicity. In my area we reach out to any one regardless of their ethnicity |
| Marc Jackson |
Lots of “ethnics” prefer to go to the church of their ethnicity – thats true. Whats your area? |
| Jevan Little |
So Cal |
| Marc Jackson |
So Cal – is that an area or a country 🙂 San Diego? |
| Jevan Little |
Southern California |
| Marc Jackson |
San Diego? |
| Jevan Little |
Further north |
| Marc Jackson |
so you are rally not so So Cal 🙂 you are so so So Cal |
| Jevan Little |
I live in Southern California |
| Jerome Herrick Weymouth |
So Cal is where I’m at…and House of Praise reaches out to all. I think secragated churches are wrong in not allowing other folks in. But there are some because of languages and cultures. Ex: Russian, Chinese, and Spanish speaking churches! |
Varnel Watson
good question Hugh Lowrie Isara Mo why not
Hugh Lowrie
Hugh Lowrie
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Tribalism, nationalism, ethnicism, sectarianism etc have spritual roots..
That question would lead to such other questions as this :why arent Christians who are said to be of One Baptism and One Lord and One Salvation one BIBLE CANNOT WORSHIP IN ONE PLACE…?
Why cant Christians have just ONE DENOMINATION and worship under it?
This will resolve the problem of lack of multi racial or ethnicity congregations …
Nevertheless i have seen denominations and churches which are multi racial …
Blessed are they for they have transcended the racial ethinic divide..
But for those who come and worship together and forget their skin color what a beautiful sight…
Will Sovie
A better question is why must they be multi cultural ?
Isara Mo
Will Sovie
Because Jesus purchased by His blood a diversity not a particular race or tribe or nation..
Listen to this scripture
//And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every
tribe
and language
and people
and nation.
Revelation 5:9 NIV//
So a church MUST BE MULTI to fulfil the above..
Brian Roden
We have actually had African-Americans come to our church that for its first 80 years was very much majority white because they want to be part of a diverse church. Our ratios pretty much match the demographics of our metro area. Black, white, Asian, and Hispanic. Many multi-ethnic families.
Varnel Watson
Hugh Lowrie you are posting the stuff presented by an x-member Bob Wizenhut What is your connection with the last?
Hugh Lowrie
We are both very involved in Black Lives Matter Cincinnati. What is your issue with Bob? What exactly makes you uncomfortable about talking about what the Bible has to say on multiethnic topics?
Varnel Watson
Hugh Lowrie why would there be an issue? I simply noted you posted his stuff like you authored it and being quite interested in the topics of Gods mission to America via multicultural churches I wondered what would be your involvement What is your personal take on this?
Hugh Lowrie
Troy Day – All I know is that whenever I post, you immediately delete it, signally that you feel threatened by the connection between God’s missional call and theology.
Varnel Watson
Hugh Lowrie you make less and less sense to me but I think I may have found the reason for that in your multiple profiles spamming the group with fake news So be it ! BTW you have not posted nothing about God’s mission 🙂 even when I specifically posted topics on it and discussed it with others but you are welcome to post your so called theological and missional creatures – pls make sure they are not from fake profiles because FB bans such before anyone sees them Heres my 276 items I’ve posted on #missions Where is yours? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/category/missions/
Kevin Clark
Because culture attracts culture and all of us have been affected by culture. Ask people that have left a church in an asia country. They will most likely look for a church that is similar to what they know. That being said, our church probably has a 60-40 demographic between caucasian and african-american.
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi were you @ one time uncovering that the Cinci duo Bob and Hugh were one and the same person misrepresenting themselves as a minority trying to get minorities for Trump or some odd preset goal I am forgetting now Did we figure out who stood behind these fake profiles? Just trying to remember what was the exact deal ther eback in time
Nelson Banuchi
Not me… not that I remember…
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi you dont remember his profile avatar being a picture of MLK? I must be forgetting then
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day No, I don’t remember. Anything past two days, I forget…?
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi I dont I just asked Daniel J Hesse and this will help me remember what was the deal
Jesse James Sullivan
Cults have a tendency to stick to their own doctrines…
Varnel Watson
RT Michael Ellis Carter Jr. When attempting to build a multicultural church/ministry do everything you can to immerse yourself in that culture and community, so that you can build proper contextual bridges and create a welcoming culture
Contextualization attempts to communicate the Gospel in word and deed and to establish the church in ways that make sense to people within their local cultural context, presenting Christianity in such a way that it meets people�s deepest needs and penetrates their worldview, thus allowing them to follow Christ
Syncretism, in this case, is the mixing of Christianity with something else such that they become a different gospel. Syncretism can take place
Ethnocentrism is the belief in the inherent superiority of one’s own group and cultures,
accompanied by a feeling of contempt for other groups and cultures (2nd Revised Edition
of Macquarie’s Dictionary). Would this be the major hindrance to the Church’s
partnership-in-mission today?
This paper explores and raises questions concerning the conflicts caused by ‘an attitude’
of ethnocentrism that produces segregation and division in the Church as opposed to a
more effective proclamation of the Gospel that enhances unity and the ‘Catholic Spirit’
that John Wesley urged.
Social, political, economic and religious instabilities in our World have caused the
greatest emigration movements in our history, which stirs up and instigates fresh
challenges for the Church’s mission and governance. The Pacific Island Churches in
Australia (the Tongan context an example) whilst fervent in their gatherings are
compounded and influenced by cultural exploits that undermines the truth of the Gospel.
This calls for authentic Christian leadership and critical hermeneutics.
How do we face up to these challenges and what tools for mission from our Methodist
Tradition could be used to encourage cross-cultural integration and not ‘reverse mission’
as these Tongan Church congregations look to their Home Church overseas, for
ownership and governance?
The Church’s Mission is strengthened by actual consistencies of unity-in-diversity and
not in segregation and exclusion. Whilst diversity continues to strengthen the Body of
Christ and her Mission, cross-cultural co-operation and integration is difficult. The
temptation is to think that the best solution is avoiding contact and not creating pathways
that works.
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Troy Day I am Concerned that our churches today are more interested in preaching a seeker sensitive watered down gospel than we are in preaching a Christ Centered culturally relevant gospel. Culturally relevant churches that are apologetically responsible will identify the need to demonstrate the gospel in their local community and outreach efforts. Our in reach and discipleship methods must lead to communal harmony inside before we focus our attention on word missions.
Our churches have such a God complex and superior attitude that we attempt to fix others and change those we disagree with, all the while we have major issues and concerns ourselves. Some of our churches are lead my unloving, unlearned, and inconsiderate men who are not apathetic to anyone who is different then themselves.
We build our churches in neighborhoods and ignore the culture and the dynamics of community that existed long before we erect our sanctuaries. If we partnered with our local communities they would in turn embrace our churches and reflect the diversity that are found within them.
Thanks for sharing…
Varnel Watson
seeker sensitive watered down gospel is brought by a FEW who are a bit too loud on the internet using 2-3 marketing tricks they learned from the corporate world
and thinking it will work in the Kingdom – the crowd is never the Kingdom and soon they shall learn The majority of churches are still straight – they just need to get it going on And there you need trained leaders
Although Joe Absher will give you his stance that purpose driven leaders often leave many dead behind
but as for the seeker churches I aint too concerned with them You get in and with all the noise and lights and coffee it smells like spiritually dead corpses ANY prophetically inclined and Holy Ghost filled person sees through it – with all the pretty sermonette series and pastoral pink shirts
Jesse James Sullivan
Cults generally stick to their own.
Varnel Watson
Jesse James Sullivan Jesse Morrell Michael Ellis Carter Jr. love yalls responses I know for a fact you dont copy paste like RichardAnna Boyce so I am interested in the way one arrives at those concussions BTW we are at a level in this group where very soon it will be possible to setup a watch party of lIVE discussions The internet allows it and several of us could video group talk live in the group in real time on various topics – Calvin, Trump will be some of the first live round tables Nelson Banuchi