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Библията Тв | PentecostalTheology.com
Holy Ghost / Holy Spirit: Are they One and the Same?
Joshua Nielsen
Um, what in the world? The rendering of the terms πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον and רוּחַ הַקֹּדֶשׁ are a matter for translation but its pointless and bizarre to ask whether an older Shakespearean English version of the translation somehow refers to an entirely different entity than the same Greek or Hebrew designation translated into modern English instead.
Remove the English part and you literally can’t even ask this question.
I really hope some strange heresy is not being suggested in this question.
Varnel Watson
There are many Greek words for ghost
Joshua Nielsen
Show me a specific passage that we can discuss please.
Varnel Watson
In the English Bible? Spirits in English mean lots of things
Joshua Nielsen
No, what I mean is this whole conversation is theoretical until you can point me to a verse where you think it should read “Holy Ghost” instead of “Holy Spirit”, if indeed that’s what your wanting to suggest. I’m still fairly confused about your point. Specifics would be helpful (verses and the underlying Greek words).
Gerardo de Dominicis
In Spanish is Holy Spirit and that’s it. Not any reference to a Holy Ghost, so this discussion for Spanish speakers would be non sense.
Joshua Nielsen
And it has been rendered solely as “Heilige Geist” in German from at least as far back as Martin Luther’s translation.
Joshua Nielsen
In fact, linguistically I’m fairly certain that the English word Ghost derives from the Germanic word Geist, which simply means spirit.
Heilige Geist = Holy Spirit.
Gerardo de Dominicis
ghost
ɡōst
noun
noun: ghost; plural noun: ghosts
1.
an apparition of a dead person that is believed to appear or become manifest to the living, typically as a nebulous image.
“the building is haunted by the ghost of a monk”
sinónimos: specter, phantom, wraith, spirit, presence; Más
apparition;
informalspook
“his ghost haunts the crypt”
a faint trace of something.
“she gave the ghost of a smile”
sinónimos: trace, hint, suggestion, impression, suspicion, tinge; Más
glimmer, semblance, shadow, whisper
“the ghost of a smile”
a faint secondary image produced by a fault in an optical system or on a cathode ray screen, e.g., by faulty television reception or internal reflection in a mirror or camera.
verb
verb: ghost; 3rd person present: ghosts; past tense: ghosted; past participle: ghosted; gerund or present participle: ghosting
1.
act as ghostwriter of (a work).
“his memoirs were smoothly ghosted by a journalist”
2.
glide smoothly and effortlessly.
“they ghosted up the river”
3.
end a personal relationship with (someone) by suddenly and without explanation withdrawing from all communication.
“I didn’t want to ghost her, so we ended up having ‘the talk’ and it was horrible”
Old English gāst (in the sense ‘spirit, soul’), of Germanic origin; related to Dutch geest and German Geist . The gh- spelling occurs first in Caxton, probably influenced by Flemish gheest .
Joshua Nielsen
But one can go in endless circles when discussing translations. We need to discuss the original language in specific verses.
Varnel Watson
The question is not as elementary as one may suppose. πνεῦμα τὸ ἅγιον is also a translation that does not fully render the Hebrew. As a matter of fact, the translators of LXX used Spirit of God when they first encountered the term in Genesis 1:2 and since there we have been dealing with dynamic equivalent and not an exact translation
Now even if we start with the epistemology of the words we are still dealing with translation But lets start there – do you feel the hebrew and the greek say the same thing when naming the Holy Spirit?
Gerardo de Dominicis
As far as I know the word Phantasma only appears once: when Jesus walks on the water and the disciples believe that they are seeing a ghost. The word phantasma is never used to refer the Spirit of God.
Joshua Nielsen
Interesting tidbit about the LXX. But based on what you said below you were only asking whether Ghost or Spirit was more appropriate in terms of translation, right? Or are you actually trying to suggest the Hebrew means something different than the Greek? And if so how do you avoid the conclusion that 2 different beings are being referred to?
Varnel Watson
Gerardo de Dominicis Yes Mt 14 but is nevertheless commonly used in Attic Greek Then Luke uses python as divinating spirit and so on…
Old English gast “breath; good or bad spirit, angel, demon; person, man, human being,” in Biblical use “soul, spirit, life,” from Proto-Germanic *gaistaz (source also of Old Saxon gest, Old Frisian jest, Middle Dutch gheest, Dutch geest, German Geist “spirit, ghost”). This is conjectured to be from a PIE root *gheis-, used in forming words involving the notions of excitement, amazement, or fear (source also of Sanskrit hedah “wrath;” Avestan zaesha- “horrible, frightful;” Gothic usgaisjan, Old English gæstan “to frighten”).
Ghost is the English representative of the usual West Germanic word for “supernatural being.” In Christian writing in Old English it is used to render Latin spiritus (see spirit (n.)), a sense preserved in Holy Ghost. Sense of “disembodied spirit of a dead person,” especially imagined as wandering among the living or haunting them, is attested from late 14c. and returns the word toward its likely prehistoric sense.
Most Indo-European words for “soul, spirit” also double with reference to supernatural spirits. Many have a base sense of “appearance” (such as Greek phantasma; French spectre; Polish widmo, from Old Church Slavonic videti “to see;” Old English scin, Old High German giskin, originally “appearance, apparition,” related to Old English scinan, Old High German skinan “to shine”). Other concepts are in French revenant, literally “returning” (from the other world), Old Norse aptr-ganga, literally “back-comer.” Breton bugelnoz is literally “night-child.” Latin manes probably is a euphemism.
Gerardo de Dominicis
You won’t find any bible in Spanish language where Holy Spirit (Espíritu Santo) is translated as Holy Ghost (Fantasma Santo) or any other similar word. I think is a translation issue in the English language and has its roots in the fact that English vocabulary is 50% from the Latin directly or thru the French but also has 50% German vocabulary in it, that’s why in English you have two words (one from the Latin and other from the German) to describe the same thing. As I said before in Spanish we would never come to the idea that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost are different beings because in Spanish both are translated as Espíritu Santo.
Varnel Watson
Gerardo de Dominicis The Spanish or any translation is irrelevant in the discussion. Furthermore most Spanish / Portuguese derives from Latin so no help with the argument there either
The Hebrew ruach means “wind,” “breath,” or “spirit.”
: “The Spirit of God [Ruach Elohim] was hovering over the waters” (Genesis 1:2)
Genesis 6:17 ruach is translated “breath of life.”
Genesis 8:1 uses ruach to describe the “wind” God sent over the earth to recede the Flood waters.
The Greek word PNEUMA is the disposition or influence which fills and governs the soul of any one. the efficient source of any power, affection, emotion, desire, etc. a movement of air (a gentle blast). of the wind, hence the wind itself; breath of nostrils or mouth. Hence the play of words in Acts where the Spirit – wind came as a mighty rushing wind
Gerardo de Dominicis
I understand the meaning of ruach and pneuma but I don’t know from where you get that the Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost could be two different beings. I stated that the Spanish language bibles translate as Espíritu Santo (Holy Spirit) and the translators of the first bibles in Spanish were well versed in Hebrew and Greek (you could contrast a Reina Valera with a KJV and you’ll see that the Spanish version is a much better translation) if there would be something in the Greek or Hebrew that could suggest the existence of a Holy Spirit and a Holy Ghost as two different “entities” then that would be reflected in the translations but as far I can see that the English bibles are the only ones where this problem arises because the translators used indistinctly the Latin and German words used in English: spirit and Ghost, the same way in English you can use “commence” instead of begin or “enamored” for fall in love, etc.
Varnel Watson
I dont get that Holy Spirit and the Holy Ghost could be two different beings 🙂 Where are you getting that from?
Gerardo de Dominicis
I think I got that from the OP and Joshua’s Nielsen first answer. If I understood wrong my apologies, brother.
Varnel Watson
oh no – certainly not 2 beings 🙂 The question was merely addressing terminology in modern day translations and how the meaning of God’s Spirit has been deliberately departed from its original meaning and use Joshua Nielsen may have assumed otherwise
Gerardo de Dominicis
Oh ok, I understand now. In this case I might say that Holy Spirit is a more accurate translation because even when “Ghost” comes from a Germanic root that means “spirit”, in modern English a Ghost is the equivalent to the Greek “phantasma” and is used to designate the spirit of a dead person.
Joshua Nielsen
Yes, this is the necessary clarification. However, boy did you choose a confusing route to bring this up when your OP could have rather said: Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit: Which translation is better?”
That would have removed all this other useless discussion about the meaning of Ghost. Many words in 1611 didn’t have the same meaning as they do now (take “prevent” as one word that appears in the KJV), and so while Ghost was probably appropriate for the period is it not now since the meaning has changed.
William Tyndale when he translated the NT from Greek (which the KJV translators followed) did not have phantasma in mind when using the word ghost. Rather, as I pointed out, it probably had more affinities with the Germanic word Geist, which certainly did not have an innate association with phantasma, and was used by Luther (and all Germans to refer to a spirit).
Varnel Watson
William Tyndale translated the NT from Greek ? 🙂 Which Greek NT did he use for his translation?
Joshua Nielsen
Interesting. You didn’t know that William Tyndale was one of the first English speaking people to have access to and translate Greek from Erasmus’ texts, after the 1000 year reign of Latin? That’s what makes Tyndale’s work and life so exciting. Finally a much more accurate text was being translated for the first time in English. Wycliffe’s earlier text was translated from Latin.
Some speculate that Tyndale may have briefly met Martin Luther (who was also using Erasmus’ text) while hiding in Germany, but we have no records of the two ever meeting.
Check out this little tidbit on Tyndale from Wikipedia:
“Tyndale worked in an age in which Greek was available to the European scholarly community for the first time in centuries. Erasmus compiled and edited Greek Scriptures following the Fall of Constantinople in 1453. Constantinople’s fall helped to fuel the Renaissance and led to the dispersion of Greek-speaking intellectuals and texts into a Europe which previously had no access to them.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale
Joshua Nielsen
I highly recommend this awesome DVD on Tyndale’s life. They interview the greatest recent biographer of Tyndale in modern times, David Daniell (who passed away in 2016) as part of it. Daniell said Tyndale influenced all of Shakespeare’s Biblical quotations: https://www.amazon.com/William-Tyndale-His-Life-Legacy/dp/B000J3YOBO
Joshua Nielsen
Tyndale’s translation preceded even the Great Bible and the Geneva Bible. I have been honored to see most early English Bibles in person, from hand written Wycliffe Bibles, to the Coverdale Bible, Great Bible, Geneva Bible (I have a leaflet of it), leaflets of Tyndale’s Bible, and a 1611 KJV (I have a 1650 reprint leaflet).
Varnel Watson
Basic stuff. Here is what actually happened – he used Latin Vulgate and old English translations – that’s it
. Tyndale used Erasmus’ 1522 edition of the Greek New Testament, Erasmus’ Latin New Testament, Luther’s German Bible, as well as the Latin Vulgate. His source of the Hebrew Old Testament may have been the Complutensian Polyglot.
Joshua Nielsen
Um, you just contradicted yourself in your own comment. You first denied that Tyndale used Greek in his translation (good luck proving that) and then admitted he used Erasmus’ 1522 Greek New Testament.
Varnel Watson
Joshua Nielsen back to LXX – do you feel the Greek fully translates the proper theological terminology ?
Joshua Nielsen
Cut to the chase. Are you suggesting that ruach hakodesh means something different than pneuma to hagion?
While the LXX is not perfect and you always go to the original when translating (hence Hebrew for the OT) Jesus and the Apostles actually quote from the LXX on occasion (while there are some occasional divergent Greek quotes that don’t match our extant Septuagint documents).
But the clearest way to know there is a link in terminology is to look for Old Testament quotations in the Greek NT. Acts 2:17 is one obvious place, where Peter quotes from Joel. It is irrelevant that the descriptor Holy is not present in that quote because when God says “my spirit” it always means the Holy Spirit.
Also, just prior to a quotation in the book of Hebrews the Holy Spirit is attributed the words recorded in the Old Testament spoken by YHWH: Hebrews 10:15.
Joshua Nielsen
I still don’t get what it is you are being skeptical of. Are you thinking most Christians and scholars have overlooked some major thing where ruach haqodesh refers to a different being than pneuma to hagion? You already claimed you didn’t believe in two separate being but then you keep coming back and making suggestions that imply that. Please make it clear what the bottom line is in what you are suggesting instead of beating around the bush.
Louise Cummings
Yes it’s the same.
Varnel Watson
Which one do you say Timothy Carter
Timothy Carter
I use Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost interchangeably to refer to the 3rd person of the Godhead.
I believe it is simply a matter of preference. For example, my name is Timothy. Some people prefer to call me Timothy others prefer to call me Tim. They are referring to the same man.
To be clear, to say Holy Ghost versus Holy Spirit referring to two different aspects of the same person.
The Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit/Ghost each have multiple names. Each name for each one displays a unique attribute of His person.
Holy Spirit does not show a different attribute than does Holy Ghost. Holy Spirit /Ghost does have multiple names to display His unique attributes. But Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost are representative of the person Himself in all of His attributes.
When we refer to each one of the 3 in their individual completeness we use these names, God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit/Ghost.
To show the Father is our provider we call Him, Jehovah Jireh.
To show the Son as our redeemer we call Him, Savior.
To show Holy Spirit/Ghost is our helper we call Him,
Paraclete.
Louise Cummings
When I am talking about Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit. I have always believed it’s the same meaning. But spirits,could be talking about other things. I was referring to Holy Spirit and Holy Ghost being the same. Where the Bible talks about try the spirits to see if they be Of God. I wasn’t talking about those kind of spirits. Because the Bible says that the Lord sent an evil spirit from the Lord on Saul. And Little David would play his harp. And the Spirit would leave. I wasn’t talking about those spirits being the same. I was talking about like the Baptism of the Holy Spirit , or the Baptism Of The Holy Ghost. Being the same.
Louise Cummings
I didn’t mean to capitalize Spirit in the place where David was playing his Harp , and the spirits would leave him.because the Bible talks a bout false spirits
Varnel Watson
What do you say about this Ify Divine Nsoha
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Dey chure es!!!
Varnel Watson
Jerome speaking in spanish tongues again 🙂