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Melvin Harter | PentecostalTheology.com
This August, it will be 30 years since the CoG changed its Practical Teachings, teachings that were part of the church basically since its inception. There is now a generation that knows nothing of the pre-1986 CoG. Therefore, I think it is best not to speak negative of today’s CoG. However, when things did change nearly 30 years ago, the CoG Minutes Book continued to state in two separate places, “The wearing of jewelry shall be made a test of membership.” So the question could be asked, “Did this particular statement nullify numerous CoG members that immediately wore their jewelry during that afternoon General Assembly session?” I had brought that to the attention of Dr. Ray H. Hughes at that time. Well, it really does not matter today does it?
Timothy Carter
Really, what changes occurred?
Have these changes hurt COG?
Have these changes helped COG?
Let’s look at every change individually and its effect on Church of God.
Jim Price
In our church an older lady wore some expensive jewelry ( someone told me it had a value of over 30K ) her husband was a top executive at a local company and she seemed to have been caught in a dilemma. To please and honor her husband or to please her church. Another lady in a COG near us drives a Mercedes convertible, wears $ 300 boots but also goes on and supports COG missions. As the song says ” life gets complicated after you turn 18″
Charles Page
Back then if I saw a lady dressed plain with hair in a bun, no make up and very modestly dressed I would think “Holiness woman” and sometime would ask her and usually with pride she held her chin up and said “Yes”
Today when I see that I think “oneness, Jesus only, independent baptist or maybe free holiness” I don’t approach them now cause I already know they are not CoG.
You have to have discernment of spirits today to know who is holiness. I am not that spiritual.
Charles Page
Do I look holy?
Charles Page
I was drafted in 1966, sent to Fort Polk, La and after several weeks we earned overnight passes on the weekend. Most went to Lake Charles for some fun. I went with them – they went clubbing and I went searching for a CoG. I found one and attended sat thru the whole service without anyone speaking to me at all (most churches didn’t want servicemen)
The women were decked out in jewelry and makeup, 1966! The sign said Church of God but when leaving I discovered it was Anderson Church of God. I had no idea what Anderson CoG was.
Needless at a critical point in my life (I mean critical) I was now devastated!
Almost a year later I met Robert R Seyda in Germany. I was back on track!
Robert R Seyda
I was blessed to be chosen byGod to be part of Charles’ life. I can say one thing, I don’t remember meeting anyone more enthusiastic and on fire for God than Charles.
Charles Page
Dachau Army chapel!!!
Timothy Carter
The Bible does not tell us that makeup jewelry or particular haircuts will make us more holy.
1 Timothy 2:9-10 tells us, “I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.” Paul did not forbid women from wearing jewelry, makeup, or braided hair—rather he tells women to not let their outward appearance become more important than their inner beauty.
Peter reminds us of this spiritual fact: “Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God’s sight” (1 Peter 3:3-5). There is nothing wrong with wearing jewelry, makeup, or braided hair as long as it is done in a modest manner. A woman should not be so focused on her outward appearance that she neglects her inner spiritual life. The Bible focuses on the heart. If a woman is spending too much time and money on her appearance, the problem is that the woman’s priorities are wrong. Expensive jewelry and clothing are the results of the problem, not the problem itself.
Melvin Harter
Post it in KJV because it is the closest to the original text.
Charles Page
if this next assembly decides to allow the members to smoke weed will there already be members high on weed before the assembly is over?
Charles Page
AS I recall since In was away in Europe during the 86 GA that the teaching was going to say moderate becoming attire instead of the line item rules. I thought that was good, initially, but how do you enforce moderation for membership. That idea failed!
Melvin Harter
Sad to say that it seems churches never learn. It is always on their 100th anniversary that church denominations change what they stood for and return to the very thing that they came out of. Read your Church History and you will discover what I said to be the truth. Look at the Methodist Church and all the others. Church History also tells us that not one time has God ever revived a church denomination once they make their change. See if you can find one. I can tell you that you won’t. What happens? God just starts new churches. That is why we have so many different denominations.
Charles Page
I have found that every 40, or so, years changes are made. SBC Baptist Faith and Message, 1925, 1963, 2000 each was a major shift.
Charles Page
Church of God 1906, 1922, 1948, 1986, (2002 Prophet Conference at Westmore) due for a drastic change now…
Charles Page
Melvin Harter, your OP said it was 30 years ago – by my observation a big change is coming. What do you think it is?
Melvin Harter
Timothy Carter, you are a CoG pastor and educator. I encourage you to read a booklet written by the CoG Executive Council in the early to middle 1980s entitled, “Worldly Dress and Adornment.” It will answer many of the questions that you asked. As you will notice, we are not speaking of a document written in the 1920s, 1940s or even the 1960s. It was a document written just a few years before the replacement of the Practical Teachings. Also, as a CoG preacher, why don’t you read the CoG Teachings from the older CoG Minutes Book (pre-1986)? There were scriptural references for each teaching, including the wearing of jewelry, etc. See what the CoG preached for some 100 years. Perhaps at that point you will discover what made the CoG great.
Charles Page
I remember that booklet! Surely PTS has that in the library racks!!!
At least stored away in vaults for future references.
Melvin Harter
I thought the 1986 GA was terrible. If you spoke against the change, your mic was turned off. I recall many a minister saying, “In the name of Jesussss” as though commanding the mic to remain on, only to see these fellow brethren fall upon their knees, crying out to God. No one teaching could be discussed. It was ALL or NOTHING. Of course the ALLs won out. Over 1/3 of the Ordained Ministers literally got up from their seats and walked out of the auditorium. Raymond Crowley pounded his gavel on the podium, stating that he was the GO of the entire CoG and not just a few. Charles Page , you would have had a heyday if you had only been there. This all occurred during the morning session. When the afternoon session started, I never seen so many Jezebels in all my life. The majority of the people were wearing jewelry. Women wore ear rings, necklaces, and rings. Men wore good size rings on their fingers. During the vote, the holiness people thought Dr. Ray H. Hughes, Sr was their champion. However, during the voting, Bro Hughes was standing on the stage, near its side, shaking hands and not voting or speaking up for the holiness people. Of course the holiness preachers felt betrayed. My personal thought at the time was, “How did all these people purchased all that jewelry between the time 11:30 and 2 pm?” Of course I came to the conclusion that they didn’t go out immediately and buy it. They had already purchased it prior to their coming to the GA.
Gladys Evelyn Sanders Hart
Bro. Harter tell it like it is….
Brody Pope
You think nakedness and flesh hanging out is bad at the beach, just go to a CoG campmeeting now a days and you’ll see pretty much the same thing. And its mostly my generation… I’m not really a clothesline preacher, but I do think modesty and respect should play a role in the life of a true Christian.
Pat Fretwell
Brody Pope, quit bashing COG! Our campmeeting is no such thing! Name your state! Maybe that’s the problem. Texas is BIG! None here!
Melvin Harter
I am addressing the historical aspect of the CoG; nothing more and nothing less. I would trust that I am not misunderstood in my posts. The CoG (Cleveland, TN) denomination is what it is. Scream all you want, it doesn’t really matter because what is done is done. If anyone does not like the CoG, then get out. I don’t believe it proper to get on a CoG page and speak improperly about them. I am sure God is still using them for His glory.
Varnel Watson
Melvin Harter Charles Page know this well
Davidking Manelli
Wow
Varnel Watson
Charles Page what happened?
RichardAnna Boyce
i thought calvinists believed in the elect; and reformers/ most pentecostals believe in perseverance of the saints. It seems only Free Grace Pentecostals believe in eternal security.
Nelson Banuchi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseverance_of_the_saints
RichardAnna Boyce
ETERNAL SECURITY OF THE SAINTS
Arminians warn we can lose salvation, and Hebrew warnings are written to believers. Puritans warn we were never saved in the first place.
Calvin/Reformists believe in a perseverance of fruit bearing as well as perseverance of faith.
Neonomians, MacArthur, Piper believe salvation is faith plus obedient fruitful works.
Calvinist Experimental Predestinarian believe heaven is an inheritance not a gift,
so unbelieving professors of faith can lose their inheritance; but EP never know if they are one of the elect until they meet God (when it’s too late).
Arminian is slightly closer to Scripture than Calvinism,
but Partners Free Grace model is closest.
Partners Free Grace agree to Calvinists eternal security of the Christian,
and also Arminian warnings in New Testament apply to Christians.
Partners will reign in eternity with Christ, but are in danger of severe discipline by losing reward of reigning with Christ, while still having secure salvation.
Nelson Banuchi
RichardAnna Boyce some Arminians believe you cannot forfeit salvation, that it cannot be lost…
RichardAnna Boyce
agreed as we have to use general labels here
Charles Page
Troy Day they can lose their sanctification
Philip Williams
John Wesley on Calvinism, Once Saved Always Saved, and Conditional Security
“Calvinists, who deny that salvation can ever be lost, reason on the subject in a marvelous way. They tell us, that no virgin’s lamp can go out; no promising harvest be choked with thorns; no branch in Christ can ever be cut off from unfruitfulness; no pardon can ever be forfeited, and no name blotted out of God’s book! They insist that no salt can ever lose its savor; nobody can ever “receive the grace of God in vain”; “bury his talents”; “neglect such great salvation”; trifle away “a day of grace”; “look back” after putting his hand to the gospel plow. Nobody can “grieve the Spirit” till He is “quenched,” and strives no more, nor “deny the Lord that bought them”; nor “bring upon themselves swift destruction.” Nobody, or body of believers, can ever get so lukewarm that Jesus will spew them out of His mouth. They use reams of paper to argue that if one ever got lost he was never found. John 17:12; that if one falls, he never stood. Rom. 11:16-22 and Heb. 6:4-6; if one was ever “cast forth,” he was never in, and “if one ever withered,” he was never green. John 15:1-6; and that “if any man draws back,” it proves that he never had anything to draw back from. Heb. 10:38,39; that if one ever “falls away into spiritual darkness,” he was never enlightened. Heb 6:4-6; that if you “again get entangled in the pollutions of the world,” it shows that you never escaped. 2 Pet 2:20; that if you “put salvation away” you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there!! In short they say: If you get it, you can’t lose it; and if you lose it you never had it. May God save us from accepting a doctrine, that must be defended by such fallacious reasoning!”
~ John Wesley
Varnel Watson
relevance to OP pls
Philip Williams
Who brought up the matter of entire sanctification not getting lost? Wasn’t that you?
RichardAnna Boyce
John Wesley could not rightly divide justification from sanctification; as all he quoted referred to sanctification; but Once Saved Always Saved, and Eternal Security refers to justification.
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce a person who believed and confesses Christ, experiencing his Holy Spirit. Then is enticed away and hardens his heart against his experience of salvation. To promote himself, he attacks the faith and encourages others to do the same. This has been the case of some that I know. Are those rebels going to Heaven or Hell?
RichardAnna Boyce
Philip Williams, God promises he goes to Heaven, the moment he believes in Jesus to receive eternal life. My God can’t lie.
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce so God lied to us in the book of Hebrews?
RichardAnna Boyce
Philip Williams, verse please
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce
“It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.”
Hebrews 6:4-8
RichardAnna Boyce
Heb :4-8 clearly talks about Rewards Theology not loss of salvation. The Bible speaks with certainty about the possession of a new life based solely upon faith in Christ as Savior. John 3:1-16; 5:24; 10:28; 20:31
The Bible refers to this life as “eternal” which means forever and implies no interruption. John 10:28; 11:25-26
Since salvation by grace essentially means that it is a gift, then it is an unconditional gift which does not depend on a person’s works, conduct, or condition after salvation. Rom. 3:24; 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9
The Bible teaches that God’s predestining purpose and initial justification result in eventual glorification without exception for every believer. Rom. 8:29-30; Eph. 1:4-5
The Bible presents eternal salvation as a legal and binding relationship with God that cannot be separated by anyone (including ourselves) or anything. Rom. 8:1, 31-39
The Bible presents eternal salvation as an irrevocable filial relationship to the Father by adoption which results in eternal blessings. John 17:3; Rom. 8:15-17; Gal. 3:26
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit, Who guarantees our glorification. 2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13-14; 4:30
We are kept secure by the power of both the Father and the Son. John 10:28-30; 17:9-12; Jude 24
Since all of our sins (past, present, future) are forgiven by Jesus Christ and His eternally sufficient sacrifice, there is no sin that can cause us to lose our relationship to Him. Col. 2:13-14; Heb. 10:12-14
The intercessory prayers of Jesus Christ and His advocacy when we sin guarantee that our salvation will be completed eternally. John 17:9-12, 24; Heb. 7:25; 1 John 2:1
The Bible speaks of salvation in the passive voice, which indicates that the causality is not with us, but with God; therefore it is based upon His work not ours. Eph. 2:5, 8; 2 Thes. 2:10; 1 Tim. 2:4
The Bible demonstrates by example (Abraham, David, Israel) and by precept that God is faithful to His eternal promises even when we are not. Ps. 89:30-37; Rom. 3:3-4; 4:16; 2 Tim. 2:13
Philip Williams
RichardAnna Boyce I’m finished responding to your Scripture twisting. Troy Day, If this is what you allow on this forum, I’m not sure that I belong here. I am very busy.
Charles Page
a virgin’s lamp can go out and it happens often?
Varnel Watson
as well as you should hijacking the OP
Charles Page
Troy Day agree, I should be however i am using restraint!