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MAJOR PROBLEM with
pos-trib in Matthew 24
ONE is taken & ONE
LEFT BEHIND to WHAT?
Guest;
They are left behind to a the Lord returning to them in a second? Well, that makes some great theological sense now Link
Guest;
Those left behind during the flood ( in context of Matthew 24 Jesus was saying His return would be like the flood of Noah’s day) those left behind were left behind for judgment and destruction.
Luke 17
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed
The same day Jesus delivers the just, He destroys the wicked…AT HIS POST TRIB RETURN
Guest;
One taken in draft of military to defend Isreal
Guest;
So post-tribers will be split as well?
one taken – one left behind
for just a split second
What matter of theology is this?
Guest;
This article unpacks some of what is happening in Matthew 24. https://jdkinginsights.blogspot.com/2014/10/i-want-to-be-left-behind.html
Guest;
One is right with god and one is not. That’s easy till people like you try n turn it around
Guest;
I’m PAN-trib. I believe that if you live for God in the manner the Bible teaches you to…. it will all pan out in the end.
Guest;
O
I agree
Guest;
Well u will b jd
Guest;
You are saying 50% r saved you need to read my friend .Straight is the road and narrow the gate and few there be that find it.
Why did he say pray that your journey not be in winter or that you are with child so if it is the rapture what difference would that MAKE
Guest;
I also believe that if you spent the same amount of time trying to bring out theological arguments on FB witnessing, your purpose would be won. Great commission, not the great argument.
Guest;
Who said 50 percent. Very few will enter I to the kingdom of go no body said anything about 50 percent this is how u put word lies into the conversation. You a fals propht
Guest;
U on it Brandon. U right
Guest;
In His warning of swift judgment taking place in Jerusalem in forty years, Jesus likens things to the “days of Noah.” At that earlier era, the unbelieving masses were oblivious to the fact that a flood was coming. They continued to live godless lives, and disaster came crashing upon them suddenly.
As the flood water erupted, the wicked were “seized” in a watery judgment. However, Noah and his family were left behind. The unrighteous died, but those who remained were able to hold on to the goodness and love of God.
Guest;
Great point you make there. The appearing of Jesus will also happen at a time when people aren’t looking for Him. By the end of tribulation, everyone will be looking for something to happen
Guest;
One will be saved and the other one left behind won’t.
Guest;
There is a Major Problem with all dogma based on a yet future Great Tribulation. It is not in Scripture.
Guest;
At least you guys ain’t setting dates, or are you?
Guest;
it appears to be a MAJOR problem post-tribbers have stumbled upon and they just cant explain their theory with the Word Eventually they just turn to kingdom-now and become post-mils #there
Guest;
You make a very good point
Guest;
pos-tribber struggle to explain – their camp is now divided
Guest;
J.D. King, Re: I want to be left behind. Not sure why you would given we are told to watch and pray to be counted worthy to escape the
tribulation. Even so, if you plan to be in Jerusalem on that day, make sure to obey Jeaus word : In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
re: judgement taking place in Jerusalem in forty years. Forty years?
Guest;
I was left behind…
Guest;
You can not be left behind in a pretrib rapture that will not occur. You get to stay behind and help save the lost.
Guest;
You are assuming taken is in reference to the rapture. If the Lord’s actual return is what is predicted to be left on Earth as Noah was is a blessing not a curse.
Guest;
Dr Roy Hicks once proposed to me that it’s a 50% ratio stated. Very interesting thought.
Guest;
This is where theology comes into play. Some think it is the righteous will be taken. Others think it is unrighteous will be taken. Others, like me, understand, all will be taken, with our flesh left to rot. We all die, our spirits are taken, and our flesh is left. There is a chapter, I believe in Thessalonians which expounds on this topic.
Guest;
a VERY simple question that no one has answered yet – left behind for WHAT? to a split moment? – what is the point
Guest;
Corruption cannot inherit incorruption
Guest;
Their is more then.one rapture, pre-trib the dead in Christ, those that are ready, those left bring itherscslng in faith once their faith is tweaked, mud trib then last call post trub if you do.not make that one you won’t make it.
Guest;
Most on here will not agree with this, but it deserves consideration. https://jdkinginsights.blogspot.com/2017/11/why-great-tribulation-was-in-past.html
Guest;
No the GREAT Tribulation was in the past ONLY of EMPIRE churches that amalgamated the state and the church in one Since the Reformation we have dealt with this great problem and have determined that state and church should be separate Therefore it is significant that all of the above passages relate to the rapture and speak of the
Lord’s coming as something that could occur at any-moment, that it is imminent. These
passages could only be true if the New Testament is teaching an imminent return. This
is why believers are waiting for a person—Jesus Christ—not just an event or series of
events such as those related to the tribulation leading up to Christ’s second advent in
which He returns to the earth and remains for His millennial reign. In contrast, second
coming passages are often accompanied by events that must take place before the
return. This is never the case with rapture passages. Always, it is Christ Himself that
could come at any moment. Gerald Stanton offers this insight: “The posttribulational
view robs every generation of an imminent, and consequently of a comforting and
purifying hope. It argues that, because the rapture was not imminent in the first
century, it is not imminent in any century, and it cannot be imminent now. Antichrist
and the great Tribulation are ahead, and there is no basis for expecting Christ to come
before such clearly scheduled events.”
Guest;
Assuming the standard pretrib interpretation that the one raptured is correct, how is this an argument against post trib. That makes no sense. Theverse does not say that one shall be taken 7 years before Jesus comes back. Post tribbers believe in the rapture.
If you argue that interpretation with a historic post mil who does not believe in a rapture at all that makes more sense.
Guest;
Michael Postlethwait :
Rico Hero The idea about being left behind is based on a Partial Preterite Eschatology – the belief that Revelation was written in the 60’s under Nero and that the description of Tribulation in the Eschatological passages occurred during the reign of Nero and following.
Rico
Thanks Michael. Is this your belief?
Just a thought.
Preterist should say ” left alive” for “left behind” refers to missing the rapture.
Re: the belief that Revelation was written in the 60’s. The early church fathers disagree and the accepted date is 95 AD. How do Preterist justify such an early date for the writing of Revelation?
Guest;
“Preterist” has such a negative association for many on here. Some of that is misguided and unfair—from a purely theological point of view. The term simply affirms that prophecies of the Old Testament have been fulfilled. Everyone believes at least a few things were fulfilled. Technically every Christian is a partial preterist.
Guest;
J.D. King
Technically every Christian is a partial preterist.
Rico
Hard sell , my friend. I think its a hard sell to accept because partial Preterist hold to the following being already fulfilled
• The Tribulation
• The Antichrist
• The Abomination of Desolation
• Jesus’ Coming (Matthew 24; Revelation 19)
Guest;
Still NO answer to this major problem A verse that is rarely quoted by post-Tribbers because it makes no sense that anyone would be left behind to the same state of earth they will be raptured from and return to in a blink of on eye Same judgment on both good and bad – what’s biblically wrong with this picture here?
Guest;
I gave the answer. You just cant see it
Guest;
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Guest;
Church Fathers are Prebrib? TOTALLY WRONG! http://endtime-prophecy.com/?p=15
Guest;
Hello Gary Michael Epping
I had a look at the link to end time prophecy you provided to show that the early Church were post tribulation. From what was posted, it is hard to make the link that they really were post— they could be no tribulation or preterits. For example
snip
The Didache (possibly before A.D. 100)
The author of this work substituted “church” for “elect” where Jesus spoke of gathering together his elect after the Tribulation (Matt. 24:29-31Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); Mark 13:24-27Open in Logos Bible Software (if available)).
So let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom [chapter 9].
Remember, Lord, Thy Church, to deliver it from all evil and to make it perfect in Thy love, and gather it from the four winds, sanctified for Thy kingdom which Thou hast prepared for it [chapter 10].[1]. end snip.
Rico:
The fact that the author of this work substituted church for elect where Jesus spoke of gathering together His elect after the tribulation, most likely makes him Amil and a believer in Covenant –like the Catholics.
Consider , that immediately after the tribulation when He is seen in the clouds and seen on the mount of olives ( Zech 14:4) and has defeated Antichrist , He shall send His angels with a great sound of the trumpet , and they shall gather ( not rapture) his elect– the Jews as promised :
Deuteronomy 30:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Note: gather
Isaiah 11:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Guest;
U got mager problems. Any way.
Guest;
Biblical pre-Trib rapture offers a very Biblical solution – separation via the 7yr Tribulation Very Biblical – you see it in Mt Lk 1 Thes Rev and more While this verse splits the post-trib camp in 2
post-tribbers are not too sure whos taken and whos left behind and WHY both go through the same judgment of God
they also cant explain taken to WHAT? to a split second of immediate return on earth ??? – makes no sense
post-Tribbers simply have to admit their theory makes no Biblical sense
Guest;
2 Thess 2:1-4 would say that Pre-Trib is not the case.
Guest;
I can’t how much false teaching is in this group
Guest;
2 Thess 2:1-4 does not say that in any shape or form BUT nice diverting the topic from Mt 24 and the hard verse there
Guest;
No problems. U are
Guest;
Link Hudson:
Rico Hero interpreting the elect to be church not Israel doesn’t mean they rejected God’s plan for Israel. Paul refers the the coming of the Lord and oir garhering unto him in II Thessalonians 1:1. Compare the words for gather and gathering.
Rico:
Link Hudson, Are you a follower of Covenant Theology?
My understanding of Covenant is that followers are generally Young Earthers, Post- Tribulation, Amillennial, and believe that Israel was replaced by the church.
In this Covenant theology , interpreting (by spiritualizing ) the “elect” of Mt. 24 to mean the church does indeed reject the plan of God for Israel–to bring them back into the fold during the 70 th week of Daniel and gathering them back to their God given homeland as an eternal possession after the tribulation as promised:
Deuteronomy 30:4 King James Version (KJV)
4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the Lord thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee
Isaiah 11:11-12 King James Version (KJV)
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Re: gather and gathering
The church will be raptured and gathered in the air as stated in 1 thess 4:17; 2 Thess .2:1, but could not refer to the gathering after the tribulation because it is out of context to the above verses that speak of gathering the jews from the four corners of the earth. ( by sending the angels to do it–not by rapture)
compare four corners of the earth in the above verse–(Isa. 11:12 with Mt 24:31)
In your theology, what is Gods plan for Israel?
Guest;
II Thessalonians 1:1 does NOT in any way say what Link wants it to say. And it has been discussed enough before to serve as a red herring in this OP. This is specific about Mt 24 that post-trib theorists believe to speak of post-trib rapture. It does not. It actually makes NO logical sense if it applies to any other apocalyptic chronology except pre-Trib
Guest;
Troy Day, assuming the one at the mill who is taken is raptured the pre-trib and post-trib explanations are pretty similar. In one case, the individual is raptured to meet Jesus in the clouds while some bad stuff eventually ramps up until the raptured individual comes back with Jesus Who executes judgment on them that believe not. A post-trib scenario, the individual is raptured up to meet Jesus and returns with the procession with Jesus, Who executes judgment on them that believe not. There is no special pre-trib argument here.
The problem with the pretrib interpretation is if you actually read the chapter. Jesus had already said, ‘for then shall be great tribulation’ and ‘AFTER the tribulation of those days’– setting the time as post-tribulational.
Claiming what I am saying is not logical doesn’t change the facts. It doesn’t change what the passage says. Calling relavent passages red herrings does not do away with those passages. They are still relavent and they are still in the BIble.
Guest;
actually the the pre-trib and post-trib explanations are NOT similar at all Hence the question asked in OP Post-Trib does cannot answer the posted question because there is no logic of placing the church under God’s judgment which is intended for the world only
Guest;
It has been answered. You are just too blind to see
Varnel Watson
Yes Link Hudson the term post-Trib rapture is no where in the BIBLE Therefore, the doctrine is plain unBiblical
Link Hudson
Troy Day the issue is the doctrine being taught nit the term. Show us where the Bible actually teaches a rapture after the tribulation. In your mind does it rest solely on the idea that “I go to prepare a place for you” could only be fulfilled by a rapture that occrs before the tribulation. Where is the scripture to justify reading I and I Thessalonians, Revelation, Matthew 24 through pretrib lenses? Why?
Varnel Watson
this is a major problem for post-Tribbers
post-Trib is simply NOT in the BIBLE
Shows us where in the Bible it even anyone says the phrase post-Trib rapture? This is a false doctrine introduced in the 19c Pos-Trib rapture is simply unBiblical
Link Hudson
Troy Day no one says pretrib raptures in the Bible either. I don’t make such silly arguments against pretrib. The issie is the doctrine not being taught not the label.
In Matthew 24 the gathering and the ‘one taken and the other left’ follow ‘after the tribulation of those eays’. Post means after so your silly parody argument is not even true.
Varnel Watson
Sorry I cant post after church starts like you do I dont know how you stay on FB in church all the time
Link Hudson
Troy Day Our service starts later than yours does, apparently. I did not pos that during church. Why do you have your Facebook on during church. I took mine off my phone, btw. Mssenger eats up a lot of data.
Gary Micheal Epping
Skipping over verses does not qualify in saying “post-Trib rapture is no where in the BIBLE.”
Terry Wiles
The tribulation is an outpouring of Gods wrath on the earth. God will. To pour out His wrath on the Church that Jesus died for. See you on the other side.
Varnel Watson
God will pour out hot oil on all left behind post-Tribers
Daniel J Hesse
From their Family Bibles? No more need for Endust?
Varnel Watson
where in the BIBLE is even a single verse containing the phrase post-Trub rapture?
Hint: Nowhere!
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce brought some interesting points from a scholar he reds I would like to discuss them more here
Link Hudson
Since this is recorded after the verse that says “After thr tribulation of those days…” this is a major problem for pretrib.
RichardAnna Boyce
Matthew 24:29-31
“Immediately after the Tribulation” the earth will experience severe dread at widely seen cosmic disturbances when Jesus comes to judge and cleanse the earth (Luke 21:25-26). Foreboding signs in the skies will precede “the sign of the Son of Man” when He comes “on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.” A sign precedes the appearing of the Son of Man. The light of all heavenly bodies thus dimmed (Joel 2:31; 3:15), will increase the impact of the manifestation of the glory of Christ. “The powers of the heavens” that might compete with His display of power “will be shaken” (Rev 6:12-13). Thick, heavy darkness will bring extraordinary gloom to the inhabitants of the earth. In the now deeper blackness of space the Shekinah glory, which emanates from Christ, will appear at last (cf. Matt 2:2,9). This sign will be viewed with alarm as it swiftly approaches earth. The dreadful harvest will have begun (cf. 13:47-50; Rev 14:14-20).
He will descend as He had previously ascended in the sight of the disciples––visibly, bodily, and with clouds (Acts 1:10-11; cf. Matt 26:64 and Dan 7:13). In Scripture the presence of a cloud or clouds signifies the presence of God, the heavenly origin, destiny, and character of the messianic King, the manifestation of God’s glory, and on occasion the judgment of God (Ex 13:21-22; 16:10; 40:34-38; 2 Chron 5:13-14; Isa 19:1; Dan 7:13-14).
“All the tribes of the earth will mourn” in response to the visible power and glory of this unparalleled event (v 30; cf. Zech 12:10). To suggest that these words refer figuratively to a nonliteral “coming of Christ” to destroy Jerusalem in AD 70 does injustice to the context and to the ultimate victory of God in human history. The parting of the Red Sea as a climax of previous miracles was a literal, spectacular deliverance for Israel and a stupendous judgment on Egypt, their oppressors (Ex 14). When all Israel turns to Christ in the end times and is saved, could there be any less a demonstration of miraculous power on earth than that wielded by the King of kings and Lord of Lords (Rev 19:16)?
24:31. The harvest of the saved will begin with an exercise of royal authority. Jesus will dispatch “angels to gather the elect,” God’s chosen people, Israel (cf. Isa 27:12-13; 65:9). Israel is now scattered to “the four winds” (i.e., the remotest parts of the earth in all directions) because of her disobedience (Deut 28:64-67; Ezek 37:21-22; Luke 21:24), but then she will be placed in her land (Isa 11:11-16; Jer 16:14-15; Ezek 37:21-22,25; 39:27-28). As a trumpet was used in ancient Israel to call Israel to assemble (Num 10:1-10), so a trumpet will announce the gathering of Messiah’s people at His coming. It no doubt will celebrate a great military triumph and deliverance as well (cf. Zech 9:14-16). At this point Israel’s time of tribulation will be over because the nation will have been rescued (Matt 24:13). The use of the trumpet may indicate that Jesus’ coming will be heard as well as seen.
Since the Church will have already been caught up in the Rapture and gathered to Christ prior to the Tribulation (1 Thess 4:13-18; 5:9), this gathering does not apply to them. The last trumpet of the Church Age mentioned in 1 Cor 15:52 is not the same as the trumpet described here. This trumpet is blown at the end of the Tribulation.
In most of the following series of illustrations and parables, Jesus draws contrasts between those who are faithful, prepared, and watchful and those who are not. The outcome is reward or retribution. Expecting or not expecting Christ’s return makes a large difference in the lives of those illustrated. Just as unbelievers can suffer loss by not being prepared (Matt 24:39-41; 25:41,46), it is possible for believers to suffer loss, too, although not the kind suffered by unbelievers (24:43,51; 25:12,30). This loss is assumed by the admonitions directed toward believers to watch and be ready (24:42,44; 25:13). Since believers who are prompted to faithfulness by watching are rewarded, the implication is that believers who fail to watch and thus act like unbelievers will suffer loss of rewards.
Link Hudson
Show us the scripture that says the church will have already been raptured. Paul says they that are Christ shall be made alive at His coming.
Louise Cummings
RichardAnna Boyce that is talking about. About people that Died during the Tribulations. If the Lord doesn’t Rapture the Church. How can they come back to earth with the Lord , at the Of The Tribulations. Go to Jude. Even He seen it in a Vision. Why would the Lord say after the Resurrection. That the rest of the dead lived not until the thousand years were over. Then they will be raised to stand before the white throne of Judgement to be judges with the devil and his angels and all be cast in the lake of fire. If He doesn’t have a Resurrection , when are the dead in Christ rise first. And when, the ones living will be changed , in a moment in the Twinkling Of and and all of us rise to meet the Lord in the air. So shall we ever be with the Lord. Then I Revelation , in the last couple of books. I didn’t look it up.But it says the rest of the dead live not , until the Thousand years were over. Then they will be raised and be judged with the devil, and his angels and be cast in the lake of fire. But the Dead In Christ will get their rewards when the Rapture, Of The Church. And I wouldn’t say anything about people who says they are Christians and are not. And I wouldn’t try to judge them. But everything you see is not God. Noe I don’t know about the oil. And
Louise Cummings
Y
Louise Cummings
It stopped before I was finished. But the Bible talks about when at the last Judgment. That some will say Lord didn’t I do Miracles in Thy name and prophecy , in Your Name. And the Lord will say to then. Depart from Me , I knew you. The Lord tells us not to be deceived. That every one that says Lord Lord , for many shall come inMy Name , is not of God. Many shall come in His Name. But for us not to be deceived. But they will deceive many. He says it’s not every one who comes in My Name saying Lord , Lord , , and shall deceive many.
Gary Micheal Epping
I think Jesus perfectly answered the disciple’s question in MAT 24, “what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?’. . He does not mention in the entire chapter a quick earlier trip to rapture the church before the tribulation. Rather, he says, ‘after the tribulation’ he will return a single time to rapture and resurrect the saints.
RichardAnna Boyce
1 Corinthians 15:20-28 After looking at the fallacy of holding to a denial of the resurrection, Paul accentuates the reality of Christ’s resurrection and what that means for the believer. He first establishes that Christ’s resurrection has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. Firstfruits recalls the OT accounting of the first sheaf from the field brought to the temple as an expression of praise to Yahweh (Lev 23:10-14). It was meant to promise the full harvest yet to come. Similarly Christ’s resurrection anticipates and promises the believer’s resurrection which is yet to come. A whole new age has dawned because of Christ’s physical resurrection (Col 1:18; 1 Thess 4:15-16). If Jesus is raised from the dead, then the believer will be raised from the dead.
The first man—Adam—disobeyed God. By [this] man came death—both spiritual and physical death because of his transgression (Gen 3:17-19; Rom 5:12-21). In contrast by Man—Jesus Christ—also came the resurrection of the dead for all those who have believed in Him (cf. John 11:25-26). Because mankind is in Adam, all of mankind die (both physically and spiritually). However, in Christ all who have believed in Him for eternal salvation shall be made alive (both physically and spiritually). Paul in this passage is referring only to the believers in the Church and not the unbelieving dead.
In this passage Paul writes about three entities—the resurrected Christ, those who have fallen asleep in Christ (dead believers), and those who are still alive at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:18,20,23).
15:23-28. God’s specific plan includes each one in his own order. The word order, a military term, suggests the idea of rank. Christ the firstfruits was raised first. Second, those who are Christ’s at His coming will follow. The word coming (parousia) refers to His coming for those believers who are still alive (John 14:2-3). At the same coming, the Christians who have already died will be raised and actually will precede those who are still alive (1 Thess 4:13-18). Third, the coming of Christ will be followed by another period of time designated as the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. Once He overcomes every enemy of God the Father and mankind, He will hand this sovereign responsibility to the Father. This does not imply His inferiority, but it does mean a different responsibility. Until this time, the Father places everything under His Son who reigns as Lord over the universe (Ps 110:1; Dan 7:14; Col 1:15-17).
A period of time will occur between Christ’s coming for the Church and the time when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father. Christ will reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. Death will be last enemy (15:55). God the Father “has put all things under His feet (Ps 8:6).” The Father put all things under Christ as the last Adam, the perfect Man, with the only exception that God the Father Himself is not in subjection to Christ. Jesus’ work will ultimately glorify God the Father (John 17:4-5). The new creation will begin when God the Father may be all in all.
To risk one’s life for Jesus Christ is foolishness if the dead are not raised. Paul emphasizes this by turning to the reality of daily experiences to help the Corinthians understand the significance of the Resurrection. He points to their practice and his own daily lifestyle.
(from The Grace New Testament Commentary, Copyright © 2010 by Grace Evangelical Society. All rights reserved.)
Casius Leonidas
With regard to Tribulation events and the Rapture, I feel the timing of the Two Witnesses should be clearly studied.
They are major players in the first half of the Tribulation (3.5 years) and the entire world seems bemoaned by their existence.
Upon their deaths at the hands of AC, the world even throws a party!
The Two Witnesses are sent to fill the vacuum left behind by the Church.
Louise Cummings
That’s in the Middle Of The Tribulations. Elijah and I believe Enoch , because he never did die. That’s in the middle of the Tribulations. Anti The the answer to the other comment. The Bible talks about everything is finished , that even put it in there all things are finished. That includes the Thousand Year Reign , after the earth has passed away with a fever-ant heat and we have a new Heaven and New earth. It will be a purified earth. And the layers of the New Heaven and New earth. What all foundations will have the prettiest foundations of beautiful Jewels. Streets of pure Gold. That will be so beautiful and transparent , it will reflect Jesus all over Heaven and you see New Jerusalem , coming down from God out of Heaven. The Bible says when everything is finished. Is when the keys will be handed back over to the Father.
RichardAnna Boyce
Revelation 11:3-4
The “one thousand two hundred and sixty days” (three-and-a-half years) is in contrast to the “forty-two months” of v 2 as God’s “two witnesses” will prophesy during the first three and one-half years of Daniel’s seventieth week (the 42 months representing the last three and a half years). Immediately after Christ removes His church at the Rapture, not one saved person will be left on the earth. But this will change the very day it becomes true. Two men in Israel will be converted to Christ—apparently by direct, supernatural revelation (similar to Samuel in 1 Sam 3 or Saul of Tarsus in Acts 9). They will become the first prophets of Israel (outside those of the early church) since John the Baptist and will be given power to perform miracles that will torment (cf. Rev 11:10) earth’s inhabitants. Their clothing of sackcloth will match their message that the Day of Judgment spoken of by the OT prophets (the Day of the Lord; cf. Isa 13:9; 34:8; Zeph 1:14-18; Zech 14) has arrived. They will also share the good news of the Gospel so that the firstfruits of the Lamb—the 144,000—will be converted, and spread the Gospel to the ends of the earth (Matt 24:14). However, the primary role of the two witnesses is clear: they will testify about the Creator who has begun to pour out His wrath on rebellious mankind.
11:4. These two witnesses are compared to olive trees and lampstands (cf. Zech 4:11-14) because they, like witnessing believers today, will be God’s light in a dark world and dependent on the oil of God’s Spirit as they share the truth. They tell a secular and pluralistic society something it will not want to hear: that the God whose judgments they mediate is the Creator, the God of the earth.
Varnel Watson
its still a majro problem for some RichardAnna Boyce
RichardAnna Boyce
even more of a problem for them getting back to earth when they are Raptured.
Varnel Watson
Curtis Fenison brought some confusion saying Pre-tribers are like atheist Philip Williams he falls in the oneness calvinator category as it certainly seems keen
Curtis Fenison
Troy Day so you deleted my post and created d-hominems. don’t act like liar your a redeemed man of God act like it.
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce but what you are missing is that they are NOT going to heaven I was surprise to hear this from Link Hudson when he asked if the church is going to heaven – well of course NO one will be going to heaven without faith in the pre-Trib rapture that takes you to heaven To all the atheists like Curtis Fenison who dont believe in going to heaven I say – stay here and get rapture ready
Link Hudson
I have faith in the Lord Jesus and I belie e in the resurrection of the body.
In our acutal conversation Troy Day I asked you where the Bible says Christians will go to heaven. I am still waiting.
Gary Micheal Epping
Where does say in the bible, “NO one will be going to heaven without faith in the pre-Trib rapture that takes you to heaven.” I thought we got to heaven by believing in Jesus as our Lord and Savior.
RichardAnna Boyce
are we going to go down a side track over whether heaven will be on earth or up there?
Curtis Fenison
When scripture is clear it is incumbent upon honest teachers to not take less clear scripture and twist them to refute clear scripture.
The standard for the rapture is clear.
1. After tribulation. Matt 24:29-31
Pre-trib teachers attempt to refute this by defining elect as not the church. Since this is a debatable definition it cannot overrule the 1st rule of interpretation, clear scripture.
2. Apostle Paul rebukes the idea of Pre-trib in 2 Thess 2
Saying the great apostasy and reign of antichrist comes before our gathering together unto him.
Curtis Fenison
Concerning the last trumpet being the rapture and the great trumpet being a separate event 7 years later.
A study of Leviticus refutes this.
Apostle Paul understood what last trumpet in 1 Cor 15:61-52 is.
On the day of atonement, Yom Kippur st the end of all the sacrifices in Leviticus this day of the Lord was closed with the last trumpet. This same last Trumpet every fifty years is also defined in Leviticus as the great trumpet. The trumpet of jubilee.
I know very few eschatology. teachings know or teach this. As well as teaching the deference between the Passover sacrifice and the sacrifices on Yom Kippur
It’s a important study.
Philip Williams
I don’t see the problem, whether the ones taken are destroyed or saved. The point here is folks are busy as in the days of Noah and his Coming catches them by surprise.
RichardAnna Boyce
2 Thessalonians 2:1-5. Paul now moves to a personal appeal (we ask [exhort] you) concerning the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him.
The Thessalonian church had a major eschatological misconception. They were being shaken in mind or troubled. False teachers had been saying that the day of Christ had come. The reading, “the day of the Lord,” in the Critical Text refers to the Tribulation. However, the Majority Text reading, “the day of Christ,” which is preferred, always refers to the Judgment Seat of Christ (B¢ma) (cf. Phil 2:16). Similar expressions in Paul are “the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil 1:6,10) and “the day of the Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 1:8).
If the day of Christ had already occurred, the believers in Thessalonica had missed the Rapture and the B¢ma. Thus they would think that they were in the Tribulation and that terrible days were just around the corner.
It is reasonable for unbelievers to fear the Tribulation. But it is not reasonable for believers, especially those who have been taught by the Apostle Paul.
2:3-5. Paul reminds them of things he told them before (v 5). He told them that two things would occur before the Day of Christ: the falling away, and the Man of Sin is revealed…who exalts himself…as God in the temple.
If Paul is indeed speaking about the Judgment Seat of Christ here, then he is saying that it will not occur until after the midpoint of the Tribulation, for that is when the abomination of desolation alluded to in v 4 will occur.
The expression the falling away or the apostasy (h¢ apostasia) need not mean that once apostasy occurs in the Church Age, the day of Christ is here. Admittedly the falling away is a vague expression. Since it is the apostasy, it might refer specifically to the abomination of desolation. If so, then the many false teachings of this age merely foreshadow the ultimate apostasy to come.
When Paul wrote, the temple still stood. However, in AD 70, the temple was destroyed and has not yet been rebuilt. The temple must be rebuilt either before the Tribulation starts, or during the first days of the Tribulation. The Man of Sin will not exalt himself as God in the temple until it is restored in Jerusalem.
The Man of Sin, like Judas, is called the son of perdition. He will be the political ruler, whom John calls “the beast,” whose work is supported by a religious leader known as “the false prophet” (who is the Antichrist).