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Certainly one translation doesn’t have to line up with all the others. If they all do, then you might wonder if they are all following a translation tradition or copying from one another. So, I wouldn’t fault the NRSV for being different. However, I think it is bad for a different reason. θλιψις means pressure or constriction, and I think it is probably an onomatopoeia (sounds like what it means — say “thlipsis” a few times). So, that’s why a word like “tribulation” is better. I think “constriction” and try to come up with an English word that applies to people or a group of people, as “The Great Constriction” isn’t something we would say in English. But the word “ordeal” doesn’t do it justice. If I had to back-translate “ordeal,” maybe I would use πειρα or πειρασμος, or something like that, such as in 1 Pet 4:12 (πυρωσει προς πειρασμον), or Mark 14:38. If I said that cleaning up my messy house was a big ordeal, that would not imply any sort of external pressure, or that I was subjected to “great tribulation.” ¶ It is also not fair for you to translate by exegesis. The word tribulation may be the best word but the end doesn’t justify the means. You can’t say that it is so because this and another verse obviously refer to the same thing even if they don’t use the same word, and so on and so forth, and this thing and that, and the “two witnesses” of Revelation are the church, and that we know that various things are yet to happen, etc., etc. This is begging the question, circular reasoning, assuming the conclusion in the premise: “There will be a ‘Great Tribulation’ to come and that’s why it should be translated ‘Great Tribulation.'” Even if I agree with you that there will be such a time of “great tribulation” to come in the end times, I can’t agree with that line of reasoning to justify the translation.
Varnel Watson
maybe they used Greek scholars? Link Hudson
Philip Williams
just no way to access the articles you post from FB.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams just click the Link and read it There is also a nice video attached with the text http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/why-is-there-no-great-tribulation-in-the-nrsv/
Philip Williams
Troy Day Mounce is excellent here. I especially like his suggestion that the end time pressure from the culture. I might note that is also what the early church faced as John is writing Revelation.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams yes yes and yes Can we throw some Kingdom now into this pushing Pentecostalism into a-mil and removing any and all tribulation cause you see we will take over the government? Angel Ruiz Nelson Banuchi
Philip Williams
Troy Day no! no! No dominionism!
Come out from her that you be not partakers of her adulteries. The church can shine only when it separates from the world.
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day America as a nation, I believe, under the shadow of God’s judgment; Christian will not rule nor will they inaugurate the coming of the Messiah by dominating the world.
God will work through the Church to be a testimony of His glory; but He will not assign to the Church that which His own prerogative and His alone, that is, the initiating of a salvation and judgment that finally restores all Creation under the full dominion of Christ, the Son of God as He was elected by the Father through the Spirit for the complete manifestation of the Kingdom of Heaven.
Angel Ruiz
Philip Williams
Are talking about personal separation or ecclesiastical separation?
Philip Williams
Angel Ruiz
Ecclesiastical separation. Though individuals are valued, there is no libertarian individualism in the body of Christ. It is a body!
Angel Ruiz
Philip Williams Personal separation involves an individual’s commitment to a godly standard of behavior. Such a decision might be made in order to circumvent temptation (Romans 13:14), or simply to be consistent with a personal conviction (Romans 14:5).
Ecclesiastical separation involves the decisions of a church concerning its ties to other organizations, based on their theology or practices. In Jesus’ letter to the church of Pergamum, He warned against tolerating those who taught false doctrine (Revelation 2:14-15). The church was to be separate, breaking ties with heresy.
Philip Williams
Angel Ruiz I don’t think I can find organization in the NT.
Can you?
I do see a warning against those wishing to be kings and benefactors in the manner of the gentiles (world).
Organization, for better or worse, comes later with the developing catholic tradition.
Angel Ruiz
Philip Williams A modern example of ecclesiastical separation could be a denomination’s stance against ecumenical alliances which would unite the church with apostates.
Philip Williams
Angel Ruiz
Once, the Catholics and mainline Protestants weren’t so corrupt.
But organizations=worldly power and worldly power= corruption.
Because organizations aren’t going to heed the prophets. Never have. Never will.
So forget about the ecclesiastical powers. Jesus Christ will gather his church without them.
He has promised that our light will come. Let us trust him.
Angel Ruiz
Philip Williams
I agree with you….
So Biblical separation in its true context is personal separation.
Like i said before Personal separation involves an individual’s commitment to a godly standard of behavior. Good example is Daniel, he practiced personal separatism when he “resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine” (Daniel 1:8). His was a biblical separatism because his standard was based on his conviction of God’s revelation…
Philip Williams
Angel Ruiz
I misunderstood the meaning of your ‘personal separation.’
Yes, we are to be separated unto God. But God lives in his temple which is the body of Christ. Thus, we desire and seek fellowship of others separated unto God.
The things of this world should not overly concern us.
Varnel Watson
Angel Ruiz just back to the main OP – why would they remove the Trib if not to push NAR kingdom now? Philip Williams
Philip Williams
Has the NRSV any connection with the NAR?
Varnel Watson
that could be debated – I know for a fact many baptist institutions began using it as standard text after the NASB now moving to ESV which will be wrong but the connection
KGB introduces church revolution via Social Gospel in the 1960-70s to mess with the Catholic church in South America
The Catholic church is greatly affected – NAR develpoes into a social movement and in the 90s exported in the US by a single person perhaps used by the original authors
NAR then spreads as “pure” American teaching into other countries and penetrates the Charismatics
END RESULT – Pentecostals dont believe what they said they used to believe Paul L. King
Philip Williams
Troy Day I cut my scholarly teeth on liberal scholarship, that being the only thing available to me and, as you know, that meant the RSV Bible. I hardly knew what was going on among either the Charismatics or Evangelicals and certainly not among the Pentecostals. My knowledge of them was from my childhood. It was actually Harvey Cox who helped me understand what was happening within my childhood faith.
NAR has Latter Rain roots, Paul Cain was their initial leader. C Peter Wagner worked with John Wimber, then these guys. Peter was the only scholar among them and he was a sociologist. I see no particular connection with the NRSV.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams I think Angel Ruiz has brought a very very valid point into this conversation
Philip Williams
Troy Day yes
Steve Losee
The NRSV, like the RSV before it, is product of the Documentary Hypothesis heresy. A waste of time & money.
Varnel Watson
says who? didnt RSV came out of ASV?
Steve Losee
it claimed to, but what they did to Psalm 2, 22, Isaiah 7:14 & many other passages makes it unusable as far as I’m concerned.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams Steve Losee are yall aware of the KGB involvement into this current NAR push? Gutierrez’s book A Theology of Liberation designed by KGB and so on? http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/?s=KGB
Steve Losee
yup
Varnel Watson
Steve Losee how can we relate that to catholicism Philip Williams
Philip Williams
Well, Lenin was trained by the Jesuits. So that is fair.
Varnel Watson
and paid by Masons – enough said
Daniel J Hesse
R u sure?
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse Lenin – YES The 1917 communist revolution by Lenin. Trotsky, etc. were given 10 000 000 USD cash money in cases by the masons to organize the revolution and remove the king who persecuted masons, bolsheviks, etc Many took the money and just run away