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ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION: Our main doctrines are three: repentance, faith and holiness #ourCOG
“Our main doctrines, which include all the rest, are three: That of repentance, of faith, and of holiness. The first of these we account, as it were, the porch of religion; the next, the door; the third, religion itself.” – John Wesley
“You cannot be half a saint; you must be a whole saint or no saint at all.” – Therese of Lisieux
John Kissinger [02/03/2016 1:27 PM]
Another detail diagram WHAT IS and WHAT IS NOT ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION according to the Wesleyan (legitimate and illegitimate) definitions of faith and ordo solutis in regard of ENTIRE sanctification
John Kissinger [02/03/2016 4:41 PM]
In the March 22, 1899, issue of the Apostolic Faith magazine Parham listed his beliefs: “salvation by faith; healing by faith, laying on of hands, and prayer; sanctification by faith; coming (pre-millennium) of Christ; the baptism of Holy Ghost and Fire, which seals the Bride and bestows the gifts.”
Varnel Watson
i.e. not enough for Trump to say he got saved. Fruits of sanctification must be abundant afterwords Timothy Carter Charles Page Karen Lucas
Timothy Carter
I agree that repentance means to turn completely around.
Charles Page
Can a Presbyterian be president of the US?
Timothy Carter
What? Charles Page, what? Yes, actually, Presbyterian is the most common religion of past US presidents.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_affiliations_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States
Varnel Watson
And while @ it yall pls notice that
(1) most of them were sworn on the Book of Mason
(2) or a the Bible from Grand Mason Lodge in Alexandria, VA
(3) or on a Bible from 1st Presbyterian in DC open on a passage with masonic significance
(4) or in most cases a combination of the above open on references of one religion and world domination
Are you still persuaded you are voting for a political leader and not a spiritual one?
Timothy Carter
Troy Day do you have references for each point or do you present this as common knowledge? Some have said that the Mason connection is conspiracy.
Varnel Watson
Absolutely. All quotes are with reference. Surprised you did not know that but LOC keeps detail record of these things and they are a public record:
George Washington 1789 Genesis 49:131 (Masonic Bible); opened at random due to haste – verse as you see is anything but random 🙂 “Zebulun will live by the seashore and become a haven for ships; his border will extend toward Sidon. – the masonic basis for the foundation of the United States
Richard M. Nixon 1969, 1973 Two family Bibles, both open to Isaiah 2:4
George H. W. Bush 1989 Washington’s Masonic bible
https://memory.loc.gov/ammem/pihtml/pibible.html
There is another longer article with explanations and commentaries which you can find. It will tell you why each passage was chosen and how does it relate to the belief system of the masonic cult. Also some had the book of Law as well open on articles with masonic significance. But the so called MASON Bible which is the one always brought specifically for these ceremonies from the Great Loge in Alexandria aka oldest Masonic lodges in the United States officially known as Alexandria-Washington Lodge No. 22. The building of the lodge is built to look alike the Alexandrian Light house – one of the 7 miracles of the ancient world also connected with masonic mastery of building blocks
Varnel Watson
Peter Christian Are you familiar with Wesley’s view on entire sanctification?
Peter Christian
Yes I am. Wesley has cleansed himself almost godlike
Daniel Blaylock
You obviously haven’t understood Wesley; the goal of salvation is full restoration to the image of God.
Peter Christian
Of mankind? Thats the goal?
Show me text proofs pls.
Daniel Blaylock
Peter, that’s what was lost at the Fall. Paul says we were predestined to be conformed to the image of God his dear son. Ephesians chapter 1, Romans 8.
Daniel Blaylock
In first John, he says when we see him we will be like him. That’s the goal.
Daniel Blaylock
2 Peter 1 says that through God’s promises we were made “partakers of the divine nature” and that we escape the corruption in the world.
Peter Christian
You realise that we live in this body which is corruptible and sinful. It will never change.
Daniel Blaylock
The flesh in Paul’s theology is not identical with our human bodies. That’s Gnosticism and it’s heresy. Sanctification cleanses our human nature and purifies our motives.
Daniel Blaylock
I Thess 5:23-24 says that God will sanctify you wholly and keep your spirit, soul, and BODY blameless until the coming of the Lord.
“Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” 2 Cor 7:1
“25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.”–Ezekiel 36
Peter Christian
Are you clean and free of sins?
Daniel Blaylock
I am walking in the light as He is in the light, and His blood continually cleanses me from all sin. (I John 1:7).
Daniel Blaylock
Peter Christian I am walking in the light as He is in the light, and His blood continually cleanses me from all sin. (I John 1:7).
Daniel Blaylock
Are you free from sin’s power? John 8:38–you can be.
Varnel Watson
Peter Christian The divining of the self was something practiced by most of the Dessert Church Fathers and consecutive Orthodox church. Wesley simply put in writing what many like the Moravian brothers believed and practiced for centuries since the Early Church. One important question before we continue – do you see Wesley as the Pelagian heresy and sine you most probably do, can you explain why? IMHO both have nothing to do with each other but lets here your position on that before proceed with entire sanctification
Peter Christian
Following
Varnel Watson
? Pelagian ?
Peter Christian
Does he not subscribe to original sin and TD?
Varnel Watson
What relevance do you see with Pelagianism?
Daniel Blaylock
Peter, he believed in prevenient grace.
Daniel Blaylock
http://www.seedbed.com/a-primer-on-prevenient-grace/
Varnel Watson
Do you think this is fundamental or cultural Terry Wiles
Terry Wiles
Troy Day
Just struggling with the various translations presented in current popular bibles that are promoted by Bible Colleges and Seminaries.
Varnel Watson
Give us 1-2-3 examples Terry Wiles
Terry Wiles
NIV, NKJV, NLT, and note in ESV
Varnel Watson
what is your struggle with them? NLT is a major fail
Terry Wiles
Troy Day No struggle. Just noting that NIV is the choice of AoG educators, ESV seems to be the reformed choice, NKJV is a standard substitute for the KJV, and NLT is popular with the buying public.
All of these use a “mankind” translation of the plural.
Varnel Watson
well now you said above “Just struggling”
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles how do you feel your struggle with Bible version affects your entire sanctification ?
Terry Wiles
Not at all
Varnel Watson
Terry are you sure? You seem to be siding against Wesley’s desire to challenge the Roman Catholic’s confusion on justification and sanctification which led to his emphasis on justification marking the beginning of the Spirit’s sanctifying work in the lives of the believers. Wesley’s emphasis on holy living underlies the theological difference in the way that the two theologians define justification and sanctification. Sanctification can be illuminated as a process when it is compared against Luther’s focus on justification. If one does not believe free will Weslyan sanctification he/she simple sides with the Catholic confusion brought in the teachings of Augustune Melvin Harter
Terry Wiles
Not at all. I have a righteousness that is not my own but Christ’s. Bible versions have nothing to do with my sanctification. They serve as guides to understanding God’s Word and they remain reliable records of God’s revelation to man.
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles No one claims righteousness is ours. The matter of discussion is how the righteousness of Christ becomes ours? Wesley says supernaturally through 2nd work of sanctification; Others more Catholic than him say sanctification is progressive and the believer personally progresses in it (not sure how long and until when) Melvin Harter have rightly explained progressive sanctification is nothing else but a Catholic doctrine that borders personal penance -Simply no other way around it
Terry Wiles
Even your own posts contradict that nonsense.
Varnel Watson
YES – my view is Weslyan repentance sanctification baptism Most Pentecostals are mainly Catholic in their soteriological views
Varnel Watson
George Hartwell Lyndsey Dunn Joe Absher and this is where RichardAnna Boyce is ENTIRELY WRONG when writing
Wesley’s doctrine of entire sanctification leans heavily on his vague definition of sin. He believed that a Christian who has experienced entire sanctification enjoys freedom from deliberate sins.
As a young man pursuing his education away from home, John Wesley—who later founded the Methodist Church—wrote to his mother seeking her advice on “acceptable pastimes” and “temptations to be resisted.” Instead of sending him a lengthy list of dos and don’ts, this is what she wrote:
Would you judge the lawfulness of pleasure, take this rule:
Whatever weakens your reason,
Whatever increases the authority of your body over your mind,
Whatever impairs the tenderness of your conscience,
Whatever takes away your relish for things spiritual,
Whatever obscures your sense of God,
That is sin to you, no matter how innocent it may seem in itself.
There are two kinds, or stages of repentance prior to initial salvation, according to Wesley’s interpretation. The first he calls “legal” repentance, which is “a thorough conviction of sin,” and the second is “evangelical” repentance, or “a change of heart (and consequently of life) from all sin to all holiness.
Writing to Joseph Benson on December 28, 1770, respecting entire sanctification, he exhorted him to confirm the brethren “with all zeal and diligence” in a two-fold manner, first, “in holding fast that whereto they have attained-namely, the remission of all their sins by faith in a bleeding Lord,” and secondly, “in expecting a second change, whereby they shall be saved from all sin and perfected in love.”
Wesleyan entire sanctification differs from gnostic Free grace where Wesley writes The Holy Spirit seeks to engender “a deep conviction that we are not yet whole; that our hearts are not fully purified; that there is yet in us a ‘carnal mind,’ which is still in its nature ‘enmity against God’; that the whole body of sin remains in our heart, weakened indeed, but not destroyed.”
It is very obvious that Wesley’s doctrine of Christian perfection would make it
necessary for him to make very clear what was his doctrine of sin. He felt it very
necessary to draw clear lines of distinction in his definitions. These distinctions especially
show up in his discussion of the subject of sin. It is absolutely impossible to get
any true concept of Wesley’s doctrine of holiness without coming to a clear understanding
of what he taught concerning sin. In this paper it is my purpose to clarify
as much as possible, Wesley’s concept of sin.
following the topcis of :
1. Original Sin or Inherited Depravity
2. The Fallen State of Present Man
3. The Act of Sin in the Unbeliever
4. The State of Sin in the Believer
5. The “Sins” of the Sanctified
Here is a summary of the five ideas about sin found in Wesley’s writings.
1. Man fell in the Garden of Eden and became totally depraved and passed this
depravity on to his descendants.
2. Though man as he is born into this world inherits the guilt of Adam and is under
the curse of sin, yet God’s grace is extended to him, removing the guilt of Adam’s
sin and extending power to lift him to the place of choice and redemption.
3. The only sin in man which will condemn him eternally is the personal, wilful
choice rejecting the grace which God has given to him. This is what Wesley
called wilful transgression of a known law.
4. Believers are sinners only in the sense that corruption still remains in them and
they have to fight against this pride and jealousy, which keep exerting themselves
in the believer’s life.
5. Though there is cleansing from the corruption of the evil heart and the enablement
to love God with all the heart in an experience of entire sanctification, there
still remains in the life of the believer sins of ignorance and sins of infirmity. For
these the person needs continual cleansing of the blood of Christ.
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/back-to-the-basics-of-the-role-of-the-holy-spirit-in-entire-sanctification-in-the-writings-of-john-wesley/
Joe Absher
thank you
George Hartwell
In spite of faulty theology, Wesley lead many into an experience and life of holiness and the Methodists in prayer sought open communion with God by removing the idols of their heart. They considered the process complete and communication with God open, when they received a baptism in peace. That peace is the experience of Spirit affirmed community and can be found in the literature on community building in groups (Scott Peck). Se Wesley knew what he was talking about. His movement had the keys to sanctification. We lost them, it seems. The life and truth of this practice got plowed to death my men trying to put it into words. Death by theology.
Varnel Watson
George Hartwell While Wesley learned of the doctrine of justification from the Reformers, his
doctrine of Christian perfection came to him through the tradition of the Anglican
church. He realized as much as anyone else the aroused opposition to his teaching of
perfection. He wrote in his sermon on “Christian Perfection” the following words;
“There is scarce any expression in holy writ which has given more offence than
this. The word perfect is what many cannot bear. The very sound of it is an abomination
to them.” In his defense of this doctrine of Christian perfection, Wesley did not
diminish nor alter his views concerning the doctrine of justification by faith
George Hartwell
Perhaps he was a perfectionist?
Varnel Watson
Perhaps GOD is a perfectionist?
George Hartwell
God doesn’t have to be.
RichardAnna Boyce
Wesley admitted there is always room for a Christian to develop in maturity.
He believed Christians can enjoy greater degree of freedom from sin than Reformed theologians thought possible. He went as far as to assert that Christians can be delivered from willful sin.
and that this level of sanctification can occur before death .
For this reason, Wesley often said that Christians should not be
“content with any religion which does not imply the destruction of all the works of the devil, that is, of all sin.” We can fulfill God’s law of love in this life, despite all the failings and imperfections of the world.
This is what Wesley calls the “optimism of grace.”
Varnel Watson
As far as can be determined, Wesley always painted a dark picture of sin. There
is no evidence that he had to alter his view when he came to believe in the doctrine
of justification by faith alone. His opinions concerning the sinfulness of man were
well established by the time he began his evangelical revival.
George Hartwell
Thanks for that breath of fresh air.
RichardAnna Boyce
Reformation tradition, with its emphasis on imputed righteousness,
neglects Paul’s teaching that existential deliverance from sin is available in Christ.
Since the life of Jesus is being revealed in them, Christians should “not let sin reign in their mortal bodies.”
They have been “set free from sin and have become slaves to God.”
For Wesley and his followers, then, any view of sanctification that doesn’t hold out the possibility of real, experiential deliverance from sin in this life falls short of the full Gospel.
RichardAnna Boyce
Pentecostal theologian Horton cites a number of verses to show that Christians don’t always measure up to their positional sanctification. Corinthians, despite being called sanctified in 1 Cor. 6:11, were still addressed as “infants” in 1 Cor. 3:1.
Other passages indicate that self-control needs to be learned (1 Thes. 4:3-4),
and that old habits, like lying, must be renounced (Col. 3:5-10).
While Wesleyans claim they have been released from willful sin through entire sanctification,
Horton believes these claims result in “making God out to be a liar.” (Melvin E. Dieter, Anthony A. Hoekema, Stanley M. Horton, J. Robertson McQuilkin, John F. Walvoord, Five Views on Sanctification (Grand Rapids, Mich.: Zondervan, 1987), p. 118. )
He also holds that the blood of Christ cleanses us from our sin in an ongoing way.
This is in contrast to the notion that there is no need for Christians to repeatedly seek to be cleansed from their sins.
What does progressive sanctification look like?
According to Horton, Christians moving forward in this process regularly put God’s will into practice,
demonstrate the fruits of obedience, and exhibit a selfless willingness to do whatever God asks them to do.
Entire sanctification
Pentecostals in the Assemblies of God reject Holiness claims to be able to reach a state of sinless perfection in this life.
They contend that the old nature is still active in a Christian and that claims of perfection depend on a weakened definition of sin.
Despite these objections, however, they still use the term “entire sanctification.”
Instead of abandoning the term, they redefine it as:
(1) following the purposes and desires of God to the best of one’s ability or
(2) an event that occurs when Christ comes back and gives us glorified bodies.
Thus, the term entire sanctification is being used here in a way that is entirely different than Wesley’s usage.
RichardAnna Boyce
Pentecostals, mindful that the work of the Holy Spirit is often neglected by other theological schools, are quick to point out the role the Spirit plays in progressive sanctification.
Horton believes that of all the works of the Spirit, the New Testament highlights sanctification foremost.
“The Holy Spirit here is the agent, and His work is the most important means of our progressive sanctification.” To underscore his point, he cites numerous verses that teach the central role that the Holy Spirit plays in our growth (1 Cor. 6:11; 2 Thes. 2:13; Rom. 15:16; 1 Peter 1:1-2).
One of the most important ways that the Holy Spirit helps sanctify Christians is by helping them to understand and benefit from the Word of God.
The Word itself is the Spirit’s primary tool in accomplishing our growth and maturity.
The Spirit teaches us the Word, guides us to the truth (John 14:17,26; 15:26; 16:12-13; 1 John 4:6) and uses the Word to “give us a clear vision of Jesus and inspire us with a deep desire to be like him.”[40]
Of course, Christians must cooperate with the Spirit’s work in their lives by depending on his Word for guidance and being willing to obey it.
RichardAnna Boyce
Pentecostal Horton admits that being baptized in the Holy Spirit is not a sanctifying experience in and of itself.
It doesn’t elevate one to a higher level of sanctification like Wesley’s entire sanctification. Christians still need to deepen in maturity and grow as they become more involved in selfless ministry to other people.
Horton studiously avoids the overemphasis on tongues often associated with the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
He says that Christians should strive for the “greater gifts” mentioned in 1 Cor. 12:31, and believes gifts in general are most likely to be discovered in the context of active service to God.
Horton also points out that love is “necessary to make (spiritual) gifts effective to the highest degree and to bring the proper reward.”
Varnel Watson
so you couldnt win with Wesley and jumped on Horton I doubt you have a good grasp on Horton as your theology is gnostic BUT I can take you on that subject as well under a separate topic
George Hartwell
Troy Day Does someone win?
RichardAnna Boyce
Horton believes that Christians are indwelled by the Spirit when they are converted.
In addition to the Spirit’s indwelling,
Horton claims that Christians receive a second blessing called the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a post-conversion[44]
experience in which a Christian enjoys the true fullness of the Spirit.
It results in a higher level of devotion and increased ability to evangelize and worship. This life-defining event is evidenced by speaking in tongues, and enables believers “to respond to the full working of the Spirit.”[45]
Free Grace finds no biblical basis for the existence of an additional work of the Spirit as described by Horton.
His belief that such an experience exists relies on (1) his interpretation of 1 Cor. 12:13 and
(2) a distinction he makes between baptism by the Spirit and baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Varnel Watson
Wesley had but this one definition of sin. That definition is given
as “a voluntary transgression of a known law.” It is true that Wesley gave this definition
of sin and considered it to be the only proper one. For an act to be really a sin,
then, in Wesley’s mind, there must first be a knowledge of the law and second, the
disobedience is wilful. Wesley defined this kind of sin in these following words,
By sin, I here understand outward sin, according to the plain, common
acceptation of the word; an actual voluntary transgression of the law; of the
revealed, written law of God; of any commandment of God, acknowledged to
be such at the time it is transgressed.
RichardAnna Boyce quite wrong when stated Wesley had no clear definition of sin Seems quite clear to most
George Hartwell
I am going to look up Horton.
Varnel Watson
you dont know Horton? >???
George Hartwell
Nope. I am not a theologian and not a pentecostal and have not heard of Horton but like why I have learned today.
Varnel Watson
George Hartwell figures most of my question http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/stanley-m-horton-shaper-of-pentecostal-theology/
Varnel Watson
RichardAnna Boyce George Hartwell One needs to understand clearly what Wesley is writing about when he made this
definition. This was his understanding of I John 3:9 where the apostle declared that
the believer who is born of God does not commit sin and that he cannot sin because
he is born of God. It is the sin which the believer cannot commit. The voluntary
transgression of a known law is the sin which only the unbeliever can commit. Since
Wesley insisted on this definition for the unbeliever’s sin, one must not make the
mistake of concluding that it is the only kind of sin that Wesley wrote about.
Why did Wesley insist on this definition so strongly? Wesley wanted to make
clear what that sin is which truly separates from God. In the light of divine grace
he could not believe that Adam’s sin can condemn a person eternally. Nor could
he believe that those sins which are ignorantly committed, or come as a result of
the weakness of human nature, can condemn one eternally. Only that is sin which is
personal, and is “an act of the soul itself,” and is a free act of the individual. Grace
lifts man to the place that he can resist sin. Therefore, he is accountable when he
neglects or resists that grace which is given to enable him to resist sin. Wesley believed
that by grace man can avoid all sin of this kind
Varnel Watson
By sin, I here understand outward sin, according to the plain, common
acceptation of the word; an actual voluntary transgression of the law; of the
revealed, written law of God; of any commandment of God, acknowledged to
be such at the time it is transgressed. JOHN WESLEY
Would not then the moral depravity within the heart of a sinner make a man
guilty? Wesley believed that the guilt of this depravity will not condemn one eternally
until by his own free choice man makes that depravity his own. In a sense, when
a man becomes accountable, he ratifies the inner nature of sin as his own and is
therefore condemned for it. Any condemnation before this personal ratification is
universally removed in Christ. When man chooses to follow die evil within him, he
becomes a sinner, properly speaking. Wilful sin, therefore, is committed only by the
unbeliever who is capable of free choice. An infant has not yet committed a sin. Their
salvation consists in the salvation from the guilt of Adam’s sin. No believer commits
a wilful sin while he is a believer. Wilful sins are the only ones that can send a person
to hell.2