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Henry Volk | PentecostalTheology.com
Has anyone here ever dabbled with a Pentecostal liturgy? I certainly don’t see where adopting an older form of Methodist liturgy would be inappropriate for a Pentecostal church.
Peter A Vandever [02/22/2016 10:31 AM]
Lindell Colley has done it.
John Kissinger [02/22/2016 12:53 PM]
There’s a great deal of studies on pentecostal sacraments, but unfortunately done by folk that never been part of the sacramental culture Peter A Vandever you should well know that Brownsville and Pensacola were of interest only on part of AG and namely for almost splitting the organization. No one else was really affected much and did not much care about them
Wolfgang Vondey [02/22/2016 3:20 PM]
On Pentecostal rituals, see Daniel Albrecht’s book, Rites in the Spirit. For sacraments, see Daniel Tomberlin’s book, Pentecostal sacraments. On the issue of liturgy see my book, Beyond Pentecostalism. For particulars, see Chris Green’s book, Toward a Pentecostal Theology of the Lord’s Supper.
Link Hudson [02/22/2016 3:36 PM]
Pentecostals have an unwritten liturgy, the hymn sandwich with a lot thicker bread (longer singing time) than your typical evangelical service.
Troy Day [02/22/2016 4:29 PM]
Hymn? When was the last time you went to a Pentecostal church – the 60s? Mr. Henry Volk Did you see the link about Scalia’s liturgy not as good as expected. Pls post it here if you have it
Terry Wiles [02/22/2016 4:34 PM]
We all have a liturgy. Some are more understandable than others.
John Kissinger [02/22/2016 5:39 PM]
meanwhile in a non-Pentecostal church somwhere
John Kissinger [02/22/2016 5:56 PM]
Dr. Vondey could you recommend a Pentecostal author with liturgical background? William DeArteaga makes an excellent case for that…
John B. Gaither [02/24/2016 10:48 AM]
I light Advent each week at Christmas, and my old time folks wonder who I am. After 16 years now some still wonder what I’m doing it for.
Varnel Watson
Daniel Blaylock No need to even dig on this one. Too big of a hole
Hunter McLain
Liturgy is often to restrictive and doesn’t allow the Spirit to Move People, but. It can be done right where it doesn’t interfere. Asbury’s Churches often did.
Varnel Watson
No liturgy is needed when the Spirit is moving Robert Borders
Hunter McLain
Amen!
Joseph Kidwell
It all depends on how one defines “liturgy”. As Pentecostals though, our dependence should be on the leading and guiding of the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost is the chief administrator of Pentecostal services.
Daniel Blaylock
And we already have a low-church version of liturgy. We pre-select the orchestra’s prelude, the worship music package, and what the choir will sing. We prepare our sermons in advance–sometimes well in advance if we’re preaching a series. By the way, the word “ministry” in Hebrew 8:6 is the Greek word “leitourgia”–from which we get the word “liturgy”. Dr. Paul Walker, former general overseer of the COG, says it is the “work of God done by the people of God in worship”.
Varnel Watson
orchestra’s prelude? what in the world is an orchestra’s prelude Robert Borders Street Preacherz
Daniel Blaylock
Our church has an orchestra–full band, horn section, flute, etc. You can’t just call out a hymn number, bro. They play before service a song to get everyone’s heart focused on worship.
Street Preacherz
Orchestra prelude is the racket before the show that tells you to find your seat.
Joseph Kidwell
Right! LOL!!!
Varnel Watson
What? The sermon on he mount had no orchestra’s prelude? What Peter preached on Pentecost with no orchestra’s prelude? Wha-a-a-t?
Daniel Blaylock
Does the church you attend sing with instrumental accompaniment? Jesus didn’t have a piano player or Redneck hymnal either. And the Sermon on the Mount was pre-Pentecost.
Joseph Kidwell
Many of my sermons are closed with an organ backup. Remember that Elisa, when on one occasion was called on for a word from the Lord, said”bring a minstrel’. The anointing on the prophet followed.
Daniel Blaylock
I’m still trying to figure out what kind of Pentecostal church Troy attends that doesn’t have instrumental music. Sounds more Church of Christ than Church of God. 🙂
Varnel Watson
Another banal comment. What’s its significance to Pentecostal theology
Daniel Blaylock
About as significant as your comment that Jesus did not have an orchestral prelude prior to the sermon on the mount.
Daniel Blaylock
The point was this: in a Pentecostal church that has a good music program, such as a full choir, band, horn section, small orchestra, etc. music must be well-prepared, planned in advance, and practiced. A pastor’s sermon is also well planned in advance, as well as the other elements of the worship service. If we are going to obey Paul’s command to Timothy to “make much of the public reading of Scripture” by adding a congregational or responsive reading, that must be selected and prepared in advance. We don’t just get up on a Sunday with no plan in mind at all and see what direction the Holy Spirit wants to go. We plan the service prayerfully and let the Spirit guide our planning. (The Holy Spirit knows what he wants to do on the previous Thursday just as much as he does on that particular Sunday morning.) Then if He chooses to take the service a different direction, we are flexible enough to follow His leading. In order for things to be done “decently and in order “, there must be an order. Planning these elements constitutes a low church form of a liturgy.
Hunter McLain
Sunday night at Church we had no set Hymns, the song leader just picked what The Spirit lead. And we originally weren’t going to have a sermon but The Spirit lead and The Preacher just Preached. Nothing Prepared. Pure Spirit lead worship.
Daniel Blaylock
Hunter McLain does it happen that way every service at your church? Does your pastor never prepare to preach? Does the song leader never have a list of which hams he’s going to sing? Could the Holy Spirit who lead your song leader in the service not have spoken to him before the service or two days before the service?
Daniel Blaylock
My point is why does it have to be spontaneous in order to be Spirit led? Spontaneous is not always Spirit led. Spirit led is not always spontaneous. The Holy Spirit can direct our planning.
Joseph Kidwell
Daniel Blaylock, I agree with you 100%.
Hunter McLain
Sermons are not scripted. Pastors will study the passages and the topic but it is not scripted.
Daniel Blaylock
Hunter McLain , there’s a wide variety among Pentecostal preachers. Some use an outline, a full manuscript, some memorize the sermon completely so they can preach without notes (like Raymond Culpepper, Paul Walker, or Mark Williams).
Varnel Watson
Spirit led means liturgically free. If the Son has set you free…
Daniel Blaylock
Who says?
Varnel Watson
Jesus – the Eternal Son of the Father
Daniel Blaylock
The verse you quoted is out of context. John 8 is talking about being free from sin; he’s not even addressing how detailed the planning of a worship service is.
Varnel Watson
Daniel Blaylock You assume too much my brother. But that does not make you an expert. In ancient Athens liturgy was a public office or duty performed voluntarily by a rich Athenian. In the liturgical church liturgy was set and conducted by the same. In Pentecostalism the church order is done by the Holy Ghost. Can I get a witness Brody Pope Hunter McLain
Daniel Blaylock
My experience is that order in the Pentecostal church is a mixed bag–sometimes led by the Spirit, sometimes led by the pastor/song leader, in reality always a cooperation of both!
The word “leitourgia” is also the Greek word used for “ministry” in Hebrews 8:5–long before there was a “liturgical” church. Dr. Paul Walker describes “liturgy” as the “work of the people” in worship. (I’m not an expert, but I did get an A in all 4 semesters of Greek, and I know that the passage in John 8 is about freedom from sin, not what we do on Sunday morning.)
Hunter McLain
AMEN brother Troy!
Brody Pope
Agreed
Daniel Blaylock
Do you believe that the worship leader/pastor is always being led by the Spirit in a Pentecostal church service? Is that always your experience? Have you been in services in Pentecostal services where that was not the case?
Brody Pope
I just believe that sometimes God has other plans rather than the normal order of service.
Daniel Blaylock
Brody Pope, that’s not the question. Does the pastor, worship leader, etc. every misread that direction?
Brody Pope
If they aren’t tuned in like they should be, then yes.
Daniel Blaylock
Brody Pope , and was there already a “plan” in place before the service began?
Brody Pope
Yes.
Brody Pope
Every message I preach, I’ve prayed over it, studied it, I’ve sought God, and when I preach I know it’s what I feel God wants me to preach.
Brody Pope
Sometimes I’ve never gotten the chance to preach because the Holy Ghost took over.
Daniel Blaylock
So even in a Pentecostal service:
1. We generally have an order of worship planned before service (a low-church form of “liturgy”–the work of worship the people will offer to God).
2. The service is led by a human being who, while we hope is attuned to the Holy Spirit, is also fallible and could miss God and take the service the wrong direction.
So in actual, Pentecostals can/do have an order of worship, and the Holy Spirit is not always the one who actually “leads” the service.
Of course, we believe the Spirit can and does lead us during the service. Of course He has the sovereign right to interrupt what we have planned and take things a different direction. But to say that we don’t have some idea in mind in terms of order, music, sermon is simply untrue. And to say that the worship leader is an infallible guide is also an overstatement.
Daniel Blaylock
Brody Pope, of course. But you did prepare in advance! You did “study to show thyself approved unto God”. You didn’t just expect God to download it into your brain the moment you stepped up.
If the Spirit can lead on the spot, He can direct our study, prayer, planning, etc.
Brody Pope
I believe in having an order of service. God is a God of order and His house should be in order as well.
Daniel Blaylock
And that doesn’t make us un-Pentecostal. It makes us un-Corinthian! 🙂
Brody Pope
I agree.
Brody Pope
My comment wasn’t meant to mean that I don’t believe in an order of service. I just believe that God can step in at any time.
Daniel Blaylock
Absolutely. We regularly have divine interruptions–a message in tongues or a service where I don’t get to preach. But on many Sundays, we do exactly what we planned to do–the instrumental numbers, the praise music, the choir special, the Scripture readings, a pastoral prayer that ends with us all praying the Lord’s prayer together, the sermon, a communion service with collective prayers from the psalms we pray together, an altar call–and God uses that to accomplish His will. People are saved, healed, and filled with the Spirit in such services, too.
And the more musicians you involve (growing from a piano to a band to an orchestra or from a song leader to a praise team to a full choir), the more technology you have (words on screens, Scriptures up, lyrics up, etc.) the more pre-planning has to occur for the service to be done well.
Varnel Watson
Daniel Blaylock Allow me to teach by an example:
In your respective church, while following your Sunday liturgy, a voice from the back begins speaking in tongues and it demands interpretation of the message. What do you do:
1) Disregard the message in tongues from the Holy Sprit and proceed with your liturgical order, reading, hymn or an episcopalia (yes this is spelled right pls look it up). If so, yes you have liturgy and no you are not Pentecostal cause you have just quenched the Holy Ghost.
2) Or everything stops and the congregation awaits interpretation of the message thus disrupting your set liturgical order. Now you see how in Pentecostalism liturgy is virtually impossible and practically unattainable.
Daniel Blaylock
The word “liturgy” simply has a broader pool of meaning than you’re assigning it. We would await the interpretation. If there is not one, we would move onto the next pre-planned portion of the order of worship (the liturgy). Every church has some type of “liturgy” or “pre-planned” program–even if it’s two hymns, the offering, a special, and a sermon.
Robert Borders
This is where the pastor takes over and makes up an interpretation.
Daniel Blaylock
Robert Borders — More often than we’d like to admit! ?
Varnel Watson
You keep your liturgy I will keep the order of the Holy Spirit 🙂
Daniel Blaylock
Troy Day –we’ll keep BOTH!
Varnel Watson
Well thats a good stand IMO but I strongly disagree that there could be balance between the two. Its like having the world in the church and combining it together. Hence this here discussion
Daniel Blaylock
Well, opinions are like armpits. And it is not having the world in the church. The world didn’t write the book of Psalms. The world doesn’t write the creative prayers that help people learn to pray more substantively and when they are alone because of the time spent in corporate worship; godly men like John Wesley and A.W. Tozer did. The world doesn’t creatively organize our worship services every week; our Holy Ghost-filled, praying staff members do.
Varnel Watson
And with this back to my question above. How do you respond if the Spirit moves but you have your order of service – which one do you abandon first?
Daniel Blaylock
Troy Day I already answered that question; see above. “When the horse dies, dismount.” The issue is not which one do you abandon. The issue is that you were already doing something else when the Spirit took the service a different direction; you had a liturgy! Maybe you’re a Quaker, not a Pentecostal.
Varnel Watson
The Spirit does not die – sorry my friend
Daniel Blaylock
Troy Day, no one said he did. Once again, this same conversation has dissolved into kicking strawman. I’m not doing this all day. I’m too busy leading an actual thriving Pentecostal church where we enjoyed both good order and powerful move of the Holy Spirit. I’m going to get ready for such a service tonight. I’m not going to argue with you about it all day. Goodbye
Joseph Kidwell
That’s the same type of church that I lead, Daniel Blaylock. You made an interesting observation there. I actually attended a Friend’s Meeting (Quaker) for about a year as a teenager. You are correct. There is a vast difference between Pentecost and Quakerism.
Fr. Timothy Cremeens
There is this undeniable FACT; the early Apostolic Church was hierarchical, sacramental, liturgical (not a “free-for-all in the Spirit type Pentecostalism) AND charismatic. THEY were able to hold it all together, why can’t it happen in the 21st century. Alexander Boddy, an Anglican priest was Pentecostal AND worshipped with the Book of Common Prayer. Edward Irving and the Catholic Apostolic Church had high liturgy AND prophecy and tongues. What did they understand that we don’t today?
Varnel Watson
Henry Volk I quit doing that long time ago