Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
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From 2 Timothy 4:3-4; “For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having “itching ears,” they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and will turn away from listening to truth and wander off into myths.” (ESV – all emphasis mine) There is an expression that is […]
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Varnel Watson
yeah I say unto thee Terry Wiles Scotty Searan Brody Pope
Scotty Searan
Sorta Sacrilegious talk isn’t
I gave my thoughts a few weeks ago.
No more debating on this.
You know what the Bible says about debates and debaters
Varnel Watson
Yes Scotty You are quite right Not only sacreligious but also heretical and just plain sinful. I cant but wonder if Terry ever preached on the person of the Holy Ghost back in his day when he did preach then, and how Ricky feels about it
Terry Wiles
Troy Day I have never called the Holy Spirit an “it”. Only a personal pronoun is Biblically correct.
Varnel Watson
you ever preached on the person of the Holy Ghost?
Scotty Searan
Troy Day Preached from this scripture “BE READY TO GIVE A REASON WHY YOU BELIEVE.”
Varnel Watson
Sorry the question was to Terry Wiles just the verse was for you to answer your question above
Scotty Searan
Troy Day I don’t want to around this mountain again. Terry Wiles i do not believe the Holy Spirit is an “IT”
I also don’t believe the Holy Ghost has a physical body that you can see so it is not a person. The Holy Ghost must have some physical sensation to manifest himself through.
But just because you use a personal pronoun “HE” doesn’t mean that the Holy Ghost is a person.
Louise Cummings
Troy Day sorry I had read once before. Each person he wanted to answer it. I forgot about that. I’ll try and remember to answer to only if they are addressed to me. I would like to have heard his message. Sorry I have spoken out of term.
Varnel Watson
Any anthropological definition of the Holy Ghost usually ends up in failure
Terry Wiles
Scotty Searan One does not have to have a body to be a person. One day our bodies will be in the grave yet we will still be a person. The “Word” Himself is a person who in the fullness of time a body “was prepared” for.
“Person” speaks to individuality. You seem to have stated that you do not believe the Holy Spirit has “individuality.”
We believe the Godhead consists of “Three in One.” You seem to have stated there are only two in the Godhead.
God is Spirit. One Person of the Godhead was made flesh and lived among us. The Father and The Holy Spirit are no less “persons” than the Son. Troy Day
Varnel Watson
are all dead ppl persons since they dont have bodies no more?
Terry Wiles
Troy Day The rich man seemed to have personal attributes. But some believe it was only an analogy. Choose your position and go with it.
Varnel Watson
Completely wrong analogy between man and the Spirit of God referred as RUAH/she spirit in the Hebrew text You should know that
Terry Wiles
Troy Day
Scotty Searan
Troy Day Is not the word anthropological?
Scotty Searan
Terry Wiles Are all spirits persons?
Matthew 12:43-45
43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last stateof that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.
Varnel Watson
Thank you Scotty Searan YES all spirits are personal
Terry Wiles
Scotty Searan Just look at the personal pronouns in the verses you quote. Of course they are. And each “one” of the evil ones will have their place in the lake of fire where they will “personally” experience the wages of their rebellion.
YES, all spirits are personal!
Scotty Searan
Troy Day, Terry Wiles Not personal, but a person
Terry Wiles
Scotty Searan
There are Human persons and Divine Persons and persons that are neither human nor Divine.
A person is an individual being, with self-consciousness and will, capable of feeling, choosing, and having a reciprocal relationship with other personal and social beings.
In Scripture God is revealed as an individual being — Divine.
The “Godhead” is revealed as three Divine Persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; Three In One
Each Person of the Godhead has personal names and relationship with human and other than human persons by knowing and communing with them.
Each Person of the Godhead has emotions.
Each Person of the Godhead refers to other members of the Godhead. God speaks of the Son, The Son speaks of The Father and the Holy Spirit, The Holy Spirit declares the truth about the Son.
The only Divine Person to have a Body (to our scriptural understanding) is The Son, The Word who was made flesh and dwelt among us. However, even after His resurrection, He maintained a transformed “body” and there will be “thrones” set in heaven for dignitaries human and Divine. Troy Day
Varnel Watson
anything else with be a purely personal heresy
Terry Wiles
Especially if a personal Human person denied one of the Divine Godhead persons was not a Person personally.
Varnel Watson
personally a person is a person personifying personality
Scotty Searan
Terry Wiles A person you can, but a spirit you cannot see until it desires to manifest himself in a human body, fire, cloud or dove or swine.
But a person is a human body.
The early scholars called spirits persons to promote the Trinity Godhead. Earlier Troy Daya reference to the KJV being wrong and he seems to insinuate that they were added by the KJV translators.
1 John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these threeare one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
Now if this happened in the 1600s isn’t it possible the the scholars and translators in the 300s and 400s to have misrepresented the Holy Ghost as a person in all the confusion
There was a debate between different sects of Trinitarian, Oneness and other theories and that has continued through the centuries.
I do believe in God the Father
I do believe in Jesus Christ the only begotten Son of God
I do believe in the Holy Ghost proceeding from both God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son.
They all have positions to fulfill in the Godhead.
We have tropical storms and hurricanes that are named each year and they are sometimes referred to as He or she.
Does that mean they are a person?
The tornadoes are sometimes referred to in personal pronouns does that them a person?
Scotty Searan
Terry Wiles Troy Day I do not deny the existence of the Holy Ghost as spiritual being.
A Spiritual Being needs something or someone to manifest himself in.
He is not a person unless he manifestes himself through a person.
When he manifest himself through other forms of nature he is not a person.
You don’t say a dove is a person though they can be referred to as he or she. The dove didn’t become a person just because the Holy Ghost embodied the dove.
Neither did the hogs become people because the evil spirits entered them
Louise Cummings
Yes. Acts 1:8. -John 16:1:3 – Howbeit when He,(He is a person)the Spirit Of Truth is come, He will guide you into all Truth : for He shall not speak of Himself: but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He speak: and ?He will show you things to come. ( see how many times He said He. – He is a person. And it He would shoe us things to come.
Louise Cummings
He would guide us in all Truths. That should be real plain He is a person. He would guide us. And led us. And even show us things to come.
Louise Cummings
I just wrote him in our Cummings page. Wrote on Scripture down. Yes He is a person. I have never heard anything called He that wasn’t a Person. Acts I: 8. The main one that He is a Person is John 16:13. Howbeit when He, The Spirit Of Truth is Come, He (I never heard anything except a person called He. ) He will guide you into all Truth. ( so we find He guides) for He shall not speak of Himself ; but whatsoever He shall hear, that shall He He speak. (So He hears). : and He will show you things to come. ( so He shows you things to come. )
Louise Cummings
I didn’t know the first time I answered that it was here on this same page. I apologize. But if I erased on might be the one understood better. Which ever one is better. I will erase the other, if you think it would be better.
Louise Cummings
I guess you can add my name to the list above. But what the Bible says. You can hold on to it. It never passes away.
Varnel Watson
Casper the ghost is a person why would the Holy Ghost not be?
Scotty Searan
Casper a fictitious character
Terry Wiles
Yes. It is heresy to say other.
Varnel Watson
a bit harsh? Terry Wiles
Aberdeen Chan
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.” – 1 John 5:7
Varnel Watson
How do you feel this verse relates to the OP question?
Aberdeen Chan
Troy Day We can’t refer Holy Spirit as ‘it’ for the three are one, but should refer as a person the Father and Jesus. Furthermore, Jesus addresses the Holy Spirit of truth as Him.
John 14:15-17,
The Promise of the Spirit
“If you love Me, keep My commandments. I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Counselor, that He may be with you forever: the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, for it does not see Him, neither does it know Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you, and will be in you.”
Varnel Watson
I agree with that though not sure how you see that in 1Jn
Aberdeen Chan
Troy Day When people ask about whether the Holy Spirit is a person, 1 John 5:7 and John 14:15-17 are the two main verses to be focused on to tackle such question. This is about the Trinity which relates to our faith our belief.
Varnel Watson
you said that already but why 1 John 5:7 – says nothing about a person there
Aberdeen Chan
Troy Day if the three are one, all three are person, or none of them are, because they are one.
Varnel Watson
but Scotty Searan is making the argument from anthropology that your body soul and spirit are also one yet this doesnt make your spirit alone a person. And even Terry Wiles is having troubles answering that
Aberdeen Chan
Troy Day We all know that we human is consist of our body, soul, and spirit. And we also know that water is in three states of matter, solid, liquid, and gas, in general, so please do leave those other states of matter like plasma and Bose-Einstein condensates aside.
But God is our Creator, and he has the rights to reveal what is necessary for us to get the salvation.
As we are discussing about the Trinity because the Bible mentions only the three which matter for our salvation. If there are four or five etc., we should able find out on the judgement day when we see God face to face.
As the creature which made by God, we are having difficulty to try to comprehend our Creator, and the Bible is only sufficient to bring us back to God with the right relationship.
Indeed, it is tough for us to explain base on our limted knowledge and perspective.
1 Corinthians 13:12,
“Now we see things imperfectly, like puzzling reflections in a mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God now knows me completely.”
Varnel Watson
I see your point I just dont see it made in the 1Jn verse
Aberdeen Chan
Troy Day John 14:15-17 should be the best verses for answering whether the Holy Spirit is a person, or not. And 1 John 5:7 further explain that this person – the Holy Spirit is as equal as the Father, the Word (became fresh, Jesus), because they are one single entity. These verses should be the basic for us to be able to substantial the Trinity doctrine.
Varnel Watson
Of course, but I still dont see how this verse proves what the question asks. Like stated above, is your human spirit a person? This is the question Scotty is asking
Aberdeen Chan
Troy Day I would say, yes. Because in salvation point of view, when a person’s spirit left his/her physical body due to death, that dead body isn’t the one who face the judgement. We only treat the dead person’s body in remembrance while we are still on this earth. I wonder why were Michael and Satan disputing over the body of Moses? Seem that Satan tried to impersonating Moses to influences God’s people.
That verse is just a part of the answer, if we refer all related verses in perspective, will give us a clearer picture.
Varnel Watson
Aberdeen Chan is this verse in the original Greek?
Aberdeen Chan
This verse is from the King James Version.
Varnel Watson
yes but was it in the original Greek?
Aberdeen Chan
Troy Day Yes, this verse is in the original Greek. However, there is an issue about the Johannine Comma (aka Comma Johanneum) in the 1 John 5:7-8.
Varnel Watson
No the verse is actually NOT in the original Greek http://probible.net/1-john-57/
Aberdeen Chan
Troy Day I’m not a Greek Bible reader, I can’t tell.
https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8
https://www.gotquestions.org/Comma-Johanneum.html
Aberdeen Chan
Troy Day But who has the original Greek text ever in the history?
http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/the-father-the-word-and-the-holy-ghost-in-1-john-57
Varnel Watson
verse was not there to begin with – KJV is wrong
Aberdeen Chan
Troy Day I’m sorry to hear that. Maybe the ‘KJV Only’ Christians might have something to say on this.
Varnel Watson
pls inform yourself pls
The Comma Johanneum is missing in Erasmus’ first edition of 1516 from which KJV was later adopted http://textus-receptus.com/wiki/1_John_5:7
John 5:7 belongs in the King James Bible and was preserved by faithful Christians. But the passage was removed from many Greek manuscripts, because of the problems it seemed to cause.
http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/1john57.asp
Russ Conner
Yes He is.
Bobbi Goff Klein
Someone said something to me a couple of weeks ago. They did not know what was going on in my life. They said The Holy Spirit has not left you. But, the Holy spirit has left the church. I asked them to explain, they said the leaders of your church has left The Holy Spirit. Them telling me that has lifted my heart. I thought I personally had done something for The Holy Spirit to leave. I needed that word.
Varnel Watson
even IF leaders of your church have left The Holy Spirit this does not mean that The Holy Spirit has left the church
Bobbi Goff Klein
This person was saying the leaders of the church has abandoned the Holy Spirit. When the Holy Spirit starts to move, one will start talking. They don’t let the Spirit to continue. That’s the best way I can tell it. I excepted what this person said to me. I started watching the services and it was true.
Varnel Watson
even IF leaders of your church have left The Holy Spirit this does not mean that The Holy Spirit has left the church
Terry Wiles
Scotty Searan And that is why it is time to bring this conversation to an end. Made up minds that reject historical and academically sound evidence continue to believe even the earth is flat. Troy Day.
So with that I wish you all well.
Terry Wiles
Scotty Searan you have continually denied the existence of more than two Divine spiritual beings.
Scotty Searan
Terry Wiles I have not denied the existence of the Holy Ghost as spiritual being. But He does not have a body as God the Father or Jesus Christ the Son of God
You have not read my statements clearly.
I do believe in the 4th man who was like the Son of God
How did Nebuchadnezzar know about the Son of God.
If this is the Holy Ghost and not the Son of God because of the word like.
The Holy Ghost is present in the body of a person which i have always said the Holy Ghost has to have something he can manifest himself with and it does have to be a person.
Was the LORD mentioned in Genesis 18 God, Jesus Christ or the Holy Ghost?
Remember later on in Exodus God told Moses that no man had looked on His face and lived.
One other question was Jesus Christ a Spirit before He was physically made?
Is it possible that this was the Holy Ghost becoming a person to manifest himself in.
Could God have put the Holy Ghost from God in a person for that appointed time.
We know the Holy Ghost comes from God and Jesus Christ the Son
Varnel Watson
So if he is visible he is a person then?
Scotty Searan
Troy Day I did not say the Holy Ghost.
The Holy Ghost must have vessel whom He can manifest himself in or with.
One more time God has a body, Jesus Christ has a body, the Holy Ghost is the Spirit coming out from both GOD and JESUS but has no body,yet the Holy Ghost can manifest himself through the body of a person or some other entity
God and Jesus Christ each has a body dedicated for themselves
The Holy Ghost is the conduit between the two where by they have fellowship but he has no dedicated body for himself so he is not a person with flesh such as God and Jesus.
Scotty Searan
Terry Wiles Is this not scriptural proof and Stephens dying testimony that God has a body?Exodus 33:20-23
20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
Varnel Watson
Scotty Searan I am truly lost in your Trinitarianism If you did not say the Holy Ghost, what are we all talking about here?
Scotty Searan
Troy Day I left off part of what I intended to say (was not part of the Godhead). I edited the comment.
Scotty Searan
The use of pronouns does not make an object a person.
They were having this debate in the 300’s and 400’s and the trinitarians were the ones that instituted the Holy Ghost as a Person. A spirits needs an entity to work through.
Varnel Watson
are you now saying the Spirit of God has no entity to work through? – the Trinity is His entity which makes him a person there’s the whole debate if one gets it
Varnel Watson
Scotty Searan following the lead of pastor bishop doctor reverend Terry Wiles I will go on a record here and say that your view is fundamentally wrong on this issue and several others. If you would like to discuss it openly I can go on and explain why…
Scotty Searan
Go on i will listen.
Varnel Watson
I know;
Ron Culbreth
Don’t mean to burst anyone’s bubble, and yes, I believe the Holy Spirit is a He but, can anyone tell me why pneuma has a feminine ending.
Varnel Watson
not pneuma but the Heb. ruah – already addressed above Pneuma is neuter BTW Scotty Searan