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RT @Ron Culbreth After doing my devotion today, as is my custom to do each year on this day I read the Declaration of Independence. I found it says the same thing it said when it was penned 143 years ago. A part of the document says ” We hold these truths to be self- evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”. We are assured in the document
HOWEVER @Robert Borders We have tens of thousands of refugees from Myanmar living within 20 miles of our house in Indiana and I have found the people to be delightful and very hard working.
RT @Jim Price As we celebrate the fourth of July and freedom I am reminded that 68 million, men, women and children are spending this day in refugee camps around the world. This is one of the highest numbers ever recorded.
One of the most desperate groups are the Rohingya who have been forced out of Myanmar. The U.N. says there are over 900,000 of them of which 600,000 plus are illiterate, 500,000 are children;all forced into a dense jungle like area in Bangladesh.
The U.N.through their member nations are trying to keep them alive. That’s like keeping a population the size of the Nashville area supplied through rough jungle roads. Just finding enough room for burial is a big challenge.
Just another way to compare our freedom and lifestyle here in America.
Rico Hero apart from the video (I dont believe in a Muslim antiChrist either but Ricky Grimsley may believe it ) a few questions
(1) for starters: ONLY the ones who take the mark of the Beast (whoever that may be) will not be able to buy or sell. Anything! Food, gas, electricity, water – absolutely nothing.
(2) The pastors will NOT be able to receive salaries, insurance or anything included in their package. Remember, if the church cannot buy or sale, neither can the pastor receive a salary. And even if a salary is given, what would the pastor spend it on without the mark of the beast?
(3) Tithing system – those are most usually set up with a paper check or some sort of electronic banking like debiting or crediting. With the mark of the beast, the church will NOT be able to receive those moneys and even if it does, it cannot operate with them to buy or sell anything.
(4) What about church buildings – without the mark of the beast they will not be able to purchase any service – electricity, lights, internet, gas for church vans, insurance, special events, catering, food – no communion elements. Nothing at all. With no professional services available, a church building may last a few months, but will fall apart soon before the Tribulation is over… Just think about it
(5) Any other church related logistics or operations that depend on the purchase of gasoline and transportation. They way current church infrastructure in America is set up, how many would actually take the time to walk miles and miles to a church?
RichardAnna Boyce
all of the Jewish american church will survive the tribulation.
Robert Erwine
“Jewish american church ” … explain what that is .
Varnel Watson
are you falling for dual covenant theology? Philip Williams it could be jewish law proselytizers ??? Tom Steele
Varnel Watson
RT Ron Culbreth After doing my devotion today, as is my custom to do each year on this day I read the Declaration of Independence. I found it says the same thing it said when it was penned 143 years ago. A part of the document says ” We hold these truths to be self- evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”. We are assured in the document
HOWEVER Robert Borders We have tens of thousands of refugees from Myanmar living within 20 miles of our house in Indiana and I have found the people to be delightful and very hard working.
RT Jim Price As we celebrate the fourth of July and freedom I am reminded that 68 million, men, women and children are spending this day in refugee camps around the world. This is one of the highest numbers ever recorded.
One of the most desperate groups are the Rohingya who have been forced out of Myanmar. The U.N. says there are over 900,000 of them of which 600,000 plus are illiterate, 500,000 are children;all forced into a dense jungle like area in Bangladesh.
The U.N.through their member nations are trying to keep them alive. That’s like keeping a population the size of the Nashville area supplied through rough jungle roads. Just finding enough room for burial is a big challenge.
Just another way to compare our freedom and lifestyle here in America.
Philip Williams
Some of those Enlightenment ideals in the Declaration were written by a Deist and are contrary to the Scriptures..e.g. ‘created for the pursuit of happiness.’ Such rights are destroying this nation. Of course, the author denied the deity of Jesus.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson OK, so the hiding in the rocks scenario, in which Jesus is most obviously speaking to the Jews. They knew how to carve hideaway caves in the lime rock of the desolated land and hide whole villages from the Romans. Let’s say my Indonesian related friend lives in mid-Georgia area near Atlanta. Which rocky area can he run into and hide his family, especially if with many kids? How long would be able to survive, having lived the city life and not knowing how to skin even a squirrel? And most importantly, what kind of church would that be that survives the Tribulation and comes into the Havens? Zero to none is perhaps the best answer for the post-trib scenario.
Link Hudson
Troy Day you start with a slit down the squirrels bacck but there is more tgan one way toskin a squirrel. I hear rats arecleaner.
None of your questions have anything to do with which eschatology is right. He told those in Judea….not Georgia… to flee into the mountains.
Ron Culbreth
Philip Williams Study history. You will find the truth.
Philip Williams
Ron Culbreth Problem is that I know this history better than David Barton. 🙂
Ron Culbreth
Philip Williams then you should know none of the ideas in the document were Jefferson’s.
Philip Williams
Ron Culbreth John Locke, but Isaac Newton’s denial of the divinity of Jesus by referring to the Supreme Creator instead of the Lord Jesus.
Ron Culbreth
Show me a better document, other than the bible, suitable for the declaring of one’s liberty from a tyrannical government.
Philip Williams
A more insightful title should be, “Can the American Church survive the Prosperity!”
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams indeed thou art truly deeply wrong on your claim about early Pentecostals not believing in the rapture They did too – This is from 1907 Apostolic Faith list
Those that get left In the rapture and still prove faithful to God and do not receive the mark of the beast, though they will have to suffer martYrdom, will be raised to reign with C’hrist. Antlch.rlst wllJ reign during the tribulation and everything will be Controlled by hIm and by the false prophet, when they have succeed.ed In unIting the whole world In acknowledging tho antichrist.
The Apostolic Faith (September, 1907)
There will be two appearances of Jesus under one coming. The first appearance is called the Rapture, when He comes as a thief in the night and catches away His bride; the second is called the Revelation when He shall come with ten thousand of His saints and destroy the wicked with the brightness of His coming, and when His feet shall touch the same mount from which He ascended. But we want to be ready for the first appearance, to be caught up. We must be caught up with Him, before we can come back with Him.
——–
Nothing but holy people will meet the Lord Jesus in the skies, when He comes in the rapture. Those that had no light on the baptism with the Holy Ghost but were sanctified will have part in the first resurrection, for the Word says, “Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection.” So we see the first resurrection is of the holy people. Those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus during the tribulation will be raised at His revelation. Rev. 20. 4 makes this plain.
***
The Lord Jesus is coming back with His bride on white horses from the marriage supper of the Lamb, to avenge His Blood on the antichrist and the false prophet.-Rev. 19:11, 14 and Jude 14, 15. The awful battle of Armageddon then takes place. Zechariah tells of this battle in the 14th chapter. Also we read in the last verse of this 14th chapter of Revelations, “And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horses’ bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.” Just think of 200 miles of blood up to the horses’ bridles.
Then the great millennium is ushered in when Jesus shall sit on His throne and reign from shore to shore. This is when, “The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock; and dust shall be the serpent’s meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the Lord.”-Isa. 65:25 and Isa. 11:6-9.
Then after we have reigned with Christ a thousand years, we shall sit on the judgment seat of Christ and judge men and angels. Then the justified and unrighteous will be raised to stand at the white throne judgment. The justified dead and those who lived during the millennium will be given everlasting life. That is the second resurrection.
Every full overcomer is going to be caught up when Jesus comes. O may God help His people that they all may meet Him in the skies. If you keep living this salvation moment by moment, you are going to be ready for the rapture, which is the coming of our Lord as a thief in the night to catch away His bride. Everyone that is not ready, like the foolish virgins, will be left to go through the awful tribulation that is coming on the earth.
and so on it all over the publication well preached and believed at Azusa
Apostolic Faith (Azusa Street) 1907_01
Apostolic Faith (Azusa Street) 1907_02
Apostolic Faith (Azusa Street) 1907_04
Apostolic Faith (Azusa Street) 1907_09
Apostolic Faith (Azusa Street) 1908_01
Apostolic Faith (Azusa Street) 1908_05
https://pentecostalarchives.org/search/index.cfm?fuseaction=search.FullTextResults
Philip Williams
That is certainly evidence that some early Pentecostals believed in the rapture however contrary to the early teachings of the latter rain. But thank you for pointing this out. I will stand corrected.
Varnel Watson
Perhaps for this reason a question is asked in the Revelations about Who are those coming from the Tribulation? If those are NOT Israel, the question is asked in the Holy Book in the most surprising matter. Both the asker and the answerer are quire surprised that ANYone has been able to pass through the Tribulation without taking the Mark of the Beast. The surprise in the text comes from only one reasonable explanation – the church is already in the Heavens, saved from any Tribulation and celebrating with the Lamb of God. The ones coming from the Tribulation are the exception to this rule. They are the Left Behind…
Philip Williams
Troy Day Revelation 7 makes it clear that the 12 tribes are the same as the multitude from all nations that have gone through the great tribulation. That shows the result of what Christ has been doing for about 2000 years,
Varnel Watson
Rico Hero Link Hudson Philip Williams Billy Monroe Poff I dont believe in a Muslim antiChrist so JUST a few questions on IF American church can survive Tribulation
(1) for starters: ONLY the ones who take the mark of the Beast (whoever that may be) will not be able to buy or sell. Anything! Food, gas, electricity, water – absolutely nothing.
(2) The pastors will NOT be able to receive salaries, insurance or anything included in their package. Remember, if the church cannot buy or sale, neither can the pastor receive a salary. And even if a salary is given, what would the pastor spend it on without the mark of the beast?
(3) Tithing system – those are most usually set up with a paper check or some sort of electronic banking like debiting or crediting. With the mark of the beast, the church will NOT be able to receive those moneys and even if it does, it cannot operate with them to buy or sell anything.
(4) What about church buildings – without the mark of the beast they will not be able to purchase any service – electricity, lights, internet, gas for church vans, insurance, special events, catering, food – no communion elements. Nothing at all. With no professional services available, a church building may last a few months, but will fall apart soon before the Tribulation is over… Just think about it
(5) Any other church related logistics or operations that depend on the purchase of gasoline and transportation. They way current church infrastructure in America is set up, how many would actually take the time to walk miles and miles to a church?
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams seems like Link Hudson is suggesting the Pope and the whole Catholic church to reside in houses or homes for a Sunday Eucharist meals
Billy Monroe Poff
Troy Day first off explain to me your reasoning for being dead set against the anti-Christ being Muslim.,.
Link Hudson
Not my suggestion. Do you think Peter was the first pope?
Philip Williams
Isn’t this pointing to the US Federal Government as the beast? The Pope doesn’t regulate US Protestant churches.
Gary Micheal Epping
There will be sheepfolds for protection, manna from above, and Christians trading with each other through barter. You can trade your squirrel for some vegetables at the next bozrah down the road, Troy.
Link Hudson
Is the reasoning that us going through the tribulation us scary so therefore it will not happen?
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping been thinking a LOT lately about the difference between wolf in sheep skin and a shepherd dog – ppl mix them cause they both have long teeth But neither you nor Link Hudson remind me of such skilled to lead through tribulation I’ve told Alan Smith that maybe Charles Page or Tom Steele but with the one being patristic and the other one judaistic not too sure if church will end up legalistic or even Laodecistics Joe Absher
Link Hudson
Troy Day if you live long enough maybe you can lead on the local level during the tribulation.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson I will live long enough and then eternally in heaven I would be more worried about yourself and Gary – the old wife tale that you believe in post-Trib but God will take you in the pre-Trib will not fly except fly away that is It is done according to your faith – you believe post Trib have it your way I hear McDonalds will be still serving postribbers
Link Hudson
Troy Day if you gave any scripture for pretrib we are still waiting
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson you done forgot them in 2 weeks?
Link Hudson
Troy Day you keep posting stuff that doesn’t support your position, eg Perry Stone vids that try to dpi. A scenario where I Thes. 3 could fit with pretrib. What is lackingis actual Biblical evidence while there is evidence to the contrary
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson naah I posted several very in depth exegesis of KEY passages you simply cant grasp Remember? Then you forget them in 2-3 weeks or so
Link Hudson
Troy Day you post links to long articles off site which try to spin passages where they could potentuslly fit with post trib. If you want me to read I want to see your words in a Facebook cornbox. Not a link to a book on Amazon.
Varnel Watson
Link Hudson I think you’ll do just finding it yourself this time
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day So, according to the gospel of Troy, there is a new requirement for salvation. In order to be saved and go to heaven to be with Jesus, one must not only believe in the Lord Jesus, but also believe in a pre-trib rapture! I believe in Jesus, and also believe what he said about the timing of the resurrection and rapture in MAT 24: ” Immediately after the tribulation of those days… he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”
Varnel Watson
I dont see yall making through Just saying
Varnel Watson
I have long asked this Daniel J Hesse Gary Micheal Epping
walmart is NOT taking online orders
is NOT delivering to home
is NOT doing curb pickup no more
and you can get only 2 of each like NOAH
yes – you can only get 2 eggs 🙂
How can a church that cannot survive coronavirus survive the Tribulation ? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/preventing-covid-19-in-faith-based-communities/
Varnel Watson
Chris Baudean tell Neil Steven Lawrence HOW you can survive CHURCH building empty Business shut down Michigan stopped all private gardening Then what? – caves and manna ?
Chris Baudean
Troy Day my God man you have no true faith in Jesus Christ, which is evidently exposed by your own mouth.
Varnel Watson
Chris Baudean oh HOLD ON NOW Why is it that I dont have faith WHEN John in Revelation is CLEAR?
in the words of JESUS himself
Tribulation no on has seen since the fall of the worlds
1/3 population dies
1 out of 3 is a major major number I argued this with Gary Micheal Epping and we got to some point BUT pls note there hasnt been plague LIKE Tribulation – so CHURCH will survive based on what? https://www.amazon.com/Tribulation-Survival-Manual-Millions-Disappeared/dp/1697686206
Chris Baudean
Troy Day The reason why I say you don’t have faith is that you don’t believe that God can do all that to the wicked and keep you perfectly safe at the same time while punishing the wicked.
Varnel Watson
Chris Baudean it dont depend on my belief GOD in the BIBLE said we will be gone That I believe and have faith for The person who dont have faith shall be LEFT BEHIND – pretty clear in the BIBLE if you are asking me
Chris Baudean
BTW what I said above is Bible from 2 peter 2
Varnel Watson
love me do some of them books https://www.amazon.com/Not-Left-Behind-Tribulation-Survival/dp/1518842593
Varnel Watson
BTW Chris Baudean the ones with faith we are going up in the Rapture the ones without faith are lEFT BEHIND 🙂
Anonymous
Link Hudson Neil Steven Lawrence Billy Monroe Poff Philip Williams
A small virus shut down most churches in the world and they are so crippled they can hardly open again HOW is such a weak church open during the Tribulation and save soul? No cant do
(1) for starters: ONLY the ones who take the mark of the Beast (whoever that may be) will be able to buy or sell. Anything! Food, gas, electricity, water – absolutely nothing.
(2) The pastors will NOT be able to receive salaries, insurance or anything included in their package. Remember, if the church cannot buy or sale, neither can the pastor receive a salary. And even if a salary is given, what would the pastor spend it on without the mark of the beast?
(3) Tithing system – those are most usually set up with a paper check or some sort of electronic banking like debiting or crediting. With the mark of the beast, the church will NOT be able to receive those moneys and even if it does, it cannot operate with them to buy or sell anything.
(4) What about church buildings – without the mark of the beast they will not be able to purchase any service – electricity, lights, internet, gas for church vans, insurance, special events, catering, food – no communion elements. Nothing at all. With no professional services available, a church building may last a few months, but will fall apart soon before the Tribulation is over… Just think about it
(5) Any other church related logistics or operations that depend on the purchase of gasoline and transportation. They way current church infrastructure in America is set up, how many would actually take the time to walk miles and miles to a church?
Anonymous
Troy Day on point 1 it should say only those who take the mark will be able to….. (Remove the not)
Anonymous
Troy Day You realize that there is absolutely no case here at all against the idea that the church can go through the tribulation.
“If the church goes through the tribulation, it will be really, really tough… and it will be …..tribulation….. so the church cannot go through the tribulation” is not a valid argument.
And a lot of this stuff is extrabiblical at best— the one-man professional pastorate, pastor’s salaries, the modern Pentecostal tithing system, special purpose church buildings… bank accounts. Where is any of this stuff taught in the New Testament or anywhere else in the Bible? If we lose the stuff that they didn’t have in the first century church if we go through the tribulation… is that an argument for a pretribulational rapture?
Anonymous
Billy Monroe Poff how do you mean on point 1? (Remove the not)
Anonymous
Troy Day you wrote “ 1)ONLY the ones who take the mark of the beast…. will not be able to buy or sell…” If they take the mark of the beast they WILL be able to buy or sell. Only those who don’t take it will NOT be able to..
Anonymous
Billy Monroe Poff oops TYPE corrected THANKs – what else?
Anonymous
Troy Day you’re all set.. 😁
Anonymous
Billy Monroe Poff but wait – there is more…
Anonymous
Link Hudson this is a GREAT case against the idea that the church can go through the tribulation. FOR Starts the antiChrist will take your job and since you dont have many other trades HOW will you feed your 6 – was it – children? Just think about it for a min like Billy Monroe Poff Neil Steven Lawrence and Oscar Valdez suggested EVEN Ricky Grimsley is hoping to go only the first half but NOT through the GREAT tribulation https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/2023-in-retrospect/
Anonymous
Troy Day The tribulation being tribulation is not a case against saints going through tribulation.
Anonymous
Troy Day Isn’t that sensationalism coming from extreme dispensationalism?
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez good question for Link Hudson a/the tribulation in history is NOT is NOT is not The GREAT tribulation of revelation Comparing oranges vs apples again It is like you are saying gay love is THE LOVE of God…
Anonymous
a/the tribulation in history is NOT is NOT is not The GREAT tribulation of revelation TerryandNita Wiles Something to think about…
Anonymous
RT Ron Culbreth After doing my devotion today, as is my custom to do each year on this day I read the Declaration of Independence. I found it says the same thing it said when it was penned 143 years ago. A part of the document says ” We hold these truths to be self- evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness”. We are assured in the document
Anonymous
Link Hudson Gary Micheal Epping posting this with sincere interest in your prepper plan on surviving Trib 50% of human kind will die Brett Dobbs too Kyle Williams do not believe that IF it is a choice between Link and Gary who will die and who will live? ThereS a man goin round takin names AND HE decides … and so on
so Gary @ one point was gonna hide in cave and wait for manna rain
Except in TX they got valleys no caves and no rain
Link just shared he got gardening knowledge which I would very much like to see how a family of 8 will survive by gardening. It may be a bit intrusive but it will take like 5min on the internet to see where Link lives and it will be on a bout an acre of land so what gardening on acre – not too sure
BUT sincerely asking on your plans to survive
My question was bid by a book by J.D. King on the world getting better
SURE the world will get better when JESUS comes back
But we do not see the world better during Trib
JD was asked to discuss – he posted self-promo ad instead
and a statement of refusal to discuss with ppl who dont agree with him
SURE – a typical NAR approach to eschatology
Except later in his busy day he posted on his own wall a refute of sort of such NAR non-Biblical approach. Oh well, it is a free country {for now Philip Williams }
Neil Steven Lawrence Michael Chauncey Junior Beasley Jerome Herrick Weymouth and Darnell Henson Jr. myself weS goin home in the preTrib rapture; leavin all behind some happy Troy Day on wings of love I’ll fly way – the TRUE Pentecostal way
Anonymous
Troy, did you read my posts from this morning? I wrote some of my viewpoints.
Anonymous
Troy, what I posted was not a self promo. I was a teaching post that I had previously written that summarized the views of the book.
Anonymous
J.D. King I did I did 6hrs ago
Wish you posted it here for discussion
OH well
Anonymous
J.D. King I actually went to the Link and need no further info 🙂
Anonymous
Troy, I did post here for discussion.
Anonymous
J.D. King not under your book OP but I will take it here for 50, Alex
Anonymous
Troy Day I’m not worried about prepping during the tribulation cause I’m not planning on being here. Yes I know that 29% of the church today’s has started believing in post tribulation rapture of the saints but I’m in the majority I’m gonna fly away.
Anonymous
Troy Day perhaps the great tribulation or details described in the book of Revelation have already fulfilled. Or at least some of those things have.
Anonymous
Troy Day My wife is more of a gardener, and I help sometimes. We aren’t growing on a whole acre. She grows a lot for the amount of land we are using, especially considering the soil was mostly sand when we got here.
‘Jesus is coming back soon’ doesn’t say when soon is. They believed that at the Azusa Street Revival, too, but it didn’t happen in their generation.
My wife has a ‘word’ about Christians needing to share and grow their own food, but I doubt in her mind it is directly related to the Great Tribulation. A lot of bad things could happen between now and the end of the age.
Grain could stay good for seven years back when Joseph was in Egypt. I would imagine wheat, corn, rice and various types of beans would store in 60-gallon food-grade pickle barrels. A friend of mine who used to be hard core pre-trib is now starting to figure out that it just might not go down that way, and he has been storing up food. He has animals to feed, so he can rotate out the storage and feed animals with a FIFO method. Nitrogen can also help preserve food. I have used barrels like that for rain barrels, so I probably have a few months of water if the water goes out. But I haven’t used barrels for food yet. We have food stored up. I’m thinking adding a little food-grade diotometious earth to rice and other foods to keep vermin out if I need to store more or store it longer.
But this isn’t tribulation-focused per se.
If I were setting up for seven years of tribulation, the real risk as far as safety is concerned is getting chased around. I suppose one could look for some place in the world with no property tax or try to find a state that lets you prepay for seven years. And then they could change the laws on you. Even if you could farm for seven years, that doesn’t prove the government will leave you alone.
But the argument that ‘The tribulation will be really bad, so believers won’t be here on earth then’ isn’t a logical argument either.
Anonymous
Link Hudson do you agree with Brett Dobbs THAT
the great tribulation or details described in the book of Revelation have already fulfilled ????
I Know I dont but Kyle Williams might as well
Anonymous
Troy Day the great tribulation has already happened, and John told you so if you have read Revelation Chapter 1.
Anonymous
Kyle Williams obviously I never read the revelation you and Link read
Anonymous
Troy Day Revelation 1:9 ESV
[9] I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
I think just beginning by actually reading it in any version would suffice. It’s not even buried nor does it require much exegetical skill.
What Tribulation was he talking about? The Tribulation that was experienced in the context of the 1st century. The Tribulation Jesus prophesied by Jesus in Matthew 24:21, which, given the context of Matthew 24 could only have been talking about seige of Jerusalem that concluded the Roman- Jewish war Late 67-70 AD.
Anonymous
Kyle Williams hahaha boy you learn every day – I am most certain Link Hudson sees it the same way as you do hahahaah 🙂
Anonymous
Troy Day was that supposed to be a response?
Anonymous
Link Hudson NOW you see from my comment to Kyle Williams WHY I argue for an authentic Irenaeus Dale M. Coulter pls explain to Kyle why according to Irenaeus Rev. cannot be written prior to 70 AD 🙂
In his book Against Heresies, Irenaeus devotes an entire chapter (5:30) to the number of the beast (Rev. 13:18).[23] Irenaeus originally wrote in Greek, but our existing manuscripts of Irenaeus only have later Latin translations. Fortunately, however, Eusebius (AD 260-340) preserved this section from Irenaeus in the original Greek (Eusebius, Church History 3.18.3; 5.8.6). In this section, Irenaeus begins by speaking about the identity of the Antichrist (Rev. 13:18), and then he addresses the book of Revelation as a whole:
McGiffert Translation (1890): “If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian” (Eusebius, Church History 3.18.3).[24]
Deferrari Translation (1953): “If it had been necessary to proclaim his name openly, it would have been spoken by him who saw the apocalypse. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, toward the end of the reign of Domitian” (Eusebius, Church History 3.18.3).[25]
Maier Translation (2011): “Had it been necessary to announce his name clearly at the present time, it would have been stated by the one who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago but nearly in our own time, at the end of Domitian’s reign” (Eusebius, Church History 3.18.3).[26]
Roberts Translation: “We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.30).[27]
Schaff Translation: “We will not, however, incur the risk of pronouncing positively as to the name of Antichrist; for if it were necessary that his name should be distinctly revealed in this present time, it would have been announced by him who beheld the apocalyptic vision. For that was seen no very long time since, but almost in our day, towards the end of Domitian’s reign” (Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5.30).[28]
Domitian was assassinated on September 18, AD 96. This means that the “end of the reign of Domitian” would date Revelation around AD 95. This is direct and explicit testimony to the dating of Revelation.
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2010680725983539&set=p.2010680725983539&type=3
Anonymous
Kyle Williams would you like the references too? I dont mind posting it Link Hudson Dale M. Coulter know I’ve done some comparative work on the 4-5 translations done from actual sources of Against Heresies by Irenaeus .. SO KYLE are you going to answer to the internal evidence I posted? Or do you have to consult some calvinator forums first to get fresh ammo?
Anonymous
Troy Day I would imagine some stuff in the first three chapters was fulfilled. I don’t have details but I suspect that woman Jezebels children (which I would assume means followers) were killed.
Anonymous
The true Church is removed prior to the 7 year tribulation.
The question is, how much longer can the USA survive?
It is a Gentile nation that cannot stand indefinitely.
God’s hand of Judgment is upon America.
May God have mercy.
Anonymous
Kyle Williams do you care to respond to the Internal Evidence from within the document itself. In addition to the external evidence from the church fathers, the book of Revelation has many internal indications that support the late date.[73]
ARGUMENT #1: The late date explains why John, Paul, and Timothy never mention one another together in Ephesus.
If the early date is true, then John would have been leading in Ephesus at the same time as Paul and Timothy. Why would Paul leave Timothy in charge of the Ephesian church if the apostle John was there? Moreover, at the end of 2 Timothy, Paul mentions 17 coworkers by name, but he never mentions John. We are not merely making an argument from silence. This is a conspicuous silence. Why wouldn’t Paul mention such a spiritual titan like John? Likewise, why wouldn’t Jesus mention Paul or Timothy when writing to the church of Ephesus? (Rev. 2:1-7) Witherington writes, “The lack of apostolic presence and, by contrast, the presence of powerful prophets (both John and those he calls false prophets) seem to reflect a time after the apostles had died off late in the first century A.D. (cf. the Didache).”[74]
ARGUMENT #2: The late date explains why Paul and Jesus give conflicting reports about false teachers in Ephesus.
Paul’s letters to Ephesus and Jesus’ letter to Ephesus give conflicting reports regarding false teachers. On the one hand, Paul writes about men who “teach strange doctrines” (1 Tim. 1:3) and the “doctrines of demons” (1 Tim. 4:1). Paul even mentions several false teachers by name: Hymenaeus, Alexander, and Philetus (1 Tim. 1:20; 2 Tim. 2:17). Yet, Jesus’ letter to Ephesus tells a different story. Instead of being riddled with false teachers, Jesus says, “You cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false… You hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate” (Rev. 2:2, 6). This is quite unlike the church of Pergamum who “have some who… hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans” (Rev. 2:15).
ARGUMENT #3: The late date explains how the church in Smyrna had time to grow before receiving a letter from Jesus.
Polycarp wrote a letter to the Philippians in AD 110. In it, he states that the Smyrnaeans weren’t believers when Paul wrote his letter to the Philippians in AD 60-61.
[You Philippians] are praised in the beginning of his Epistle. For concerning you he boasts in all the Churches who then alone had known the Lord, for we had not yet known him.[75]
Polycarp was the bishop of Smyrna. So, his use of the plural “we” refers to “the church at Smyrna,” which would “indicate that that church was not in existence at the time in question.”[76] Put simply, Polycarp is claiming that “when Paul wrote Philippians no Smyrneans had yet been evangelized.”[77]
Craig Blomberg[78] and Gordon Fee[79] date Philippians to AD 61. Therefore, Polycarp maintains that the church in Smyrna didn’t exist before this time. This, of course, carried difficulties for the early date advocate. It requires a church entering Smyrna and springing up all within a 4-5 year span. Acts 19:10 says that “All who lived in Asia heard the word of the Lord,” but this is hyperbolic language. This doesn’t mean that a church specifically existed in the city of Smyrna. Moreover, Paul never mentions a church existing in Smyrna in any of his letters.
ARGUMENT #4: The late date explains how the church in Laodicea had time to plummet spiritually by AD 65.
D.A. Carson, Douglas Moo,[80] and P.T. O’Brien[81] date Colossians to AD 60-61. Paul mentions a thriving church in Laodicea at this time (Col. 2:2; 4:13, 16). However, if Revelation was written in AD 65, then this church must have plummeted spiritually in just a few years. In fact, they had become so bad, that Christ threatened to vomit them out of his mouth! (Rev. 3:16) Of course, spiritual decline can occur quickly (Gal. 1:6), but which is more likely? A quick decline or a slower decline?
ARGUMENT #5: The late date explains Jesus’ words to the church in Laodicea in light of the great earthquake of AD 60.
The entire region around Laodicea suffered a massive earthquake in AD 60. In fact, the region suffered until at least AD 80,[82] and the “archaeological evidence at Laodicea points to a thirty-year rebuilding process.”[83]
And yet, Jesus told the Laodiceans that they are “wealthy” and “have need of nothing” (Rev. 3:16). If the early date is true, it would be quite cruel to tell a destroyed city that they are “wealthy” and “have need of nothing.” However, if the late date is true, this would make perfect sense. Tacitus mentions that the Laodiceans refused all aid from the Roman Empire after the earthquake.[84] They rebuilt their city all on their own, because they were “wealthy” and had “need of nothing.” Hemer writes, “There is good reason for seeing Rev. 3.17 against the background of the boasted afluence [sic] of Laodicea, notoriously exemplified in her refusal of Roman aid and her carrying through a great programme of reconstruction in a spirit of proud independence and ostentatious individual benefaction.”[85]