Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
In our culture, it’s become the proverbial fifth wheel of holidays. Really, we don’t even celebrate it anymore. It used to be that we would pause for much of the day—to feast, spend time with our families, and, yes, to watch football … but, most importantly, to worship and give thanks. But sadly, those days […]
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Varnel Watson
nyeh I say unto thee
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Acts 15 The Jerusalem council says “As for keeping the Law of Moses, we have no command”. Paul said in both Romans and Colossians ” By the deeds of the law and the works of the flesh shall no man be justified”. Most ignored scriptures in the New Testament. Next to the “No man knoweth the day or hour” text.
Varnel Watson
By the deeds of the law and the works of the flesh shall no man be justified
Robert Erwine
No . Matter of fact my fellow jews don’t even follow it .
Scotty Searan
There are three sections to the Law.
Sacrificial Law
Ceremonial Law
Moral Laws
I believe when Jesus died He was the Ultimate Final sacrifice for sin
And that done away with the Sacrificial laws.
When the VEIL was rent into in the Temple the ceremonial law was done away with. Everyone has the opportunity to become a Temple of God through accepting Jesus Christ and his cleansing atoning blood of Salvation by Repenting of your sins, confessing your sins, asking forgiveness for yours and believing the Lord Jesus Christ
The moral law was not destroyed
But the differnce is you dont keep the moral law to earn salvation, but you keep the moral law because you love Jesus and you do not want sin in your life.
The moral law was carried over into the New Testament in such places as Romans chapter 1 & 12 as well 1 Corinthians 5 , Galatians chapter 5, Ephesians chaptet 5.
Rick Carlton
1 Corinthians 7:19
Scotty Searan
Rick Carlton
Circumcision was a ceremonial part of the law, it was not a moral law.
Paul does speak of circumsoon of the heart.
Verse 17 tirs in Good.
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Gal. Forbids circumcision…unless you keep the Law of Moses you cannot be saved Paul say he wished those who want you to be circumcised to “go circumcise themselves!!!” Paul called circumcision in the church age “Another Gospel”!
James says be ye doers of the word. And not hearers only…And the Apostles in Jerusalem (Acts 15) said “of keeping the Law of Moses we give no commands,” So obey the commands in the Gospels and in the letters are the word we are to keep and obey.
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles Alan Smith Tom Steele should all Pentecostal preachers Circumcise
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Well I ain’t going circumcise nobody!!!
Scotty Searan
Was not the moral Law carried over into the grace dispensation.
Circumcision is ceremonial
Varnel Watson
IDK I am not a dispensationalist
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
N.T. gives us commands to flee fornication and to love one another. No commands are called laws in the letters.
Scotty Searan
Are we being technical in the NT to say, because it doesn’t say command that it is not a law. I am not saying the OT Mosaic law.
Are not these commands in Romans 12, Colossians 3:9-14, Ephesians 4:21-32, and
2 Corinthians 7:1 just to name a few.
I believe people can understand it doesn’t have to say “I Command you” to be a commandment
You tell a child “Pick up your toys” You don’t tell them: “I Command you to pick up ypur toys” to get them to do it.
A child understands and this is where we are to be as a child in obedience to Gods word.
Robert Erwine
did God really say cut off part of your penis ? .. come on…
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
A cutting of the foreskin…need I say more?
Check out google for facts.
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Circumcision
Male circumcision is the surgical removal of the foreskin (prepuce) from the human penis. In a typical procedure, the foreskin is opened and then separated from the glans after inspection. The circumcision device (if used) is placed, and then the foreskin is removed. Topical or locally injected anesthesia is occasionally used to reduce pain and physiologic stress
Robert Erwine
so it is genital mutilation
Michelke
Ever hear a Rabi say” oops”?
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Required as a sign of faith of Jehovah…In WW 2 the nazis hunting down Jews would have them drop their pants and they would know if they were Jews or not.
Robert Erwine
it was scarification not removal of the whole foreskin
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
King James Bible
Ex 4:25
Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
In the twentieth century, Many were circumcised. Jews and non-Jews… All the men in my family were circumcised.
Robert Erwine
willingly ?
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Willingly! We were infants, our parents made the choice.
Robert Erwine
that doesn’t sound right ……
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
It was expanded to me that doctors of the 20th century believe that circumcision was good for sanitary reasons, and it was of popular opinion.
Robert Erwine
this has proven this to be junk science
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
No to late now to change millions of men back to “As they were!!!”
Tom Steele
“Behold, days are coming”
—it is a declaration of ADONAI—
“when I will make a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah—
not like the covenant
I made with their fathers
in the day I took them by the hand
to bring them out of the land of Egypt.
For they broke My covenant,
though I was a husband to them.”
it is a declaration of ADONAI.
“But this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days”
—it is a declaration of ADONAI—
“I will put My Torah within them.
Yes, I will write it on their heart.
I will be their God
and they will be My people.
~Jeremiah 31:30-32 (TLV)
“Behold, days are coming,
says Adonai,
when I will inaugurate a new covenant
with the house of Israel
and with the house of Judah.
It will not be like the covenant
I made with their fathers
on the day when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of the land of Egypt.
For they did not remain in My covenant,
and I did not care for them, says Adonai.
For this is the covenant that I will make
with the house of Israel
after those days, says Adonai.
I will put My Torah into their mind,
and upon their hearts I will write it.
And I will be their God,
and they shall be My people.
~Hebrews 8:8-10 (TLV)
Let’s do a little word study here.
The Hebrew word used in Jeremiah for “new” is Strong’s 2319, “chadash”. It is defined in Strong’s as: from 2318, new—fresh, new thing. So, since the word comes from 2318, let’s look at that. It too is the Hebrew word “chadash”, however there is an extra accent marking placed on 2319 which lends to the difference. 2318 is defined: to be new, to rebuild—renew, repair.
The Greek word used in Hebrews 8 is “kainos”. This is Strong’s 2537 and it means: new, especially in freshness. Another resource called HELPS Word-Studies defines this word as meaning: new in quality, fresh. So, the idea here too is that, in harmony with Jeremiah from where the writer of Hebrews is taking this from, the Greek agrees that “new” could be better understood and “renewed” or “refreshed”.
Kainos is used in Mark 16:17 to refer to the “new tongues” that “new covenant” Believers will speak in. This should be of particular interest to proponents of “Pentecostal Theology”. Vine’s Expository Dictionary notes that “These languages, however, were ‘new’ and ‘different,’ not in the sense that they had never been heard before, or that they were new to the hearers, for it is plain from Acts 2:8 that this is not the case; they were new languages to the speakers, different from those in which they were accustomed to speak.”
2357 is also the word used in 2 Corinthians 5:17 where it is stated that we are made a “new” creation in Messiah Yeshua. Now, when you receive Christ into your life, does your physical body die and you regenerate in a literal “new” physical body? Of course not! You keep the SAME physical body, but you are made “new” in Messiah Yeshua.
So, putting this all in context, and reading the rest of the passages from Jeremiah and Hebrews, it says that God will put His Torah in the mind and write His Torah on the heart of the “new covenant” Believer. This is not a “new” or “different” Torah. It’s the SAME TORAH. It is renewed, refreshed, rebuilt, repaired, but it is not a different Torah. Just like the person speaking in “new tongues” speaks in a language that is not new and just like the “new creation in Messiah” does not receive a new physical body, the Torah is not a different Torah, it’s the SAME TORAH.
So, yes, the “Old Testament, Mosaic Laws”, as many people wrapped up in Replacement Theology often label it, is absolutely for the Believer today. The only defining Scriptures of what the NEW COVENANT actually is ride on this fact. Otherwise, there must be some “other” new covenant in the Bible that I am not aware of. Can you show me this “other new covenant” where the Torah is made obsolete instead of being written on the heart and put in the mind of the “new covenant Believer”?
Varnel Watson
naah
Varnel Watson
Alan Smith
Joe Absher
Proverbs 6:23 KJV — For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
Alan Smith
Following
Varnel Watson
the law?
Alan Smith
good one
Robert Erwine
Nope
Nora Neel-Toney
I disagree. I know the OT is under law and the NT is under grace. However the old lines up with the new and what is to come
Michelle
Csnt do Duet: 21, unruly kids, The city won’t stone them abd ya can’t shoot them either
Bill Woods
When you are GOD – you don’t need a “Plan B”
David Levandusky
Depends what you mean by Law. All 613 laws? Or do you mean certain laws. Or do you mean the Ten Commandments? Jesus said in the sermon on the Mt – I did not come to destroy the Law but to fulfill it. And look how he interpreted it.
Ârsiem Achep
“Love God with all your heart, with all your soul and with all your strength” and “Love your neighbor as you love yourself” on these hangs all the Laws and Prophets. Is it heard to understand this Jesus Answered? Very simple but it takes whole life to keep it.
Ray E Horton
Of course not. We are now in the New Covenant. The law was for the purpose of driving people to God through Jesus to come, and serves that same purpose today. Now, under grace, we can live far better lives accidentily than we ever could trying to obey the law on purpose. Our motivation now is love, not fear.
Joe Absher
Pastor do you mean actually and not accidentally. People don’t usually obey God on accident.
Ray E Horton
Joe Absher I used “accidently,,” as a purposeful exaggeration to reenforce the point. “Actually” would appreciate also.
Joe Absher
Well since you put like that I’d have to say it’s a careless exaggeration.
Ray E Horton
Actually, I remember Andrew Wommack saying that, so I just Googled it. Here’s the quote: “When you truly get a hold of the grace of God, I guarantee you, it sets you free from sin, not free to sin. You’ll wind up living holier accidentally than you ever have on purpose. You’ll serve God out of love stricter and stronger than you ever would have out of legalism.”
Joe Absher
We have 2 “A’s” accidentally & actually. Maybe a few more will help:
Philippians 3:12 KJV — Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may APPREHEND that for which also I am APPREHENDED of Christ Jesus.”
Ray E Horton
That’s such a good scripture. Knowing that our spirits have become new creations with the gift of God’s righteousness in Christ, we are indeed “apprehended” at the soulish level, to work out our salvation and grow from glory to glory. That is our destiny, for our soul to become like our perfected spirit, but it is a lifetime process as we renew our minds to who we are now in Christ.
Joe Absher
Colossians 3:5 KJV — Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Sound familiar? It should it’s in the ten commandments:
Exodus 20:17 KJV — Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.
Leslie Monahan
Llppp0000
Varnel Watson
Alan Smith I would have tagged Tom Steele in this one here first, but he always gets me on the whole bacon thing 🙂
Alan Smith
Be a food little godly person and renounce bacon, heck all pork!
Jared Cheshire
Troy Day, leaving the OT law out of the equation, is pork unhealthy?
Alan Smith
Jared Cheshire VERY,
but you didn’t ask me.
?
Jared Cheshire
Alan Smith I assumed you’d answer that in the affimitive.
Alan Smith
Jared Cheshire yes sir!!!!
Jared Cheshire
Call it an educated guess.
Jared Cheshire
So we can all say we know it isn’t a good thing, health wise, to eat pork because of the toxins in the fat and parasites in the blood, right?
Jared Cheshire
James 4:17
Alan Smith
I have not put ANY pork in my body for 6 years. I’ve actually lost my desire to eat it.
Joe Absher
Psalm 94:12 KJV — Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;
Ray E Horton
Joe Absher The law was what they had in the O.T., but it could not lead to salvation. The law was to drive them to faith.
Varnel Watson
law-n-order
Barbara Ann Wolfe
We are under Grace because Christ was the perfect Sacrifice! The law was a measure showing us we could not keep it!
Law says you are blessed IF you go work! Grace says you are blessed NOW go to work!
Joe Absher
“For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”
– Matthew 5:18,19
( the words of our Lord)
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Joe Absher he still alive and teaching under the LAW! You have to be careful in Gospels . New covenant did not take effect until he died!!!! OT prophesied this!
Joe Absher
I would say you should be careful not to ignore sound biblical counsel
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Sound doctrine when you open eyes and look. I was raised in both.
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Joe Absher I do not ignore OT. There is a huge difference between OT Scripture and OT covenant.
Joe Absher
“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”
– Matthew 5:27-29
Let us address the lust and perversion in the heart of God’s people. Is there a finer instrument and more thorough breaking than Christ’s own words
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Joe Absher again he is still teaching the law. They were still under the law.
Joe Absher
You answer the words of Christ this way. Without a care for him who bore your sin
Ray E Horton
Yes, Jesus upped the ante, so to speak, and made it more clear than did even the law that we can’t be righteous without Him.
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Ray E Horton amen
Joe Absher
I’m saved by grace. And kept by grace. But I think sometimes people care more for their doctrine of grace than they do for the person of Christ himself
Kenneth W Phelps
We Do For Jesus Said He Came To Complete The Law Not To Do Away wiyh ih Right and I For one Will Not Call Jesus A Liar
Ray E Horton
Right, He fulfilled the law and provided salvation, something the O.C. law couldn’t do. But, the law is not done away with since it still shows sinners their sins and drives them to Jesus for their salvation.
Kenneth W Phelps
Amen
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Ray E Horton
The key to understanding the relationship between the Christian and the Law is knowing that the Old Testament law was given to the nation of Israel, not to Christians. Some of the laws were to reveal to the Israelites how to obey and please God (the Ten Commandments, for example). Some of the laws were to show the Israelites how to worship God and atone for sin (the sacrificial system). Some of the laws were intended to make the Israelites distinct from other nations (the food and clothing rules). None of the Old Testament law is binding on Christians today. I’m not saying we should do away with the OT SCRIPTURES.
When Jesus died on the cross, He put an end to the Old Testament law. here are scriptures to show us (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23–25; Ephesians 2:15).
Ray E Horton
Barbara Ann Wolfe Yes indeed, it doesn’t apply to us. We are already saved by grace through faith. But, it still does have a place of driving sinners to Jesus to be saved.
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Ray E Horton agreed no doubt.
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Ray E Horton I am new to this page. I don’t usually get Into debates. I am grounded in what I believe but I don’t want to push it on anyone. I believe God will reveal his truths when he wants or if he wants.
I see someone called you Pastor?
Ray E Horton
Seems like everyone here gets called pastor. 🙂 I have pastored, but not presently. I don’t see where we disagree, but we all are entitled to the perspective the Lord has put on our hearts, and we all should be teachable.
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Ray E Horton what church did you pastor? Yes I agree. One thing I continue reading is a very defensive perspective of what they perceive others to believe. I think we can have a false preconceived notion of what other denominations actually believe or teach. I have heard people say Baptist believe the OT Is not important and they don’t study it.
That is not true of me or any Baptist Church I have been a member.
Growing up in the summers with my grandma in McRae Ga, my aunt would take me to The Church of God every Sunday. Then at home , I would attend Baptist churches with friends or on special occasions. I have been well exposed to both denominations. It wasn’t until my early 20’s that I felt hungry to actually study things that I had gotten stumped on. I had peeled the onion all the way back and had questions and more questions. Then I started studying “views”. I learned of RC sproul , John Piper, John Edwards and John MacArthur . I started digging!
Joe Absher
The problem as I see it is the way “grace” is presented it hinders true conviction and repentance and provides false comforts. It’s an awful shame when the pastors hinder the true work of God’s spirit namely reproving sin and conviction of heart
While the so-called Bible teachers bewail hypergrace they themselves perpetratate it’s ill by excluding and discounting the role of God’s law in the church of God.
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Joe Absher I believe as a child of God , you cannot hinder his convicting. Paul even says this :
Romans 6:1-3
Well then, shall we keep on sinning so that God can keep on showing us more and more kindness and forgiveness?
Of course not! Should we keep on sinning when we don’t have to? For sin’s power over us was broken when we became Christians and were baptized to become a part of Jesus Christ; through his death the power of your sinful nature was shattered.
As carnal man we didn’t have this power. But as a child of God he has given us the ability to have power over sin through him. I believe in eternal salvation. But I do not believe you can truly be saved and then just go do what you want because it will not be what you desire. Your heart has changed. In Romans it is written he is the potter, we are the clay. He molds us and makes us how he chooses. Some will be for noble purposes and some will be for common use. So who are we to question him. He will have mercy on who he wants to have mercy.
We are to keep a close relationship with our Father by asking for forgiveness to keep us close as an earthy father and son would also do. The son will always be the fathers blood. The father will always be his father no matter what. If the son disrespects or walks away from his father, he is still his father. They have to communicate to become truly close. To truly know one another.
Connie Wolfe Beck I thought you might find this conversation interesting.
Joe Absher
My dear sister you can indeed hinder the ministry of the holy ghost. I fact many grieve him at their own peril.
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Joe Absher i don’t feel I have power over the sovereignty of God. I humble myself at his feet and have no power over him at all.
Joe Absher
Even a mouse has voice
Varnel Watson
Tom Steele how do you obey both OT and federal laws at the same time when they are in conflict with each other?
Tom Steele
Can you give me a specific conflict? And besides, our government is very tolerant toward religious beliefs, goes back to that whole freedom of religion thing. If there were something that I needed to do to obey The Bible, pretty sure I’d just have to address it to my first line supervisor and accommodations would be made.
Varnel Watson
working on the Sabbath to start with ?
Tom Steele
I don’t work on the Sabbath. Apart from the military, I am not sure there are very many people would would even be asked to do such a thing. Even at that, should such a position open up that I was interested in, all I would have to do is tell them I cannot work from Friday night through Saturday night in keeping the Sabbath.
Also, if you notice, even in Scripture there were priestly duties that went on 24/7, so that included the Sabbath. Also, there were watchmen set on the wall 24/7, a type of military defense measure, so there appears to be justification for military forces performing their duties on the Sabbath.
What I can tell you is that even in the military, specifically the Navy in my experience years ago, very little is even done on a Saturday and Sunday, even when the ship was underway. And with all that said, it’s likely from what I remember even back then that if someone were to go into the military as an observer of the Sabbath, provisions would be made for that person. After all, there are plenty of people who don’t keep the Sabbath to get whatever tasks done that someone thinks should be done on the Sabbath.
Obviously there are several examples of God’s people in Scripture who were under the rule of a pagan nation. Whether Egypt, Babylon, or Rome, there were times when God’s people had to balance both obedience to Scripture with the laws of the nation that lived in.
Varnel Watson
postal service and many many others
Alan Smith
Yep…USPS started that awhile back.
Tom Steele
Well, I don’t work for the Post Office. I work a Monday through Friday job at the Dept. Of Defense and most days I work out of my house. Do there’s not really any conflict with obeying The Bible.
Varnel Watson
Dept. Of Defense – no conflict 🙂 got ya
Robert Erwine
The law is death
Ray E Horton
Robert Erwine yep, if you believe your Bible.
Varnel Watson
The law leads to death
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Troy Day yes. Meaning we can’t keep the law!!! The Bible says if you break one , you break them all.
Tom Steele
The Law is death? The Law lead to death? Let’s consult Scripture on this matter:
Now, O Israel, listen to the statutes and ordinances that I am teaching you to do, so that you may live and go in and possess the land that Adonai the God of your fathers is giving you.
~Deuteronomy 4:1 (TLV)
The Torah of Adonai is perfect,
restoring the soul.
~Psalm 19:8 (TLV)
Keep my mitzvot and live,
my teaching as the apple of your eye.
~Proverbs 7:2 (TLV)
I gave them My laws and taught them My judgments, which if a man does, he will live by them.
~Ezekiel 20:11 (TLV)
The only thing the Law kills is your sin-cursed nature that seeks to transgress the Law that separates you from God and sends you to hell.
Varnel Watson
The apostle Paul refers to the law of sin and death in Romans 8:1–2: “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.” What is the “law of sin and death”?
Joe Absher
If you sin you will die. sin kills the spirit of a man
Varnel Watson
as simple as 2+2=4
Tom Steele
Seriously? Let’s take a look at this with plain common sense.
What is the law of gravity? What goes up, must come down. Right?
So, we are dealing with “the law of sin and death”. Wouldn’t that mean the law that “the soul that sinneth, it shall die”?
I mean, come on.
So, we have been set free from the sin that causes us to die… eternally, in hell.
Where in the world Christians get this idea that being free from the law of sin and death means that Torah is death and whatnot is amazing to me. So, we are free from that Law not to murder? We are free from the one about adultery? How about homosexuality? Lying? Stealing?
I mean, I guess if we obey those Laws we will die, right? That’s what you are trying to tell me.
Varnel Watson
Read Rom 7 and come back to me with a more solid response than legalism humanistic logic
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Troy Day I agree and it needs to be backed up with his word. We have to proof everything! We cannot believe it because we were taught that way!!! It has to be studied as a whole.
Ray E Horton
Tom Steele Being “free from that Law not to murder,” etc. doesn’t mean we go out and do it, it means we now are empowered by love and grace to overcome sin. I no longer avoid sin because of fear of breaking the law, but out of love and appreciation for His forgiveness, the better and more effective motivation.
Varnel Watson
GRACE is all we need !
Ray E Horton
Troy Day And the faith to trust in that grace.
Varnel Watson
I trust grace not the law
Sola Gratia – everything else must go
Tom Steele
Ooooooooo… I can’t hardly wait to drop my newest blog on grace scheduled to post on Monday Feb. 4th.
Alan Smith
Tom Steele give us a little teaser…
Tom Steele
Alan Smith Nope, BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
The title is “Grace Before The Cross”. That’s all I’ll give you (because that much is already advertised on my blog archive page).
Alan Smith
On pins and needles…
Tom Steele
Alan Smith I got a citation in it from a Professor at Wheaton College, a Doctor of Theology, that will probably crawl up Troy’s crotch.
Varnel Watson
I;ve read both parts of the discussion I am still not 100% sure that Tom Steele urges us to keep the OT law per se I am 100% sure Joe Absher urges us to keep up with grace. I for one tend to chose the later… #simple
Joe Absher
Thank you Mr Day; Truthfully I am all about the grace of God. The amazing Grace. But I think the law God, particularly the moral law, is effective for calling out sin and exposing the heart of rebellion. Sadly the “modern” church does little to confront sin. The great preachers of the past really did address sin and preached not only righteousness by faith in Christ but holy living.
Shawn Corfee
In the word it says that the word was inspired by God and if you take from or add to the word then your part in the lambs book of Life will be tanken out. So yes we must take the old and new testament together. He is the same yesterday today and forever.
Robert Erwine
hold onto your hat Shawn , but that verse references just to the book of Revelation , not the whole bible, as it was not put together yet when this was written and even then books were discarded over the centuries .
Tom Steele
Yes, it says that in Revelation… but it FIRST said it in the Torah, referring only to the Torah, because when it says it in the Torah that would have been the only “Bible” in existence at that point.
You must not add to the word that I am commanding you or take away from it—in order to keep the mitzvot of Adonai your God that I am commanding you.
Deuteronomy 4:2 (TLV)
If you are not aware, a “mitzvot” is a Hebrew term that refers specifically and exclusively to something God instructed in the Torah.
Robert Erwine
yeah I know I converted to Christianity from Judaism and by that very definition the new testament is rejected among my brothers and sisters .
Shawn Corfee
Yes that’s a common act but it’s wrong if we did not need the old testament then it would not have been written. And Jesus say I did not come to do away with the law but that though me it would be full filled that means we can’t keep the law on our own but only through Jesus and what he did at the cross and a right relationship with Jesus not religion and tradition
Rico Hero
Jesus said in the sermon on the Mt – “I did not come to destroy ( rip up?) the Law but to fulfill it”. What happens to something fulfilled? Why say, “This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you” .If the Law Covenant is still in effect?
Rico Hero
Tom Steele,fun fact: in dispensational theology ( a dispensation is the religious system having authority at a particular time –with the Holy Spirit working in all dispensations), In the mellienial Kingdom to come, the Law of Moses –snip-All the former sacrifices, feasts, and rituals of the temple worship will be continued as an eternal memorial of what they were types of before Christ fulfilled them (Ezek. 43:19-27; 44:5,30; 45:17-25; 46:1-24 Zech. 14:16-21 Isa. 66:19-24. dake
Varnel Watson
dispensational theology ( a dispensation is the religious system having authority at a particular time
says who?
Rico Hero
Troy Day A dictionary and my favorite def of what a dispensation is. From oikonomia, an administration. An administration describes the group of people running an organization ( eg the Trump administration).Eph. 3:2 if indeed you have heard of the [a]dispensation of the grace of God which was given to me for you,
Tom Steele
Right… The Feasts were kept before Christ. The Feasts will be kept in the Millennium. But for some reason, Christianity today does not have to keep them and instead gets to celebrate pagan festivals (Christmas, Easter, Halloween) in their place.
That makes a lot of sense to me. SMH
Dispensationalism is all too often used to try and justify living in a “period of time” where we don’t have to obey The Bible.
Not saying dispensationalism is right or wrong, just that it is generally used today to create this false justification of a “salvation” that does not require one to keep the commandments. And THAT is wrong.
Rico Hero
Tom Steele Christians changing pagan festivals to fit Christianity so they can celebrate them is about as much of a sin as Christians celebrating Jewish Feasts. In both cases, it is a personal choice one makes that will not damn your soul.
snip
23 “All things are lawful,”……25 Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience……..27 If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 28 But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience— 29 I do not mean your conscience, but his.
The Apostle Paul was a strict Pharisee under the Law of Moses who also Christians. Why ? Not “obeying the Bible” “Creating this false justification of ‘salvation’ that does not require one to to keep the commandments ”
After his conversion and receiving a dispensation he realized the religious system he was under was abolished for the new Covenant.
Your take on dispensations and is wrong.
Tom Steele
The Bible calls them the Feasts of The Lord, not Jewish Feast. They don’t belong to the Jews. They belong to God and ALL who follow Him, Jew or Gentile.
Tom Steele
And, The Apostle Paul said “Let us celebrate to Feast”, referring to Passover/Unleavened Bread. He said that in the New Testament, to New Testament Believers… in the “dispensation” we are in today, if you prefer.
Rico Hero
Tom Steele Do you see the Church as Israel? Those feast of the Lord were for Jews. The Passover was also for the Jews . Paul wants that we celebrate the passover in the new light , not that we were a part of the exodus. Col 2;16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.Gal 4;10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! 11 I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
Joe Absher
“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”
– Galatians 2:16
Joe Absher
“For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.”
– Romans 10:3
Joe Absher
Are today’s Christians bias against the moral law of God?
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Joe Absher that is and has been a huge debate among the greatest scholars of all time. Of course All Of this is great to debate on and interesting to study. But God tells us not to lean on our own understanding. I believe what the WORD says. The things I don’t understand , I take by faith. I am mere human and have not the mind of God.
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Joe Absher if you have a moment. John MacArthur explains his interpretation, which I find correct as far as I have studied. Of course we have to study by hermeneutics so that we gather all , to understand a little.
https://www.gty.org/library/sermons-library/2209/christ-and-the-law-part-1
Rico Hero
Barbara Ann Wolfe Can you sum up what MacArthur says?
Joe Absher
my dear sister we have a whole book full of the mind of God.
Ray E Horton
John MacAarthur is a hostile cessationists, and has little credibility with me..
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Rico Hero I am very opened minded and will listen to whom ever without preconceived judgement. I take time to read others views so i can proof that against scripture because I seek the truth not what i think. I would hope all would do the same by taking time to study another’s view.
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Ray E Horton I never have to eat the whole pie. I find knowledge and understanding reading all views
Barbara Ann Wolfe
Who are some of your favorite authors?
Ray E Horton
Barbara Ann Wolfe Andrew Wommack, R. Loren Sandford, Frank Viola’s among current writers.
Rico Hero
Barbara Ann Wolfe I agree that newbies seeking truth should be open minded. I know MacArthur and his famous -strange fire (He most likely thinks that I am influenced by the devil ). Oh well.
Barbara Ann Wolfe
I read John Piper, John MacArthur , RC Sproul, Charles Spurgeon, John Owen, Michael Kapler.
Barbara Ann Wolfe
I have been studying theology for over 20 years. Like I have stated before, I was raised both Pentecostal and Baptist. And even further than that , my grandmother was a primitive Baptist on my fathers side. I was raised with many different views. I thank The good Lord I was!
I feel many have believed one thing for so long they can’t see or hear anything else. A belief system is very strong indeed! “It is true because my grandmother said , and I believe her”. I used to believe chiggers embedded into your skin! I had always believed that! I was brought up that way. One day a doctor corrected me and told me they did not. She even showed me in a medical book. I still stood by my grandmothers beliefs. It was hard to believe that it wasn’t true. I needed to see it written in many more places before I actually believed it. Our minds get stuck in one place and we refuse to expand to see what else is there? Many become defensive of their beliefs and begin attacking others. I am here to read and learn from others, Not to prove I am right!
Barbara Ann Wolfe
I appreciate each of you for your wisdom and knowledge. I know several of you have been studying a lot longer.
Varnel Watson
Tom Steele PLS clarify Are you NOW saying all CHRISTIANS are obligated to keep the OT LAW? What say ye?
Daniel Ho
My question would be: are you saved by obedience to the laws or by faith in Christ?
Varnel Watson
This is HUGH right now in America We are seeing Christians demanding social justice , political election and other self involvement as part of the evangelical identity instead of salvation through faith alone
Daniel Ho
Troy Day amen. We are to continue to preach the good news through faith Only in Christ, and the fruit of being saved is by our works.
Daniel Ho
Troy Day stay true to the gospel and I will be praying for the faithful in America.
Naathan Lewis
Your obedience to the Law is an expected result of your acceptance of the Jewish Messiah. Or did you think you could just get saved and coast through life just like you were before?
Varnel Watson
THIS IS HUGE right now ppl What do you think I need immediate theological response ONLY Biblical apologetic with Bible verses please An identical post about Christians obeying laws was declined by the administration so I want a clean discussion and no breaking of rules Thank you
Dana Salomon
Troy Day
It is HUGE with God too. He has established a law. Christ is lawgiver and Judge. People are disregarding it, with the audacity to say it in the name of Jesus. But He is God’s Word lived out perfectly in a physical body, applied right to every situation as the wisdom of God. He says that those who deny God’s Law do not have the same spiritual DNA as Him, ‘I never knew you.’
James 4:12
12There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Jesus told us that Moses wrote of Him!
Moses 5:46-47
For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
Danie Van Der Westhuizen
Jesus said, Blessed are those who keeps my Father’s commandments .
Varnel Watson
Do you defend keeping the OT law based on this? Jesus said also lots of things about 2 commandments only
Danie Van Der Westhuizen
It’s very simple. I believe what Jesus says, and I prefer to have His Blessing, rather than not. You can nitpick all you want . I stop at, what did Jesus say.
Theodore A. Jones
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Romans 2:13
Varnel Watson
so are you saying the CHURCH should keep the law
Theodore A. Jones
Troy Day Romans 2:13 is a statement made by the apostle Paul. It is only those who have the faith to obey the law he is referencing who are the ones whom God will declare righteous.
Dana Salomon
Theodore A. Jones
We come through Christ who strengthens us to do all things. Abiding in the vine. His blood-sap which is the Word, living in us.
Eric Rankin
They, like Christ, fulfill it.
Romans 8:4, “so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.”
Varnel Watson
but HOW – own works or what?
Eric Rankin
Troy Day Great question. I will attempt to answer to the best of my scriptural knowledge.
Here goes ?. In Romans specifically, since I quoted Romans 8:4, Paul is explaining about how the Jews (Israel) were claiming righteousness in the basis of being a physical descendant of Abraham and according to the Law of Moses. The issue at hand Paul was dealing with was circumcision, which became to the Jew a claim physically that they were God’s people, even though they still transgressed the Law.
Paul says that Abraham was shown to be righteous even before he was circumcised. Paul makes this point to proved that our righteousness isn’t on the basis of following the Law of Moses, but on the basis of faith in what God asks us to do.
Romans chapters 6, 7, and 8 and others, Paul explains that the Christian is spiritually circumcised, if I may use that phrase, in immersion (Romans 6, Colossians 2:11-12), by submitting to what God has instructed by our faith we fulfill “the righteous requirement of the Law”.
The requirement of the Law was not obedience necessarily, but righteousness. But the Law focused the attention on the “flesh”, the Law forced conformity from the outside, whereas walking by the Spirit, as Paul says, changes the heart or inside. As Jesus taught, cleanse the inside of the cup first.
This isn’t complete, but hope it’s a start. ?
Dana Salomon
Eric Rankin
1 John 2:7-
Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.
As John reveals, the new commandment is that the Light of the world came (Jesus) and told us to be the light of the world.
The new covenant is not a new law, but the law written on our hearts, powered by His own Spirit living in and through those who believe.
Dana Salomon
Troy Day
1 John 2:7-
Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.
As John reveals, the new commandment is that the Light of the world came (Jesus) and told us to be the light of the world.
The new covenant is not a new law, but the law written on our hearts, powered by His own Spirit living in and through those who believe.
Varnel Watson
Dana Salomon Good verses What do they mean to you ? how are you fitting them in your reasoning per OP?
Dana Salomon
Troy Day
The last 2 paragraphs which I added after the scripture portion show how they fit.
Loel Passe
Romans 10:
3+ For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God
Varnel Watson
what about James and Acts 15
Loel Passe
Troy Day all verses have to “fit” without contradiction or it’s our interpretation that is wrong. There are 2 types of righteousness: one which is of man’s obedience (and even the best of it is a filthy rag before God). The other, is the righteousness of Christ which is Perfect and it is imputed to us by faith – not by anything we can possibly do. The only one acceptable to God is Christ’s righteousness. I’m Always puzzled by Christians who think they can muster up some disciplined obedience or righteousness which is acceptable to God. No matter how good it is it falls way short and in fact, it is an offense to the Lord to think you can do it outside of Christ’s righteousness which is imparted you us as a “GIFT”! “If righteousness can come by works then Christ died in vain”.
Dana Salomon
Loel Passe
True, so we have to obey God’s Word/Law by the power of Yielding to His Spirit in us.
We do not lay aside His Word, we live it by the grace of His presence.
1 John 2:7-
Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.
As John reveals, the new commandment is that the Light of the world came (Jesus) and told us to be the light of the world.
The new covenant is not a new law, but the law written on our hearts, powered by His own Spirit living in and through those who believe.
Varnel Watson
Loel Passe pls fit them for us Dana Salomon
Dana Salomon
Troy Day
What do you mean?
Varnel Watson
Dana Salomon the verses Loel posted How do they fit in this discussion here What are yall saying?
Dana Salomon
Troy Day
I explained already.
Donna Mcgann
That depends which OT law the 10 commandments or the 613 mosaic law. The 10 commandments yes but not the 613 masaic law. The mosaic law says that if you break one you break them all. There is one law that is unable to be kept and that is the yearly visit to the temple which was distroyed in 70 AD.
Rodel Amporias
Donna Mcgann Yep! And if one insist that yes, then we must obeserve all the laws there atleast 612 Mosiac Laws not just the ten commandments at all the Jewish festivals and animal sacrifices.
Donna Mcgann
https://www.gospeloutreach.net/613laws.html
Donna Mcgann
For those who believe that we are still under this law could you please read and tell me how many of them can be followed today.
Steve Rubes
I’m so glad the Miesiah came while many things in the Old Testament remain Jesus changed things like what foods you can and can not eat.
Dana Salomon
Steve Rubes
No He did not change any part of the Word or He would have sinned, transgressing the Law and teaching against it. He never taught against the Law of God or sinned. He upheld God’s law in proper hierarchy with love as motivation.
Jave Suan
But the Decalogue is eternal.
Matthew Jarzembak
…
John Watson
Moral law, yes.
Nishan Thapa
whole bible is the law…..
Panga-Kulu Anda-Harapa
No
Tim Spangler
We need to trust Jesus
Michael Spicer
In the Sermon on the Mount the Author of the law made clear the true meaning of its precepts, and the way in which its precepts would find expression in the thinking and living of citizens of the kingdom He had come to establish (see on Isa. 59:7). The great Lawgiver Himself now reaffirmed the pronouncements of Sinai as binding upon those who would be His subjects, and announced that anyone who should presume to annul them either by precept or by example would “in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven” (Matt. 5:20).
It is quite evident from the opening words of this text that Christ was reading the minds of His critics who were accusing Him of doing away with the law. He said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy but to fulfill.” Instead of abolishing it, He was actually doing the opposite. The word “fulfill” means literally “to fill; to make full.” The same word is used in Matthew 3:15 where Jesus spoke concerning His baptism: “Suffer it to be so now; for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness.”
There is nothing in the word which signifies “to bring an end to” or “abolish.” The law and prophets included not just the Ten Commandments, but all the Old Testament writings. Christ fulfilled those Scriptures, just as He fulfilled all righteousness at His baptism, by obedience to them. Paul used the word in Colossians 1:25: “Whereof I am made a minister, … to fulfill the word of God.” This does not mean to bring the word of God to an end, but rather to fully carry it out in obedience. In Romans 8:4, the sense is clearly revealed by the same word used in this sentence: “That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit.” Even those who seek to abolish the law must admit that the righteousness of those who walk after the Spirit is not “fulfilled” by being abolished. Yet this is the same word used in Matthew 5:17 to “fulfill” the law.
Finally, Paul gives a classic example of the word “fulfill” in Galatians 6:2: “Bear ye one another’s burdens and so fulfill the law of Christ.” Not one Christian believes that the law of Christ has been abolished. Neither should any Christian feel that the “law and the prophets” have been abolished. Romans 13:8-10 tells how to fulfill the law of the Ten Commandments by obedience to it.
Michael Lavender
Ceremonial? No
Glory Kramlich
Yes, the Ten Commandments!
Roque Salazar
Glory Kramlich the is more laws than the 10 commandments
Tom Joseph
Different people were given different laws. The Jews were given the ten commandments. EVERYONE was commanded to love God. …………………………………………………………………………………………………………….The laws remain, but the penalties for disobedience have been paid for His children. We just need to agree to accept His gift of adoption into His family.
Varnel Watson
hey NO not the same day on FB Robert Cox Neil Steven Lawrence Isara Mo just hit this one here and see HOW MANY OT saints we got that dont believe the NT no more
Madison Willoughby
We can’t keep the OT law perfectly. This is the reason Jesus, the ONLY sinless person came to fulfill the law with His sacrifice so that the burden to keep it would no longer be on us who accept Him as Savior. Those who don’t accept Him as Savior must pay the wage for failing to keep the law all by themselves. It is the reason they will perish.
The Pharisees were condemned because they only cared about the letter of the law and not the spirit of it. That being said, God has parameters in place so that we live holy lives before Him.
Joshua Jackson
Madison Willoughby Hallelujah to the Deliverer of our souls ??
Dana Salomon
Madison Willoughby
Keeping the Law never saved anybody but not keeping it damns those who don’t.
We keep God’s law when we yield to the Spirit of Christ who teaches us how to correctly apply the Word of God in perfect wisdom to the circumstances of our lives.
Madison Willoughby
Dana Salomon Yes, and…..? It appears we are in perfect agreement.
Dana Salomon
Madison Willoughby
Salvation is a separate matter from ‘holy’ living as a people ‘called out’ and separated to live God’s Word.
Revence J Kalibwani Ssalongo
Yes. It is God’s word and God’s promise didn’t change. Jesus himself read this testment in the temple.
Dan Farnow
No. The Mosaic law is not relevant today and was meant to be temporary. An example of this is Acts 10:9 – 16. I recommend you read Acts 15:1-21. This talks about the very same thing on whether to impose the Jewish laws on Gentile believers. The verdict was that the Gentiles abstain from food polluted by idols, meat of strangled animals and from blood, and from sexual immorality. Of course, the 10 commandments still apply as well.
Dana Salomon
Dan Farnow
To say that it is ‘irrelevant’ is undermining God’s Law in your context describing it as temporary.
How do you fit Jesus’ words from Matthew 5 into your theological structure?
Matthew 5
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Do you believe portions of scripture that attest that He is coming to reign in Justice and peace in the 7th millenia? And ‘a law will go forth from Jerusalem’?
Isaiah 2:3
and many peoples shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Micah 4:2
and many nations shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Zechariah last 3 chapters etc.
Romans 11 reveals that this time period without a physical Temple has a specific purpose.
Neil Steven Lawrence
“Social justice“ depends on who defines the terms.
Tim Spangler
Amen to that!
Nathan Dumser
CAN I JUST SAY THAT WHY ISN’T THIS PAGE ALLOWING POSTS ABOUT THE CURRENT STATE OF AFFAIRS IN AMERICA!!! As Christians, it is our duty to address the current climate through a biblical lens and moderators will not allow posts to come through.
Tim Spangler
What is your take?
Nathan Dumser
Tim Spangler I think as Christians, we are the ones who are supposed to hear the downtrodden, the weary, and the heavy laden. We should try our hardest to view the protests and national crisis through the lens of empathy and a heart for understanding. Embrace empathy over judgement. Use our ears and not our assumptions.
Tim Spangler
Nathan Dumser Should we have empathy for those looting and burning police cars?
Nathan Dumser
Tim Spangler no, but that’s apples and oranges. Burning a car <<<< systemic profiling and injustice for centuries.
Tim Spangler
Nathan Dumser I think there is more than one issue. Do you consider racism a human condition or a caucasian condition
Nathan Dumser
Tim Spangler umm, definitely human. But as white people, we are the “dominant” group. And we need to be vigilant of how our perceptions and actions affect the marginalized groups. Or lack of addressing them.
Varnel Watson
wondering the SAME thing as many others here Nikki Sheppick
Nikki Sheppick
Troy Day I am not aware of any submission to date …. all I can say is that you follow the general rules regarding the site, and try to submit something and see. PS: I am not always on here to see it all. Thanks. <3
Leonard Alt
This actually a very good question; we don’t follow the works of the law (Old Testament). It was dealt with in Acts 15 where Peter says and I paraphrase “don’t put this (circumcision) on the gentiles coming into the Church.” This is why we don’t circumcise as a requirement in Christianity today. This is the same work of the law that was being dealt with in Romans 3:28-30. This is why we don’t follow the more than 600 laws of the Old Testament. We do follow the 10 commandments because it was Jesus Himself, who said “keep the commandments” and then goes on to list a number of the commandments.
Varnel Watson
YES or NO – Bible proof pls Leonard Alt
Leonard Alt
Troy please read it and note Acts 15.
Varnel Watson
Leonard Alt I mentioned Acts 15 and James above Pls read my comment and state your reasoning
Glenn Buchanan
No we don’t NEED TO.. but we should desire to
Tim Spangler
We should obey Jesus
Glenn Buchanan
Tim Spangler as long as the Christian discerns whether Jesus is talking about first Covenant Commandments or New Covenant Commands
Tim Spangler
Glenn Buchanan Fair enough
Jim Ring
ALL the LAW and PROPHETS are FULFILLED in this. Love the Lord God with all your heart and love others as yourself.-Jesus.
Mark Wilson
Jesus fulfilled the ceremonial law. We no longer have to sacrifice animals for our sins. Civil laws do not exist anymore because they were for people who did not have a government at that time. For example, land had to returned to a certain tribe every 50 years. Moral laws still apply. Jesus did not dismiss the 10 commandments and frequently told people to “stop sinning”.
Leonard Alt
In fact this is even reinforced further in the book of Hebrews where Paul says there is no longer need for animal sacrifice because we have the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. In the Old Testament we have the sacrificial lamb and in the New Testament we have the Lamb of God (Jesus) who takes away the sins of the world. If we were under the old law we still would have to do animal sacrifice, but we are not. Thank you, Mark! God bless you my friend!
Arthur Adam Haglund
FALSE
Jesus Christ is the END of the law for RIGHTEOUSNESS.
This is not ceremony!
100% of what Jesus said and did was UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES.
BTW, my capitalizing is not yelling, but emphasis, like bold type or italics, but FB offers neither.
Jesus was in ministry of fulfilling the Law of Moses and was sent to no one onside the Children of Israel. by his own words.
What he said and did was under the Law. No one, not even the blood Jews are under the Law, today, but they do not know this.
Now, How can we not be under the Law of Moses, yet murder is still a sin? or adultery?
How does the Law continue, in other words.
I doesn’t.
Have you purchased Auotmobile insurance?
Is the policy eternal or does it end and a new policy is written?
Does the new policy contain much of the same language and qualifications as the old?
What if you are in an accident? can you make a claim under the old policy? Will any claim be paid under the old lapsed policy?
No! only the new policy is enforceable.
So, it is fully error to claim that the old covenant or the Law of Moses partially continues. It is fully a New one that still holds many of the same truths.
Many will say this is ridiculous. If so, I think that person denies if if they buy insurance after the old policy terminates. Just keep living under the old policy and see what happens.
Deborah Bray
Those who are under the New Covenant are governed by the Spirit who demands obedience that transcends the Old Covenant law. For example, it is not enough that a man under the New Covenant not commit adultery which is forbidden in the Old Covenant. Under the governance of the Spirit a man is required to love his wife; to love her more than he loves himself, to put her happiness above his own fleeting pleasures, to honor her and treat her with kindness and consideration, and to never do or say or even think anything that would be harmful or destructive to his relationship with her.
And ditto for a wife.
A high calling second only to a relationship with God.
For Christians, we are under obedience to the Spirit who is alive and dwelling in us shaping and molding and conforming us to be the kind of person Jesus is. And that’s something the Old Covenant law could not and was never intended to do.
Delissa Fry
No man could keep the old Law so Jesus came and abolished the old law and we now live under grace . Living under grace we don’t want to break the 10 Commandments but we know if we do , we can go directly to God for forgiveness , Jesus’ will cover it with his blood so no more animal sacrificing to atone for our wrongs.
Angwang Martin Abajuh
It is only very acute spiritual laziness, complete misunderstanding of Jesus Christ and even the Laws themselves that gives rise to such a question or debate!
Come on, Jesus did not reject the laws; He could not because the Laws are the sacred WILL OF GOD THE FATHER! Jesus simply complimented and completed the Laws; He never rejected them! Would God Almighty give something to Israel that is contrary to His Holy Will! For your information, Jesus Christ only gave to mankind, a SIMPLER way to follow and fulfill the law– LOVE! He showed men a different way to do more or less the same thing because if a man can truly love, then, the rest is easy for him; then, HE AT THE SAME TIME FULFILLS THE LAWS!
Let no one be fooled that Jesus took away the responsibility and task of vigorous and robust spiritual activity that the fulfilment of the Laws had demanded!
THE TEN COMMANDENENTS, THE LAWS CONSTITUTE THE HOLY WILL OF THE FATHER; JESUS ONLY ADDED TO IT AND COMPLIMENTED IT!
Marley Sunil
There is only one law in the Bible .
In O.T only law was given but N.T it was interpreted and expanded by Jesus and Apostles..
John Calogrides
Folks, this is New Testament Christianity 101 and too many of you are unaware of these most basic fundamentals of the faith…..
The whole and entire purpose of the OT law, everything about it, the rituals, the restrictions, ALL of it was for ONE ultimate purpose. What was it??? ONE purpose, not two. ONE. What was it? To lead us to Chris Jesus. Galatians 3:24. So quite logically and reasonably, the whole Old Testament is to escort us, that’s the Greek meaning, escort us TO Christ Jesus. Okay, you can put your OT away for now. You’ve been led to Christs teaching now. And we know about this Christ’s teachings and what and why the OT escorted us directly to Him, by the accounts in the New Testament and writings of the Apostles. So when you’ve been led on a far journey through desserts and mountains, all to reach a land of plenty and calm and fair weather and terrain, once you’ve arrived, you put your roots down and start a new life in the new land of plenty and peace. You forget the trying dessert and cliffs that led you here. The entirety of the OT was to escort and teach you TO CHRIST ALONE. Once there, you don’t have to worry about the desert and cliffs anymore (OT law), it’s brought you to the new land. Christ. THUS, the teachings of Christ and the Apostles are the New land, the new covenant. The rules are a little different here than they were in the desert and edges of the cliffs. New land means new ways of doing things. A more revealed, clearer, HEART-BASED reason for doing things…..
If you seek to live according to all the OT teachings, and claim to be a NT believer in Christ Jesus, you are tragically deceived. You make Christ and the Apostles liars. Paul was impeccable, near perfection in his adherence and zeal to the OT law and faith, and in Christ, what did he say? It was still good stuff? It was still the Word? If that what he Paul said??? NO!!! He counted it all, everything he had rightly, truly accomplished in the Law, as “SKOBALA!” The entirely of it. That Greek word is sometimes translated RUBBISH OR GARBAGE, but most often it means “DUNG”. That is what Paul considered all his obedience and adherence to the Old Testament system. Paul was no hypicrite. He was a Hebrew of Hebrews, by the Law, BLAMELESS. And yet he called it all dung, POOP, in Christ….. Philippians 3:8-10
Anthony Delmedico
No
Josie Tiscareno
No
Josie Tiscareno
Start with Galatians, Romans.
Varnel Watson
how about we start with JAMES and such?
Josie Tiscareno
Troy Day that too
Karl Ernst Von Buddenbrock
Absolutely. Imagine not obeying it. “not one jot or tittle of the law will pass away.” One of the great weaknesses of modern day Christianity is thus hiding behind “New testament change” of the law. The law didn’t change. It never will. We live in one of the weakest Christian eras in history and this is one if f the reasons it is so weak. It has lost a perspective on holiness.
Bruce Butler
If you want to put yourself under the curse of the law, and bondage to it, go for it. Or just read Romans.
David A. Ajayi
Jesus Christ did not reach us not to obey commandments in the O.T. It was the O.T Laws that Christ came to fulfill.
Glory Kramlich
I am not clear on our Lord having spoken about the Old Law and the New Law. Which did not change the Ten Commandments.
David A. Ajayi
Glory Kramlich the whole Bible is the word of God written as the Holy Spirit inspired the writers. Moreover, the New Testament is the fulfilment of the Old Testament prophecies about Jesus Christ. If anyone is thinking that the Old Testament is not relevant, it is a great error.
Craig Reynolds
Christian need to follow the Moral 10 Commandments Laws, not the laws that applied to the Hebrew Nation and the add on laws.
Loel Passe
No. They need to follow the “law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus”.
David Buyna
Could elaborate with a verse reference.
Dana Salomon
Loel Passe
It is the same. Only by the Power of His Spirit living in us.
1 John 2:7-
Beloved, I am writing you no new commandment, but an old commandment that you had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word that you have heard.
At the same time, it is a new commandment that I am writing to you, which is true in him and in you, because the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining.
As John reveals, the new commandment is that the Light of the world came (Jesus) and told us to be the light of the world.
The new covenant is not a new law, but the law written on our hearts, powered by His own Spirit living in and through those who believe.
Loel Passe
Dana Salomon the new Covenant is a completely different dispensation where the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ has set us free from the Law of sin and death. Galatians 3:10. “For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.” Man’s righteousness is “not the same”. It is a filthy rag that falls way short of the righteous requirement. I’m fact no man can do it. That’s the whole point of the New Covenant in Christ’s blood. It imputes Christ’s righteousness to us by faith and wherever we fall short we are covered. Galatians 5:18+ But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Our faith is counted as righteousness: Romans 4:5+ But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 4:6
“Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works”
Romans 9:30+ “What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.”
Dana Salomon
Loel Passe
God’s law is NOT the law of sin and death. The law of sin and death is entropy and sickness and death resulting from sin.
We can overcome the consequence of our sin by being joined to His imperishable blood which never sinned.
Loel Passe
Dana Salomon read Romans. The reason the law was “of sin and death” (and clearly called this), is because it reveals and condemns ALL MEN under sin and is so high it cannot be obeyed by man. It shuts ALL mouths. That is why we need a Savior and a New Covenant! Galatians 4:21 “Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?”
Matthew 5:20+ “For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.”
In fact, Gentiles were never even under the Law!
And by the standard of the Law, if you keep the Whole Law (613 commandments) and offend in just ONE point you are guilty of breaking the whole law! James 2:10+ For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
Galatians 3:24+ “Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.”
Dana Salomon
Loel Passe
The schoolmaster teaches us…and then we learn and no longer need to be taught, but it does not mean that He taught us wrong.
We live like Christ because He is in us and we desire that Word.
Loel Passe
Dana Salomon Agreed. We are just not judged under the OT “Law”. We as Gentiles were NEVER under it anyway but Christ is our righteousness and it is a GIFT Romans 5:17+ For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of GRACE (unmerited favor) and of the GIFT of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.).
Romans 9:30+ “What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.”
Dana Salomon
Loel Passe
When Christ reigns, He will enforce it in perfect wisdom. Are you okay with that?
Isaiah 2:3
and many peoples shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Micah 4:2
and many nations shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Zechariah explains how Christ will judge the nations according to God’s law.
Those who teach against the least law now, will not understand His ways enough to be given responsibility in His kingdom.
Matthew 5:19
Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Loel Passe
Dana Salomon “we are complete in Him” now, and “we are dead and are life is hidden with Christ in God”. We are in Him and He in us. There is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus. For regenerated (born again of the Spirit) believers, we are not going back to OT Law obedience. In fact, we are already “seated with Him in the heavenlies” (Hebrews). The verses you reference refer to the “Nations” (the people who live in the millennial kingdom 1000 years. Again, his born again sons are already redeemed under the blood of His New Covenant and shall “never come unto condemnation”.
Our Faith (in Him) was the thing that was counted “as righteousness” for us and we will never revert back to following obedience of any disciplined judgmental structure. We have “already passed from death into Life (Zoe). The previous blood of the Lamb is “all sufficient” and is “eternally applied through the Spirit” (Hebrews). “The Nations” do not include born again (regenerated) believers.
Dana Salomon
Loel Passe
2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;
Revelation 5:10
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”
Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Loel Passe
Dana Salomon exactly, we rule and reign with Christ and are not a part of “the Nations” – we rule and reign with Christ “over the nations.” Two different groups entirely!
Dana Salomon
Loel Passe
Some still do not let Him even rule their lives, though He is worthy, and Jesus says they will be ‘least’ in His kingdom.
I agree that salvation is secure.
Loel Passe
Dana Salomon yes, many do not yield to the Spirit.
Dana Salomon
Loel Passe
Sadly, it isnt always because they don’t love the Word, but often because they are under bad teaching about the Word, doctrines of men that undermine the Word’s effectiveness and in bodies of fellowship where people equate indulging a person with loving them rather than speaking truth to help wash them with the Word.
If people do not function in their gifts of the Spirit, speaking a word of knowledge or wisdom when looking on as someone sins in ignorance, then the guilt is on them.
We are responsible to bear one another’s burdens and speak truth.
David Buyna
Mat_5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat_5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat_7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat 22:34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together.
Mat 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Thato Masiu
If our Lord Jesus Immanuel Christ did, Yes. If not, No. Why (Hebrews 12:2)
Aldrich Janelle
Paul was an exceptional teacher unfortunately people then struggled to understand him sometimes. Imagine how difficult it is for us today and two languages later. Paul never override the teachings of Christ. If he did then he is a false teacher or Jesus was a liar. Paul was not the only apostle. To see what Paul actually taught I recommend reading the other books of the Bible such as Peter the rock that Jesus would build His congregation on. Oops, too many people follow a false narrative of Paul and that makes them a follower of a false prophet not a Christian. Only those who follow the words of Christ as the real Paul and other apostles taught can call themselves Christians. This is going to be an unseen issue for many at the time of resurrection and possibly worse at the judgement throne. Shalom
Giepie C Delport
Jesus said:
Joh 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.
In the end:
Rev 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.
Tim Spangler
Giepie C Delport Do you obey perfectly?
Giepie C Delport
Tim Spangler irrelevant – it’s not about how perfectly one obey, it is about the decision to obey vs the decision not to.
That is what seperates a believer from everyone else.
Rom 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey,
• either of sin, which leads to death,
• or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Tim Spangler
Giepie C Delport obeying 2.3% is okie dokie?
Giepie C Delport
Tim Spangler I’m not the Judge, but it’s good advice not to tempt God’s Grace with sin….
Heb 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.
Tim Spangler
Giepie C Delport My friend..we ALL fall short…and the only thing ANY of us can do is plead for mercy/grace. That is the ONLY way to access the GIFT of eternal life
Wendy Beard
Giepie C Delport Jesus words in John 14 refer to JESUS’ commands, NOT the entire Old testament laws. Jesus did away with much of the Old Testamet laws: ceremonial, ritual, dietary, and national rules for Israel. Chrsitians only need follow the New Tesatment commands which are the moral commandments and to fellowship regularly with other Christians but no specifi day is commanded.
Giepie C Delport
Tim Spangler yes, we all fall short, but that is where we are divided into two groups:
• The lost, who wilfully continue to sin
• The saved, who repent and retry
Giepie C Delport
Wendy Beard false
Jesus said:
Mat 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.
Mat 5:18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Rev 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the ?commandments of God? and their faith in Jesus.
The ceremonial laws were temporarily added to God’s Law (Gal 3:19), until Jesus came.
But God’s 10 Commandments stand forever
Giepie C Delport
Wendy Beard
Giepie C Delport Good distinction above. However, the sabbath is optional:
Colossians 2: 16 Therefore, let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. 17 These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.
Romans 14: Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand.
5 One person considers one day more sacred than another; another considers every day alike. Each of them should be fully convinced in their own mind. 6 Whoever regards one day as special does so to the Lord. Whoever eats meat does so to the Lord, for they give thanks to God; and whoever abstains does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives for ourselves alone, and none of us dies for ourselves alone. 8 If we live, we live for the Lord; and if we die, we die for the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.
The Sabbath law is like all the other ceremonial, dietary, and ritualistic laws in the Old Testament that were done away with Christ. Only the moral laws, like the other nine, are eternal.
Giepie C Delport
Wendy Beard the weekly Sabbath was never a shadow.
Coll 2:17 CLEARLY says verse 16 is speaking of the shadowy sabbaths – have a look at the above meme
Giepie C Delport
Another good illustration
Wendy Beard
Giepie C Delport Interesting. Thanks for posting. Where did you get this information?
Giepie C Delport
Wendy Beard I was deceived once!
I grew up in my parents’ church, but after school left Christianity due to some things I was taught in Sunday school.
Then I discovered that evolution is false (my childhood church accepted evolution), which brought me back to Christianity (big thanks to br Kent Hovind).
And then – to answer your question – I really started seeking truth.
My wife just had my son, so I wanted to know the truth and how to ensure my family’s salvation.
I’m not sharing these things just to be seen, but because I deeply investigated it, and because I want everyone to be saved.
Giepie C Delport
Wendy Beard I have a few more interesting memes I’m happy to share. I don’t want to flood the page with memes though, but I think you might appreciate them. If you want, I could send them in messenger ?
Daniel P Campbell
No
Varnel Watson
NOT sure of the exact logistics of it tho
Steven Chakarovski
No
Robert Gilland
No
Sammy Yuri
We have to know the difference between descriptive and prescriptive Scripture. God bless ❤️
Angelino Acosta
YOU CAN NOT 100% OBEY BECAUSE OF THE FAULT ON THE PEOPLE.
New International Version 1984 Hebrews 8:7-8 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But GOD FOUND FAULT WITH THE PEOPLE and said: “The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
EVEN KING SOLOMON WITH FULL OF WISDOM FROM GOD
DISOBEYED!
Thank goodness, GOD create
a New Thing(Jer31:22)
Garvis Campbell
Well, it seems not murdering people is good for everyone in every age. The moral law is universal; fulfilled in Christ and expanded upon in his positive command to love, yes, but still normative for all time.
Carol Jeftha
New Testament says the Old Testament is for our learning
Here ones sees how God dealt with sin according to the Old Testament law
Now we can see how blessed we are to have a Advocate with the Father who
Is Jesus Christ
And understand His Mercy and Grace
Varnel Watson
Garvis Campbell Carol Jeftha how do yall mean Seems contradiction of opinion of some sort What does the BIBLE say?
Garvis Campbell
Jesus quotes the moral law and then expands its meaning. This isn’t difficult to grasp. If the moral law is now void, murder would be ok. Respectfully, I’ll not do your homework for you. This topic has been written on extensively and is readily available.
Varnel Watson
Moral Laws
I believe when Jesus died He was the Ultimate Final sacrifice for sin
And that done away with the Sacrificial laws.
When the VEIL was rent into in the Temple the ceremonial law was done away with. Everyone has the opportunity to become a Temple of God through accepting Jesus Christ and his cleansing atoning blood of Salvation by Repenting of your sins, confessing your sins, asking forgiveness for yours and believing the Lord Jesus Christ
The moral law was not destroyed
But the differnce is you dont keep the moral law to earn salvation, but you keep the moral law because you love Jesus and you do not want sin in your life.
The moral law was carried over into the New Testament in such places as Romans chapter 1 & 12 as well 1 Corinthians 5 , Galatians chapter 5, Ephesians chaptet 5.
Varnel Watson
Gal. Forbids circumcision…unless you keep the Law of Moses you cannot be saved Paul say he wished those who want you to be circumcised to “go circumcise themselves!!!” Paul called circumcision in the church age “Another Gospel”!
James says be ye doers of the word. And not hearers only…And the Apostles in Jerusalem (Acts 15) said “of keeping the Law of Moses we give no commands,” So obey the commands in the Gospels and in the letters are the word we are to keep and obey.
Gina Draker
Not unless it is repeated in the New Testament. We are indeed under a new covenant and our law is that given to us by Christ.
Dana Salomon
It is HUGE with God too. He has established a law. Christ is lawgiver and Judge. People are disregarding it, with the audacity to say it in the name of Jesus. But He is God’s Word lived out perfectly in a physical body, applied right to every situation as the wisdom of God. He says that those who deny God’s Law do not have the same spiritual DNA as Him, ‘I never knew you.’
James 4:12
12There is only one lawgiver and judge, he who is able to save and to destroy. But who are you to judge your neighbor?
John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.”
Matthew 7:21-23
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Jesus told us that Moses wrote of Him!
Moses 5:46-47
For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
Alex Wong
to be clear/percise, in Galations 5 he says “2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. ” He would go on to delineate the difference between being circumcised in the flesh vs circumcised in the spirit… In the jerusalem council in acts 15, Peter says “9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” He then would go on to give 4 rules, 3 about meats, avoiding meats sacraficed to idols, strangled meat and blood, and lastly sexual immorality…. Those are the bare bones rules, if i may, other than Love you God with all your heart/mind/soul and love your neighbor as yourself… These rules set the tone for the church, anything more than that is up to each individual but is not a salvation issue.
Theodore A. Jones
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Romans 2:13
Alex Wong
The above verse is in context of hypocrisy saying those who die apart from the law would be judged apart from the law and those who die under the law will be judged by that law… That’s literally the verse before this verse… but a more telling passage is the next chapter where it says “22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26 he did it to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith. 28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30 since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.” so according to paul, the “law” we are under is one of faith on which is written on our hearts… If you want legalistic rules as to what we are to follow, see my comment above…
Theodore A. Jones
Alex Wong Contact the apostle Paul and tell him he has the problem of not knowing left from right.
Alex Wong
Theodore…. it’s all about context… here… here is the ENTIRE chapter to be taken in context… not just 1 verse… it clearly states that each are judged based on the “law” given to them… not everyone is going to be judged on the 600 laws of the mosaic covenant… Read and be blessed… “12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.”
Alex Wong
Just as Jeremiah claimed, the new covenant will be written on our hearts, not a set rule book… a set of laws Peter said their ancestors could not bear…. God lays his law on our hearts.. if we act outside of this law/conscience, even though we dont have the jewish law, we will be held accountable for acting against what we know is right.
Theodore A. Jones
Alex Wong Wong wrong! “For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” Heb. 7:12 and the law was changed by addition. “The law was added so that the trespass might increase.” Romans 5:20
Alex Wong
Theodore, you have a habit of grabbing single verses…. if we look at the paragraphs around this verse you cherrypicked, it talks about sin/trespass and justification… it’s a beautiful passage showing our common ancestory of adam, through his sin, we are all condemned, but justification is brought through by grace through Jesus Christ… Taken with the passages I already shared, it makes it clear that the law is written on our hearts, jerusalem council of acts 15 already cleared it up, faith in Jesus is our law… and trying to add onto that is foolishness… “15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!
18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Alex Wong
Even in your hebrews verse, looking at the whole chapter, you get gems like “11 If perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood—and indeed the law given to the people established that priesthood—why was there still need for another priest to come, one in the order of Melchizedek, not in the order of Aaron? ” “18 The former regulation is set aside because it was weak and useless 19 (for the law made nothing perfect), and a better hope is introduced, by which we draw near to God.” “22 Because of this oath, Jesus has become the guarantor of a better covenant.” “24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore he is able to save completely[c] those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them.” you see… these verses destroys your entire premise of sticking to the old testament law which as paul said “made nothing perfect”
Dana Salomon
Jesus told us that Moses wrote of Him!
Moses 5:46-47
For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me.
But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”
Theodore A. Jones
“Moses 5:46-47” What are you referencing?
Dana Salomon
Theodore A. Jones
I quoted it.
Theodore A. Jones
What you’ve quoted isn’t in question. However I’m unaware of any of the Bible’s books titled “Moses”.
Dana Salomon
Theodore A. Jones
It’s the books of the Law, some call the Pentateuch and others call Torah. First 5 books of the Bible. Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.
Dana Salomon
Theodore A. Jones
Check out Luke 24. Jesus explains how He is written about on every page:
27. And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he interpreted to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning himself.’
The feasts and appointed times show an overview of His two comings and His character is revealed by the hierarchy of laws, focused on loving God first with all your heart and soul and also loving your neighbor with truth. But every law shows His character, that’s why every Word of God is pure. Proverbs 30:5: it was lived out perfectly in wisdom, applied correctly to life’s circumstances.
Jack Johnston
Not according to Paul, but yes according to Jesus.
Alex Wong
That brings up a great point and 3 important questions to ask…. #1, was Jesus under and fulfilling the new covenant, or the old covenant (mosiac law), #2, At what point was the new covenant established, and #3, given the above 2 questions, is paul wrong and teaching heresy or is his teachings in line with the new covenant? Answering these answers any delima therein.
Jack Johnston
Alex Wong Alex, I think people think the New Covenant was a wholly different covenant which it was not. Jeremiah linked the New Covenant as having an ability to put the Law of Moses in the hearts and minds of the people to cause them to obey the Law.
I know Paul teaches that the New Covenant abrogates the Law of Moses, but that is his hijacking of the Jesus Movement. He totally repurposes the Law of Moses to that of condemnation which the Old Testament never once mentions. It was a means of sanctification of a people already in a covenant relationship with God. God had every expectation that the people could obey the stipulations of the Law.
Jesus maintained that nothing was to pass from the Law as part of his gospel of the kingdom. In fact, he said that anyone who teaches the Law is done away is least in the kingdom of God. He advises the ruler to keep the Law and do good works.
KJV Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put MY LAW in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
The New Covenant and the Law of Moses are tied together until you get to Paul and Hebrews who tries to divorce the Law of Moses from the New Covenant setting up some nebulous notion of the Law of Christ whatever that is.
Alex Wong
In essence, you are saying that Paul taught heresy, which is certainly a reason why he was so hated among the jews of his time. But if i may, some points to consider… In acts 15, the jerusalem council, jews were trying to tell the gentile believers that in order to be a follower of yeshua/jesus, they first had to become a jew, be circumcised and follow their law as Jesus did (Acts 15:5). Peter, a man who was in the inner circle of believers said “9 He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. 10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” He then went onto say ““It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20 Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.” This is the decree they officially sent to the gentile church “Greetings.
24 We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said. 25 So we all agreed to choose some men and send them to you with our dear friends Barnabas and Paul— 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 Therefore we are sending Judas and Silas to confirm by word of mouth what we are writing. 28 It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: 29 You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things.
Farewell.
Notice… only 4 rules given… Now as per the part about paul twisting or corrupting Jesus’s teachings, Peter in his second letter wrote this in the third chapter “15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.” So in this passage, Peter authenticates Pauls writings, and said it may be hard to understand and the ignorant and unstable will try to distort. He didn’t discredit or warn against, and he was taught directly by Jesus himself. He also grants paul special revelation and wisdom that God gave him… So if paul hijacked the teachings of Christ and the church, Peter gave his stamp of approval. Anywho, that perfectly discredits any notion of the continuance of the mosaic law.
Jack Johnston
Alex Wong: One question. What school of thought produced Acts? If you answer the Pauline school, then I think Acts is a sugar-coated version to make Paul look good as if he were totally accepted by the council. Since his school won the day, his version is included, but not that of the Judaizers as he calls them who were, by the way, from the Jerusalem church.
I am not convinced that the story we have is accurate and not a propaganda piece to promote Paul’s never before revealed mystery gospel.
As for Peter’s epistles, I give them little credence as I believe them to be forgeries using the name Peter only to given them apostle cred.
Alex Wong
I wont lie, your stance would be one that is tough to prove or disprove…. If you discount paul and the pauline letters, which some do, then as you said you discount acts as it was influenced by Luke, an associate with Paul. By extension you have to discount the gospel of Luke as it is part 1 of the 2 part series of books… You could also discount the gospel of Mark because he was once associate with Paul, and then they had a falling out and then reconciled towards the end of pauls ministry… That really leaves you with Matthew, which is debated as to who and how he was associated to Jesus, and if he was a disciple or just a follower and then John, whose letters, gospel and final revelations are among the last to be included in the canon of the greek new testament… If you are correct, and the pauline letters and gospel and book of acts are suspect, and the peterine letters are suspect, John would have known about this and you would expect him, being the one whom christ loved, to address these errors in theology… Address paul as a false teacher, and expose him for being the fraud he would have been, but there is no rebuke in his writings. Surely, if there was such a split in the church as you mention, Tacitus and Josephus, who were no friend of the christians, would have documented it as a failure within the Jesus movement… But there’s no way to prove that… So either the canon of scripture of the new testament is a farce created by paul like Uthman did with the earliest qurans, or it is true…
Jeremiah Waldrop
1 Cor. 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.
Varnel Watson
so YES or NO?
Alex Wong
Acts 15 should clear it up for you Troy
Jeremiah Waldrop
Troy Day You want me to lump them together as though they are all the same or do you want to clarify whether you’re refferring to moral laws, dietary laws, building laws, clothing laws, laws given to point to the work of the coming messiah, laws for reminders, environmental laws, health codes, etc.? Did you not acknowledge the distinction in the scripture I posted (1 Cor. 7:19)?
Moral law has always been binding on even non-Jewish civilizations (like Sodom and Gomorah – See Rom. 1). It’s in the conscious:
Rom. 2. 12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law 13 (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; 14 for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.
Jairus Emmett
This can be answered only after defining what the Law is. There are so many conceptions of it…
Theodore A. Jones
Even if a person obeys Sinai code doing that does not have the outcome of being declared righteous by God. God will only declare a person righteous by their faith of obeying the law that has been added regarding the sin of murdering Jesus by crucifixion.
Joseph Geranio
Nope. Jesus fulfilled all of the law for us on the cross
Theodore A. Jones
The law was fulfilled after Jesus’ ascension by him adding a law regarding the sin of murdering him. “For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” Heb. 7:12
Michael Dennis
Being “saved by grace” means you are no longer under the bondage of the law. But that doesn’t give you a license to sin. But you should have a repentant heart when you fall short.
Theodore A. Jones
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Romans 2:13
Michael Dennis
We are saved by grace, and the sacrifice of the Lamb, Jesus, the Christ. We are no longer under the law. We are saved by accepting Jesus sacrifice not by obedience to righteousness through the law. Be blessed.
Dana Salomon
Michael Dennis
So how do you identify your sin? What do you repent about? How do you know you need to repent?
Michael Dennis
The Holy Spirit will convict you.
Dana Salomon
Michael Dennis
He convicts with the word of God. Or else it is not Him.
Michael Dennis
Amen.
Varnel Watson
IF we had TO we could have done it Neil Steven Lawrence Everything else is JUST legalism
Steven Baghott
They obey the righteousness of the Law by walking after the Spirit they receive in Acts 2:4….So said Paul in Romans 8:1-4.
Susan Harris
The ACTUAL reason we cannot keep all the OT laws is that the Temple doesn’t exist any longer. But, that is a moot point as Yeshua became the sacrifice for our sin. That being said, we shouldn’t outright ignore the spirit of OT law either. They were designed to bring us closer to the Father. And, that should be the goal for all of us.
George Banagis
No. The OT conceals Christ. The NT reveals Christ.
Dennis Ravas
Yes. The 10 commandments was an old law as it hasbeen given to Moses. Jesus just strengthened it.
Tim Spangler
Dennis Ravas Show where Jesus “strengthened it”
Theodore A. Jones
Tim Spangler Heb. 7:12
Tim Spangler
Theodore A. Jones You are free to show us what it actually SAYS..but I doubt you want to
Theodore A. Jones
Tim Spangler “For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” Heb. 7:12 KJV “For when there is a change of the priesthood, there must also be a change of the law.” Heb. 7:12 NIV Two witnesses establish a fact.
Tim Spangler
Theodore A. Jones What are you saying from that Scripture?
Dennis Ravas
Tim Spangler Mt.5:17
Theodore A. Jones
Tim Spangler I am not the author of either one.
Tim Spangler
Theodore A. Jones Are you saying Jesus STRENGTHENED the commandments?
Theodore A. Jones
You claim to be the brightest and wisest creature in the universe, figure it out for yourself. As I said I am not the author of either statement and it is those statements you are contesting along with every other statement written in the scriptures. All relatives of the snake true to form ask, “Did God really say?” Have a nice evening.
RichardAnna Boyce
The Old Testament was a covenant of law, made between God and His people. It was dependent upon them keeping God’s commandments. The function of the law was to show us our sin. Its purpose in doing so was that we would see the inadequacy of our own righteousness.
Thus, the law was given in order to prepare us for the righteousness of God in Christ, as revealed in the gospel. It is our custodian to bring us to Christ (Gal.3:24). When it has succeeded in doing that, it has done the work God intended it to do.
Now, the New Testament teaches that: * We are not under law but under grace (Rom.6:14). * We are dead to the law through the body of Christ (Rom.7:4). * We have been delivered from the law (Rom.7:6). * Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to those who believe (Rom.10:4). * The law has passed away (2 Cor.3:13). * Those who are led by the Spirit are not under the law (Gal.5:18). * Christ has abolished in His flesh the law of commandments (Eph.2:15). * Christ has wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has nailed it to the cross (Col.2:14).
The Bible uses the term “the law” (with the definite article) in reference to the law God gave through Moses.
But when it uses the term “law” (without the definite article) it designates any legalistic system of works we may employ in order to gain merit with God. Christians have left both the realm of “the law” (God-given rules) and the realm of “law” (man-made rules), as the basis for relating to God.
We now live in the realm of God’s grace. Our standing with God is purely on the foundation of what He has done for us, not vice-versa.
Daniel P Campbell
No
Hingano Kaitu'u
yes only the moral law not other law
Varnel Watson
Hingano Kaitu’u Dana Salomon RichardAnna Boyce there is NO such morel unmoral law in the BIBLE where man decides what is MOral or unmoral We have the OT law a shadow and we have 2 commandments in the NT – what else is there? This is what needs to be kept all OT judizers are legalists in the sight of GOD
Theodore A. Jones
“For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.” Romans 2:13
Varnel Watson
Theodore A. Jones So do you hold as to this one and only verse in the BIBLE that a person who lives on an island and was NEVER told the GOSPEL when they die they will be judged by this law? Is this the theory behind this?
Hingano Kaitu'u
Troy Day there are three law in the bible the civil, ceremonial and moral!
Varnel Watson
Hingano Kaitu’u 2-3 verses for each of them PLS
Theodore A. Jones
Quoting Romans 2:13 is quite a chain rattler isn’t it? Buddy time does run out we all die. It is only those few who figure out what that law is Paul is referencing and obey it who will be granted a relief from serving the penalty of eternal death.
Hingano Kaitu'u
Troy Day Ceremonial Law: This type of law related to Israel’s worship. (Lev 1:1-13) The laws pointed forward to Jesus Christ and were no longer necessary after Jesus’ death and resurrection. Though we are no longer bound to them, the principles behind the ceremonial laws, to worship and love God, still apply.
Civil Law: This law dictated Israel’s daily living (Deut 24:10-11); but modern society and culture are so radically different that some of these guidelines cannot be followed specifically. The principles behind the commands are to guide our conduct.
Moral Law: The moral laws are direct commands of God. A good example is the Ten Commandments (Ex 20:1-17). The moral laws reveal the nature and will of God, and still apply to us today. We do not obey this moral law as a way to obtain salvation, but to live in ways pleasing to God
Anonymous
He who loves has fulfilled of the law. He that loveth not knoweth not God.
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey but calvinists stillDO
Anonymous
Troy Day What causes a person to believe? Why does one believe the Gospel but another turn away? What makes the difference?
We see it in Saul on the road to Damascus. As Jesus told Nicodemus, God is sovereign in salvation. We must be “born from above.”
Divine sovereign grace is foundational to the Gospel and the Christian life. Those who get the Gospel right are Calvinists.
Critics of divine sovereign grace are express the arrogant, prideful rebellion of Genesis 3, aligning with the Serpent crying, “hath God said?” REPENT!
Anonymous
Well, just read Jeremiah 31 and Hebrews 10, what does that tell you. Look at Deuteronomy 13 and see if you’re idea of Jesus and Paul scratching out the law makes sense. Besides, Jesus said, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” And Paul said, “Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Cæsar, have I offended any thing at all.” Meaning he had not violating any law, God’s law or man’s. Infact if Paul was here today, he would probably wear a neon colored t-shirt that says, “I did not say what you think I said.” In fact in Romans 7 he plainly said he was writing to those who “Know” the law. In 2 Peter 3, Peter warns those who are uneducated in the law that Paul is hard to understand and that lawless people would take advantage of them to make them think they should go to lawlessness.
Anonymous
The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. What was once a yoke and a burden that none could bear has become the perfect law of liberty. The Holy Commandments did not change, Our hearts changed. Now we love the Lord and our neighbor. The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit. “You are not under the law, but under grace.” This means we are free to live out the will of God by the power of grace through the Holy Spirit. Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid! Yeah, we establish the law.
Anonymous
The law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death. What was once a yoke and a burden that none could bear has become the perfect law of liberty. The Holy Commandments did not change, Our hearts changed. Now we love the Lord and our neighbor. The righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the spirit.
“You are not under the law, but under grace.” This means we are free to live out the will of God by the power of grace through the Holy Spirit. Do we make void the law through faith? God forbid! Yeah, we establish the law.
Anonymous
Please don’t boil a kid in its mother’s milk!
Anonymous
NO
Anonymous
yes. we are to be “like Christ” He followed the Law. He just showed us how to do it properly and not according to the “Jewish” tradition.
Anonymous
If you follow Christ and Obey the 2 commandments that He said were most important then you will easily follow the rest of the laws automatically