Practical application of Pentecostal theology in politics, economy and social issues
This my Masters Dissertation on the history of the development of the doctrine of the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
http://pneumaandlogos.com/2013/08/22/from-purity-to-power-a-study-in-the-development-of-the-doctrine-of-the-baptism-of-the-holy-sp
In Exodus 3:18 Moses is commanded to gather the Israelite elders, go to Phara0h and say “יְהוָ֞ה אֱלֹהֵ֤י הָֽעִבְרִיִּים֙ נִקְרָ֣ה עָלֵ֔ינוּ וְעַתָּ֗ה נֵֽלֲכָה־נָּ֞א דֶּ֣רֶךְ שְׁלֹ֤שֶׁת יָמִים֙ בַּמִּדְבָּ֔ר וְנִזְבְּחָ֖ה לַֽיהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵֽינוּ” “The Lord, the God of the Hebrews appeared to us and now please let us go a journey of three days into the wilderness and we will slaughter to the Lord, our God.”
But in Exodus 5:1, Moses changes the words when talking to Pharaoh and says “כֹּֽה־אָמַ֤ר יְהוָה֙ אֱלֹהֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל שַׁלַּח֙ אֶת־עַמִּ֔י וְיָחֹ֥גּוּ לִ֖י בַּמִּדְבָּֽר” “So said the Lord, God of Israel, ‘send out my nation and they will celebrate to me in the wilderness.'” Pharoah responds (Exodus 5:2) by claiming ignorance of the Lord, saying “מִ֤י יְהוָה֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר אֶשְׁמַ֣ע בְּקֹל֔וֹ לְשַׁלַּ֖ח אֶת־יִשְׂרָאֵ֑ל לֹ֤א יָדַ֙עְתִּי֙ אֶת־יְהוָ֔ה וְגַ֥ם אֶת־יִשְׂרָאֵ֖ל לֹ֥א אֲשַׁלֵּֽחַ” “who is the Lord that I should listen to his voice to send out Israel; I don’t know the Lord and also Israel I will not send out.”
In the very next verse however, Moses reverts back to the message that God had told him to use and says “אֱלֹהֵ֥י הָעִבְרִ֖ים נִקְרָ֣א עָלֵ֑ינוּ נֵ֣לֲכָה נָּ֡א דֶּרֶךְ֩ שְׁלֹ֨שֶׁת יָמִ֜ים בַּמִּדְבָּ֗ר וְנִזְבְּחָה֙ לַֽיהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֵ֔ינוּ” “the God of the Hebrews appeared to us and now please let us go a journey of three days into the wilderness and we will slaughter to the Lord, our God.” This time Pharaoh doesn’t deny any knowledge of God but instead accuses Moses and Aaron of distracting the Israelites from their task and being lazy.
The simple reading of the text implies that Pharaoh did not know who the God of the Israelites was but did know who the God of the Hebrews was. And unlike the God of the Israelites, Pharaoh had at least some level of respect for the God of the Hebrews.
Is is possible that Pharaoh did not know that the God of the Israelites was the same as the God of the Hebrews? Is this evidence that the term Israelite and Hebrew were not viewed are referencing the same people (i.e. that Israelites were a subset of Hebrews)?
And if there was a really a difference between the terms, why did Moses change God’s message?
Donald W. Dayton
In your bibliography you have cited my THEOLOGICAL ROOTS OF PENTECOSTALISM
incorrectly.
Randal W Deese
This seems to be pretty accurate. What is interesting to me, however, is that Historical Orthodoxy always taught that the Gift of the Holy Spirit was received after faith/repentance/water Baptism. If it wasn’t for the Protestant Reformation ignoring those distinctions, Pentecostalism may have developed much earlier.
Varnel Watson
What distinctions would you say were ignored?
Randal W Deese
The Protestant Reformation took away the idea that salvation and receiving the Gift of the Holy Spirit were two separate events. They combined them into regeneration.
Varnel Watson
It did ?
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Are you serious? lol
Varnel Watson
You seem to know some “other” reformation How would you combine this in your Pentecostal quest. Orthodoxy teaches that is is all received in the water baptism (even infant) including church membership 🙂
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Actually, Chrismation is considered something that is done after water Baptism. You can look it up in hundreds of Orthodox catechisms. It isn’t hard to find – and church history.
Randal W Deese
Troy Day No. I know Reformation theology. Luther and Calvin hold to the idea of automationism..the idea that the Indwelling occurs at the time of “justification by faith”
Randal W Deese
Orthodoxy teaches that in chrismation a person is given the “power from on high” (Acts 1–2), the gift of the Spirit of God, in order to live the new life received in baptism.
Orthodoxy stresses that Chrismation should take place immediately after one is baptized because of Acts 2:38.
Varnel Watson
Randal W Deese you are playing with terms that do not really mean what you are saying May help to define what you mean when you use a term
Most orthodox do make difference between the baptism as a personal participation in the death and Resurrection of Christ and chrismation as a personal participation in the coming of the Holy Spirit
However, they are both administered to infants and freely if I may add, just to make sure they are issued baptismal license as members of the church
Now then, you dont really think there is a single Pentecostal who would agree that a new born infant who was just baptized and anointed has also received the HSB do you?
Randal W Deese
You are too funny. Don’t change the debate. We are taking about a doctrinal distinction – the distiction that supports the idea of a post baptismal Gift of the Holy Spirit. I stand in what I say. If you want to talk about how this relates to infants, we can.. But it is a different conversation.
Varnel Watson
hahah so you got cornered ah 🙂 I love it
Randal W Deese
Troy Day That is silly. You would be fun to debate cause of your looseness with interpretation rules… Haha
Varnel Watson
explain this chrismation then https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P4a1pVpECI
Randal W Deese
Troy Day After Baptism.. what’s so hard
Varnel Watson
title reads: silly orthodox priest just got cornered 😉
Varnel Watson
So this many from the video just got the HSB?
Varnel Watson
Come on Randal W Deese explain chrismation from the video and how it has anything to do with HSB of the BIBLE ?
Randal W Deese
Troy Day One reason I am Orthodox-Pentecostal is to bring back the dead ritual to a living reality. The doctrinal truth is already there. The flame needs fanned.
Btw, churches like Calvary Chapel do not believe that one will necessarily receive the evidence in their doctrine of BHS.
Many Churches are close, but need taught like Apollos – more accurately.
Varnel Watson
🙂
Varnel Watson
Come on Randal W Deese No on really believes absolute automationism – show some proof before such acclaim
Randal W Deese
I’m not going to do all the work for you… Because I’m surprised you don’t know this information… But here is one example. This comes from a Lutheran Theologian from LCMS:
“It is no less a miracle of God’s grace at work that an adult should believe by hearing the words of the Gospel, than that an infant should receive through Baptism the Spirit who creates the very faith by which one receives incorporation into Christ”
The Spirit is given automatically. There is no separation by action not doctrine.
Varnel Watson
Show it from Luther and Calvin like you claimed not some random copy paste from Google
Randal W Deese
Troy Day I am not near my library or I would easily show you. I have all of their writings… But you are probably near the sources… Do your research.
Varnel Watson
easily 🙂 sure
Randal W Deese
Troy Day It isn’t rocket science.
Varnel Watson
Like I said you are throwing around terms without clue what they mean or where they came from So typically Orthodox. You will have more luck making Orthodox priests under Putin Pentecostal than making Pentecostal othdox 🙂 the automation of chrismation assembly line
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Well, sorry to disappoint… I’m talking and bringing in Pentecostal pastors and churches into Orthodoxy regularly. Your to late with your false prophecy
Varnel Watson
the automation of chrismation assembly line 🙂
Randal W Deese
Troy Day
I practice Chrismation that includes speaking in tongues… : )
Varnel Watson
probably on infants too as a good lutheran
Randal W Deese
Troy Day With infants in Orthodox-Pentecostalism, we breath on them prophetically, like Jesus in John 20:22
Randal W Deese
They will receive their Pentecost later
Varnel Watson
#epicFail you aint Jesus infants are not the disciples priesthood of all believers and so on and so on
Randal W Deese
Troy Day and that proves what?
Varnel Watson
your wrong hermeneutics on jn 20
Randal W Deese
Troy Day like infant dedication is? Lol
Varnel Watson
obviously you dont understand dedication either
Randal W Deese
Troy Day Oh, you mean that non Scriptural practice that so many follow and pretend it is Biblical, that one?