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What is the 1000 year reign of Christ?
Varnel Watson
Clearly explains WHY kingdom-now is a NO-NO Dan Irving
Dan Irving
What is the Millennium? It is certainly not a future utopian earthly kingdom.
Varnel Watson
for pre-mil 1,000 future Kingdom on earth with Christ physically present – to put it plainly
Dan Irving
But Jesus said “My kingdom is not of this world.” Was HE right, or are YOU right. (I’ll go with the Lord on this one.)
Theodore Ballard
The Kingdom within us is not of this earth, but the Kingdom that is to come will be right here on earth
Varnel Watson
It aint gonna be this world no more in the Millenium It will be His new world order
Rico Hero
Dan, I always took Jesus to mean, My kingdom is not of this world, because it will be from Heaven and will be established to do “Thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven”. Zech 14:1–1 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh,……4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the [c]mount of olives,…Dan, will “his feet stand in that day upon the mount of olives” or not? Theodore, “the kingdom within us”, seems to be a miss translation. “the kingdom is among us” for Jesus, the King was right there when he said it.
Varnel Watson
Dan Irving Rico Hero pls note DAKE uses here the term REIGN Christ’s 1000 yr reign is discussed in OP not Kingdom in general
Dan Irving
There will certainly be a revealing of Christ that is tangible upon His return. But while many suppose this will bring a 1,000 year utopia, the heavens and earth must must pass away upon His return. Other than Rev. 20 (which is symbolism) scripture is clear that we are not to suppose a material, earthly kingdom. There shall be a new heaven and new earth. What this means, I don’t think we know.
Rico Hero
Literally, it means heaven and earth will be renewed or made new again…I know those who interpret the Bible spiritually, they see symbolism in Rev 20 ,but the language is not symbolic here. If it was symbolic, we would be given the explanation of the symbols as it does with all other symbols. For example: the seven golden lamp stands,the man figure and stars in Rev.1:12-16 is explained in Rev.1:18-20; the dragon of Rev.12:3 is explained in Rev.12:9;and the beast of Rev.13:1 is explained in 13:18;17:8-17. .
Dan Irving
Rico Hero, Peter disagrees with you. (II Pet. 3:12) The very elements will dissolve upon Christ’s return.
Varnel Watson
and replaced by new ones Dan Irving namely on which will be established the Kingdom
Dan Irving
The kingdom was established by the work of Jesus Christ, long ago.
Varnel Watson
Not according to the book of Revelation and the message of the 7th angel there … Revelation 11:15
The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said: “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign for ever and ever.”
Dan Irving
I believe you’re too caught up in time-charts. The kingdom of God was clearly established by the Cross. See the prophecies of Daniel. God would establish his eternal kingdom in the days of the kings of the 4th Kingdom (ie. the Roman Empire) God did that. The kingdom of God comes with power today; upon those to whom God brings it.
Varnel Watson
isnt that precisely kingdom-now theology ?
Rico Hero
Hi Dan
2 Peter 3:12English Standard Version (ESV)
12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
Note:
To dissolve something does not mean “we are not to suppose a material, earthly kingdom”, because if you dissolve something is to break it up or weaken it, making it no longer recognizable. According to Paul , this will take place at the end of the day of the lord, not at the beginning.
Rev 20:
7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea. 9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but FIRE came down from heaven[b] and consumed them…..
Rev 21:21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Dan Irving
Troy Day, No. Kingdom Now is dominionism. As it perceives the kingdom of God as “of this world,” it makes the same mistake Millenarians make.
Dan Irving
Rico Hero. Your’e rationalizing, big time.
Rico Hero
To rationalize is a better way to go , than to spiritualize because it is the only way one can be sure what God says is what he actually means .
Mat .23 As for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it. He indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.”
Dan Irving
Rationalize: 5. to devise superficially rational or plausible excuses for one’s acts, beliefs, or desires, usually without being aware that these are not the real motives. BTW, When did “spiritualize” become a BAD thing? That is exactly what God is teaching us about.
Dan Irving
Be spiritually minded. Don’t be carnally-minded.
Rico Hero
If you spiritualize scripture, you look for a hidden meaning behind the literal word. Like those who see Rev 20 as symbolic when the language is not symbolic.( If it was symbolic, we would be given the explanation of the symbols as it does with all other symbols.) Thats when it became bad because anyone can say the text means anything they want it to. To rationalize can also mean to reorganize along rational lines. Isaiah 1:18King James Version (KJV)
18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord:.
Dan Irving
Your literalizing upon an obvious symbolic book has forced you to reject clear statements of the apostle Peter. Jesus as well, said that heaven and earth would pass away. Therefore, your literalizing upon symbolic prophecy forces you to reject Christ’s words, as well.
Rico Hero
God said the earth is forever, therefore, the passing away must refer to passing from one state to another. As for Revelation 20 being symbolic, how can you say that since the symbols are not clarified? How do you know what they mean? For example, Satan being bound. Is Satan a material being to you or not? The great white throne, is it real and material or not? Will people go to hell literally or not? How about statement like they will rule as kings and Priest on earth?
Dan Irving
If we take our theology from the Gospels and the epistles, we will not be led astray by prophetic symbolism. They will, rather, enhance our understanding. But you do the opposite. That leads to confusion.
Dan Irving
BTW, Your citations to the Psalms are an example. Psalms is speaking metaphorically. What is the foundation of the earth? It is an allegory for the work Jesus Christ performed in the earth. His Life, Death, and Resurrection. But, apparently, you literalize it to mean this sphere will survive the eons. ?
Rico Hero
Yes, Dan. I adhere to the literal method of interpretation because :This method is objective, and protects from presuppositions . This method safeguards from men’s imaginations and desires . It is only in this method that one can believe that what God said is what He actually meant . We should not interpret spiritually because: This method relies solely on the interpreter’s speculation, doctrinal position, church’s position or personal background . If the text does not say what it means, and the words do not carry their normal definitions, than anyone can say the text means anything they want it to. If the meaning can be anything we want it to be then there is no way to prove or test absolute truth in many areas of scripture using this method, for things have to always represent something beyond what is clearly stated.
The Bible says that “every way of man is right in his own eyes” (Proverbs 21:2). With this in mind, if we try to determine for ourselves what the text means then we are naturally going to curve everything to our own perceptions and understandings, such is true with the covenant theology.
Dan Irving
If you reject the spiritual meaning of prophetic scripture, I guess that is your prerogative.
Varnel Watson
Rico Hero How do you feel kingdom-now is bad for the Kingdom Ify Divine Nsoha
Ify Divine Nsoha
It’s bad because the focus is off. I disagree with Postmillenialism, but at least postmill puts the emphasis on the gospel. Kingdom now adds to the gospel, making it no gospel at all.
Rico Hero
If I understand Kingdom now correctly. It is a part of covenant theology and they deny the rapture.
Varnel Watson
No one understands kingdom-now correctly 🙂 Dan Irving
Ify Divine Nsoha
Yes I know that. It’s 7 mountains + apostles and prophets running the charge + extreme revivalism
Varnel Watson
well even that does not cover the social Jesus revolution; very little in American kingdom-now-ism is aware of the danger of Jesus the Revolutionist social gospel and liberation war. It is not so much the theology of kingdom-now but the civil war method which enforces it from what we’ve seen so far in recent Latin American history