FEATURED, theology June 6, 2018

Did the devil sin before Adam?

Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars

Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected

| PentecostalTheology.com

               
 
Dave Yes he sinned before Adam. He was kicked out of heaven before he used the serpent to tempt Eve.He sinned before the 1/3 of the heavenly host rebelled and were expelled during the war with Michael and his angels.Isaiah 14:13-15How art thou fallen from heaven, “speaking of Lucifer, son of the morning!”For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
Levi Chavis LOL, really David?? There was never any Lucifer angel. You’ve got to quit telling people all of this nonsense. Ezekiel 28:11-1911 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:“‘You were the seal of perfection,    full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.13 You were in Eden,    the garden of God;every precious stone adorned you:    carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,    topaz, onyx and jasper,    lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.Your settings and mountings were made of gold;    on the day you were created they were prepared.14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,    for so I ordained you.You were on the holy mount of God;    you walked among the fiery stones.15 You were blameless in your ways    from the day you were created    till wickedness was found in you.16 Through your widespread trade    you were filled with violence,    and you sinned.So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,    and I expelled you, guardian cherub,    from among the fiery stones.17 Your heart became proud    on account of your beauty,and you corrupted your wisdom    because of your splendor.So I threw you to the earth;    I made a spectacle of you before kings.18 By your many sins and dishonest trade    you have desecrated your sanctuaries.So I made a fire come out from you,    and it consumed you,and I reduced you to ashes on the ground    in the sight of all who were watching.19 All the nations who knew you    are appalled at you;you have come to a horrible end    and will be no more.’”Wow, you should really do your history of Tyre and Sidon and why God destroyed both of those kingdoms. Christ even mentions them in Luke 10. SMH
Levi Chavis And another thing, the Watchers fell from their heavenly host in Jared’s day, Enoch’s father. And Satan’s real name is Mastema, not Lucifer. Lucifer simply means, “Morning Star”. They’re even mentioned in Genesis 6, you know, the “Sons of God”. David, I would’ve thought that with your “vast knowledge” of God’s Word, you’d at least know some of these things. LOL
Dave Verse 4 Levi ChavisWhat is a cherub?😎
Dave And another thing, just so we play by the same rules.If you can’t get this correct “from a previous conversation – Genesis 4:1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.”Do you think I am going to listen to you in anything?By the way the only reason I did not answer you on our conversation from the end of DEC to Jan is that it dropped off my feed .I told you,You aren’t that good.I am not going anywhere.
Levi Chavis David, lol. God told Ezekiel to go tell the King of Tyre that message, lol. Not an angel. You really do have a hard time understanding simple things.
Dave Lol
Dave Levi, great entertainment
Dave Symbolic,  I love how you are so limited in your understand and want to come across as all knowing.
Dave Tell me Levi ChavisYou stated on the other link that because I could not explain the Trinity  (Godhead) I did not believe it. If I did believe it then I could explain it.I did so, and I explained it beautifully for you.Then Levi you say you believe the Holy Ghost is Jesus’ Father  (how did Mary conceive with simply His power overshadowing her?)How did God Self-exist before any and everything?Oh go ahead my brother, answer God’s question to Job in chapters 38 – the end of 41.Let me go pop some popcorn and get a soft drink.This is going to be fun.
Levi Chavis Dave, your man-taught ignorance has been shown too many times. There are multiple verses in Isaiah 45 where God plainly states “There is none beside me”. The Godhead dwells in Christ bodily David. All power in heaven, and on earth, reside in Christ. Even a child can understand that. There aren’t three people gods, only One God. SMH, go eat some popcorn, lol.
Dave See there you go proving you don’t read.I was not man taught,Maybe you should have been
Dave Lol Levi,  you are so fun to talk yo…So who told cain, “I AM YOUR FATHER”.😇
Levi Chavis Shhhh, you should stop making a fool of yourself David. Other people can read this thread, lol.
Dave Oh, I know They canI am counting on it.That is why I want you in your words stating the is no Trinity. That is,why I want you saying in your words Cain is not Adams son.That is why I want you to say in your words that Cain is the murderer from the beginning. PleasePlease my brother, continue.Let’s share this on the other pages.I am not ashamed.
Ricky Grimsley Levi Chavis how was the king of tyre in the garden of eden?
Levi Chavis Ricky, the port kingdom of Tyre was said to be one of the richest in the Old Testament through trade with Israel and other countries. Their betrayal of Israel was their downfall when they were selling the Israelite children into slavery. If you go back to Ezekiel 26, God tells the king of Tyre that he will send Nebuchadnezzar to destroy Tyre, in detail. The ancient port city of Sidon was also destroyed over their betrayal of Israel. All of this information can be easily researched to be verified. Hope this helps you my friend. 😊
Levi Chavis Ricky, I forgot to include Ezekiel 28:1-19Ezekiel 28:1-191The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:“‘In the pride of your heart    you say, “I am a god;I sit on the throne of a god    in the heart of the seas.”But you are a mere mortal and not a god,    though you think you are as wise as a god.3 Are you wiser than Daniel?    Is no secret hidden from you?4 By your wisdom and understanding    you have gained wealth for yourselfand amassed gold and silver    in your treasuries.5 By your great skill in trading    you have increased your wealth,and because of your wealth    your heart has grown proud.6 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:“‘Because you think you are wise,    as wise as a god,7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,    the most ruthless of nations;they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom    and pierce your shining splendor.8 They will bring you down to the pit,    and you will die a violent death    in the heart of the seas.9 Will you then say, “I am a god,”    in the presence of those who kill you?You will be but a mortal, not a god,    in the hands of those who slay you.10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised    at the hands of foreigners.I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:“‘You were the seal of perfection,    full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.13 You were in Eden,    the garden of God;every precious stone adorned you:    carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,    topaz, onyx and jasper,    lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.Your settings and mountings were made of gold;    on the day you were created they were prepared.14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,    for so I ordained you.You were on the holy mount of God;    you walked among the fiery stones.15 You were blameless in your ways    from the day you were created    till wickedness was found in you.16 Through your widespread trade    you were filled with violence,    and you sinned.So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,    and I expelled you, guardian cherub,    from among the fiery stones.17 Your heart became proud    on account of your beauty,and you corrupted your wisdom    because of your splendor.So I threw you to the earth;    I made a spectacle of you before kings.18 By your many sins and dishonest trade    you have desecrated your sanctuaries.So I made a fire come out from you,    and it consumed you,and I reduced you to ashes on the ground    in the sight of all who were watching.19 All the nations who knew you    are appalled at you;you have come to a horrible end    and will be no more.’”I hope this helps clarify some things for you Ricky, have a good day and God Bless.
Dave You did not answer me Levi, which is no surprise. You never do. You said that Lucifer was “the anointed cherub” vs 14, yet you said he was no angel,,,,I ask again What is a cherub?And oh my oh myPlease look at your verse 13, he was where?Please keep talking. You are proving me correct.Thank you.He can be taught.
Levi Chavis Once again David, you miss the obvious. Ezekiel 28:1-2, and then 11-12; God tells Ezekiel to go to the King of Tyre and say to him… that was spoken to a man, not an angel. Tsk tsk tsk, when will you ever learn that you really don’t know anything?
Dave How was the king of tyre in the garden?For some one that wants to read the scriptures as written, Genesis 4:1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. Hello,  where are you brother?If you are going to hold to the black and white text, Read Genesis 4 : 1 for me.As I said you, you operate by one set of guidelines and “try” to hold others to a differing set of guidelines.To quote you, I am waiting.Genesis 4:1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.
Levi Chavis David, poor ignorant David, please stop making a fool of yourself.
Dave Levi ChavisWhy did you adjust your reference to Eze 28:1-12?Before you referenced verses 13 and 14.Why did you leave off Ezekiel 28:13-14Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.Please explain your sudden shift. Since you posted it and now are backing up. How is the King of Tyre a cherub?You never answered what a cherub is? Why? How was this man back in Eden and Eden was destroyed during the flood of Genesis 6-9?Your theology has major holes.Twisted, distorted Levi.
Levi Chavis You’ll notice that I included 28:1-19 a few comments up when I was talking to Ricky, SMH. There you go again, not paying attention.
Dave Yes up a few comments,  but not here. So how was this man the King of Tyre a man AND an anointed cherub?How was he back in the Garden of God – Eden?Your reference,  please explain. I will wait.
Levi Chavis My reference was already posted. Ezekiel 28:1-19, God told Ezekiel to go talk to a man, period. I know that hard to understand, but it is right there in plain black and white English. There’s nothing to have to explain.
Ricky Grimsley Levi Chavis well the first part is obviously about a man but how can verses 13 and on apply to a man?
Ricky Grimsley It seem more practical that ezekiel is talking to the king directly but also addressing satan as the spiritual authority there the same as daniel would have the prince of grecia or persia. Imo
Dave You see Ricky GrimsleyLevi is very evasive when it is his turn to justify his words and stance with black and white of scripture.
Levi Chavis Ricky, please read verse 11 and 12 again. God tells Ezekiel to go tell the king of Tyre what was said. Those aren’t my words or opinions, it’s God’s Word. Let’s not look at what God might be saying, instead, what he is saying.
Dave Evasive yet and still.A simple answer would suffice Levi Chavis.We can wait.
Levi Chavis How am I being evasive, lol? It’s apparent that you don’t know what it means and you’re looking for answers. Yes, a cherub is a type of guardian, they were at the entrance to eden, as well as on top of the Ark of the Covenant. And it is possible that is  why God chose to call this King of Tyre a “cherub”. Tyre and Sidon were close allies in trade and labor with Israel during the time of David and Solomon. They helped build Solomon’s Temple, as well as being excellent seamen. They helped Solomon gather gold from other countries around the known world. Their betrayal of Israel is why God’s wrath was so great towards Tyre. The reason God destroyed Tyre was because Tyre enslaved the children of Judah and sold them to the Greeks for profit. You will find that about the slaves trade in the Book of Joel.
Ricky Grimsley Levi Chavis i realize he is talking to a man. I just believe he is talking to satan as well because the latter part cannot apply to a man only. Like when jesus told peter “get thee behind me satan”.
Levi Chavis God was not talking to an angel, because:-angels are not a “Son of man”(verse 2). -angels do not sit on a throne of a God in the heart of the seas(verse 2).-angels are not mere mortals(verse3).-angels cannot gain wealth(verse4).-angels do not great skill in trading(verse 5).-angels are not flesh so that a foreigner’s sword can pierce their shining splendor(verse7).-angels cannot die a violent death at the hands of men(verses 8,9,10)-angels are not adorned by precious stones(verse 13).-angels are not involved in widespread trade(verse 16).-angels are not made a spectacle of before kings(verse 17).-angels are not involved in dishonest trade(verse 18).-angels do not have sanctuaries to desecrate(verse 18).And last, but not least, if you will go to Ezekiel 28:14, which I will provide so you can follow along…Ezekiel 28:1414 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,    for so I ordained you.You were on the holy mount of God;    you walked among the fiery stones.You were anointed “AS”a guardian cherub. I hope by breaking it down that you will be able to somehow understand what God was saying to the King of Tyre.
Ricky Grimsley In eden?
Levi Chavis Ricky, cherubs were representation of guardians of sacred things. For example: there were two placed at the entrance of Eden. There were also wooden images of two cherubs overlayed with gold on top of the Ark of the Covenant. There were also wooden carvings of cherubs on the outer corners to the entrance into Solomon’s Temple.
Ricky Grimsley When was the king of tyre in eden or on the holy mountain of god. Also it says he was created. Are men created by God or are we formed from something?
Levi Chavis I can do some research on it for you Ricky because it doesn’t really specify which king that God was referring to in Ezekiel 28. I do know that cherubs were never anointed, only men. In truth, we are all part of God’s creation, are we not?
Ricky Grimsley We arent created by God until we are a “new creation”. Otherwise made by a biological process instead of being created from nothing like the angels.
Dave No Levi ChavisCherub is a level/type of angel..Try again
Levi Chavis David, a cherub is an angel, not disputing that. Their purpose was to be guards or guardians. SMH
Dave Levi ChavisSo angels are not adorned with precious stones? You know for a fact that no angels or heavenly beings are?So which man was created with ” Ezekiel 28:13 the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.”?.You know,It is the second part of your “adorned with precious stones”Angels do not take part in wide spread trade verse 16 You seem to have forgotten Matt 4 and Luke 4Matthew 4:8-9Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them; And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me. Verse 17 spectacle, Colossians 2:15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Man I wish I had the time to pick your post apart the way it deserves to be dissected.
Dave Levi ChavisCherub,,Now we are getting somewhere.So how was the King of Tyre in the Lord’s garden?Let’s be clear, God told Ezekiel to specify Eden.
Levi Chavis David, what you just posted further proves your lack of knowledge. Not one place in God’s Word does it says that an angel is “adorned with precious stones”, period. And once again, God was talking to a man in Ezekiel 28. -Matthew 4:8-9 8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”-Luke 4:5-65 The devil led him up to a high place and showed him in an instant all the kingdoms of the world. 6 And he said to him, “I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to.Colossians 2:11-15 is talking about the baptism in Christ, not the fall of the kingdom of Tyre. -Colossians 2:11-1511 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.SMH at you once again David. How much more of a fool do you want to make yourself look like in front of your constituents?? Just move on before your friends see you doing this to yourself.
Ricky Grimsley What do you think the high priests garments were based on. Perhaps because we took lucifer’s place?
Dave Colossians 2:15 shows Christ made a spectacle and open show of the Fallen angels that you said never happened. Levi Chavis, you did say it never happened didn’t you.I let you read your own post and scripture references
Levi Chavis Who was a murderer in the beginning? Cain. In all truth, Eve was the first to sin, not the serpent. Adam willfully took on sin so he could save his bride, just as Christ did for us. Remember, by one man sin entered the world, and by one man sin was taken away. Hope this helps you.Romans 5:12-21
Dave Is this the same Cain that you said was the seed of satan and not the offspring of Adam? Is that the Cain we are discussing? No the murderer from the beginning isJohn 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.LolOh I love talking to you.Please stop, oh man my sides are hurting from you making me laugh.
Dave Ouch, that must hurt….Scriptures please
Levi Chavis Cain is not part of the lineage of Adam. After Abel died, Adam and Eve had Seth. Genesis 4:2525 Adam made love to his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, saying, “God has granted me another child in place of Abel, since Cain killed him.” God’s Word plainly says that Eve was the mother of all living, but it doesn’t say that Adam was the father of all living. Cain was the serpent’s seed. Try and keep up David, I know it’s difficult for you.
Dave LolGenesis 4:1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.Levi ChavisLeLeviLevi CALevi can’tLevi can’t read
Dave Lol
Dave Please continue
Levi Chavis Okay okay, I’ll ask this one last question David: was Adam wicked?
Levi Chavis Waiting…
Dave When?Before or after he (adam) chose to disobey God?Qualify your question.
Levi Chavis David, was Adam wicked, yes or no?
Levi Chavis Well?
Dave Levi, qualify your question. Before or after he willingly disobeyed? Wicked, doesn’t God look at sin and disobedience as wickedness?
Levi Chavis was Adam wicked, yes or no?
Dave Qualify
Dave Lol
Dave Could the Messiah come through Adam,?No the Messiah had to come through Eve’s seed,So was, Adam wicked in God’s sight as God handed out Judgements?
Dave Answer please
Levi Chavis You truly are simple-minded. Was Adam ever called a wicked person in God’s Word?
Dave Stop stalling
Levi Chavis Yes or no
Dave Hello
Dave You there
Dave Scripture please
Levi Chavis Lol, you can’t even answer a simple “yes or no” question.
Dave Was Adam ever called righteous in God’s Word?
Dave Go ahead, look it up
Dave Can you answer the question
Levi Chavis Answer the question and stop diverting David. Was Adam called wicked anywhere in God’s Word? Yes or no.
Dave You see Levi ChavisYou refuse,  always refuse to answer.You are stuck in your linear thinking and refuse to even examine the possibility that you don’t know it all.You can’t give me spiritual advice.You are in error before you leave Genesis chapter 4.
Levi Chavis Still waiting on that simple “yes”or “no” answer David…
Dave And I am waiting for your answer.I don’t answer to you.If you can’t answer, then you will wait for my answer.
Dave Yup, I heard that about you.You refuse to answer but think you can control the conversation. Not just this one.I saw on another post the other day where you replied to a lady that, “I was finished talking to you”.Yeah, I am waiting.
Dave Good night, I have had too much fun for today
Levi Chavis This is why I laugh at you calling yourself a preacher. You can’t even answer simple question concerning God’s Word. You know that Adam was never called “wicked” anywhere in God’s Word, but the serpent was called “the wicked one”. -1 John 3:1212 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.Christ came from the lineage of Adam, not Eve. Once again David it’s been shown that you don’t have a clue about what God’s Word says. You should really stop calling yourself a preacher.
Levi Chavis You’ve dismissed yourself, thank you for showing your constituents that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
Dave Lol,You say you know the word.Genesis 3:15And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.When ever else is the seed from a lady?Why did Christ have to be virgin born.Lol.Your Bible reference says nothing about Adam,  for that matter Eve either.Yet again you take a verse and place your own interpretation that relates in noway to that verse.Do you even know how to rightly divide the Word of TRUTH?You are,sad,, hilarious but sad.Night….
Levi Chavis Once again, you’ve dismissed yourself David. Once again, it specifies 2 seeds. As far as Eve’s seed; she and Adam were of One flesh. SMH, you really need to go back and read God’s Word and pray for guidance for God. You are truly ignorant when it comes to God’s Word. You should go back to simple science with your answer. Who carries the seed: the man or the woman? SMH
Sammy Ford I never looked at this passage of scripture before and it does show a difference of a seed between thy seed and her seed. Everyone know that Jesus was born of a virgin to be perfect without spot or blemish. He was of God
Levi Chavis Joshua, David is willfully ignorant. He knows what God’s Word clearly states in black and white, but it doesn’t fit in with his man-made doctrine. He even quoted Genesis 3:15 as a reference to try to prove his doctrine, and it blew up in his face. It just shows that he doesn’t know the truth. Only God can open his eyes.
Dave Joshua SakalHe was of God. He was God.John 1:1-14In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.This transitions me back to another conversation Levi Chavis And I have yet to finish. Levi,His do you think Gen 3:15 blow up in my face?It proves my point.You think not because you twist it,  just like you can’t handle Gen 4:1 ,,,,,Talk about ignorant,  but in your case it is not willingly.You are just too simply to read the black and white.Allow me, Genesis 4:1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.Ok for the “see spot run” learners;Adam knew “had sex with” Eve, his wife “made for him and given to him by God”She conceived “after enjoying her husband without limits”She bare “as a result of that fun time with her man”She bare Cain.God that has bound to hurt. SeeSee spotSee spot run…I so hope you get the basics of Genesis so we can move forward.
Levi Chavis You only make a fool out of yourself David when you keep talking. Other  people have already said that even they can even see the obvious, lol. I really do feel sorry for you keeping on the way you do. You’re like a mortally wounded bull in a bullfight, lol.
Sammy Ford Levi and David do you guys know each other personally or something?
Dave No,  never met him.He decided to comment on a post I was on and started trying to communicate using hypocritical guidelines.He likes to give questions demanding answers while refusing to answer questions presented to him.He likes to hold a person to black and white scripture and yet veer off of the same to make his stance.Ask Levi Chavis who was the father of Cain?Ask him what it means in Genesis when Eve’s eyes where opened,  ask him what he takes her being beguiled means….I will let his words expose him for who he is.
Sammy Ford Levi gave a verse that said that Cain was of the wicked one. David gave a verse that said god would put enmity between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman. I’m not choosing sides between you to but it is pretty clear that Cain was the son of the serpent. I did go back and read that eve was called the mother of all living and it did not say that Adam was the father of all just like Levi said. I’m not educated in the Bible but I can see what is says when I read it.
Sammy Ford You guys are kind of rude toward each other. That’s why I asked if you new each other.
Levi Chavis Thankfully, no, I don’t know David personally. I do admit that I have been a little coarse towards David and for that I apologize. I still believe that David has no place as a preacher because he really doesn’t know what God’s Word says. Thank you for being truthful in your previous comments. Remember, let God be true, and all men liars.
Levi Chavis Lol, David, how do I give scriptures straight out of God’s Word and not give an ounce of personal opinion, and yet, somehow I make a stance?? Lol, you don’t make any sense whatsoever. The truth is, you don’t understand the plain back and white that’s staring you in the face. The only excuse you can make is that I somehow “make a stance” when I present God’s Word. Please, stop making a fool of yourself.
Dave JoshuaThen explainGenesis 4:1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord. Unless you are separating spiritual son’s and sons of the flesh, which Levi to date has not done. If that is your stance,  we all were satan’s sons before salvation.Also Cain would have to be compared between God’s child and satan’s since Cain was conceived in chapter 4 and the spirit fall and change of Adam occurred in chapter 3.
Dave Joshua SakalLevi also attest that Eve had sexual relations with satan and he bases that on one definition of “beguiled” due to the belief that she would have had no other way to have her eyes open to being naked.Joshua, do you see that in the black and white of scripture?
Sammy Ford I don’t understand where you get that Satan was the serpent. The serpent was a beast of the fields. I went and looked up the word beguiled and it means seduction. We are all men here, we all know that to have a child you have sex. When there is a seed of a man that means his child. Yes I can see black and white of the verses and yes the Bible is right.
Dave Beguiled has more than one meaning.Being seduced is not always nor only sexually.Here is a New Testament exampleColossians 2:18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,From beguiled in Gen 3:135377 nasha’ naw-shaw’ a primitive root; to lead astray, i.e. (mentally) to delude,or (morally) to seduce:–beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly* notice it said morally,  not necessarily sexually. Not all koral failures are sexual in nature.I guess we underestimate the power of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.What was God’s question in response to how Adam found out that he and Eve were naked?Genesis 3:9-12And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.God asked, “who TOLD you”?Then He/God asked, “hast thou eaten of the tree”?Simple obvious question would be, “have you had sex”? But that never came up did it?Why not?It is perfectly clear,  unless the one reading it is just beguiled themselves and wants to fantasize about Eve making out with “the serpent”.Was satan the father of Cain?Genesis 4:1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.Is that black and white?
Sammy Ford I went back and read all of the previous comments between David and Levi. It looks like David is more about trying to prove Levi wrong than really seeing what is wrote in the Bible.
Levi Chavis David, the word “sex” didn’t come around until the late 14th century. And it wasn’t a popular word to say in mixed company either. That’s why is simply said that a man “knew” their wife. Also, what does Colossians 2:18 have to do with Adam and Eve? Lol, I get it, the scripture has the word “beguile” in it. Wow, way to be observant David. 😂😂😂
Levi Chavis And you’re exactly right Joshua, David is so blind in his pride that he can’t even see the plain scripture written in front of him.
Levi Chavis David, that must really sting coming from someone other than me… 🐝
Sammy Ford I didn’t say that to get in the middle of your argument Levi
Levi Chavis Joshua Sakal, I know, but David doesn’t take criticism very well, especially when it’s true.
Dave You got my point Joshua Sakal and Levi ChavisSince hardly any of Levi’s post are kjv.So you two are so simple minded to realize that sex, intimate,  know, knew, etc are the same meaning. But you can pull one meaning of several for beguiled. OkLeviWhere does it say satan KNEW,eve.LolYou clowns.
Dave Levi ChavisCriticism And yet you can’t answer questiins.So much for a self professing person that can’t handle simple questions..Joshua Sakal Col 2:18 shows that words not only sex can and does defile.You want to stay OT,FineYou seemed to have willing sidesteppedBeguiled has more than one meaning.Being seduced is not always nor only sexually.Here is a New Testament exampleColossians 2:18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,From beguiled in Gen 3:135377 nasha’ naw-shaw’ a primitive root; to lead astray, i.e. (mentally) to delude,or (morally) to seduce:–beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly* notice it said morally,  not necessarily sexually. Not all moral failures are sexual in nature.I AM SORRY, you prefer the word KNOW or KNEW..would that be covered in knowledge learned at the tree?I guess you underestimate the power of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.What was God’s question in response to how Adam found out that he and Eve were naked?Genesis 3:9-12And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.God asked, “who TOLD you”?Then He/God asked, “hast thou eaten of the tree”?I believe the questions show what happened considering God was there and you weren’t. Was satan the father of Cain?Genesis 4:1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.Is that black and white?I wonder why you skipped it?Lol
Sammy Ford A clown keeps copying the same thing over and over again without being able to make a point. You are the clown David. Beguiled does have more than one meaning but that doesn’t change the fact that eve was led astray from Adam her husband. You seem hung up on Levi and you miss other things about Adam and Eve. Why does it say in verse 16 that her desire will be to her husband? A woman’s desire is pretty clear what it is when it is away from her husband. You are the simple one David not me and not Levi
Levi Chavis Lol, SMH yet again at you David. You just can’t grasp it, can you?
Sammy Ford I know what the Bible says and David needs to go read it some more. I’m not being rude but it is true.
Dave And you guys need to leave your extra-biblical sources alone.
Sammy Ford Dave  you are a disgrace. BLASPHEMER!
Joe Absher I hope this isn’t a trick question.The devil possessed a snake and tempted these two innocent people. So I’m thinking the devil sinned first. I’m not at smart as you but it seems simple enough? In the city we sometimes ask, “what’s really going on?”
Dave Exactly
Troy Day Most later posts by this poster are in fact trick questions…
Brian Crisp Satan sinned first.
Troy Day Neverthless, Satan does not define original sin
Levi Chavis What does God’s Word say about how sin entered the world?
Levi Chavis Romans 5:12-2112 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Sammy Ford I never read those verses. that is some good stuff
Ricky Grimsley Sin entered our world through adam but sin entered the world before through satan. Thats one of the reasons i believe in the gap theory.
Levi Chavis Can you show a single scripture to back up that theory? If not, it’s just an opinion and nothing more than a fable.
Ricky Grimsley Those ezekiel passages you quoted are about a pre-adamite lucifer. Not really any doubt.
Levi Chavis Ricky Grimsley, scriptures please, 😊
Ricky Grimsley Only lucifer, God, eve, and adam were in the garden of eden?Ezekiel 28:13-19 KJVS[13] Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. [14] Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so : thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. [15] Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. [16] By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. [17] Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. [18] Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. [19] All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.
Levi Chavis Lucifer is not mentioned in the garden Ricky. You’re assuming instead of paying attention to what God’s Word actually says. One more time, in Ezekiel 28, God tells Ezekiel to go to the king of Tyre and tell him… not Lucifer, but a man. Even you admitted earlier that it is obvious that Ezekiel was talking to a man. You’re confusing yourself with assumptions and what-if’s. Read God’s Word as it is written. Nowhere in Genesis in the garden is Lucifer mentioned, ever. The prophecy of Ezekiel was thousands of years later and was based on things to come. God said what he “will” do to the king of Tyre, hence, a prophecy.
Ricky Grimsley So again how was the king of tyre in eden?
Levi Chavis I’m doing some research for you, will let you know.
Levi Chavis Ricky Grimsley, this is what I have found so far. I want to say up front that these are not my opinions, rather, the opinions of historians of the Old Testament. I checked multiple credible sources and this is a general acceptance of what God said to the King of Tyre. ‘You were in Eden’The King of Tyre seemed to claim a position like that of Adam before his fall, perfect in beauty and wisdom, the lord of the creation. And in that fancied Eden he stood, so he thought, not like Adam, “naked and ashamed”, but like one of the Cherubim that guarded the gates. It is also mentioned the reference to Eden was the actual splendor and beauty of his kingdom. ‘Every precious stone’All the stones named are found on the list of gems on the breastplate of the high priest, less 3 stones. ‘The workmanship of thy tabret and pipes’This was a mass agreement that this was in reference to women and music used for a festival gifted by the Sidonian king. Women with timbrels, harps, and flutes, such as harem, were brought from all parts of Greece. Some however believe that this was a reference to actual instruments that were made of gold and set with jewels. ‘In the day that thou was created’This points to the time of the king’s enthronement or coronation. It was then that he appeared in his supreme magnificence. I hope this helps in some way. I will do some more research on the matter. It is in fact referring to a man and not an angel in Ezekiel 28. Go to previous chapters and read how God talks about this King of Tyre. God Bless my friend, I’ll update this when I get more info. 😊
Dave Scripture please,Or are you content to use extra-biblical sources to form your theories and claim black and white bible reading?Please continue, Reaching for the popcorn and soft drink.
Louise Cummings It was our Sunday School last Sunday. And Sunday a week ago. Was great taking us even back into Habakkuk, showing us Faith was before the Law. Because the Bible said when the Lord spoke to Abraham to pick up and go to the land that He would show him. Abraham and his father served Pagan gods. But the Bible said By Faith Abraham started on the journey the Lord was showing him. And the Law didn’t come along until years later until Moses came along. Then The Lord gave the Law to Moses.S Faith was before the Law came along. The Law came to show us what sin was.  That was good points you brought out.
Louise Cummings A lot of people believe in the gap theory. I can understand why they would think. And you are Wright sin was in the world. But people didn’t understand it was sin until the Law was given. To tell us what sin was. God gave us Laws or rules to go by through the Law.
Levi Chavis I don’t get it, God’s Word clearly states that sin entered into the world through Adam. But somehow, according to a man-made theory, sin was already present in the world, even though God’s Word says otherwise. SMH, this is exactly the kind of stuff that Paul was talking about…2 Timothy 4:3-43 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Dave Sin entered the human race through Adam. Sin entered creation through Satan, the Father of it.
Levi Chavis Scripture to back that up that Satan is the Father of sin, good luck finding it because it doesn’t exist. Just like a trinity god, lol.
Dave You want scripture,You can’t even understand black and white, How’s that satan being Cain’s father working for ya Gen 4:1?Satan the father of sin…Let’s see John 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. So #1Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning,* is murder a sin?Did Jesus not say that it was/he was from the beginning?Beginning of what?When was the beginning?#2 and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him.* no truth means lying.  Is lying sinning?He chose not to abide/remain in the Truth.He turned into the opposite of Truth.And Jesus said this was their father, the father of sinners, the initiator of sin.#3 When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. * straight forward and crystal clear.You also need to look at 1 John 3:8-10 that restates what is pointed out from John 8:44.And 1 John 2:13-14 Paying attention to “The Wicked One”.
Levi Chavis You have once again made yourself irrelevant David. It does not say that Satan was the father of sin. You have shown everyone on this forum as well as the COG open forum that you are willfully ignorant. There is nothing else for me to talk to you about. Only God can open your blinded eyes. Good bye
Dave And you are blind to say that sin entered the WORLD through Adam. Sin entered the human race by adam.If your theory is correct then Adam is the father of sin and satan’s failure would be attributed to adam.So then if satan failed due to Adam,Can he be redeemed? Those effected by Adam (the first Adam) and his sin are redeemable by Jesus  (the second Adam).
Dave By context and the Greek meaning of world in your referenceSin entered into the human realm and mankindRomans 5:10-14For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.Sin caused death and death passed upon all men.Wow
Sammy Ford You really can’t understand can you David when romans 5 said that sin entered into the WORLD by one man who was Adam. You use to much theory and not enough Bible. I feel bad for you because you dont understand the Bible when it stares at you in the face. Romans chapter 8 says that one day all of the creation will be liberated from the bondage of decay which is the curse of sin. I am starting to see that Levi is right about you
Dave Lol
Dave Let me put it this way since you Joshua Sakal and Levi want to get caught up on two points,1) Romans 8 says sin entered the world through Adam. Levi, and apparently you are using that to say that Adam sinned before satan.Sin was not “applied” to the world under satan until Adam sinned because Adam had been given the dominion over creation.When Adam sinned he gave the dominion of creation over to satan, the prince and power of the air.Is that more clear and better phrased?2) Now back to the serpent and satan. If the serpent was simply the serpent how did satan end up as the prince of the power of the air and the god of this world?Now just a thought,If you hold to your definition of world, is this world really satan’s? 2 Cor 4:4 He is the god of this world,How do you work that In view ofPsalms 24:1A Psalm of David.The earth is the Lord’s, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein.
Dave Good night for now
Levi Chavis Joshua, here’s some sound advice for you when it comes to people like David. Ephesians 5:6-76 Do not let anyone fool you by telling you things that are not true, because these things will bring God’s anger on those who do not obey him. 7 So have nothing to do with them.David is willfully ignorant, don’t waste your time on a person who sees what God’s Word says and blatantly denies it. Kick the dust off of your shoes and move on.
Sammy Ford It’s not getting caught up on two points David it is the Bible. You give thoughts instead of scripture. Here’s a thought why dont you cling to your scriptureless thoughts and I’ll cling to the Bible as it is written. Levi gave me some sound advice and I’m gonna take it. You go talk your babble to someone else
Levi Chavis Joshua that’s a good word, “babble”. 😂👌 🐝🐝🐝
Dave Joshua SakalNo scriptureLoL.So you two think you can enlighten me and you can’t read.Black and white scripture,  you don’t know the meaning if the  words.Thank you for the compliment.By the way Levi ChavisSince you are kicking the dust off your feet and you want black and white scripture when did you come to my house or city?Matthew 10:14And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.You two are hilarious,  better than the greatest entertainment.
Doug Garmany Levi, I would like to hear more.
Louise Cummings Well I think they are talking about when Satan was cast out of Heaven because of sin. But I really don’t see how it entered into our world until Adam. Because the Bible says because of one mans sin. Sin was entered into the world. Talking about Adam. And by one man Life or forgiveness enter the world or we were made alive. But if you believe the gap theory when Satan fell. The believe that’s what brought caps into the world. I think that’s how they explain it. Some places where you read in the Bible kill that could have been true. They believe Giants was in the world before the recreation of the world. I just read of one creation of the world. But they give Bible. But that’s deeper than I can understand. I hope I haven’t confused you. But the sin in the world before the Law was after Adam and Eve dined. Sin went on a good while before the Law came to tell us what sin was. You studied that in your Sunday School Lesson.
Dave Thank you
Levi Chavis Satan was not a fallen Angel. He was the seed of one. Take the time and research the name, Mastema, as well as The Watchers. Stop listening to the mainstream religions’ lie about some fallen angel named “Lucifer”. It never happened. “Lucifer” simply means, “Morning Star”. Educate yourself. 😊
Sammy Ford Who is mastema
Levi Chavis Mastema is the real name of Satan. He was the son of a fallen angel, one of The Watchers. Go research it, you’ll enjoy the info.
Louise Cummings Levi Chavis I need some. But I have put much time studying the Bible. My favorite Book. I started preaching when I was around fifteen years old. I was still in school. I’ve never been to a seminar. But I have taught Sunday School many years as well as preach when I had an opportunity. Held revivals one before I married. And one after I got Married. Then raising children I didn’t travel far to preach. Just on week ends. I got a little gift on Pastor’s appreciation Sunday for teaching forty something years straight in a row. I did resign one year to give someone a chance. They would always vote me right back in. Started out in young married class now in the adult Sanctuary class. I don’t see every thing like every writes on here. I was just trying to explain to you why some believed in the gap theory. They say when Satan was cast out of Heaven. The world became Caicos and became darkness and water on the face of the world and there had to be another creation. They say between Genesis First chapter and between verse one and verse two could have been I thousands of years. So God created a New Heaven and a new earth. They call that the gap theory. I didn’t say I believed all that. I was just trying to explain that was what some was teaching. I know you must have read this in with discussions. I was just trying to explain that’s was what some was teaching. I didn’t say I did. I believe what the Bible says. I thought you was wondering about what someone said. And that was what I though they was talking about. But not me. Sometimes they give Scriptures that makes it sound like that is what it meant. But I have never seen it like that. Just forget all that I was trying to explain how someone else believed and let’s go back to what the Bible was saying that we do believe and forget all the other. I wish I had never tried to explain that because I don’t know enough of what they was saying to know if I explained it like they meant it are not. I appreciate your thoughts. And getting back to the Bible I think we would believe pretty much the same.
Levi Chavis Louise Cummings , you are a blessing if you don’t already know it. I didn’t assume that you actually thought that nonsense of a gap theory. I’m with you, I believe God’s Word exactly as it is written. After all, it is the written Word of God, perfect throughout. To assume that sin entered in by any other way than Adam is not biblical. I cannot even begin to imagine someone thinking something like that. To say that means that there would be another way for sin to be taken away from us. After all, Christ was the second Adam. SMH, some people just amaze me with their foolish ways of thinking…God Bless you and I will continue to pray for you and your family. 😊
Louise Cummings Levi Chavis thank you so much.
Sammy Ford I looked up that stuff you talked about Levi. That is some very very interesting stuff and I haven’t got into it very far. I never knew that fallen angels mated with women on earth and that was where giants cane from. The angels taught them sorcery astronomy and all sorts of things. Crazy crazy good reading thanks
Levi Chavis It gets better the further you get into it Joshua. Take your time and read it all. Enjoy! ☺
Dave Levi ChavisWhat is your source for this? Mastema is the real name of Satan. He was the son of a fallen angel, one of The Watchers.And do you have scripture for it? I looked up Mastema and the sources that were used were “wiccan” sourced.  I am not convinced that is a source believers of Christ need to be using.You do know who the wiccans are and their purpose I hope.
Dave Levi ChavisWhat does your source say about Gen 4:1.
Dave Levi ChavisIn response to your statement;To assume that sin entered in by any other way than Adam is not biblical. I cannot even begin to imagine someone thinking something like that. To say that means that there would be another way for sin to be taken away from us. After all, Christ was the second Adam.No,  it does not matter which way sin entered into the world because,Revelation of John 13:8And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.By your reference to sin entering the world Jesus still covers ALL sin,  regardless of the source.That in itself shows that you have no idea what I am saying, or what I am referencing within the Bible.
Louise Cummings Dave I don’t have a source but the Bible. I don’t have a source that teaches the gap theory. I just know preachers that believe in the gap theory. I believe Gen. 4:1 that Adam and Eve had an intimate relation ship together and they had a son. Eve thought Cain was begotten from the Lord because of what Gen. 3:15 said. Which said. And I will put enmity between you and the woman. And between your seed and her seed: it shall bruise your head and you shall bruise His heel. Which was the first promise in the Bible that God would send the Lord Jesus Christ into the world. To save us from sin. Going back to verse 4:1 Eve said I have gotten a man from the Lord. Eve using the title Lord , which means ( Covenant God ) and which refers to the Seed of the woman. (Gen. 3:15) I just wrote down she thought CAIN WAS THE PROMISED ONE. she evidently didn’t realize that it was impossible for fallen man to bring forth the Promised Redeemer.
Dave Louise CummingsI asked Levi Chavis because he has stated in the past that satan was Cain’s father and that Eve had been beguiled sexually by the serpent since she had her eyes opened to being naked.Thank you for your reply.I am not needing informationI want to see him wiggle around it.He is a good learning experience and case study.Blessings.
Louise Cummings When The Lord made Adam from the dust of the earth. And Eve from a rib from his side. And put them in the Garden and told them they could eat of any tree in that garden except that one that was forbidden. And Eve was deceived by the serpent. And ate it and gave to Adam who God had told him not to eat it or they day they would die. They both disobeyed Gods Word. They Sinned. I can’t find in the Bible any where but there where sin entered the world but there when they disobeyed God. If you know anywhere else where sin entered in pleas let me know. Because the Lord told them if they ate of that tree. That day they would die. And they did die Spiritually that day. And physically brought death to us all. Passes down from Adam. And man is still paying for disobeying God ever since. The Bible said when sin is finished it brings forth death. And will pay an awful price if they don’t repent of their to The Precious Redeemer Jesus Christ. The Seed of a woman and conceived by The Holy Spirit. The only one that can forgive sins. And the only way to Heaven. That’s the way I have always believed it because it’s The Word Of God.
Dave Agreed Louise Cummings.So you don’t think Eve was beguiled  (sexually) by the serpent?She was simply tempted to eat and disobey God in doing so.Look at the reason I asked Levi for the information, it is listed within my previous reply.It refers to his previous posts and other replies on the topic.
Louise Cummings Dave thank you.
Levi Chavis I will say one last thing and I will leave you to it David. Let’s take out the scenario of the fruit and the scenario of sex. Now, let’s look at what the scripture says and this will show plainly the truth of the matter. Deal?
Louise Cummings Dave no I do not believe the serpent and Eve was engaged in a sexual relationship in any way. The Bible I don’t think even gives a hint of that. The Bible makes it clear it was Adam and Eve. The Bible says he knew his wife , means in a intimate way. The snake just did what the devil does best. The snake lied to Eve. She believed the snake instead of God. The snake deceived Eve. Just like the devil is still deceiving people today. People still believing the devil today. It’s gonna be sad when they stand before This Merciful God. But they will have to give an account to God on that Day. I pray I can help many not have to stand before The White Throne Of Judgment. In other words help people except Jesus as Savior.
Louise Cummings Dave in no way. You will find more on this farther down.
Levi Chavis Genesis 3:14-1514 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.-How many seeds are in verse 15? 2: the serpent’s seed and Adam’s seed. (Adam and Eve are One flesh)Genesis 3:2020 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.-Eve was the “mother of all living”. It doesn’t say Adam was the father of all living. Genesis 4:1-21 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.2 And she again bare his brother Abel. And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.-Adam knew Eve once, not twice. She bare Cain and Abel. *Also note that it does not say that Cain and Abel are twins, unlike Jacob and Esau. Genesis 25:2424 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb.Genesis 4:2525 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth: For God, said she, hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel, whom Cain slew.-So, now Adam has known Eve for a second time and she bore Seth: “another seed instead of Abel”, whom Cain slew.  Genesis 5:1-31 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, and after his image; and called his name Seth:-Notice verse 2 where it says that he called “their” name Adam, because they were one flesh(Adam and Eve). Also, Cain isn’t mentioned anywhere in Adam’s lineage whatsoever. Verse 3 says Adam lived 130 years and begat a son in his own likeness, Seth. John 8:41-4741 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?47 He that is of God heareth God’s words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.-Verse 41 Christ told the Pharisees that they did the works of their father. What was their response? We “be not born of fornication”. Who are they referring to?? The answer is Cain. -He tells the Pharisees that they cannot hear his words because they are of their father the devil, “who was a murderer from the beginning”. Who was the first murderer?? That’s right, Cain. -Why does Christ separate himself from the Pharisees if Cain was really from Adam?? After all, the lineage of Christ started with Abraham who came from Adam. Cain had his own lineage separate from Adam. 1 John 3:11-1211 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother’s righteous.-Once again, Cain was of that “wicked one”. If Adam were his father, it would’ve said “Adam”.
Louise Cummings I’m studying for a program on TV tonight at 7:30. Just a thirty minute program. Doesn’t reach out far. A lot of people can’t pick it up. It doesn’t reach far out. After I study and get the program ready. I’ll comment on some of these things. I can’t right now. I enjoy discussions as long as people doesn’t get mad because of it. I don’t want to hurt anybody. At the same time. We all need to understand the scriptures.
Dave Finally glad to see that you Levi Chavis twisted scripture.The seed of Eve was exactly that.As you let’s see what the scripture says, Genesis 3:13And the Lord God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. “She ate, she should know, she was there, she did it”.Your words in verse 15 there are two seeds. (Chapter 3).You said the serpents and Adam.Did God say Adams seemNo, God said the woman – HER seed.You said Adam knew his,wife one time. Ok let’s go with that.The scripture point blank said Adam knew her, she conceived and bare Cain. Chapter 4:1 of Genesis.Yet again you leave the black and white of the scripture.As I was asked concerning Col 2 yesterday and beguiling your Genesis 25 reference has nothing to do with Eve does it?.. ☺You say that Genesis states Adam knew Eve two times.You are EXACTLY CORRECT!And which two children are immediately motioned in those two instances, according to your post from the bible?….Seth, and CAIN.Black and white it is.As for your reference to Genesis 5:1-3.Yes Lord,  YES. it does mention Seth.Yes Lord YES it does NOT mention Cain (nor did it mention Abel who you have so perfectly proven should be listed here because without a doubt he was Adam’s son).So if Cain is omitted because (you say Adam is not his father) Abell must be omitted for the same reason. 😎Now, John 8:41-47I wonder  (not really) why you are so selective in choosing your referencesLet’s back up to see what they and Jesus said about SEED…John 8:33They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?Jesus said this as a fact as only He could being the Only begotten Son of God (the Only Wise God as you stated the other day)John 8:37I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.- whose’ seed did Jesus say. Jesus used your word SEED, of them and agreed that they were Abraham’s seed.  Of those two lines you referenced in Genesis 3:15, which one is Abraham from?And where in John 8:41-47 did Jesus say they were of the SEED of the serpent…As much for your reference to “born of fornication” and being of Cain.Again your Lord, Saviour and God told them – (after the flesh – you did say that Eve was sexually beguiled correct)John 8:37I know that ye are Abraham’s seed;(let that sink in),BUTye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.(You do realize that John the Baptist who Jesus said was the greatest born of a woman also told the seed of Abraham thisLuke 3:8Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.LoL, how does your theology handle stones having children that are human?Here would be a great time for you to save your face and distinguish between spiritual seed with the serpent being the Father of Cain, verses the fleshly line of Adam down through Abraham  (which you have so perfectly setup for me to use).(Since you are too proud for that let’s continue you and I)Let’s bring this home for bed,I John  3:11-12Again you are correct but very selective in your reference.Let’s back up and see what John says about not only Cain but all of those who are from “the wicked one” ….1 John 3:9-10Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. – then it comes to your reference.We are either BORN OF GOD or we are CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL.We are born of God,,,So when did God let the Holy Spirit birth you by knowing you mother?I will have to check that with my mother, 😘You have NEVER said that we are born of God, you said Adam and Abraham. (All that is correct, but you are still too shallow).  The same writer in the same passage says if we commit no sin we are BORN of God.So how did Now for the finish, Child of God, We are born of God after we accept Jesus as Saviour Romans 8:15 (you remember going to Romans 8 yesterday don’t you) and Gal 4:6.Let’s not overlookGalatians 3:6-8Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.* CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM by and through FAITH, not the flesh.Galatians 3:26-29For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.Children of God through faith in Jesus,If we be Christ’s then we are Abraham’s seed. (By faith, not the flesh)Ephesians 2:2-6Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:OH WOW!at one time we were all children of another, other than God, or even Adam, or Father Abraham.I love you man! I enjoy this. By the way, I have Church of God conference starting in a few moments until Saturday morning.I will look for your reply after that and also get back to your source for the King of Tyre  (don’t forget to sent your source to me).Blessings (from our Good Daddy Father God/Jesus/Holy Ghost)😇
Louise Cummings
Levi Chavis Umm, David, we are only talking about the Garden of Eden at this time, try and stay on point. Poor David, you must’ve failed science in school, lol. The man carries the seed, not the woman. Seeing that Adam and Eve were One flesh, it was Adam’s seed, not Eve. God addressed Eve because she was the one who was led astray. As far as Abel not being in the lineage of Adam: Abel was dead, thus the relevance of the comment “God has appointed me ANOTHER SEED INSTEAD OF ABEL, whom Cain slew.” Notice Seth was alive to be the seed carrier for Adam, to propagate the physical bloodline of Christ. I have to point out the obvious, it was Adam’s lineage, not Eve’s. SMH at you again David. How can I speak to you of heavenly things when you can’t understand earthly things?? There’s only One Scripture that says how we receive the Holy Spirit, Acts 2:38. You can’t simply utter some words and accept Christ. I’m not mad at you because I know that God hasn’t opened your eyes to His Word. You’re willfully ignorant and you just boasted that you serve a 3-headed god. Baal was the only 3-headed god in the Bible. I really feel sorry for you and will continue to pray that God will someday open your eyes to His Word.
Sammy Ford What in the world is wrong with you David! Why did you make fun of the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary! You have lost your mind! SHAME ON YOU! BLASPHEMER!
Levi Chavis Wow, just Wow David. I missed the part where you mocked God’s Word until Joshua pointed it out. You just won’t quit, will you? First you mock the disciple John when he received his revelation of Jesus Christ, from Christ, calling him delusional and schizophrenic. You also said that John made an error when he received the revelation. Now you are mocking the conception of my Savior Jesus Christ? You are truly lost. May God have mercy on you David.
Sammy Ford
Sammy Ford I still can’t believe David did that. Your testimony is ruined David and everyone has seen what you did. SHAMEFUL!
Louise Cummings In the book of Revelation it calls Satan the serpent. Rev. 12:13. Says and when the dragon was cast out , that old serpent , called the Devil and Satan which deceived the whole world , he was cast out into the earth , and his Angels were cast out with him.    So the old serpent was called the devil.
Louise Cummings Jesus bruised Satan head at the Cross. Jesus heal was bruised, because it has been proven when they nail your feet to the Cross. They put a long nail through the heel of the foot going through to the wood of the Cross , so that when they died the nail could be easily pulled out. That is where Christ heel was bruised.
Sammy Ford Hello Louise we haven’t officially talked yet. I don’t know your background in church but Revelation isnt a future set of events. Revelation told of the fall Rome and the emperor. I studied this as a child and have known it for years and it is easy to prove. The first three verses of chapter one says that these things must shortly come to pass and to keep the things that are written for the time is at hand. John wrote revelation to the seven churches of that time in coded message called apocalyptic writing so the romans wouldn’t be able to understand it. Neros Greek name adds up to the number 666. The christians new that fact but the romans wouldn’t be able to figure it out.
Sammy Ford Louise Cummings I like to talk Bible a lot maybe we can have time to chat.
Louise Cummings Joshua Sakal yes I knew it wasn’t referring to the subject we were talking about. I was just want to show where the serpent was referred to the devil in Revelation. I wasn’t deciding the meaning of Rev. a great end time book. I love studying Revelation and the seven Churches of Asia. I just simply meant to show where the serpent was also called the devil. Revelation is a great Book and would take some time to get into the study of that Book. But that wasn’t my intent. I was just showing where the serpent was called the devil. Because it was Ben talked about where someone thought that the serpent and Eve came together. And I was just where the serpent was called the devil in Rev.
Louise Cummings Joshua Sakal my back ground is I was raised in the Baptist church. There wasn’t much difference in them and Pentecostal when I was a child. What I mean they shouted and they didn’t believe in speaking in Tongues and women preaching. But I never heard those subjects discussed as a child. I had good strict parents. They lived like Pentecostals. I mean they shouted. Women testified and just about preached in their testimony. I couldn’t wear pants or make up. I had strict parents but full of love. We moved to Spring Valley. Just a mile or so from Tuscumbia Al. There I started going to the Church Of God. And was filled with The Holy Ghost. Later called to preach as a teen aged. I’ve got exhorters license in the Church Of God. I got Married at nineteen years old. The Lord gave me five wonderful Children. Three girls and two boys. One son is music director at Dora Church Of God. One of my daughters husband is the Pastor of our Church. My daughters and one of my grandsons are music directors at our Church. Shortly after marriage we moved to Chicago Ill. We didn’t stay ther long until we moved back home. My husband went home to be with the Lord five years ago. I miss him greatly. But he was always Church Of God. He believed in being in Church every time he Church doors was opened. He was a good man. Good provider. Good husband and father. My oldes child was a boy. He wrote a song in R.E.M. ran every of his daddy. Thanks Dad. You should hear it. All five of my Children loves the Lord. Since my my husband passed. I preach at our church once in a while. I don’t get to go places much because of some back and knee problems. I teach a Sunday School Class. The last Pastor’s appreciation day. The presented me with a thing to keep on my dresses that was for teaching Sunday School forty something years straight in a row. But I remember I did resign one year to give someone else a chance. But they voted me right back in. Thank the Lord He’s still giving me strength to teach. I started out in the young married class and now in the Sanctuary class. I have put a lot of Study to the Bible. And still a lot more to learn. I love the study of Gods Word. You can study the same maybe you used in teaching or preaching. And go back to that same Scripture. And the Lord give you a brand new Revelation on it. I found you never get through learning. Always new meanings the Lord shows you. And I love it. Well I guess you already know more about me than you wanted to. Not to much to tell about my life except I love the Lord with everything within me. And love people. I love deciding the Bible but not arguing. I like to get to try to get the correct point across. But I’ve got a lot to learn myself and pray the Lord always Leeds me right.
Louise Cummings That statement about my son. Was suppose to be that he wrote a song in remembrance of his daddy. Thanks Dad. Was the name of the song. I don’t understand how I get all these letters and things so messed up. It doesn’t look like that while I am writing it. Sorry about that. I haven’t read over all of it. I guess I have more messed up things.
Sammy Ford All is well Ms Louise! My background is of Assembly of God the majority of my life and went to an independent about 20 years ago. I’ve seen God move on churches with a huge outpouring of revelation it was so good. I love to speak Bible with people until they blaspheme and then it’s bye bye! You seem to know a lot about the Bible and in some way you remember how I use to be. I love Jesus and love his Bible. Levi brother I wont leave you out either. haha
Louise Cummings The Assembly Of God I’ve always heard was a good Church. I always loved listening to Bro. Jimmie Swaggart. I got to thinking I might have offended you. But I just Always think Bible. I hope I don’t offend for getting in on your Bible discussions. If so I sure won’t offend if I know it.
Sammy Ford Louise Cummings you haven’t offended me in the least I want you to know that. I dont know everything detail about the Bible but I know who determines my salvation and that is Jesus. He is my SAVIOR! I look forward to many more talks with you Levi and many other people on here. It is hard to find good bible discussion nowday.
Louise Cummings Thank you. I just didn’t want to intrude. Because I know everyone doesn’t agree with me. But I try to make sure I am staying with what the Bible says.
Levi Chavis Louise and Joshua, striving to live righteous is what we should all do. We tend to get wrapped up in some things that were part of the Old Law which was based on works. The new covenant makes us saved by grace, and not by works, lest any man should boast. As Paul wrote in Romans 5, the Law was given to show sin, but the perfect blood sacrifice(Christ) was the only way for sin to be taken away. The absurdity of the Gap Theory is their claim that sin was in the world before Adam sinned. To make that claim, they are saying that since there was more than one way that sin entered the world, your sin can be removed more than one way. Thus, Christ isn’t a Savior if there’s another way for your sin to be taken away. That claim is antichrist. Gap theory is not found anywhere in God’s Word and should be thrown out. I also love to share God’s Word with anyone who is willing to listen to me, lol. God Bless you guys and I also look forward to many more conversations! 😊
Louise Cummings The antichrist has many names. The man of sin , the beast and Revelation 6:2 them man on the whit horse is not Christ. He’s the antichrist. You don’t hear of the true Church mention in the Revelation after chapter four. Chapter six is the antichrist. Then you’ll read at the end of Revelation where Jesus will come back riding on a white horse. The raptures church that had arose from the dead and the living would be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye would be changed and all go up to meet the Lord in the air. 2:  Thessalonians. I would have to look up the verse.   The word Rapture is not mentioned in the Bible either. But caught up is and that means Rapture. Read the Book of Jude. Just one book before Revelation. And you will find where Enoch had a vision of this. The Bible said Enoch was the seventh man from Adam. He was not because God translated him because he had this testing that he pleased God. He jab a vision of Jesus coming back with the saints that was caught up to meet the Lord in the air. They will come back. To earth with Jesus for the Jews to have their land that the Lord gave them in the Old Testament. But the antichrist is called the man of sin. And the devil has always tried to inmate Jesus. One thing he can’t do. He can’t have a Son born by a Virgin Mary without and earthly father coming. Together. With her. He was conceived as The Holy Spirit moved upon Mary. The seed of a woman. And God was His Father. The devil can’t match that one. Even tho he’s tried by cloning.   It so much it’s hard to write it all at. But Jesus told Nicodemus you must be born again. That’s from the fleshly birth to the Spiritual birth.
Sammy Ford And being born again happens when you are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Born again of water and the spirit amen.
Louise Cummings The works Paul was talking about was circumcised. That was under the Law. But now it’s by Grace through Faith believing that Jesus Christ is The Son Of God. He died and rose again for His Bride which is born again Christians. That’s looking for Him. He said if I go to prepare you a place. If I go I will come again to receive you unto myself. There’s only one way for Salvation and that’s through Jesus Christ. If any body tries to tell you otherwise. Tell them they are teaching Hersey. Jesus Christ is the only. I wish you had time to read. But Abraham going to offer his son as a sacrifice was a type of Christ. God stoped Abraham He would prepare for Himself a sacrifice. And He Did Jesus Christ. Thee brazen serpent in the wilderness res presented the snake had bitten all human race and the serpent resented the Cross. I could go on and on but you don’t have time.
Sammy Ford Louise Cummings oh I have time. Glad you brought up circumcision of the old law because that was the putting away of the flesh. The second covenant that we are under is a spiritual covenant. We still have to put away our flesh and Paul says that we are circumcised with the circumcision made without human hands when we are baptized in Christ. That is how we as his bride puts on his name and that is through baptism.
Levi Chavis Louise Cummings brings up an excellent point. It is by faith that we believe that Jesus is the son of God, the firstborn of all creation. Joshua Sakal also brings up an excellent point. We are circumcised when we are buried with him in baptism in his name, and his name is Jesus Christ. Both are correct, but I have a question… how do we believe that all of this is true? How did Noah have faith? How did Abraham have faith? How did Moses have faith? How did all of the ancients of the Old Testament and the apostles have faith? One answer for all of these questions… They heard from God.God will only save those who are in need of a Savior. Christ said “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one can come to the Father except through me.”Christ said “Anyone who does not enter by the door into the sheepfold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.” He goes on to say “I am the door of the sheep.” Remember, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
Louise Cummings You have to remember they didn’t have the writtenWord in the beginning. God talked to them. He talked to the ones like Noah. The Bible said Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. So God told Noah what to do because the world had become so wicked. But Noah Preached and warned the people one hundred and twenty years while preparing the Ark.  they didn’t believe  Noah. But they got a surprise when it started raining. I would tell you of more that believed the Lord.
Louise Cummings I was going to say God talked to Adam and Eve. God and Enoch. And he was translated because he had a testimony that He pleased God. God talked to the ones that believed in God. But Faith came along then the Law. God always had a way to get a message across. I suppose they kept records. And the Word Of God was written by Holy men of God as The Holy Spirit moved upon them.
Dave LeviConsidering this started with you accusing me of believing, teaching,  and preaching man made doctrine, You can’t even back up your scripture reference Ezekiel 28:13Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God;You researched and shared a source to get you around the fact that the King of Tyrus beingAnd let’s be black and whiteIn Eden The Garden of God. Now who is the one racing for help from men and teaching man’s beliefs? I guess that was just dropped on you out of heaven (go ahead,  have a fit,  I slam you not heaven or God).Just as Elijah made fun of the 850 prophets on Mount Carmel I laugh at you.You guysLevi ChavisJoshua Sakalare hilariously sad.My reputation is fully intact to those with whom it matters. I did not make fun of the Holy Spirit. I made fun of you.I did not call John delusional or schizophrenic. I pointed out the way Levi Chavis teaches the God-Head he makes John delusional if anyone does.I know God did not know our over shadow my mother or yours,  yet I am a child of God,  so by your understanding of the events is wrong. John 10:31-36Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said,Ye are gods?If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? You are so arrogant you don’t get that I am laughing at your misunderstandings.As far as me being a blasphemer,You don’t even understand the meaning of the word.Oh I am sure Levi will post a screen shot of the modern English definition which is not even close to Matthew 12:31-32Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.Why don’t you post my comment on context;””Luke 3:8Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.LoL, how does your theology handle stones having children that are human?Here would be a great time for you to save your face and distinguish between spiritual seed with the serpent being the Father of Cain, verses the fleshly line of Adam down through Abraham  (which you have so perfectly setup for me to use).(Since you are too proud for that let’s continue you and I)Let’s bring this home for bed,I John  3:11-12Again you are correct but very selective in your reference.Let’s back up and see what John says about not only Cain but all of those who are from “the wicked one” ….1 John 3:9-10Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. – then it comes to your reference.We are either BORN OF GOD or we are CHILDREN OF THE DEVIL.We are born of God,,,So when did God let the Holy Spirit birth you by knowing you mother?I will have to check that with my mother, 😘You have NEVER said that we are born of God, you said Adam and Abraham. (All that is correct, but you are still too shallow).  The same writer in the same passage says if we commit no sin we are BORN of God.””End quote.That is not me making fun of the Holy Spirit,But it is me laughing at your theology (theology used very loosely).  Your opinion never has mattered to me. I am so glad I don’t agree with you.If the best you have out of that post is to pull out one portion  to distract the conversation,well I know all I need to.
Dave Louise CummingsThe one that had brought up the serpent coming together with Eve (to know) being the meaning of Eve being beguiled of the serpent was me due to a pervious conversation with Levi Chavis.Don’t take my word that he said it. Ask him if he has the nerve to repeat it.If he can’t get that correct,  I could not care any less what else he believes.He does not even know when someone is making fun of him.He is so proud he deflects it to making fun of God’s Spirit.Please, they can’t damage my reputation.Ask him his belief on the beguiling of Eve.
Sammy Ford David, you are a sad individual. You made fun of the conception Jesus Christ and anyone can see that. Your testimony is ruined by your blasphemy and arrogance and I might not have it all right when it comes to the Bible but I would never make fun of God while trying to belittle a person over their believes. I wont waste another minute with a small minded shameful man like you. Go away
Louise Cummings I started to comment. But decided I wouldn’t. Nothing serious.
Levi Chavis Correct me if I’m wrong, which I’m not, but aren’t you a license-carrying preacher of a denomination?? So yes, you are a hireling of that denomination. You’re just not good enough at your job to actually get a paycheck. Your “reputation”(LOL) is, as Joshua Sakal said, ruined. You can try to twist it how you want but you did in fact, mock God and make fun of God’s Word. -You said plainly that the disciple John made an error when he received the Revelation of Jesus Christ, and that he was delusional and schizophrenic. Why? Because you don’t understand what God’s Word says. -You made fun of the overshadowing of Mary by the Holy Spirit, in your own words: “So when did God let the Holy Spirit birth you by knowing your mother? I will have to check that with my mother, 😘.”You shouldn’t be preaching with the arrogant ignorance you portray, along with your disgusting rhetoric. With that David, I do hope God has mercy on you because you trampled the Son of God under your feet. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:28-3128 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.With that being said, I stand behind every word I said and have provided plenty of scripture for verification. This is where we end our conversation David, Good-bye.
Dave So glad what you think Levi Chavis only matters in your own little world  (that of your mind and twisted friends).Man made doctrine. Eze 28:13Better hold on to that source of yours to help you twist more scripture in the future. The King of Tyrus never made it to Eden, the garden of God. (I guess black and white scripture only applies to those you try to oppose).Why don’t you post my comments in context, Oh I know,  it would not fit your agenda.By the way,  you still are not that good.I am not going anywhere.
Dave Joshua SakalYou want me to go away,  you invited yourself into the conversation between Levi and myself. Why don’t you post my comments in context. Same reason your buddy won’t,  they would not fit your agenda.
Sammy Ford I don’t have an agenda I was asking a question to Levi when you blasphemed the Holy Spirit. You posted your own comments in context for every one to see David I dont have to do it. Im not friends with Levi but I can tell you one thing about him he’s not blasphemed like you. If you are a preacher you should get another job because you are an embarrassment to your church people and your family. If you were my preacher I would leave your church after the way you act. God has a way of taking care of people who blaspheme him in the end. Levi gave Bible verses with his claim and all you gave was blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. How dare you, SHAMEFUL! I know some of the Bible and it sounds like Levi put you in your place with Bible and you got mad at him and tried to belittle him but you plan back fired and blasphemed instead. God has a way of making you look stupid in your taught wisdom. You are a sad excuse of a so call man of God. SHAMEFUL!
Dave I did not blasphem.Maybe you need to learn how to read.Were those that Jesus spoke to in John 8:41-47 of their father the devil? Yes as Levi said. Jesus also said that the same people are of the seed of Abraham. John 8:37I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. .Maybe you two need to learn how to read and rightly divide the scriptures.You are right about one thing,  this conversation is just about over.Levi probably needs more time to go check man made sources and opinions.
Sammy Ford You are done David and you dont have a leg to stand on. Go troll someone else blasphemer. You should quit talking about God because all you do is blaspheme. You are like who Paul talk about in romans
Sammy Ford Your a fool who thinks hes wise David
Dave Levi ChavisYour comment concerning the me failing science class in school (not hardly, I aced it and was an honor grad,, not that It matters).The seed being from a male and not a female – normally yes,, but not in the case of the Virgin Birthof Christ. (You know, they call it prophecy).How do you even try to discuss scripture?You say you have to point out the obvious with Adam being the one to hold the seed and not Eve. You my “b”rother missed two points;One,  God directly spoke of “the woman when he said that, the female, not the male”. Genesis 3:15 “the woman, her seed”LoL so much for your black and white.That brings up point number two. There is a reason that the female was called woman up until Genesis 3:19 BUT in Genesis 3:20AFTER the fall and AFTER THE JUDGEMENT of God Genesis 3:20And Adam called his wife’s name Eve; because she was the mother of all living.She was called Eve the mother of all living AFTER death enters Genesis 2:17 and now sin reigned Romans 5:21.It could not be man’s seed, man was not preserved and promised a seed for redemption,  just the woman.So then you have to ask, how is eve, the female AFTER THE FALLEN now the mother of all leaving and the one you say is holding that seed (ADAM) is the one that brought in sin and death? Romans 5:12-14. The seed could not be from Adam, if it had been the Virgin Birth would not have been needed.You may want to look up what a “poison pill” is in the world of debate and then reread this thread. It is full of them.  I intentionally laced it with them. Lord I have had fun with you.Enjoy.
Dave Joshua SakalYou too need to go research a poison pill and reread the thread.Awesome,  I love you guys. Great entertainment.
Dave Louise CummingsAs a friend,  have you looked at crucifixion as the articles over the past few years demonstrate it from the biblical account?IF they had driven the nail through the heel of Christ the verse would not have been fulfilled Psalms 34:20 He keepeth all his bones: not one of them is broken.It was for more than His legs during his death.Bruising His heel and bruising the serpent’s head was done at the resurrection and shall be doneRomans 16:20And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.They are very enlightening and informative articles. One written by a christian doctor who knows both sides. It was in JAMA, the Journal of the American Medical Association.
Dave Joshua SakalIf you go look at this thread again I gave scriptures in black and white, just as Levi  (some folk are easily distracted by poison pills).It has been enjoyable.
Louise Cummings I had seen the other day that someone had said that one Baptism in the Bible. And the Bible does say one Lord , one Faith , one Baptism. But it does speak of in the book of John where Jesus was Baptized uno Johns Baptism. But he told the people that he was not the Messiah. He said I baptize unto Repentance. But when He comes He shall Baptize you with The Holy GHOST AND fire. So that is two Baptism mentioned in the Bible. Which formula do you use in Baptism. In The Name Of Jesus. Or In The Name Of The Father , Son And The Holy Ghost. Of course everything I do. I do it In The Name Of Jesus. No matter which formula you use.
Louise Cummings Joshua Sakal good
Louise Cummings He speaks now of the circumcision of the heart. It starts on the inside. It’s not just the outward appearance Lille the Pharisees taught. Yeh washing of the outside of the platter or washing of hands. But the inward heart. Salvation starts inward , believing in Him.
Levi Chavis Louise Cummings, John’s baptism was still under the Old Law, before the Old Law was fulfilled through the shedding of the blood of Christ. Notice, when Paul was at Ephesus in Acts 19.-Acts 19:1-61 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, “Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?”They answered, “No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit.”3 So Paul asked, “Then what baptism did you receive?”“John’s baptism,” they replied.4 Paul said, “John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus.” 5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. John’s baptism was a prelude to Acts 2:38. Every instance of baptism, after Christ told the disciples in Matthew 28:19 to go and baptize the people, the apostles baptized in Jesus name. The apostles did exactly what Christ instructed them to do when they baptized in Jesus name. How do you think we are born again? Christ told Nicodemus that a man must be “born again of water and the Spirit”, or he would not enter “the Kingdom of Heaven”. Christ was “the Kingdom of Heaven”. When we are baptized in his name, we partake of his death, burial, and resurrection. Thus, we are “born again”. Baptism is the only way that happens. When we are baptized in Christ, we are clothed in Christ. We take on his name, just as a bride takes the name of her husband. We are the bride of Christ. Here are some scriptures for you to read, for verification. -Acts 2:38-39-Acts 8:30-39-Acts 16:30-34-Acts 22:14-16-Romans 6:1-6-1 Corinthians 12:1-14-Galatians 3:26-29-Colossians2:6-15-1 Peter 3:18-21God Bless Louise, enjoy your day! 😊
Sammy Ford This proves your stupidity and foolishness David the virgin birth was when Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit. A seed and a egg have to connect to create a child. She didn’t impregnate herself you fool so how do you call yourself a preacher! SHAMEFUL!
Louise Cummings The woman her seed was referring to the Virgin birth of Jesus. Through the Holy Spirit moving upon Mary Jesus Mother. His Father was God. His earthly father was Joseph. But he disentangle come through the seed of Joseph or Adam. He came through The Holy Spirit Moving upon Mary. That was a prophesy of God was going to sending a son. Which we know was Jesus.
Louise Cummings Levi Chavis I know all those Scriptures. I had a brother that belonged to that Church. But I don’t get into those arguments. I think in Matthew 28: 19. Some where around there he toil His disciples as he went up to go into all the world and preach the gospel , Baptizing them in the Name of The Father The Son And The Holy Ghost. I know the other Scriptures. But I don’t teach that they are wrong. If they feel that’s Wright for them. I have done much praying and study over this one Scripture. I ask God to show me if I’m wrong. But so far when I study it always seemed the  Scripture I find is Wright. But I appreciate standing for what you feel the Scripture you find means what you believe. But I feel there’s other Scriptures that fits into what it’s saying. No hard feelings and I will pray and study.
Sammy Ford Can I ask you something Louise? What is the “name” of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
Louise Cummings I don’t know what I was trying to say when I messed up that word unless it was that Jesus didn’t come through earthly seed like with Adam Or Joseph, but was conceived of The Holy Ghost. I guess was what I was meaning to say. Sorry about that. I get in a hurry and mess things up.
Ricky Grimsley Joshua Sakal jehovah?
Louise Cummings Joshua Sakal I know yard going to say Jesus. My brother always told me we Baptized in a title and not a Name. But you can go from the Old Testament to the New Testament. That His Name was called Wonderful , Mighty God , Ever Lasting Father , Prince of Peace. And the New Testament told us His Name would be Called Jesus because He Would Save From Sin. And in John. It said in the beginning was the Word. And the Word was with God and the Word was God. So His Name was called , Father And God. And that’s just a few. And John came as a Forerunner of Jesus. Preaching Make His Path Straight. When He was Baptized of John. The Holy Ghost came and Lit upon Him in Form Of A Dove. And a voice From Heaven said This Is My Beloved Son. Hear Him.  I would need to Study if Every Time it said about Baptism In Jesus Name. If it meant in water. I’m not denying it wasn’t. I just need to study it. I believe when He was talking to Nicodemus, and ask him how can a man enter his Mothers womb the second time and be born. Jesus said unless one is born of water and Spirit , he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. When a child is born. The water comes first. Then the baby. Now I don’t know if that was what Jesus was talking about or not. Because said after that. That which is born of flesh is flesh. And that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit. Now could have meant Baptism. But it could have meant flesh.because Romans 10: 9 said that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Verse 10 says For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto Salvation. And I believe and Confess all that. I was born  again and Baptized many years before I even knew those Scripture you are talking about was even in the Bible. And I don’t try to take away from them because they are there. I just half to pray The Lord if that is what He meant like you say , to give me knowledge and understanding on it.
Sammy Ford What name did every apostle baptize in after Jesus Christ instructed them to do in Matthew 28:19?
Ricky Grimsley Make another post and we can discuss the nature of Godhead.
Levi Chavis Ricky Grimsley, when you guys start a new thread, please send me an invite.
Louise Cummings Ricky Grimsley yes that’s a Good Name. Elohim is another Name. I can’t deny any of His names because they all had a Good meaning.
Sammy Ford Paul says that Christ is the head of all principalities and powers and that all of the fullness dwells in Christ bodily. Christ even said tithe apostles that all power in heaven and on earth has been given unto me and he told John in revelation that  I am the alpha and omega the first and the last the beginning and the ending and I am he who was once dead but forever alive. The book of Revelation is about the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
Sammy Ford The apostles baptized in the “name” that Christ told them to baptize in. The “name” of the Father Son and Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ. The Godhead dwells in Christ alone. There is no other “name” given by which we must be saved. Peter said that water baptism does also now save us.
Sammy Ford Jesus is our salvation
Dave Joshua SakalStupid?Let’s play,  you and I.Show me where the Bible ever says that a woman has an egg.Isn’t that what man calls it?Oh and I was accused of believing man over God.But since you say Mary was impregnated by the Holy Ghost  (and she was) do you believe that she was physically involved (sexually) with the Holy Ghost?Please answer, I’d like it on record.No she did not impregnate herself.I never said she did. I never implied it. You even saying that shows you do not understand what I have said. You read what you want to believe me to say instead of what I said.Mary was “over shadowed” by the Holy Ghost  (since you like scriptures)Luke 1:35And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the **power** of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.Simply put God through His Spirit **placed life* inside of Mary’s womb*.  NOW THAT IS POWER!You say it takes a seed and an egg.Did not God speak life into existence in Genesis? And you think He ALWAYS needs a “sperm” or male seed to create life.Sad, very weak.HE being God spoke in the beginning simply using words and there life, all life began.  No wait, so I am not branded a heretic God made man in His image from dust and woman from a rib, only a rib.  So glad God always needs seed (sperm) from the male. I will let you look up the scriptures if you don’t already know them.The prophecy to be fulfilled over Jesus’ birth was simple, very simple.Isa 7:14 fulfilled in Matt 1:23A virgin with a child. The how that actually happened was up to Him (as long as the male/man was not involved). All that had to happen was for that “seed of the woman” – you said egg because of your man backed man made schooling and training, to start subdividing and multiplying.  Is Your God not powerful enough to do that? (I did not ask about GOD, I asked about your god).You interpret “overshadow” as sexual contact. I interpret it as “showing up and causing her body to fall in line with God’s plan by supernatural cell division”.By the way,  that is not Blasphemy.Now since you did not understand my question on the Holy Spirit and our mothers allow me, ,,The Holy Spirit did indeed overshadow my mother. I was to be a miscarriage and the Spirit of God The Holy Spirit touched her and overshadowed her placing life back into me while I was in her womb. Notice I have not spoken ill of The Holy Ghost nor the birth of Jesus, you just perceived it as so.The difference between His birth having life placed in Mary’s womb and my mother is that my earthly father was needed and ordained by God to put me there and there was not male of man with Mary. Do I need to explain for you again so you get it this time?Sad that you and “your other buddy” don’t get it. Sad you did not ask for clarification before you two informed and enlighten individuals sat in judgement  (especially since the other guy told others in other threads that they (he actually said we) could not judge others.He asked, “what gives us the right to judge – sit in judgement”?..That is why your opinion of me does not mean anything in my eyes.My Holy Ghost Intercessor and Comforter knows exactly how high of a regard He has in my opinion and life. PLEASE judge me. PLEASE.  For in doing so you place yourself in the same stance before God. Yeah, call me a fool, please do!If you think that I have blasphemed then have one of the Church of God readers report me to Cleveland TN  and forward the thread. I will gladly answer the charges face to face. They can find me,  there is only one Dave. I pastor in Dunn, NC.And not only do I call myself a preacher, the Denomination does and the one who called and chose me, God my Father.As always it has been enjoyable.Pastor DaveDunn Church of GodDunn, NC
Sammy Ford Sorry David but you blasphemed the Holy Spirit so you can spin your myths to some body else and I won’t waste my time talking to you anymore. SHAMEFUL!
Dave Get over  yourself. Go ahead and judge me in your ignorance.One more thing you will answer for.My God,  the Holy Trinity – Father, Son, Spirit knows how highly held in regard they are in my life.  Just as they were exalted during both services today.😎
Sammy Ford David your in your own mess so deep that you can’t even admit when your wrong. Ha go ahead and worship false gods your no different than a Hindu. I suppose you have sunrise services during easter too.
Louise Cummings Another subject that some people believe.
Dave Joshua SakalI stand on what I have posted and said.If you think I am off base then forward the thread to the International Offices of the CoG for them to examine me.No I don’t need a sunrise service. I have lost nothing nor anyone in a graveyard. You meant the days of Passover – not Easter – correct? (who is the heathen now?).Anything else you want to guess at? I don’t need your acceptance.I will admit I am wrong when I am.Hindu no different than me?, you need to go do your homework on Both.There is but ONE God, One Lord.I am not going to list all of the scripture of God Being Father, Father being Holy Ghost (that is the thought set forth by Levi), Holy Ghost being God, Jesus being the Word, Word being with God and the Word Being God And the Word coming in the flesh.  I will also forego listing He (Jesus) and the Father are one.The Lord is one, no question (all of God is one with and in Himself).I’ll let you go do your homework On the Godhead. As I have listed it previously “Godhead” is mentioned three times within scripture and it has a differing meaning each time.Acts 17:29 theiosRomans 1:20 theiotesColossians 2:9 theotesThis does not yet include Phil 2:6-8THE FORM of God – theos – yet IN FASHION AS a man.HE was the very “essence” of God.They are The one God. All fully God, United in purpose and “essence” eternally existing always.You believe any different and you either get 2 or 3 gods as you accuse me of, or you get one God expressing as 3 which is not what the scripture says at all.(I’ll let you do the leg work, I gave you the road signs).So sorry you can’t grasp the truth of God’s character and existence. I will give you respect where it is due.If the picture on your page is you with the police unifirm, K-9, and cruiser, then I will leave you alone out of respect for my best friend  (an officer of 31 years in GA).Thank you for your service.I just hate you can’t get it.
Sammy Ford Bye bye antichrist
Dave Ty for the compliment
Dave AntichristLoLIf I am antichrist, when did I deny Jesus came in the flesh?You are ignorant Joshua SakalGood day officer.Thank you for your service.
Sammy Ford Bye bye antichrist
Dave Lol
Dave
Sammy Ford You’ve proven your antichrist spirit. Bye bye antichrist
Dave Lol,And you prove your ignorance and you truly can’t understand scripture. Allow meWho confess notThat Jesus Christ Is comeIn the fleshThis is a deceiverAndAnAnti-christ.😎
Dave
Sammy Ford You fit the bill antichrist
Dave
Louise Cummings i thin I erased where you were starting to say something. Or did I write your name on there. Just wondering which one of these little is you. Oh I see. One of them is Joshua Sakal and one is Dave. Lol. I’d say you two are twins.  Who knows who the antichrist is. ?  Do you. ?
Sammy Ford It’s well deserved.
Ricky Grimsley Joshua Sakal you are out of line.  Dave is a man of God and to be treated with respect. Your allegations are baseless.
Dave Ty Ricky, That means a lot considering we have had disagreements and worked through them respectfully.
Sammy Ford He is no man of God. His claim of three gods is antichrist. Paul said that if any man comes to us preaching anything other than what they preach then he is accursed. David fits that bill so yes he is antichrist.
Dave When did I say 3 gods you imbecile
Sammy Ford You claim three in one. You can’t have both it’s either one or three. Make up your mind
Dave One God eternal existing in three persons.God is not a personage.God is a Spirit.
Ricky Grimsley Joshua Sakal are you 3 or 1?
Sammy Ford See you claim three persons. One is one and three us three. You are a antichrist blasphemer
Sammy Ford There is only one God Ricky
Dave Exactly
Dave Who is He Joshua Sakal
Dave By the way Joshua SakalEven if I believed 3, define biblically antichrist.I have NEVER said that Jesus was not the son of God birth in the flesh.Get over yourself.
Sammy Ford You either believe only one or three you can’t have it both ways david
Ricky Grimsley Joshua Sakal everyone here knows there is one God
Sammy Ford He just claimed three persons in one that is absurd. It’s either one or three.
Ricky Grimsley None of us believe in three Gods
Sammy Ford David does
Dave Joshua SakalNo I don’t,  screen shot that,  in context
Dave
Ricky Grimsley Joshua are you one person or three?
Sammy Ford You keep using context at an excuse. There isn’t three persons only one.
Sammy Ford Ricky Grimsley I guess you are going to use body and spirit as one soul?
Dave Joshua SakalYou can prove anything or if context, If you have a leg to stand on post it.If you can’t do it in context then you know you are wrong.Point blank ask me.You can’t even explain the Godhead.And I spoon feed uou.
Dave Joshua SakalYou have an issue with three persons or one God?Did not your Saviour point blank say that God was a spirit? (Be careful I feel a trap coming).
Sammy Ford The Bible says that the fullness of the godhead dwells in Christ bodily. What else needs to be explained?
Dave Three places godhead is mentioned and explained. Each of the three times godhead has differing meanings,So I give you the floor,By all three explain your god.
Sammy Ford I know there is only One God. You are the one confused. You can’t even explain what you claim
Ricky Grimsley Jesus is the express image of the invisible. Sooo does that not mean there is an “invisible” and an “image” and yet one god
Sammy Ford Jesus was the visible image of the invisible God. Jesus was a man not a god.
Sammy Ford Can God die?
Ricky Grimsley Numbers 23:19 KJVS[19] God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it ? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?1 Timothy 2:5 KJVS[5] For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Sammy Ford Thank you Ricky for confirming. Jesus was not God he was the son of God.
Ricky Grimsley John 8:58 KJVS[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
Dave John 5:18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.Those that were there and understood the language perfectly knew exactly what jesus,said and meant.Jesus was “equal with” God.He was God.Jesus never said He was the Father, but he did say the He was God.AND HE DID IT IN MORE THAN ONE PLACE.
Sammy Ford Ricky Grimsley I agree, Yah means “I am”.
Sammy Ford David God is not a man he is a spirit and Jesus died on the cross for our sins. God cannot die. Another thing what does “messiah” mean?
Ricky Grimsley And this?  John 17:5 KJVS[5] And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
Ricky Grimsley God became a man.
Sammy Ford Ricky Jesus was predestined to die for our sin before the foundation of the world.
Sammy Ford Ricky Grimsley no. God had a son who was the firstborn of this creation who was born to die for our sin.
Ricky Grimsley John 1:1-3,14 KJVS[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] The same was in the beginning with God. [3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. [14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Sammy Ford That “word” is logos in the Greek that means spoken word. And the word became flesh… the spoken word became flesh… Jesus. God literally spoke his word into Mary and she was pregnant.
Dave Can God die?Did Jesus die?Can a dead man that willingly lays down His life take it up again if He is truly dead “as we know it”?Jesus was in the form of a servant in the fashion of a man Phil 2:6-8.You misunderstand death.Do you believe that Christ (God) died a soulful/spiritual death?Can God die?Did God die?You form theology in your mind to explain the unexplainable.You try to remove the God element from human existence.
Sammy Ford Jesus the man died on the cross for our sins and God raised him from the dead to fulfill the prophecy of King David. Acts2
Sammy Ford So stop saying God became a man
Sammy Ford To say that Jesus didn’t really die is blaspheming
Dave Joshua SakalPRAISE BE TO GOD THE FATHER! Quote from youThat “word” is logos in the Greek that means spoken word. And the word became flesh… the spoken word became flesh… Jesus. God literally spoke his word into Mary and she was pregnant.End quote.You and your fast friend Levi are at odds now with that statement because that is not what He has relayed to us in previous replies.He was the Word (logos) because1) prophecy had been given throughout history and the spoken Word had to be performedNumbers 23:19 covers God’s Word.2) as you said God did speak to Mary’s womb as the Holy Spirit overshadowed her causing life in the form of the incarnated Christ to take shape within her.Now, with God’s word making Mary pregnant the word was made “became flesh” and dwelt among us and we beheld his gloryJohn 1:14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.But if he was simply a man being the son of God how then did that man make all things before He was born?John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.What does that make HIM?
Dave Joshua SakalThere you go again.I did not say that Jesus did not die. I asked you how a man that did die “according to man’s knowledge of death” could take up his life on his own again?Did he say that he laid it down to take it up again?John 10:17-18Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.What did Jesus say of death when He spoke of Lazarus and the rulers daughter?
Sammy Ford .
Dave Good night for now
Sammy Ford Don’t leave yet
Sammy Ford Jesus was a man born of Mary and Him is God.
Sammy Ford You make assumption of the Bible when Peter said in acts 2 that God raised the man Jesus from the dead. The Bible does not argue with itself David. It is infallible
Sammy Ford I don’t know why I even try to explain the Bible to you David you can’t even count. 1=1 and 3=3
Sammy Ford You also contradict yourself David because you said that Jesus was the seed of Mary but you just said thatJesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. You are so confused
Dave Joshua SakalLoLActs 2,Oh I am gonna love this. Acts 2 God raised Him from the dead exactly.But easy here my friend…If Jesus is your SaviourWhat did He say?Did he say that he laid it down to take it up again?John 10:17-18Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from me,but I lay it down of myself.I have power to lay it down,andI have power to take it again.This commandment haveI receivedof my Father.Do you deny Jesus? So if Jesus took up his life Again  (giggling)And God raised Him from the dead  (giggling)Who is Jesus? (Rolling in th floor laughing out loud).Let’s seeThe Father (God) gave command, The Son took up His life  (being God)And oh yes it was done by the Spirit of God (Spirit of the Father).Romans 8:11The same Spirit that will raise us.The same Spirit that is The Spirit of ChristRomans 8:11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.SoAccording to your Bible JoshuaExplain how the Spirit of the Father,  the Spirit of God must dwell within you for a hope of resurrection.Yet we have the the Spirit of Christ His Dwelling within us  Gal 4:6.Do you have two Spirits dwelling within you?LoL.The issue is not what I an saying, The issue is what you are hearing due to your lack of study and not rightly dividing the Word of Truth.You are correct, the Bible does not argue with itself, it is infallible.So the the issue is you. So how many Spirits are in you?(Be careful I am leading you to a time of decision).
Dave Now as far as the seed of Mary,You have not read my previous posts.I have covered this for your ignorant self.Did the Holy Ghost overshadow Mary?Was she a Virgin?Was it her womb/uterus that held him?(I will go slow for you)SeedOfEve – the  woman. Gen 3A virgin with child IsaYes I said that Jesus was the Seed of Mary.Do you beloved that the Holy Ghost put a seed (as men know it) inside of Mary as He overshadowed her? – I don’t think it is strange that you have not answered that simply straight forward question any time I ask you. (Because you are afraid to answer of you can’t explain it).I am not confused,  you just can’t grasp it. And apparently you are too proud to admit that it is OK to not be able to explain God with our human limitations and finite abilities.1= 1 God3= personages of the Godhead. Yeah yeah I know but until you can explain the 3 different uses within the Bible of the Godhead in the three differing places, meaning the different things (or should I say revealing 3 different things about the Godhead) I shake my head at you.You speak of things you have not even researched. Brother,  I DON’T. .. I do my homework before I speak so if you want to go 1=1, 3=3 I am more than willing to. Yeah,  research the Godhead  (in all 3 places) and step up.Oh why notFor fun, do those three and add the way they line up perfectly with Phil 2:6-8.Why have you not addressed these Joshua?You always want scripture.Come on bro, Get in the scriptures and let’s go you and me.Are not you the same guy that is willing to research the “watcher’s” recommended to you by Levi Chavis?Are you not more than interested in his extra biblical sources stating that satan was not created but was the seed and offspring of a watcher?Are you not the one that is more that willing to look into Mestama?And you want to teach me on the Virgin Birth and seed.Please,  let’s do this you and I.Please research the scriptures on the Godhead so you can catch up and we can divide scripture on the level you have yet to obtain.You think I am confused and blasphemed, You do not have not can you handle this discussion yet. Yeah, please get up to par and let’s do this.1=13=31 God3 persons LoLI wait for you my friend.I wait for you.
Sammy Ford David I will agree with Levi on something and that is you are void of God. Any person with sense knows that God is the father of Jesus and not Mary aka Son of God. You blasphemed again so I will say no more to you because you are a moron. You are so caught up in trying to be right that you turn to absurd theories that aren’t even in the Bible. You are a poor excuse for a so-called man of God. Other people on here laugh at your absurdities on messenger when they write me asking if you are really serious and they are Assembly of God. You are warped and mentally ill David I hope God forgives you for your blasphemy against him. You are a perfect example of what Paul said where they have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. Bye bye antichrist follower
Dave You idiot I never said that Mary was Jesus’ Father. Please produce that screen shot.
Sammy Ford You said Jesus was the seed of Mary you moron. You are seriously mentally unstable.
Sammy Ford I wont waste my time any more on a reprobate that is void of God like you David.
Ricky Grimsley Genesis 3:15 KJVS[15] And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Dave I also seed you could not produce by scripture that a woman ever had an egg (that is the human,  secular term).Quote me exactly you novice.Did you ever learn reading comprehension ?
Ricky Grimsley Joshua sakal you words are not becoming of a Christian right now
Sammy Ford Ricky Grimsley I don’t care what you call me because David is antichrist and Paul said if any man come preaching another gospel than what we preach let him be accursed. Davis is accursed. The things he is saying are disgusting and blasphemy. You shouldn’t associate yourself with such a disgusting person.
Ricky Grimsley Thats ridiculous.
Dave You even missed where I agreed with Levi on The Holy Ghost being used by the Father to cause life (Jesus) in Mary’s womb.If you really believe that the “seed” as you and Levi imagine seed, came from the Holy Ghost.Here are titles for Jesus, Maybe you need to go look at why they are used.Son of GodSon of DavidSon of man – oh yes He did call himself the son of man (really – I thought the Holy Ghost was his Father (and He is BOTH). Matt 8:20 look it up, also Matt 9:6Luke 21:27 is AWESOME!Luke 21:27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.GLORY. Who is coming back for us? Sonof Man – without the seed of the man.Lol,You just can’t understand. Please do your homework.
Dave Yes, Jesus is the son of God by the Holy Spirit overshadowing MaryAnd yes Jesus is the son of man (yet without a man)Mary was (hu)man.And He is the Son of David.Do you get it Joshua Sakal?Do I need to explain it for you? Still waiting of your homework on the Godhead.
Dave Ricky GrimsleyI just wish he would learn to read and comprehend what he read.
Sammy Ford He is a joke of a preacher so don’t defend your friend Ricky
Dave Lol, Ricky can tell you,  we don’t always agree. We have had our heated debates.Wow, Joshua you just don’t get it. You are so beside yourself you are blinded. You know what,  if I have you that sidetracked,  God put his error on my account. It isn’t worth him getting that upset and bitter over a misunderstood verbal slight and poison pill.
Dave I believe after looking at JoshuaSakal’s page that he and I do not believe too differently.He and Levi just do not understand the use of a “poison pill” as they are used during debating.At this point.It does not matter what they think of me.Those who have read my posts on this forum up to this thread know what I believe and what I am about.
Sammy Ford You have proven one thing David and that you are a blasphemer of God with your disgusting rhetoric. Bye bye antichrist.
Dave Sorry you don’t know what the definition of blasphemy against the Holy Ghost is
Sammy Ford You blaspheme the conception of Christ
Ricky Grimsley Please screenshot an excerpt of Daves blasphemy?
Sammy Ford
Dave Ricky GrimsleyHave him post it in context,It is a poison pill of a lengthy 3 way conversation.
Ricky Grimsley No biggie. I know you belief in the trinity.
Louise Cummings In 1 st John 2: 22.   Read that. I’m not going to get in this discussion.
Dave Oh,  I fully believe in the Father and Son. Don’t forget the Holy Ghost.Louise Cummings.
Louise Cummings I believed that Jesus is the Christ. I believe in the Father and the Son. I believe He was conceived of the Holy Spirit. I believe in One God Eternally existing in three persons. The Father , The Son And. The Holy Ghost. And I believe these Tree are One. The Holy Spirit was mentioned. So The Son recognized The Father. And The Father recognized The Son. So I recognize all three. I do believe they were one manifested in Three Persons. Or The Bible talks about all three.
Dave Amen Louise Cummings amen
Louise Cummings David Lawrence Porter. You two are a beautiful couple. And also beautiful family.
Louise Cummings I saw a picture of a young man the other day that was a handsome man. Was that Joshua Sakal. I didn’t see a family then. I don’t know how to down load pictures. It’s possible if y’all went to my page you might get into it. It possible you would have to be a friend to get in. My daughter Shirley Cummings McSpadden she has an open face book I think because of recording our Church services. Sunday and Sunday night And Wednesday night. One of my son in laws travels with a dogging group. (Propose) is their group name. And one daughter that her husband Pastor our Church. And one daughter that is divorced. I shouldn’t tell that. And two sons. One got one business of his own and works at Electric Dept. And the third term on City Council. The other has worked in the office at pilgrims Pride for years.
Louise Cummings Sorry I used your name or reckon it was you. I don’t think straight sometimes. I didn’t think any thing about it. I’ve always been the type of person that I would hear preach on the Radio. We didn’t have tv back then. But I would imagine a face with that preacher. And in time I have met them. And they didn’t look nothing like I had imagined in my mind lol I thought they would look. I was just reading back over my answers and noticed had written do you think that was you. I sure hop you didn’t take that wrong. A lot of the people has their face book. Which dose t mean anything but you can put a face with it. When I read over that I thought that might not sound right. If I offended pleas forgive me. But I do that all time. The reason I put a family with the other was they had pictures by their comment. So I assumed they were family. But I shouldn’t be assuming. I always know there wouldn’t care  nothing about seeing mine.  I just saw how that sounded. And I thought that wasn’t worded just right. I’m sorry if you took it the wrong way.
Louise Cummings That was suppose to be. Sings with a singing group. But works also. I after I saw your nice family got me to telling you about mine. I guess the most boring things you have read today.
Dave Nice to meet you my brother and friend. Sorry for any misrepresented and poorly phrased thoughts on this thread. If I was a blasphemer or did not hold to sound doctrine I would have never made Bishop within the Church of God much less be pastoring. Thank you for your input and comments.
Louise Cummings Dave  nice to meet you. But I’m a lady. My logo beside my writings is my son. He’s writing a song. Everyone just seems to like that picture beside my page. You don’t miss anything by not seeing my picture anyway. My husband passed toHeaven five years ago. I sure have missed him. I don’t mean to be taking over others thoughts on here. But I just love discussing The Bible. If I ever hinder your conversations , just let me know. I guess I shouldn’t always getting into you all conversations. But I love the Word. It seems almost like I have come to know you all. And I do have some friends on here. That they are so kind and good people. They do seem like family.
Dave Sorry sister,  still nice to met you.Please forgive the error.Sorry for your loss, We will be with your husband and the rest of the great cloud of witnesses very shortly.
Louise Cummings We sure will. That’s enough to make you shout.
Louise Cummings That’s ok thin a brother. My son picture beside the side of my logo what ever you call it. Ant it has nothing to do with putting just one son there when I have two sons and three daughters. I’m so thankful and proud of them all. It’s because he wrote a song in remembrance of his daddy. When he went to Heaven. The Name of the song is Thanks Dad. They played it on our radio many times during Father’s Day. You use to be able to pull it up on You Tube. Thanks Dad be Gary Cummings. The last I heard someone trying to pull it up they couldn’t get it. I don’t know if it’s still on or not. That’s the reason everyone likes his picture because of Gary. My son.
Troy Day Ricky Grimsley You never said plainly what you really believe per this OP?
Louise Cummings Dr. Troy Day. And Ricky Grimsley. I never was ask what I believed. I was just looking over face book. And found Pentecostal Theology. And I like studies of the Bible. Theology and solid ways of learning. On something you said one day. I perceived you must be a professor or someone with deep knowledge of the Bible. So I said you must me a professor or something. And you outing on my face book requesting friends. I thought that was an honor that you would ask my friend ship. I would just give a comment sometimes or ask a question. I didn’t ever give it the first thought of people thinking I was a man unless it was because my sons picture was by my quotes. My name is Louise a girls name. Now I know men named Louis. But not Louise I thought everyone would know that is a lady. And I have seen ladies on here making comments before. So I thought it was an honor that you would ask. But as I have written before. Actually my Daddy’s whole family was Church Of Christ. My Mothers family was Baptist. My grand mother died in child birth. So that left my Mother to help raise her brothers and sisters. My grandfather was a traveling Evangelist.  When mother and daddy got married my mother was already Baptist. And my daddy and mother both went to the Baptist church. So I was raised Baptist. When I was a teenager we moved to Spring Valley Al. Near Tuscumbia Al. We lived close to the Church Of God. My Niece got me started going there. They shouted but so did the Baptist I was raised in. So I got Hungary for The Holy Ghost. The Bible tells us if we hunger and thirst after Righteousness shall be filled. So one night in a youth service , God filled me with The Holy Ghost. Not long after. I was called to preach. I was still in school. My best friends in school didn’t know how to take me. I told them. I’m just a person like you are. The Lord really made a big change in my life. I knew God led me there. And I knew The Lord had made a change in me. My daddy and Mother never tried to stop me. I started preaching somewhere around fifteen years old. And I prayed before I married that the Lord would led me to a person that would love God. And give me Children that would love the Lord and sing and make music. And what ever he wanted them to do. I have five children. They all sing. All but one can play a musical instrument. And God gave it to them. I have one grandson that took it in college. But he played many different musical instrument. I do have license in the Church Of God. My Son in law is the pastor of our church. I don’t know everything. But I have put much study to the Bible. I have never gotten to go to a seminar. But would have loved to. I’ve preached one week and half Revival before I married. And a two week Revival after I married. Then raising children it been mostly week ends and fill in when a pastor would resign. Until they got a Pastor for that Church. I’m still in The Church Of God. And still preaching. When I have a chance. My health and me getting older. I can’t go like I use to. I have a thirty minute program on TV on Thursday Nights. It’s doesn’t reach out very far. My husband went to be with The Lord five years ago. I was not meaning to deceive anyone. But I thought everyone would know Louise was a girl  or now a lady. I have enjoyed this and have more friends on here. But if I’m in the way. Or I don’t fit you mold. You can just remove my name. I don’t mean to hurt anyone. Not ever. But if I don’t understand it as they do. I always explain what I think is right. Thank you.
Louise Cummings What does OP mean.
Ricky Grimsley Louise Cummings Original Post
Louise Cummings Thank you. And I didn’t really know the OP here either. But I think I know enough about the Bible that I know false doctrine when I hear it. I think false doctrine is more than just misunderstanding the Bible. And some times questions and answers can help you understand. False doctrine is simply teaching a doctrine that’s not Biblical.
Ricky Grimsley I believe in the gap theory. Lucifer sinned first and God’s punishment in lucifer made the earth “with out form and void” and that Genesis is a re-creation.
Levi Chavis So you’re saying that the Almighty, All-Knowing God, made a mistake.
Ricky Grimsley God doesnt make mistakes. However, he has sovereignly chose to allow his creations to follow him of their free-will. That means there had to be tests and rules. Satan fell first and turned this is a competition. IMO. He wanted the worship and the throne and he made a play God is using Satan now to test us that may live forever and reign with him. Question is…..what shall we reign over? Revelation 22:5 KJVS[5] And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.
Levi Chavis The meek shall inherit the earth.
Levi Chavis There is no such thing as free will
Louise Cummings I know Dakes Bible teaches this. And some preachers that I have great confidence in. Teaches it to.   I just couldn’t understand it the way some people seem to.
Louise Cummings That Heavenly City , I believe New Jerusalem coming down from God out of Heaven. The Bible says after the Thousand Year ReignThe Bible says this Heaven and earth will Melt with a fervent heat and there will be a New Heaven and New earth. The reason I believe is because Satan has been there. God is pure. Can’t look upon sin.fire purifies. That’s the make pure gold. They have to put the heat to it. The impurities that comes up. I’ve been told they dip that off and where Metal or silver comes from. But pure Gold like the Bible talks about in Heaven. Will be clear. And God I believe made it that way because I t will be clear as Chrystal. When we walk through Heaven. Every where we look it will show a reflection of Christ. We Winn be able to see Him all over Heaven. What a wonderful Time. What a Hallelujah meeting. I think we are living in the end time. When Jesus will steps out on a cloud and the trumpet blows so loud it will wake up the dead Christians. And we which are alive and remain will be changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye and be caught up i together to meet the Lord in the air. So shall we be forever with Him. Even when He comes back to earth riding white horse. And we will be on white horses. To come to earth for a Thousand year Reign. At the end that’s when the sinners will rise. To stand before the white Throne of Judgment seat , to be Judged. That will be a sad day for sinners. I can’t hardly stand to think of people not being ready to meet the Lord. I think if sinners would just reall think about it. They would either get saved. Or loose their mind. But Satan is doing  his job deceiving people.
Louise Cummings God did make man to be able to make choices. You can choose God. Or refuse Him.
Levi Chavis If you can choose God, how can he be your Savior?
Louise Cummings Because you ask Him to be your God. That’s Choosing God.
Levi Chavis Christ saved us because we couldn’t save ourselves.
Louise Cummings Exactly.
Louise Cummings Can’t you see you have to choose. Read Romans think that the verse. But it is there close. If you confess Jesus with your Mouth and believe in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead. Thou shalt be saved. If that is not choosing God. I don’t know how you would choose. Joshua told the Children of Israel to choose you this day who you will serve. But as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.
Ricky Grimsley 2 Peter 1:10 KJVS[10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:Seems silly if we have no choices.
Levi Chavis If we choose Christ, then our salvation is up to us. If that were true, then we wouldn’t need a savior. Christ came to seek and save that which was lost.
Louise Cummings Yes He did. Some will follow. Some will not follow but if Christ hadn’t come. Who would go searching for us. It took The Blood of a Spotless Lamb. Jesus Christ was the only one worthy. If Jesus hadn’t Come and died on the Cross for us. We would still be under the Law. With out a chance of Salvation. And we would still be in our sins.
Levi Chavis You are correct about one thing Louise. If the Old Law was able to save us through the blood of bulls and goats, there wouldn’t have been a need for the blood of Christ. In saying that, we could not save ourselves which is why Christ was born; to be our Savior through his sacrifice. After all, when Christ was born, the angel said that he was to be called Jesus, for he shall save his people from their sins.

 

322 Comments

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    The common answer is YES

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    The common answer is YES

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Joe Absher

    The Bible introduces the devil as a seducer of men and subverter of God’s will

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Joe Absher

    The Bible introduces the devil as a seducer of men and subverter of God’s will

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Peter Fiske

    The answer is yes, however it was within the first 100 years after Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31). Ezekiel 28:13-15 tells us that Lucifer was a good angel, and anointed cherub in the Garden of Eden. Verse 15 goes on to say that wickedness was found in him. This happened before the events of Genesis 3, when Lucifer, now Satan, either took the form of a serpent, or inhabited the body of a serpent, and tempted Adam and Eve.

    There was never a time before Adam, known as a pre-Adamic world where Lucifer fell and where that supposed and totally mythical world was destroyed by some imaginary event called Lucifer’s flood.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Peter Fiske

    The answer is yes, however it was within the first 100 years after Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31). Ezekiel 28:13-15 tells us that Lucifer was a good angel, and anointed cherub in the Garden of Eden. Verse 15 goes on to say that wickedness was found in him. This happened before the events of Genesis 3, when Lucifer, now Satan, either took the form of a serpent, or inhabited the body of a serpent, and tempted Adam and Eve.

    There was never a time before Adam, known as a pre-Adamic world where Lucifer fell and where that supposed and totally mythical world was destroyed by some imaginary event called Lucifer’s flood.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Joe Absher

    I don’t remember nothing about no 100 year mark in Genesis 1-3 or 4,5,6,7…
    Unless I’m missing something. Is that from counting up the ages of Adam and Eve?

    • Reply June 6, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      The approximately 100 years is an estimate considering the fact that Genesis 5:2 tells us that Adam was 130 when Seth was born, and Genesis 4:25 tells us that God gave Seth to Adam and Eve as a replacement for Abel, who Cain murdered. Using scripture to interpret scripture, we see that Adam and Eve must have fallen around 100 years after Creation Week, since the events of Genesis 3 precede the birth of Seth and the death of Abel.

    • Reply June 6, 2018

      Joe Absher

      Thanks I was working with a guy I didn’t get a chance to look over it. Praise report one saved by Narcan!

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Joe Absher According to Fiske, Adam could have stayed in the Garden up to an age of around 100 years before he was thrown out of Eden, and started having children, so that Seth was born by the time he was 130 years old. HOWEVER, this is calculating Adam’s age from the time of his creation. BUT, according to Steve Webb on another thread, Adam’s age may not have started at creation but started when he sinned (kind of like still being in eternity). In this case, Adam and Eve’s stay in the Garden would have been indefinite and could have been thousands, millions, or billions of years; kind of like a post Eden gap theory. Here Adam would remain less than a year old for a long long time, until he sinned and started aging. Not saying I agree with any of this, but these are the two positions of Peter and Steve.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Joe Absher

    I don’t remember nothing about no 100 year mark in Genesis 1-3 or 4,5,6,7…
    Unless I’m missing something. Is that from counting up the ages of Adam and Eve?

    • Reply June 6, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      The approximately 100 years is an estimate considering the fact that Genesis 5:2 tells us that Adam was 130 when Seth was born, and Genesis 4:25 tells us that God gave Seth to Adam and Eve as a replacement for Abel, who Cain murdered. Using scripture to interpret scripture, we see that Adam and Eve must have fallen around 100 years after Creation Week, since the events of Genesis 3 precede the birth of Seth and the death of Abel.

    • Reply June 6, 2018

      Joe Absher

      Thanks I was working with a guy I didn’t get a chance to look over it. Praise report one saved by Narcan!

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Joe Absher According to Fiske, Adam could have stayed in the Garden up to an age of around 100 years before he was thrown out of Eden, and started having children, so that Seth was born by the time he was 130 years old. HOWEVER, this is calculating Adam’s age from the time of his creation. BUT, according to Steve Webb on another thread, Adam’s age may not have started at creation but started when he sinned (kind of like still being in eternity). In this case, Adam and Eve’s stay in the Garden would have been indefinite and could have been thousands, millions, or billions of years; kind of like a post Eden gap theory. Here Adam would remain less than a year old for a long long time, until he sinned and started aging. Not saying I agree with any of this, but these are the two positions of Peter and Steve. Forsaking either of these post-Eden gap theories, it is possible that Satan was roaming to and fro in the new Eden, waiting to get even with God, and came to tempt Eve on day 8 after God’s day of rest. Here, Adam and Eve would only have been in the Garden for two days before they were thrown out.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Peter Fiske Pls show us BIBLE book, chapter verse for “within the first 100 years after Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31). Ezekiel 28:13-15”

    Job and Ezekiel rightly counter your hypothesis and prove you completely wrong as to the Bible

    • Reply June 7, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Troy Day God told them to be fruitful and multiply. Having fruit happens in the first season, so it is likely that Eve became pregnant after her first menstrual period, and had her first child nine months later. However, Adam and Eve were thrown out of Eden with no child, so their stay was less than nine months and as early as a couple of weeks after they were created.

    • Reply June 7, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      yap – no time for Satan to be falling in the garden

      Also, the other theory that he fail before day 6 dont proof either

      When animals were created, they were created with Adam in mind – he was to name them; meaning to have authority over creation which Satan has already lost prior – way prior than day 6

    • Reply June 7, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Troy Day Actually,Satan would probably have come after Adam and Eve on the 6th day when they were created, except God was still around. And he couldn’t on the 7th, which is God’s day of rest. So, it is likely he approached Eve on the 8th day. Satan wasn’t going ot wait a hundred years, as he was hopping mad after being thrown out of heaven, and wanted revenge against God. “Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.” ( 1PE 5:8). He wanted to tempt them while they were young and naive, not later when they had wised up and learned obedience.

    • Reply June 7, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Hey Gary dont worry you pretty little head with hat on brother IF Fiske calculate it to be 100 so it is No way around. Fiskey way or now way. Let every other man be wrong 🙂

    • Reply June 7, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, there’s no indication that Adam and Eve didn’t have children when they were kicked out of Eden. The Bible just comments on Cain and Abel and then Seth, and the events of the first murder.

      Adam and Eve may have had many children before Cain and Abel, and they met to have been part of the move out of Eden when the events of Genesis 3 occurred. Just because children are aren’t mentioned doesn’t mean there where no children present when Adam and Eve kicked out of the Garden, it may be that those particular children weren’t necessary for the narrative as God told it and revealed it to Moses when he recorded Genesis. The truth is that Abel was murdered by Cain, and within a year, God had given Adam (when he was 130) and Eve Seth as a replacement for Abel (Genesis 5:2).

      That means that the fall of Man occurred some 100 years after Creation.

    • Reply June 7, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping ((Actually, Satan would probably have come after Adam and Eve on the 6th day))
      Sorry, but that just doesn’t jive with logic as Ezekiel 28:13-15 tells us that Lucifer was a good angel in Eden before iniquity was found in him. Lucifer was in Eden for a while, maybe 50 years, maybe less maybe more, until he had degenerated to estate of wickedness which cause God to expel him from Eden. The idea that all the events of Genesis 3 happened on day 6 is just a pathetic and a logical attempt by you to resurrect and Save the ridiculous I’m compromising pre-Adamite narrative and the imaginary Gap that it’s found in. What you’re doing is pushing heresy, adding things to scripture which God doesn’t hold kindly to (Deuteronomy 4:2-3; Revelation 22:18-19).

    • Reply June 7, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      So, do we now have a child gap, and an Eden gap too?

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Peter Fiske

      Gary Micheal Epping, Genesis doesn’t mention anything about children being in the Garden of Eden, although considering the fact that the historical high points of the narrative that God wanted us to know were recorded by Moses for our benefit.

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske If Adam had had other children while still in the garden, then they would have had the seed of perfection in them just like their parents. When the serpent came, he tempted only Adam and Eve, who were thrown out of Eden because of their sin. If there were other children in the garden that did not sin, there would have been no reason for God to remove them from the garden. They would not be children born of sin like Cain and Able. In this case, God would likely have pitched Adam,Eve, and Satan into the Lake of Fire, as this would eliminate the sin problem, and things could continue in perfection in the garden with the second generation of perfect beings. Of course, that would alter the whole era of Bible history. But, the Bible is clear that this did not happen.

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske You are the one that is ADDING to scripture by saying Adam and Eve lived in the Garden for 100 years; why not make it a thousand or a billion years. There is no evidence for a post-Eden gap theory. According to your definition, this is heresy. Whether the angels were created billions of years earlier or just before day 1, Lucifer was around to rejoice and watch God create the foundations of the earth. If he fell before day 6, he would have been foaming at the mouth and chomping at the bit to get even with God, and would tempt Eve at the first available opportunity, which would be day 8.

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske Now that we have shown that Adam and Eve had no children in the garden of Eden, it is time throw out the post-Eden gap theory of both Peter and Steve for good. If Adam and Eve lived in the garden for either a 100 or a billion years, it would be a sin during this time to not obey God when He “said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.” This sin would have happened quickly and caused them to be thrown out of Eden early on. The fact is, Adam and Eve obeyed God’s command to be fruitful and multiple, and she was likely pregnant on her first menstrual cycle, allowing her to have a baby nine months later. Nine months is the outer limit for their stay. The inner limit is on day 8 after God’s rest on day 7.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Peter Fiske Pls show us BIBLE book, chapter verse for “within the first 100 years after Creation Week (Genesis 1:1-31). Ezekiel 28:13-15”

    Job and Ezekiel rightly counter your hypothesis and prove you completely wrong as to the Bible

    • Reply June 7, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Troy Day God told them to be fruitful and multiply. Having fruit happens in the first season, so it is likely that Eve became pregnant after her first menstrual period, and had her first child nine months later. However, Adam and Eve were thrown out of Eden with no child, so their stay was less than nine months.

    • Reply June 7, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      yap – no time for Satan to be falling in the garden

      Also, the other theory that he fail before day 6 dont proof either

      When animals were created, they were created with Adam in mind – he was to name them; meaning to have authority over creation which Satan has already lost prior – way prior than day 6

    • Reply June 7, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Troy Day Actually,Satan would probably have come to tempt Adam and Eve on the 6th day when they were created, except God was still around. And he couldn’t on the 7th, which is God’s day of rest. So, it is likely he approached Eve on the 8th day. Satan wasn’t going ot wait a hundred years, as he was hopping mad after being thrown out of heaven, and wanted revenge against God. “Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.” ( 1PE 5:8). He wanted to tempt them while they were young and naive, not later when they had wised up and learned obedience.

    • Reply June 7, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Hey Gary dont worry you pretty little head with hat on brother IF Fiske calculate it to be 100 so it is No way around. Fiskey way or now way. Let every other man be wrong 🙂

    • Reply June 7, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      So, do we now have a child gap, and an Eden gap too?

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske If Adam had had other children while still in the garden, then they would have had the seed of perfection in them just like their parents. When the serpent came, he tempted only Adam and Eve, who were thrown out of Eden because of their sin. If there were other children in the garden that did not sin, there would have been no reason for God to remove them from the garden. They would not be children born of sin like Cain and Able. In this case, God would likely have pitched Adam,Eve, and Satan into the Lake of Fire, as this would eliminate the sin problem, and things could continue in perfection in the garden with the second generation of perfect beings. Of course, that would alter the whole era of Bible history. But, the Bible is clear that this did not happen.

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske You are the one that is ADDING to scripture by saying Adam and Eve lived in the Garden for 100 years; why not make it a thousand or a billion years. There is no evidence for a post-Eden gap theory. According to your definition, this is heresy. Whether the angels were created billions of years earlier or just before day 1, Lucifer was around to rejoice and watch God create the foundations of the earth. If he fell before day 6, he would have been foaming at the mouth and chomping at the bit to get even with God, and would tempt Eve at the first available opportunity, which would be day 8.

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Peter Fiske Now that we have shown that Adam and Eve had no children in the garden of Eden, it is time throw out the post-Eden gap theory of both Peter and Steve for good. If Adam and Eve lived in the garden for either a 100 or a billion years, it would be a sin during this time to not obey God when He “said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth.” This sin would have happened quickly and caused them to be thrown out of Eden early on. The fact is, Adam and Eve obeyed God’s command to be fruitful and multiple, and she was likely pregnant on her first menstrual cycle, allowing her to have a baby nine months later. Nine months is the outer limit for their stay. The inner limit is on day 8 after God’s rest on day 7.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Peter Fiske

    Troy Day, read what I wrote, unless you’re dyslexic, as I suggested earlier. Adam and Eve were in the garden approximately 100 years, because Adam was 130 when Seth was born(Genesis 5:3), and Seth was given by God to Adam as a replacement for Abel whom Cain murdered (Genesis 4:25). The events of Genesis 3 apparently occurred shortly before all these events, perhaps 20 or so years. Nevertheless, you can’t show any Scripture that teaches a make-believe Gap, and millions of imaginary years just to make your convicted felon icon (under the Mann Act) Finis Dake look smart.

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Your idea that Satan in Gen 3 came to tempt Eve a hundred years after they had been in the garden does not hold water, as it is full of holes. In a hundred years, Adam and Eve would not need to eat of the Tree of Life, as they would have grown in knowledge and wisdom by living with God every day. They would have learned the importance of obedient, and laughed at Satan when he tried to tempt them. Only a young and naive Eve could be approached by Satan with any hopes that his temptations would lead to sin. Only one time frame is available when the pair were vulnerable to Satan. It could have been as early as day 8, or as long maybe 8 months later (with her getting pregnant on her first menstrual cycle). Satan knew the sooner the better chance for a naive Eve to yield to his temptation. Likely, this happened in just a few days.

    • Reply June 9, 2018

      Pete Fiske

      Gary, neither you or the admin on this site, both blinded Dake disciples, have been unable to show that Ezekiel 28 doesn’t speak of Lucifer being in the Garden of Eden, and being a good angel before he was found to have sin in him, and was removed from God’s perfect presence.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Peter Fiske

    Troy Day, read what I wrote, unless you’re dyslexic, as I suggested earlier. Adam and Eve were in the garden approximately 100 years, because Adam was 130 when Seth was born(Genesis 5:3), and Seth was given by God to Adam as a replacement for Abel whom Cain murdered (Genesis 4:25). The events of Genesis 3 apparently occurred shortly before all these events, perhaps 20 or so years. Nevertheless, you can’t show any Scripture that teaches a make-believe Gap, and millions of imaginary years just to make your convicted felon icon (under the Mann Act) Finis Dake look smart.

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Your idea that Satan in Gen 3 came to tempt Eve a hundred years after they had been in the garden does not hold water, as it is full of holes. In a hundred years, Adam and Eve would not need to eat of the Tree of Life, as they would have grown in knowledge and wisdom by living with God every day. They would have learned the importance of obedient, and laughed at Satan when he tried to tempt them. Only a young and naive Eve could be approached by Satan with any hopes that his temptations would lead to sin. Only one time frame is available when the pair were vulnerable to Satan. It could have been as early as day 8, or as long maybe 8 months later (with her getting pregnant on her first menstrual cycle). Satan knew the sooner the better chance for a naive Eve to yield to his temptation. Likely, this happened in just a few days.

    • Reply June 9, 2018

      Pete Fiske

      Gary, neither you or the admin on this site, both blinded Dake disciples, have been unable to show that Ezekiel 28 doesn’t speak of Lucifer being in the Garden of Eden, and being a good angel before he was found to have sin in him, and was removed from God’s perfect presence.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Joe Absher

    Giving out diagnoses of disability because someone disagrees with you is unacceptable.
    And don’t forget Moses was a stone cold killer. Having looked both ways before murdering a man. He was a felon and a fugitive when he met God in the burning bush. So you allow for redemption or you don’t. In fact you might be dishonoring the cross and the work of Christ.
    But stick around you haven’t seen nothing yet. They’ll say you’re not saved or have no Holy Spirit or a false prophet if they disagree you. To keep it real I told a man he had a seared conscience once myself. He was promoting liquor. Saying “if you want to be like Jesus you’ll drink alcohol” I deleted. Or edited or something. But I felt bad about. You could do the same. It gets heated but try to clean it up. Especially if it’s topic you care about. It’s like you disqualified yourself

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Joe Absher

    Giving out diagnoses of disability because someone disagrees with you is unacceptable.
    And don’t forget Moses was a stone cold killer. Having looked both ways before murdering a man. He was a felon and a fugitive when he met God in the burning bush. So you allow for redemption or you don’t. In fact you might be dishonoring the cross and the work of Christ.
    But stick around you haven’t seen nothing yet. They’ll say you’re not saved or have no Holy Spirit or a false prophet if they disagree you. To keep it real I told a man he had a seared conscience once myself. He was promoting liquor. Saying “if you want to be like Jesus you’ll drink alcohol” I deleted. Or edited or something. But I felt bad about. You could do the same. It gets heated but try to clean it up. Especially if it’s topic you care about. It’s like you disqualified yourself

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Peter Fiske

    Joe Absher, ((diagnoses of disability because someone disagrees with you is unacceptable))
    Uh huh, and Troy Day referring to me in disparaging terminologies like “extraterrestrial” or “yapper” because I dismantled his argumentation supporting the false doctrine that is the Gap Theory, is acceptable, right?

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Peter Fiske

    Joe Absher, ((diagnoses of disability because someone disagrees with you is unacceptable))
    Uh huh, and Troy Day referring to me in disparaging terminologies like “extraterrestrial” or “yapper” because I dismantled his argumentation supporting the false doctrine that is the Gap Theory, is acceptable, right?

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Peter Fiske Would you please keep your comments to the topic at hand. This is not a place to pick pick a fight with any and everybody. Discuss theology and it shall be well with you

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Peter Fiske Would you please keep your comments to the topic at hand. This is not a place to pick pick a fight with any and everybody. Discuss theology and it shall be well with you

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Peter Fiske

    Troy Day, I stay on topic most of the time, that is until you and others who lose in debate start insulting and name-calling.

    • Reply June 6, 2018

      Joe Absher

      I think you’re a child of God and a good Bible student.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Peter Fiske

    Troy Day, I stay on topic most of the time, that is until you and others who lose in debate start insulting and name-calling.

    • Reply June 6, 2018

      Joe Absher

      I think you’re a child of God and a good Bible student.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Fiske like I said above stay on topic Otherwise your comments are not at all valuble to the group

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Fiske like I said above stay on topic Otherwise your comments are not at all valuble to the group

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Joe Absher

    I didn’t read his comments lol

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Joe Absher

    I didn’t read his comments lol

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Joe Absher

    Yes the devil is an unrepentant sinner and some folks take right after him. No wonder Jesus said the your father is the devil hisself.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Joe Absher

    Yes the devil is an unrepentant sinner and some folks take right after him. No wonder Jesus said the your father is the devil hisself.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Joe Absher

    Don’t make to many assumptions brother. There’s been lively discussions on Mr Dake, his annotated bible.

  • Reply June 6, 2018

    Joe Absher

    Don’t make to many assumptions brother. There’s been lively discussions on Mr Dake, his annotated bible. Besides getting kicked out is healthy. I got kicked off before. Give it a month.

  • Reply June 7, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Peter Fiske Pls stay on topic. You;ve been a member for over 4 years as well as your other alias Pete Fiske If it was about kicking you it could have been done 4 yrs ago. But everyone’s patience has its .limit

  • Reply June 7, 2018

    Peter Fiske

    Troy Day, your the one who has been waffling all over the place in terms of topic, as well as using ad-hominems to describe me in order to discredit the truth, which is that there is no Gap in Genesis, and all the other associated junk theology associated with it. Just let go of this nonsense! We all know that the word of God is true, but the Gap is a Satanic perversion of the truth at a very foundational level. Search your feelings research the evidence, you’ll know that I’m right.

  • Reply June 7, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Do you think this is fundamental or cultural Terry Wiles

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Terry Wiles

      No!

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      why?

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Terry Wiles

      It is Biblical. He opposed God. God showed him who God is.

      It is not cultural because a culture is a society which by nature requires other societies. It is not fundamental because God is not a principle.

      God, by His declaration is “I Am.”

      That do you think, Troy Day?

  • Reply June 7, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Do you think this is fundamental or cultural Terry Wiles

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Terry Wiles

      No!

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      why?

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Terry Wiles

      It is Biblical. He opposed God. God showed him who God is.

      It is not cultural because a culture is a society which by nature requires other societies. It is not fundamental because God is not a principle.

      God, by His declaration is “I Am.”

      That do you think, Troy Day?

  • Reply June 8, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping this topic is similar to what you asked me in the other OP Terry Wiles is making a valid point. Satan opposed GOD which resulted in a fall that came with changes in the nature of the creation as well

    Sin entered the Creation through Satan
    Sin entered human kind through Satan tempting Eve and Adam

    natural science, evolution theoretix, young earthers, flat earther, yappers and so on STILL cannot tell us WHEN was the fall of Satan

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      True. The Ez 28 and IS 12 passages on the fall of Lucifer speak of kings gazing at him, and weakening the nations. This definitely was not true during Adam and Eve’s time in the garden, or during the 6 days of creation. This is proof that Satan fell before Gen 1:2, and gives support for the gap theory.

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Tell me something I dont know 🙂 Where do we disagree on our explanations?

    • Reply June 9, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      We don’t.

    • Reply June 9, 2018

      Pete Fiske

      The fall of Lucifer occurred after creation and before the events of Genesis 3 when man was kicked out of the Garden of.

      “You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the ruby, the topaz and the diamond; the beryl, the onyx and the jasper, the lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; and the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, was in you. On the day that you were created they were prepared. ‘You were the anointed cherub who covers, and I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you.” – Ezekiel 28:13-15 NIV

      It’s not that you’re not understanding this verse, it is that you’re trying to contort this verse and scriptural truth to try to fit the heretical Gap Theory. You need to think about this, pray and repent!

    • Reply June 9, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Pete Fiske You left out verse 17, ““Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.” Where in the 7 days of creation or during Adam’s time in the Garden, were there Kings gazing at the fallen Satan?

  • Reply June 8, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping this topic is similar to what you asked me in the other OP Terry Wiles is making a valid point. Satan opposed GOD which resulted in a fall that came with changes in the nature of the creation as well

    Sin entered the Creation through Satan
    Sin entered human kind through Satan tempting Eve and Adam

    natural science, evolution theoretix, young earthers, flat earther, yappers and so on STILL cannot tell us WHEN was the fall of Satan

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      True. The Ez 28 and IS 12 passages on the fall of Lucifer speak of kings gazing at him, and weakening the nations. This definitely was not true during Adam and Eve’s time in the garden, or during the 6 days of creation. This is proof that Satan fell before Gen 1:2, and gives support for the gap theory.

    • Reply June 8, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Tell me something I dont know 🙂 Where do we disagree on our explanations?

    • Reply June 9, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      We don’t.

    • Reply June 9, 2018

      Pete Fiske

      The fall of Lucifer occurred after creation and before the events of Genesis 3 when man was kicked out of the Garden of.

      “You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, the ruby, the topaz and the diamond; the beryl, the onyx and the jasper, the lapis lazuli, the turquoise and the emerald; and the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, was in you. On the day that you were created they were prepared. ‘You were the anointed cherub who covers, and I placed you there. You were on the holy mountain of God; you walked in the midst of the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you.” – Ezekiel 28:13-15 NIV

      It’s not that you’re not understanding this verse, it is that you’re trying to contort this verse and scriptural truth to try to fit the heretical Gap Theory. You need to think about this, pray and repent!

    • Reply June 9, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Pete Fiske You left out verse 17, ““Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor; I cast you to the ground, I laid you before kings, That they might gaze at you.” Where in the 7 days of creation or during Adam’s time in the Garden, were there Kings gazing at the fallen Satan?

  • Reply June 9, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping Seems that after 2 weeks of discussing it we all agree THAT

    The fall of Lucifer occurred after creation and before the events of Genesis 3 when man was kicked out of the Garden of Eden

    namely between v 1-2 of Gen. ch. 1

    AFTER the creation of the earth and
    BEFORE the earth became void and empty
    There’s really nothing more to be said!

  • Reply June 9, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping Seems that after 2 weeks of discussing it we all agree THAT

    The fall of Lucifer occurred after creation and before the events of Genesis 3 when man was kicked out of the Garden of Eden

    namely between v 1-2 of Gen. ch. 1

    AFTER the creation of the earth and
    BEFORE the earth became void and empty
    There’s really nothing more to be said!

  • Reply July 8, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Ricky Grimsley Seems like the only explanation Gary Micheal Epping proved well to be so

  • Reply July 8, 2018

    Gary Micheal Epping

    It is very easy to prove that the devil sinned before Adam or Eve. God had told Eve, “but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die’ ” (GEN 3:3). But when the serpent came to Eve, he said in verse 4, “You will not surely die.” This was a lie and a sin, and it happened before Eve and Adam sinned after the temptation of the devil. This shows that Satan was already a sinner and had fallen from his earlier status as the anointed Lucifer.

    • Reply July 9, 2018

      Michael Paul Hensley

      Yes but it goes back farther then that Satan sinned first when he disobeyed and rebeled against God to begin with

    • Reply July 9, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Michael Paul Hensley True. I was just citing his last sin before his successful temptation of Eve that involved lying.

  • Reply July 8, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    The original sin was fathered by Satan – Jesus said it

  • Reply July 8, 2018

    Michael Todd Combs

    No

    • Reply July 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Concerning the tree, God said eat and you will die. The serpent said you will not die. So, is this a lie or not? Is a lie a sin? Did this happen before Eve and Adam sinned?

    • Reply July 8, 2018

      Michael Todd Combs

      Gary Micheal Epping can Satan be forgiven of that sin?

    • Reply July 8, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      The question was, “Did the devil sin before Adam,” which scripture gives an answer.

    • Reply July 8, 2018

      Michael Todd Combs

      Sins can be forgiven, therefore Satan, whom was already condemned and unable to be forgiven, cannot “sin” as it pertains to humans. “Sins” are an moral equilibrium for human kind, not celestial beings.

    • Reply July 9, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Sin is sin, which are acts against God.. It does not matter if it is an angel or mankind, whether Satan was already condemned or not.

    • Reply July 9, 2018

      Michael Todd Combs

      Gary Micheal Epping ok.

    • Reply July 9, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      yes Michael Satan can be forgiven
      IF he committed NO deadly sin
      AND IF a proper sacrifice was made on his behalf But God so loved the world…
      //study this part of Jn 3 16

    • Reply July 9, 2018

      Michael Todd Combs

      Troy Day Satan could NOT be forgiven at the time he deceived Eve. There is nowhere in the Bible that states that angels are held to the same morality standards as humans as they do not have free will.

    • Reply July 9, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Moral standards are not based on free will BUT on the sovereignty of God It is His moral standards the whole creation is subject to God’s moral standard does not change toward the creation.

      Are you saying that God cannot forgive whoever and whatever He wills?

      BTW how did Satan chose to rebel against God and fall IF he (satan) had no free will? Makes 0 theological sense Gary

    • Reply July 9, 2018

      Michael Todd Combs

      Troy Day :
      1.) God’s morals are not in question. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. What is in question is whether sin, as defined by human standards and was given as a guidelines to humans were also given to the Angels. It’s not a question of whether “murder” would be wrong for an angel the same as a human, but the fact that humans can be forgiven and redeemed for their misdeeds. There is no theological evidence, As you say, that God does the same for angels. Could he? Absolutely. We can’t put God in a box.

      As far as “free will,” I guess technically you are correct, but again you run into the “can angels be redeemed” once they do a misdeed.

      My simple answer is no or 1/3 of the angels wouldn’t have been thrown out of heaven. You can’t tell me that none of them did not ask forgiveness.

      Thus, my conclusion that “sin” was not specifically “sin” as we know it until Eve sinned and went against Gods’ command. Satan, being evil and condemned to spend eternity in the lake of fire, did indeed lie to Eve, but sin was not defined as “sin” specifically until thereafter.

  • Reply July 9, 2018

    Michael Paul Hensley

    Of course Satan sinned first when he disobeyed and rebeled against God

  • Reply July 9, 2018

    Ron Raney

    I think the devil sinned in the beginning, God created a garden for man and place man in the garden, not the devil, so pride was found in the devil, and he lied, sin

  • Reply July 9, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    What does God’s Word say about how sin entered the world?
    Levi Chavis Romans 5:12-2112 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.20 The law was brought in so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, 21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

  • Reply July 9, 2018

    Gary Micheal Epping

    God’s Word is clear that “sin entered the world through one man”(ROM 5:12), and that “one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people” (verse 18). But, this was the original sin of mankind, not of the angels.

    In GEN 3:4, we can see that the devil was already a liar and sinner when he said, “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.” But, that was not the devil’s first sin, which is shown in EZ 28:16, “You became filled with violence within, And you SINNED
    Therefore I cast you as a profane thing Out of the mountain of God.” The word SIN here is strong’s H2398, which is used throughout the OT in reference to sin by both angels and mankind. So, that “serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan” (REV 20:2} committed the first sin in the universe.

    The serpent’s subsequent sin through lying in GEN 3:4 was the source of the temptation of mankind, which led immediately to the first sin of mankind. God had previously, in GEN 2:16-17, “Commanded the man, ‘You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.” The devil, however lied and said in Gen 3:4, to the woman, “You surely will not die,” Immediately in verse 6, both Adam and Eve responded to the temptation and sinned, “So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree desirable to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate. She also gave to her husband with her, and he ate.”

    So, the answer is not that hard to answer, as the Bible is clear in regard to how sin entered the universe first through Lucifer, ant then later through Adam and Eve to all of mankind.

  • Reply July 10, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Gary entered the world or the creation. Does the new world God created past the fall of Satan refer to earth and Adam only?

  • Reply July 10, 2018

    Gary Micheal Epping

    Lucifer’s original sin was in heaven, not in this world. The strong reference for world is G2889, which is commonly used in the NT for the world ‘in a wide or narrow sense including its inhabitants literally or figuratively [morally]).’ Adam’s sin was the first among men in this world. I have heard it said heaven has always existed like God, and is outside of creation. If true, then the original sin of Lucifer did not happen either in creation nor the world, but in the holy domain of God. Still, the serpent lied on earth when he told Eve they would ‘not die,’ which was the source of temptation for both Eve and Adam that led to the first sin of mankind. He is known as the tempter right from the beginning.

  • Reply July 11, 2018

    Gary Micheal Epping

    And Lucifer’s sin in heaven could have been millions of years ago. Right Peter!

  • Reply October 18, 2018

    Robert Erwine

    Why does eve lie to the devil or how is she able to lie before eating the fruit?

    • Reply October 18, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      why?

    • Reply October 18, 2018

      Robert Erwine

      thats what I am asking ?

    • Reply October 18, 2018

      Ricky Grimsley

      It’s possible that she didn’t lie but was mistaken. Perhaps Adam heard God but eve only heard what Adam said? So perhaps what she told god was true from her point of view.

    • Reply October 18, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Ricky Grimsley Are you saying that Adam did not tell the truth to her and she believed it.” If so, then why would Adam lie?

  • Reply October 18, 2018

    William DeArteaga

    Yes

  • Reply October 18, 2018

    Jeff Latham

    Is this a trick question? If not then yeah.

  • Reply October 19, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    No its not a trick question Jeff Latham

  • Reply October 19, 2018

    Ricky Grimsley

    Yes the devil sinned before Adam.

  • Reply October 19, 2018

    Robert Erwine

    Angel ‘s can’t sin though

    • Reply October 19, 2018

      Fong Fong

      Agreed with Troy. Angels have free will. Lucifer lead a large group of angles and they rebelled against Yahweh.
      They became ‘fallen angels’ aka demons.

      They can do things we know as sin.

      But the angels right now, they don’t sin. They chose to stay with God. Only the fallen angels/demons do

  • Reply October 19, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Angel ‘s can’t sin? How did they fall with Lucifer?

  • Reply October 19, 2018

    Fong Fong

    Bump

  • Reply October 19, 2018

    Robert Erwine

    do angels have free will ? are they made in the image of God ? how can there be sin before the fall ?

    • Reply October 20, 2018

      Louise Cummings

      Where is it that Angels was made in the Image Of God? Man was. But I have never where Angels was. And there were Angels sinned. The devil first. And deceived more. And they were all kicked out of Heaven. Now I don’t remember reading the Angels nor can sin it not. I really think they can’t now. But how did the first ones sin ? Hard questions.

  • Reply October 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    Robert Erwine how did Satan did decide to sin and fall?

  • Reply October 20, 2018

    Robert Erwine

    good question

  • Reply October 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    maybe pastor Terry knows lots about it

  • Reply October 20, 2018

    Louise Cummings

    I would say yes.

  • Reply October 20, 2018

    Terry Wiles

    This is a Pentecostal “Theology” group isn’t it? It seems like many have never read a theology book or even the theology books source which is called The Bible.

    Of course Ángels can sin and do sin. The Lake of fire was prepared for them.

  • Reply October 20, 2018

    Robert Erwine

    iok if angels can sin , can they repent ? I don’t think so….

  • Reply October 20, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    do you mean like through a savior and a sacrifice – you seem to be thinking about angels as about mortals; punishment of sin is death

  • Reply October 20, 2018

    Robert Erwine

    angels can’t die , angels can’t repent , angels can’t reproduce , suxs to be an angel

  • Reply October 21, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    yet they can chose to sin…or were they predestined to?

  • Reply November 16, 2018

    Habakkuk Giah

    Yes !

  • Reply November 16, 2018

    Gary Micheal Epping

    The Bible clearly says he sinned, “You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created until unrighteousness was found in you. By the abundance of your trade you were internally filled with violence, and you SINNED (EZ 28:12-18).”

    • Reply November 16, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Ezekiel 28:12
      12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

    • Reply November 16, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      So, are you saying it was the King of Tyrus that sinned?

    • Reply November 16, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Gary Micheal Epping I quoted scripture. What do you think?

    • Reply November 16, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Not sure the King ever was in Eden, or that he was considered an anointed cherub being a human, or that he was perfect in his ways. Seems this is not talking about the King.

    • Reply November 16, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      The question instead of WHO maybe WHEN…

    • Reply November 18, 2018

      David Singh

      Gary Micheal Epping who are you referring to as the King?

    • Reply November 18, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      David Singh King of Tyre

    • Reply November 18, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Gary Micheal Epping Does the passage say the king of Tyre was in Eden, an anointed Cherub?

      So how do we interpret this? Is this poetic language describing the human king of Tyre using metaphorical language? Does the ‘king of Tyre’ refer to a spiritual entity? Or are these poetic words about a human king, but also spiritually apply to a spiritual being as well?

    • Reply November 18, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Link Hudson It says somebody was in Eden, was an anointed cherub, and was perfect in all ways until he sinned. Who do you think it is?

    • Reply November 18, 2018

      David Singh

      Gary Micheal Epping Adam!

    • Reply November 18, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      David Singh Didn’t know Adam was a cherub.

    • Reply November 18, 2018

      David Singh

      Gary Micheal Epping cherub- heavenly being. Adam was a heavenly being!

    • Reply November 19, 2018

      Link Hudson

      Gary Micheal Epping Would Adam be called the kimg of Tyre.

    • Reply November 19, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      David Singh Hmm. I thought he was the first earth man.

    • Reply November 19, 2018

      David Singh

      Gary Micheal Epping Adam was created in God’s image and likeness. God is heavenly Spirit, Adam was earthly spirit, that is why he had the ability to communicate with God, who is Spirit, on a daily basis. Prior to sin Adam’s Spirit was in charge, when he sinned, his spirit died, and his soul ruled the man. When there is genuine repentance in Christ, your spirit is then made alive again, and the battle starts against the soul (intellect, emotions and self will), therefore we have to learn to overcome and bring the souls under subjection to the spirit.

    • Reply November 19, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      Adam was earthly spirit? What about his body?

    • Reply November 19, 2018

      Gary Micheal Epping

      Link Hudson Not by me. That would take a real stretch of the imagination.

  • Reply November 18, 2018

    Varnel Watson

    David Singh so are you now saying Satan did not sin before Adam and Eve ?

    • Reply November 18, 2018

      David Singh

      Troy Day of course the devil was created before Adam/Eve. But as Jesus said he was a thief and a murderer from the beginning.

    • Reply November 18, 2018

      Varnel Watson

      but dud he SIN before Adam?

  • Reply February 16, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Lyndon Conn I decided to take you on this one since you never said What GREEK source by Pelagius you’ve read and were citing?

  • Reply February 16, 2019

    Jeff Latham

    Uh, yeah!

  • Reply February 16, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Jeff Latham well our brother Lyndon Conn has studied the subject and says there is no original sin to begin with

    • Reply February 16, 2019

      Lyndon Conn

      Troy Day I never said there is no original sin. I said the teaching of Original Sin is a false teaching. Big difference

    • Reply February 17, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      You need to explain it to most of us through I dont think Pelagius will gain much track in this Arminian group 🙂

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Troy Day
      No original sin?
      He might be right because there is really no fake sin also: sin is sin it has no class, category or state…
      Romans says by one mans disobedience SIN ENTERED into the world…
      It was already there waiting for some crank to manifest it..
      If it ENTERED into the world it was not part of this world…..
      To a little baby sin doesn’t exist..but it is there, inside of the baby…call it ” original” or ” consequential” but the ” thing” is there..
      .

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Lyndon Conn
      What do they teach about ” the original sin?””
      How and where did they come to the conclusions that there is an ” original sin”
      Never studied the subject on sin but can surely see the effect and effects of sin on the whole creation

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Lyndon Conn
      If you have ever studied ” sin” can you pls explain to me John 1:29?
      When John saw Jesus he told his disciples this” Look the Lamb of God who takes away the SIN of the world…(not the sins of the world)
      Any difference between the SIN of the world and the SINS..
      I see a similar scenario in Gal 3:13-14…Christ has redeemed us from THE CURSE OF THE LAW (not the curses)…
      Are we redeemed from one curse or many curses?
      Are we forgiven the sin of the world or the SINS…?
      Yet the Bible says by one man SIN ENTERED THE WORLD..NOT SINS..
      My teacher preacher might have overlooked this…

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Lyndon Conn

      Isara Mo don’t misunderstand the statement of “no original sin”. This is not saying that there was not an “original” or first sin in Adam. It is confronting the teaching that is called “Original Sin” as being false in what it teaches. Most people have concluded that sin is passed down in our bodies and is part of our DNA and is our nature. So by this they assume that no man can keep from continuously sinning. Where is the freedom? Where is the transformation and the born again experience where “old things pass away…all things become new”?
      Sin is not our nature. We have a human nature that is prone to sin and will always choose sin without the Holy Spirit in us. A sinful nature teaches that sin is who we are and it is all we can do. The divine nature in Christ gives us power over sin. Sin is a choice and it is something we can separate ourselves from as long as we walk in the spirit. Then we will not fulfill the lists of the flesh and cannot sin according to a John.
      Original Sin supports total depravity in Calvinism. And it supports many other false teachings today that keep people in their sins as they claim to be saved from sin.

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Lyndon Conn

      Isara Mo these world may be used in the singular, but they refer to all sin and the curse that is upon all men. One sin caused a single curse on all men, so that all have sinned

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      sin is very very original

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Lyndon Conn

      Troy Day yes, but the man created teaching called “Original Sin” is not. It is a sin supporting teaching created by sin supporting teachers like Augustine. It gives men an excuse for sin and allows them to be saved in their sins instead of being saved from their sins.

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Lyndon Conn
      Well said and expounded.

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Lyndon Conn
      Adam did not lie or fornicate or murder or commit any of the works of the flesh listed in Galatians, or any of the known or unknown sins which human being commit(knowingly and unknowingly: he only commited JUST ONE SIN(The scriptures say so) and yet we see a human man race weighed down by so many inherited sins ..and and death from Adams one act if disobedience.
      Romans 8:2 speaks of a law of sin and death…but it also speaks of a law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus which sets man free from the other law…of sin and death.
      My observation is that this law of sin and death which is inherent in all human beings irrespective of gender, colour, race, ethnicity .etc won’t stop operating in any human being until or unless they accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour,(whose divine nature has power over sin as you say) ONLY then can this law of sin and death be broken, stopped, cancelled or annulled completely : the law of the Spirit of life operates only in a a soul that has accepted Jesus…(I believe so)
      I am puzzled that inspite of the foregoing, sin is still rampant in churches, in people who are supposed to have a new DNA…whose software’s were supposed to be wired such that sin(the virus) couldn’t come near them or operate in them.Do you have any explanation for this?
      My other question is: does the ” original sin” in a believer cease at the moment of salvation?…
      Well the scriptures say when one is in Christ he is a ” new creation” the OLD IS GONE…How do you interpret this?
      The other day someone said in this group that SALVATION is A PROCESS and RESULT..(I give high five for that definition…it went beyond the handed down theories of salvation as preached and taught by many.)…
      How can one know they are ” sin(s) free”?
      Apostle Paul said something about two opposing laws in his nature…two antagonistic laws…
      That which he wants to do…he cant, that which he doesn’t WANTto do he does…
      Lyndon may I ask you a Sunday School question:
      WHAT IS SIN?
      Since you said you have studied the subject of SIN ..plse help.
      If we can understand what sin is, then we can understand who sinned first..Adam or Lucifer.(My personal view)

    • Reply February 22, 2019

      Joe Mungai

      Is someone here denying the total depravity of man?
      If man is not totally evil, then what is the need of Jesus Christ?
      For it is clear that the coming of Jesus establishes that after 4,000 years, God could not find anyone who is entirely not evil to save the world and establish the Holiness of God.
      Joseph, for example, no sin is found in him, yet he is not good enough
      Daniel, no sin is mentioned in his long life, but even Daniel is not good enough.
      This is why Romans 3:23 cannot in anyway be qualified: FOR ALL HAVE SINNED AND FALL SHORT OF THE GLORY OF GOD.
      God Himself testifies that the thoughts of man are continually evil from his youth. Genesis 8:21. God is talking not about deeds, but thoughts.

      But the most important verse to this argument is Genesis 3:22: the man BECAME…..
      The disobedience in Eden transformed man into something he wasn’t before; he became as God knowing good and evil, and THAT IS NOT WHAT MAN WAS MENT TO BE.
      I submit to you that this verse is the one verse that establishes that a transformation has occurred in man. Man is now a bearer of sin, and proudly so. I say proudly because Adam did not once repent, and thus became a bearer of sin. And without repentance, God did not forgive.
      It is this “became” in Genesis 3 that is the Original Sin which we all bear.
      David says “I was conceived in sin…” Psalm 139
      Jeremiah testifies that “the heart is deceitful and desperately wicked” Jer. 17:9

      Further, it is also clear that the salvation of Jesus Christ is one standard measure. One savior for all men. ALL MEN.
      If there was no Original Sin, then some men would be able to boldly not need Jesus for they could have some RIGHTEOUSNESS to show apart from the cross. But even of the children Jesus says: Let the children come to me….
      For even the child will be saved by Jesus Christ and not by any innocences that may please men.
      One savior for Pharaoh and for Moses.
      One savior for John the Baptist and for Herod.
      One savior for Daniel and for Nebuchadnezzar
      One savior for Billy Graham and for Hitler.
      For our heart is one. Evil.
      The solidarity of man is best seen in sin, that though I may not have done the evil of a Hitler, or the rebellion of a Pilate, or the depravity of a serial rapist, yet, yet, the capacity for this is within my heart.
      And what does God say to Samuel ere he anoints David?: God sees the heart unlike man who sees the outside appearance. In other words, God sees hearts as man sees faces. 1 Samuel 16:7.
      When God looks at my heart and all our hearts, He sees the heart of old Adam, obstinate, hard, unrepentant in that first sin.
      And so, when God comes to save us in the Holy person of Jesus, He calls Himself “THE SON OF MAN” Literally, “The son of Adam”…..
      Jesus, the son of Adam.
      That’s what He calls Himself.
      His first order of business is to take away the Original Sin and then He can deal with my lust for chocolate and other hungups.

  • Reply February 16, 2019

    Larry Ray Talley

    Isn’t sin the ONLY thing Lucifer created??

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Larry Ray Talley
      Was Lucifer the originator of Sin or is it Adam or both?

  • Reply February 16, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    I dont know about creating it per se

  • Reply February 16, 2019

    Larry Ray Talley

    Semantics I guess, but I can’t think of God inventing it.

  • Reply February 16, 2019

    Larry Ray Talley

    Semantics I guess, but I can’t think of God inventing it.

  • Reply February 16, 2019

    Timothy Staggs

    Pride

  • Reply February 17, 2019

    Rick Warner

    HMMMMM DUH yes…why was he case out of heaven if he hadnt

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Rick Warner
      Rev 12:7 says there was war in heaven…..the preceding verses don’t indicate if the origin or cause of this was was Lucifer’s pride… only that there was war in heaven..
      The scriptures show that Adam.sin was externally induced…ie before the devil came unto the scene Adam was a baby..not knowing right and wrong.
      But when Lucifer who knew RIGHT and WRONG paid a visit to Eden..and talked with Eve, he “imparted” the spirit of rebellion(disobedience, lawlessness upon Eve’s mind…(external induction) and poised her.
      My puny mind thinks that Lucifer was the first to sin because if he(it? she?) has not visited the couple in Eden we would have had no sin or death.
      In John 8:44 Jesus says the devil has been sinning from the BEGINNING..
      If Adams fall was externally imparted(my theology..not Biblical plse) I am just wondering if Satan’s “pride” was self created or externally induced…?
      Lucifer was in the presence of God so it it is unlikely for God to have “imparted” him with ” pride”…
      In Ezekiel it is said Lucifer said “I WILL..I WILL…I WILL BE LIKE THE MOST HIGH..AND ASCEND . ”
      I think Lucifer caused his own fall..

  • Reply February 17, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Lyndon Conn in which of his few writings – none of them survived today – Pelagious denied original sin?

    • Reply February 17, 2019

      Lyndon Conn

      Troy Day letter to Demetrius. And without his writings the only thing given to condemn him was the sin supporting opponent Augustine who tried to have him condemned twice and failed. When Pelagius was present to defend his beliefs even the councils could find no reason to condemn him. That alone should tell you everything you need to know. If he truly taught as Augustine said he did, then those councils would certainly have condemned him as a heretic. Yet they didn’t. It was only when Pelagius could no be present to defend himself that the pope condemned him by the words of Augustine and Jerome. There is no other evidence that he taught as accused.
      Imagine if a few Calvinists could go before a council who believed much like they do who accused an Arminian of teaching “Works salvation”, “the glory of man”, and a number of other false accusations they make towards all Arminians in their debates – and that Arminian could not be present to defend himself. If that council had the power to condemn that Arminian then they would probably do it based on what they heard. I have seen this happen dozens of times by Calvinists who despise the truth and love their lies. It isn’t hard to condemn another person, lie about their teachings and insert your own ideas of their teachings, and burn their writings so they have no defense. But if Pelagius was anything like what Augustine wrote about, then he would certainly have been condemn the first two times before the councils. By the fact that this did not happen proves Augustine to be a liar, full of hatred towards his brother (a murderer), and having no fear of sin. This same heart was in Calvin with Servetus and others. It was in the council of Dort towards Arminians. And it is in Calvinists today.

    • Reply February 17, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      in Latin? Did he even write anything in Latin? Most of his originals were in Greek and even quoted in Greek

    • Reply February 17, 2019

      Lyndon Conn

      Troy Day https://earlychurchtexts.com/public/pelagius_letter_to_demetrias.htm

      “In this letter Pelagius explains his understanding of the relationship of human free will and God’s grace.”

      “Latin text from Migne”

    • Reply February 17, 2019

      Lyndon Conn

      This was a letter to someone else, not a personal writing. So he would have written it in the language the person would best understand.

    • Reply February 17, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      I saw this and also the full text of (413) – it has only 9 references to sin mostly Bible quotes and NO reference to original sin or its effect and explanation https://epistolae.ctl.columbia.edu/letter/1296.html

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Troy Day They didnt have Bible Colleges or theology professors but nowadays we have…them aplenty so what does modern day theology say regarding ” original sin”?
      Has the human mind remain ” static” these two thousand years, holding to the same theologies yester year?(Just thinking..)
      I wonder how the Wright brothers would see a Concorde….if they rose from the dead…
      Same mind set they had when they first invented the first airplane ?

  • Reply February 18, 2019

    Mike Albright

    No. Adam made satan.

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Rick Warner

      are you serious? i do not remember reading Adam creating anything…Satan was an angel cast from heave……

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Mike Albright

      Rick Warner God made Lucifer, an angel of light. But it was Adam’s transgression that turned over the dominion of the earth to Lucifer and made him Satan. God didn’t create Satan. Adam did.

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Rick Warner

      Mike Albright scripture reference please

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Isara Mo

      Mike Albright
      ????????

    • Reply February 20, 2019

      Larry Ray Talley

      Seems to me Lucifer became Satan when he rebelled against God, long before Adam was created!!!

  • Reply February 18, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Adam made satan.? Do Tell Mike Albright

  • Reply February 18, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    Lyndon Conn took me quite a bit to figure our what you are saying So basically you are saying what I am saying but you are against a doctrine called Original Sin by Augustine / Calvin – dont have problem with that I do have problem with Pelegious NOT being heretic though I read your document and this is NOT the right document for your hypotheses He’s got earlier Greek MSS that are much more descriptive

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Lyndon Conn

      Troy Day I believe there is more than enough evidence to prove Pelagius was not the heretic, but Augustine was. Don’t ignore the fact that even the councils could find no fault in his teachings when Augustine accused him of heresy before them. When he explained it to them they saw no problems with anything and released him. He was ONLY condemned as a heretic when Augustine falsely accused him and Pelagius could not be present to defend himself. Everything we have today to teach that a Pelagius was a heretic is from Augustine’s writings. If you want to believe a sinner that is willing to have a man condemned because he was offended and wanted to protect his own pride and keep his audience that is up to you. The Bible says you will know them by their fruit. And Augustine definitely shows that bad fruit.
      I do believe Pelagius own writings defend him. But even without them it is clear that something wasn’t right. And knowing the pattern of heretics like Augustine and seeing it repeated by Calvin should also make it clear what spirit we are dealing with.
      I think we will all agree that the teachings Pelagius is accused of is heresy. No doubt about it! And so are the teachings that Arminians are accused of. But we know what we really believe, regardless what the Calvinists accuse.

    • Reply February 18, 2019

      Varnel Watson

      I dont think so I have read his Greek MSS and formed my own opinion Also the way his teaching was taken by Eastern dualism is nothing but heretical

      Once again I have NOT read his Augustine critique (or if I did back in the day have forgotten all about it) The later latin fragments about him – that he did not write do not concern me I am looking at the sources in Greek which I quoted The one you posted had hardly anything on the original sin idea

  • Reply February 22, 2019

    Varnel Watson

    no one is denying the total depravity of man?

  • Reply January 21, 2020

    Nicolás Peyretti

    The only thing the Devil can’t do is be humble

    • Reply January 21, 2020

      Isara Mo

      Nicolás Peyretti
      Did he sin before ADAM?

    • Reply January 21, 2020

      Nicolás Peyretti

      Yes of course tenting. But he sin because God wants to prove us. Is his nature and his prupose

  • Reply January 21, 2020

    Isara Mo

    The correct answer to this question will help a looot..
    We piece together different Scriptures and make a fitting necklace…
    Some say Yes the devil did sin before Adam
    Some say No Adam sinned before LLucifer..
    The correct answer to this question may also shed light on when did demons first I dwell men…and can help those who think a Christian can’t have a demon

  • Reply January 21, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Isara Mo Nicolás Peyretti not sure what yalls are saying

    • Reply January 22, 2020

      Nicolás Peyretti

      Isara is studying when the demonds got inside the humans for first time and is debating with the people that says that this is not possible. But in the Gospel we can see that the Lord Jesus put out demonds from humans in many ocations for example in

    • Reply January 22, 2020

      Nicolás Peyretti

      Matthew 8:28-34 New International Version (NIV)

      Jesus Restores Two Demon-Possessed Men
      28 When he arrived at the other side in the region of the Gadarenes,[a] two demon-possessed men coming from the tombs met him. They were so violent that no one could pass that way. 29 “What do you want with us, Son of God?” they shouted. “Have you come here to torture us before the appointed time?”

      30 Some distance from them a large herd of pigs was feeding. 31 The demons begged Jesus, “If you drive us out, send us into the herd of pigs.”

      32 He said to them, “Go!” So they came out and went into the pigs, and the whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water. 33 Those tending the pigs ran off, went into the town and reported all this, including what had happened to the demon-possessed men. 34 Then the whole town went out to meet Jesus. And when they saw him, they pleaded with him to leave their region.

    • Reply January 22, 2020

      Nicolás Peyretti

      And also with Maria Magdalena the Bible says that she had 7 demonds that Jesus the Christ puts out and clean her. ?

    • Reply January 22, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Nicolás Peyretti you are NOT giving a straight answer Why is that such a difficult thing to do for you?

    • Reply January 22, 2020

      Nicolás Peyretti

      Just read all the answers are there. If there is another thing you want to know just let me know. Is not a solid discussion that’s why is dificult to understand was not objective. Im sorry if i cause confusion was not my purpose, just to share what i think because are the words of Jesus. Bless you

    • Reply January 23, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Nicolás Peyretti you are still writing much without saying anything – who was it FIRST – plain and simple

    • Reply January 23, 2020

      Isara Mo

      Troy Day
      Sequential creation account of iGenesis 1 and 2 doesn’t give a clue who sinned first..
      A crafty creature comes to the wife of Adam and had a confusing conversation at the end of it both the mind of the wife and the mind of the man were functioning with a virus.
      Did Adam and Eve have thd mknd of God?
      Discernment is a gift and they could have discovered that the serpent wanted to deceive them.. but they gave ear to him(the serpent) and immediately their minds became corrupted.
      God banished Adam and Eve from the garden of Eden and put a cherubim with a flaming sword to guard the PATH(WAY) to the tree of life.
      The Genesis account doesn’t say whether the serpent was also thrown out of the garden..
      The Rev 12 account of the fall of LLucifer was a war situation a real military confrontation…. and the Scriptures say Satan was thrown, DOWN. to earth..
      Jesus also when on earthly ministry said He saw Saran falling like lightening from heaven.
      So just as Adam and Eve were banished from Eden equally LLucifer was thrown out of heaven.
      Adam and Eve were earthly dwellers when the devil a heavenly being came down to them.
      Before the serpent came unto the scene Adam and Eve were sinless..
      After the devil came unto the scene(I believe he came with his demons) Adam fell from grace.
      We can’t establish the times of these two incidents ie the banishment of Adam and Eve and the fall of the dragon from heaven but a logical conclusion after reading the Genesis account of the fall and the Rev account of Satan’s overthrow is that SATAN SINNED BEFORE ADAM

    • Reply January 23, 2020

      Nicolás Peyretti

      Isara Mo They was pure

    • Reply January 23, 2020

      Isara Mo

      Nicolás Peyretti
      Am just wondering if Adam and Eve operated with the Gifts of the Spirit.. Just curious..
      If so God would have given them discernment or word of knowledge of impending doom..
      Or was it the case of “Scriptures had to be fulfilled” which said “Adam you eat the fruit.. You die?

    • Reply January 24, 2020

      Nicolás Peyretti

      I think the more close example of Adam is ourselves. How many times we operated with the Gifts of the Spirit (Grace, Happines, Love) and then we fall again in sins, we go far of God and he’s will. We know that we are doing mistakes but… we consider it not that important. But the price is the death, to live outside the Divine Union, because God can not be with us in impure conditions. Thats why when we pray when we sacrifice we receive Grace.

      Is he’s will to let us died and pass far of the paradise of his love for learn? I don’t think is his will to makes us suffering is a perverse idea. I think is part of our freedom. At the end we decide, if he decides for us we are not free. But at the end He lead us all the time. He is the Good Sheaper, He gives his life for us.

  • Reply January 23, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Gary Micheal Epping Isara Mo did the pre-Adamics sin BEFORE the devil did We know they sinned before Adam now

  • Reply January 23, 2020

    Melody Cates Kinzer

    The devil send the moment his ego got the better of him and he decided to try to overthrow God. He also said when he deceived Eve by lying to her.

  • Reply January 23, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    tell us what you dont understand Isara Mo

  • Reply May 21, 2020

    Harley N Christine Webb

    Is this really even a question? How could the Devil tempt Eve in the Garden if He wasn’t a sinner? Unless you assume he had good intentions for deceiving Eve.

  • Reply May 21, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    tell us now Neil Steven Lawrence Isara Mo

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Hingano Kaitu'u

    Nope! The devil was sin after Adam

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      how would this be even possible without denying the historicity of the entire BIBLE ?

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Terry Eldridge

      Hingano Kaitu’u
      How do you come to that conclusion?

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Michael Spicer

      Terry Eldridge didn’t God make everything and say. All is good. Would he say this if the devil w as fallen?

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Jack Parks

      Michael Spicer who says Adam and Eve fell right away? We don’t know how long they were in the garden before it happened. Perhaps just a couple days, perhaps a couple years.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Jack Parks

      Hingano Kaitu’u even if it was his first sin, the devil tempting Eve was sinful, and that’s before Adam.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Michael Spicer

      Jack Parks do maybe the devil didn’t sin until a few days or years.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Jack Parks

      Michael Spicer could be. But it was before Adam sinned.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Michael Spicer

      Jack Parks yes. Hrs the one who tempted eve

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Hingano Kaitu'u

      Terry Eldridge because after 6 days of creation God looked that everything is set and he said All is Good wich means Satan was not yet fall

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Olivaire Watler

      Michael Spicer God made everything good. That has nothing to do with whether Lucifer fell after he made him. Obviously couldn’t be tempting Eve to sin unless he had first sinned.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Olivaire Watler

      Hingano Kaitu’u God made everything good. That has nothing to do with whether Lucifer fell after he made him. Obviously couldn’t be tempting Eve to sin unless he had first sinned.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Hingano Kaitu'u

      Yes it is, why would God would say that when he looked all his creation and say that everything is good. if there is an evil already exist. Lucifer must fell after a few 100 years or more after creation. The bible says in Ezekiel that Lucifer was in the garden of Eden while all his title and glory still in him, and it also says that Lucifer was a created being

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Hingano Kaitu’u that actually makes 0 theological sense Please explain what do you mean by it

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Terry Eldridge

      Hingano Kaitu’u
      You are overlooking the fact that Satan had already sinned by rebelling against God in Heaven, and drew one third of the angels with him, before God cast them down to Earth, where Satan sought to entice Adam and Eve to join him in that rebellion.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Terry Eldridge

      Michael Spicer
      Yes, God said that all that He has made was “good”, but you have to remember that Satan pre-existed God’s creation of this world and his sin was pride in his beauty (Ezekiel 28:15–17) and in trying to ascend to be like God while in heaven (Isaiah 14:12–14).

      Satan was cast out of heaven when imperfection was found in him (Isaiah 14:12; Ezekiel 28:15) and then we find his influence in the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 28:13; Genesis 3) when he tempts the first man to join him in his rebellion against God.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Terry Eldridge

      Hingano Kaitu’u
      As I said previously, Satan had already fallen by fomenting an insurrection against God in heaven. He was cast down to Earth together with a third of the angels who he drew into his rebellion. He then proceed to tempt the first man (and woman) to do likewise.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Terry Eldridge can you prove this with actual BIBLE pls

      insurrection against God in heaven

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Michael Spicer

      Terry Eldridge would God say all is good after he creation in 6 days if the devil had fallen? That wouldnt b good

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Hingano Kaitu'u

      Terry Eldridge like the verse that I posted Lucifer was in the garden of Eden! Which mean he was not yet fallen

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Hingano Kaitu'u

      Michael Spicer exactly!

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Terry Eldridge

      Michael Spicer
      But Satan (or Lucifer as he was known as then) was already a created being BEFORE God created the heavens and the Earth, and had sinned against God in heaven. When God said what He had made was “good” He was referring to His creation of the physical world, not spiritual entities such as angels.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Terry Eldridge

      Hingano Kaitu’u
      I’m struggling to understand why Lucifer’s presence in the garden of Eden means that he wasn’t yet fallen. Have you forgotten that he was THROWN out of heaven because of his disobedience against God – he wasn’t there as a tourist!

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Michael Spicer

      Terry Eldridge sorry I’m not positive on this. But doesnt the bible say the Angel’s rejoiced when God finished with creation.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Terry Eldridge

      Michael Spicer
      Can’t be all of them can it, seeing a third of the angels who rebelled against God with Satan were thrown out of heaven? I’m sure they weren’t rejoicing!

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Michael Spicer

      Terry Eldridge I’m saying the devil and his followers were thrown our after creation but b4 the “apple”

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    , I forgot to include Ezekiel 28:1-19Ezekiel 28:1-191The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:“‘In the pride of your heart you say, “I am a god;I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the seas.�But you are a mere mortal and not a god, though you think you are as wise as a god.3 Are you wiser than Daniel? Is no secret hidden from you?4 By your wisdom and understanding you have gained wealth for yourselfand amassed gold and silver in your treasuries.5 By your great skill in trading you have increased your wealth,and because of your wealth your heart has grown proud.6 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:“‘Because you think you are wise, as wise as a god,7 I am going to bring foreigners against you, the most ruthless of nations;they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom and pierce your shining splendor.8 They will bring you down to the pit, and you will die a violent death in the heart of the seas.9 Will you then say, “I am a god,� in the presence of those who kill you?You will be but a mortal, not a god, in the hands of those who slay you.10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised at the hands of foreigners.I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.’�11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:“‘You were the seal of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;every precious stone adorned you: carnelian, chrysolite and emerald, topaz, onyx and jasper, lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.Your settings and mountings were made of gold; on the day you were created they were prepared.14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you.You were on the holy mount of God; you walked among the fiery stones.15 You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.16 Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned.So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God, and I expelled you, guardian cherub, from among the fiery stones.17 Your heart became proud on account of your beauty,and you corrupted your wisdom because of your splendor.So I threw you to the earth; I made a spectacle of you before kings.18 By your many sins and dishonest trade you have desecrated your sanctuaries.So I made a fire come out from you, and it consumed you,and I reduced you to ashes on the ground in the sight of all who were watching.19 All the nations who knew you are appalled at you;you have come to a horrible end and will be no more.’�I hope this helps clarify some things for you Ricky, have a good day and God Bless.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Robert Martin

    So rebelling against God and causing 33% of the angels to start a war isn’t a sin? If that’s the case I got some mags to load and some stuff the burn down!

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      how is this any BIBLE or theology ?

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Robert Martin

      Troy Day you lack reading comprehension? It’s a theological question in response to the ones saying Lucifer didn’t sin before Adam. Thought it was pretty self-explanatory there bud.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Robert Martin Meaning what exactly? What is your theological response to the actual cause of 33% of the angels to start a war? Do you have any Biblical foundation for that or have you just read it in some book somewhere? A reading comprehension can appear only when someone has actually written something that could be comprehended. The lack of any theological logic in your comment suffers sufficient obscurity to the opposite

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Robert Martin

      Troy Day you for real dude? The cause of the the holy war was pride and selfishness. The first sin was committed in heaven it’s pretty simple to understand. Guess who ain’t gunna source everything for you? That’s right. This guy.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Jabememej Makby

    Yes

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Danie Van Der Westhuizen

    Yes, Pride was the first sin, and still the main cause of people to falter.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    RT Junior Khouchung

    Yes it is

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Grant Reedy

    Where do you think darkness came from?

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Good point – was it always there? WHY?

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Grant Reedy

      Troy Day no darkness was not always there.
      God is light and in Him there is no darkness.
      For what has light to do with darkness.
      Where light is darkness can’t be in the same place.

      Lucifer was created in light the Son of the morning meaning first awakening of day.
      Lucifer became aware of his Beauty though wanted more, to become god and even Greater than God, to become something else he was never created in or to be.
      Lucifer and the fall angels had no concept of anything but light, so thinking there were no repercussions, rebels against God

      Lucifer became the adversary to God and the adversary to Light and to become something else, the only option was to become the prince of darkness.

      God separated that darkness from His presence and Lucifer became Satan negative influence of dark energy, what we call today our universe which being the adversary to God, eternal darkness, the deep, lawlessness and chaos.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Nikki Sheppick

    It is the father of lies, the destroyer/death dealer; …. and God is the utter Divine Truth and Life. From that evil one came the lies and wicked guile that tricked the weaker vessel (in understanding) to eat of that which was forbidden. From that, come forth corruption and death in to the earth. Gen. …. and ever since …. till Jesus – Who was fore-told – came to deliver us from such evil …. in the Holy Way …. by which the separation between God and man …. could be healed, for whosoever will receive Him as their Lord and Savior. Amen and Amen.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      hey Nikki Sheppick This makes sense I am examining more of the Bible theology behind some popular claims. May I inquire about a moderation question or just PM you?

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Nikki Sheppick

      Troy Day You may PM me if you wish.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Corey Randall

    For satan to tempt Adam and Eve Satan had evil in his being before Adam and Eve Disobeyed God. Proof of this is scripture that God does not tempt anyone because there is no evil found in him. Thus evil was found in the tempter satan, the liar from the beginning.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      this seems logical but is it Biblical ?

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Corey Randall

      Troy Day yes it is as it matches with biblical truths

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Dwaine Vassell

    ??interesting concept

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Erik von Holstein-Rathlou

    Yes, his sin was pride and it cost him and a third of the angels their eternity.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Hingano Kaitu'u

    Ezekiel 28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord God; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

    13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

    14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

    15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      how do you proof the son of man is an angel that God created – how is this passage NOT about an earthly king?

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Hingano Kaitu'u

      Because the Kings of Turus is a physical human being he was the actual king of Turus. This chapter first talk about the prince then switch and talked about the king! The prince (Lucifer)is the guy behind the sence who is really motivated the king of Turus! And the king of Turus was never in the garden of Eden!

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Ralph Dumagpi

    Yes…that sin of PRIDE

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Glory Kramlich

    Yes! Repeating “the sin of pride!”

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    does anyone even know? Isara Mo Robert Cox

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Terry Eldridge

    Troy Day
    Ezekiel 28:11 -19 is very explicit on this matter.

    “Moreover the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 12 “Son of man, take up a lamentation for the king of Tyre, and say to him, ‘Thus says the Lord God:

    “You were the seal of perfection,
    Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
    13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
    Every precious stone was your covering:
    The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
    Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
    Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
    The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
    Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
    14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers;
    I established you;
    You were on the holy mountain of God;
    You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.
    15 You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created,
    Till iniquity was found in you.
    16 “By the abundance of your trading
    You became filled with violence within,
    And you sinned;
    Therefore I cast you as a profane thing
    Out of the mountain of God;
    And I destroyed you, O covering cherub,
    From the midst of the fiery stones.
    17 “Your heart was [a]lifted up because of your beauty;
    You corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor;
    I cast you to the ground,
    I laid you before kings,
    That they might gaze at you.
    18 “You defiled your sanctuaries
    By the multitude of your iniquities,
    By the iniquity of your trading;
    Therefore I brought fire from your midst;
    It devoured you,
    And I turned you to ashes upon the earth
    In the sight of all who saw you.
    19 All who knew you among the peoples are astonished at you;
    You have become a horror,
    And shall be no more forever.” ’ ”

    Then there’s Isaiah 14:12-17

    2 “How you are fallen from heaven,
    O [a]Lucifer, son of the morning!
    How you are cut down to the ground,
    You who weakened the nations!
    13 For you have said in your heart:
    ‘I will ascend into heaven,
    I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
    I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
    On the farthest sides of the north;
    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
    I will be like the Most High.’
    15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol,
    To the [b]lowest depths of the Pit.
    16 “Those who see you will gaze at you,
    And consider you, saying:
    ‘Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
    Who shook kingdoms,
    17 Who made the world as a wilderness
    And destroyed its cities,
    Who [c]did not open the house of his prisoners?’”

    There are other bible passages too, but these should suffice to make the point.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Terry Eldridge

    Michael Spicer
    So why were they thrown out? That’s right – because they had already fallen!

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Emmanuel Scott

    The potential for sin was always there from the beginning. Otherwise it would have never been found in Satan.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Michael Spicer

    Terry Eldridge they fell after the creation

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Terry Eldridge

    Michael Spicer
    So why were they kicked out of heaven, and/or why did they fall AFTER the creation of the world? What caused them to fall?

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Michael Spicer

    Terry Eldridge the devils pride. They fell and got kicked out after creation

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Terry Eldridge

    Michael Spicer
    How do you know your chronology is correct?

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Nishan Thapa

    And same pride repeated by man…

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Michael Spicer

    Terry Eldridge I believe God would not say all is good after the creation if there was evil. If they had already fallen

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Steve Rubes

    I doubt an Adam. Eve ever existed. If they did then so did Lilith

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Ann Smit

    Lilith is the Esoteric wife of Adam but we believe the Word of God who is Jesus Christ as mentioned in The Gospel of John :1 1 In The beginning was the Word and the Word is God Jesus Christ is Almighty God

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      Leah Pratt

      Ann Smit can you provide biblical support for “Lilith?” And how does this relate to the sin of Satan?

    • Reply June 3, 2020

      JC Medina

      Ann Smit Lilith isn’t biblical because she was already having rebellious thoughts before the Apple was even eaten which makes no sense because as we know once Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit that was the birth of original sin which is deciding what is right and what is wrong to us instead of God saying what is right and what is wrong. Humans didn’t know of sin until the fruit was eaten.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    JC Medina

    Yes, sin and the enemy are two completely different entities. The enemy uses sin as a tool. However, sin is born from within so any human or spiritual being can sin for example Satan!

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Terry Eldridge

    Michael Spicer
    No…there wasn’t evil until Satan (who had already fallen before being cast down to Earth) introduced it by causing Adam and Eve to sin against God. To suggest that he fell AFTER arriving on the scene here on Earth (which I believe was your original suggestion) makes no sense.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Michael Spicer

    Terry Eldridge wow. U r soooooo confused

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Michael Spicer

    Terry Eldridge I’ll type slower

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Michael Spicer

    Terry Eldridge devil didnt sin and wasnt cast out until the creation was over. Then he wa casted out. Then he tempted eve.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Peter Whiteman

    Yes

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Keri Hutson

    https://answersingenesis.org/sin/original-sin/who-sinned-first-adam-or-satan/

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Anthony Gilbert

    Yes that’s why he’s called the father of lies and the Bible says he sinned from the beginning

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    thus far I have seen 0 apologetical proof in this debate Can we pick it up a little and produce Biblical evidence?

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Francis Antony

    rebellion is a sin right? in that case satan sinned before creation

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Hingano Kaitu'u

    According to the verse you posted Ezekiel 28:13 first part of the verse it says “You were in Eden the garden of God” and so on! I don’t figure it out how you read! But it’s obvious he was in the garden of Eden and all his precious stone covering, sardius and so on! All of these stone are his glory which means Lucifer was there during the creation and he was yet fall.
    The question is what was he doing there? So according to to Job 38:4&7 God asked Job” when wast thou when I lay the foundation of the earth………. and all the son (angle) of God shout for joy” that is day three of creation when God lay the foundation of the earth Gen 1:9-13!
    After the six days God looked. And everything was good! So Lucifer was in the garden watching and rejoice during the creation! It must be after a 100 or more years after the creation then he sinned and through him down!

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Hingano Kaitu'u

    Another interesting thing in Ezekiel 38 we can see that two times was mentioned that Lucifer was a created being! And if God created Heaven and earth; and created everything in 6 days it must be included Lucifer and all the angles. From Job 38:4&7 The angle rejoice during when God lay the foundation that is day three! And it’s means the angle was made either at day one or day two because everything was made in six days! According to Ezikiel they were a created being!

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Hingano Kaitu’u you are now making less and less sense as per any theology used Just humanistic logic

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Hingano Kaitu'u

    Hmmmmm still not see how Stan exist before the creation from your side

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Tracy Pavlik

    Yes, the devil sinned before Adam. BUT….

    Adam was given dominion, not the devil. Therefore sin entered the world through Adam not Satan.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Tim Henderson

    Yes. But Satan was not created in the image of God. Adam was.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Charles Page

    The Dispys say he sinned before Adam – however Paul taught that sin entered through Adam so Lucifer’s sin was of necessity afterwards.

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Sherman C Fletcher

    Yes…

  • Reply June 3, 2020

    Girlie Grimaldo Laña

    In monetheistic theology… It is hard to say where the evil came from

  • Reply June 4, 2020

    Mark Frost

    Yes

  • Reply June 4, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    I don’t understand where you get that Satan was the serpent. The serpent was a beast of the fields. I went and looked up the word beguiled and it means seduction. We are all men here, we all know that to have a child you have sex. When there is a seed of a man that means his child. Yes I can see black and white of the verses and yes the Bible is right.
    Beguiled has more than one meaning.Being seduced is not always nor only sexually.Here is a New Testament exampleColossians 2:18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,From beguiled in Gen 3:135377 nasha’ naw-shaw’ a primitive root; to lead astray, i.e. (mentally) to delude,or (morally) to seduce:–beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly* notice it said morally, not necessarily sexually. Not all koral failures are sexual in nature.I guess we underestimate the power of the fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.What was God’s question in response to how Adam found out that he and Eve were naked?Genesis 3:9-12And the Lord God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself. And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.God asked, “who TOLD you”?Then He/God asked, “hast thou eaten of the tree”?Simple obvious question would be, “have you had sex”? But that never came up did it?Why not?It is perfectly clear, unless the one reading it is just beguiled themselves and wants to fantasize about Eve making out with “the serpent”.Was satan the father of Cain?Genesis 4:1And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.Is that black and white?

    • Reply June 4, 2020

      Hingano Kaitu'u

      How then was Adam to multiply? I

    • Reply June 4, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      Hingano Kaitu’u tell us – give us A clue

  • Reply June 4, 2020

    Hingano Kaitu'u

    “And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.” (Genesis 2:9)

    So there were two trees in the Garden of Eden. One is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and one is the tree whose fruit yields eternal life. The law not to eat is confusing but specific:

    “And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:16-17)

    Then Adam and Eve ate from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and God had no choice but to expel them,

    “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken. (Genesis 3:22-23)

    If Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree of eternal life, they would have no reason to procreate through sex because they would never need to replace themselves in the world through sex. The command that sex is holy is the first command uttered by God to man in Genesis 1:28,

    “And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.”

    Yes, sex is tied to procreation, but it is clearly holy and both a gift and a commandment from God. In fact, in Genesis 1:22 God gives the same command of “be fruitful and multiply” to the animals.

    • Reply June 4, 2020

      Varnel Watson

      these verses do NO refer to the actual fall of satan when and if such even occurred in time

  • Reply June 5, 2020

    Gary Micheal Epping

    A talking snake is not a regular beast of the fields. Why would he tempt to sin unless he was already guilty of sin.

  • Reply June 5, 2020

    Michael Dennis

    Yes, that’s why he was kicked out of Heaven.

  • Reply June 5, 2020

    Varnel Watson

    Michael Dennis Gary Micheal Epping in ALL seriousness this tale about satan 1/3 angels and everything else needs a serious exegetical support BEFORE we can turn it into BIBLE written ON STONE Logically there has had to be sin before Adam sin

    a talking snake MAY have been regular beast as Adam talked to animals freely when he called them by name and even NOAH may have as well to call them all in one place

    why would a small child today attempt to sin? answer the question but in all seriousness Satan coming down from heaven proves pre-Trib rapture with the Church going UP As Jesus said I saw satan falling down

  • Reply June 6, 2020

    Isara Mo

    Who sinned first Adam or the Devil?
    Simple, the one who caused the other to SIN is the first.
    Let’s say Troy Day tested positive for COVID 19, first (God forbid) and then came to Isara MO and shook hands with him and Isara Mo gets the virus, logically and conclusively this illustration shows that Troy was the first to get it and Isara Mo got it second…
    Plse bear in mind this is just an illustration and not a reality lest someone think Troy Day is a devil and Isara MO is Adam
    The sequence of sin in my opinion is like this..
    It first entered heaven(rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. Satan rebelled while in heaven not on earth..
    Then He brought the sin to Adam and Adam distributed it all over the world….

  • Reply February 4, 2023

    Anonymous

    this is ALSO a good1 Duane L Burgess Kyle Williams John Mushenhouse

  • Reply February 5, 2023

    Anonymous

    Yes, the angelic rebellion preceded Adam’s fall.
    But it was all AFTER the six day Creation.
    We don’t know how soon, but Adam and Eve sinned before Eve became pregnant. Having children was the priority.

    • Reply February 5, 2023

      Anonymous

      For in six days Yahweh made the heavens and the earth, the sea and ALL that is in them… Ex. 20:11

      And God saw ALL that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day. Gen. 1

    • Reply February 5, 2023

      Anonymous

      Duane L Burgess consistent with gap theory? John Mushenhouse

  • Reply February 5, 2023

    Anonymous

    Yeah

  • Reply February 5, 2023

    Anonymous

    https://berniewade.company.site/War-on-Earth-p503751190

  • Reply February 6, 2023

    Anonymous

    Yes, please. “How art thou has fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weakens the nations!” (Isaiah 14:12).

Leave a Reply

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.