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A fresh (and eye witness) look at the “Kansas City Prophets.” I was an eye witness to the mess
John Kissinger [01/10/2016 8:49 AM]
“… The experience of the Corinthian church gives evidence that abuse and misuse can creep into the operation of the gifts of the Spirit if the vessel is not wholly submissive to the guidance and control of the Holy Spirit. That is why Paul said the message of the prophet spoken in the New Testament church should be judged by all who were hearing the message. The judging most likely was to ask how the prophecy conformed to the whole of Scripture…”
Source: http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/topics/sptlissues_prophets_prophecies.cfm
John Kissinger [01/11/2016 10:17 AM]
an even fresher 2016 look at Kansas city iHOP reveals that its eschatology has moved toward kingdom-now eschatology. #iHOP and its post-millennial shift toward Dominion kingdom-now theology and NAR’s twist on the traditional charismatic teaching. This video from GOD TVshows Wes Hall–a leader in the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Kansas City, Missouri–teaching that the reason to pray for Israel is because it is God’s strategy for releasing “breakthrough” to cities and nations (that is, bringing God’s physical kingdom to earth), if#iHOP is part of NAR they sure are Kingdom NOW theology believers
http://www.spiritoferror.org/…/the-nars-obsession…/2915
Peter A Vandever [01/11/2016 10:26 AM]
What is your deal with “NAR?” You always are blasting it for something.
John Kissinger [01/11/2016 10:28 AM]
I was reading in a forum by former #IHOP members talking about Mike Bickle and International House of Prayer saying: “They are part of the Kingdom Now movement, which basically teaches that either 1) the Book of Revelation has already occurred and the Kingdom of God is currently being perfected by today’s believers or 2) the Book of Revelation is totally symbolic.” http://rr-bb.com/showthread.php?58924-Mike-Bickle-and-International-House-of-Prayer
Peter A Vandever [01/11/2016 10:30 AM]
Not at all what Mike believes. He is post-trib.
John Kissinger [01/11/2016 10:35 AM]
So are you saying that Dr. Michael Brown is wrong that Mike Bickle of IHOP and Lou Engle of TheCall are part of NAR ? What exactly is your claim? http://apprising.org/2014/01/14/dr-michael-brown-says-friends-mike-bickle-and-lou-engle-true-men-of-god/
Peter A Vandever [01/11/2016 10:41 AM]
Nowhere did Mike say anything about NAR as you call it. You are making a big deal out of nothing.
Peter A Vandever [01/11/2016 10:42 AM]
Brown is probably more Apostolic movement than Bickle is to be honest.
John Kissinger [01/11/2016 10:43 AM]
you may be right, but are former member of iHOPE wrong when they claim iHOPE moved toward kingdom-now theology? https://web.archive.org/web/20151217173233/http://www.pitch.com/FastPitch/archives/2015/03/12/former-ihop-member-explains-why-he-left-the-church
Peter A Vandever [01/11/2016 10:44 AM]
I notice you find all the anti articles. I was there from day one.
Peter A Vandever [01/11/2016 10:47 AM]
I do not think they understand Kingdom Now and what it is and isnt.
John Kissinger [01/11/2016 11:24 AM]
I am currently interested in the THEOLOGICAL SHIFT Assemblies of God, IHOP and others are making toward NAR. Hence the reasoning polling you as a direct witness. These other witnesses were also there from day 1 and seems like along after you left. Are you saying they are dead wrong on the eschatological shift of IHOP? This is also a direct collective quote from multiple similar sources about IHOP:
“IHOP officially holds to evangelical post tribulation and affirms historical premillennialism. They also hold to the teachings of the New Apostolic Reformation which is part of the Manifested Sons of God theology which came out of the Latter Rain Movement. This theology teaches that it is the Christian’s responsibility to take back society in order that Jesus Christ may return to set up His kingdom here on earth. This is also known as a 7 Mountain mandate or Kingdom now theology.”
http://www.empoweredbychrist.org/international-house-of-prayer.html
Is it your position that telling me all these testimonies from IHOP are wrong?
Peter A Vandever [01/11/2016 11:27 AM]
Why not go to their website and not on these anti-Pentecostal websiteS?
John Kissinger [01/11/2016 12:16 PM]
We already discussed the eschatology paper they published by IHOP – I recently listened to a series of recorded messages from a conference featuring several prominent teachers associated with the IHOP ministry. The conference discussed Israel, her current status in th world and her place in the prophetic end-time scenario. IHOP from the Kansas city International House of Prayer is one of a growing numbers of Christian associations who teach that the church will be the instrument God uses to bring forth the kingdom of God upon the earth. This teaching fall into the category called the “Kingdom Now” doctrine. – Posted here are testimonies of ex-members who are testifying of IHOP’s move toward kingdom-now theology
Ryan Miller [01/11/2016 1:11 PM]
I thought that was Mt . 28 doctrine-the Great Commission? Oh, I forgot, we are back in the 1950’s. Get them saved and leave them sit in a pew until the end of the world. 😉
Peter A Vandever [01/11/2016 1:12 PM]
http://www.ihopkc.org/about/affirmations-and-denials/
Ryan Miller [01/11/2016 1:13 PM]
Tack Mk. 16 on there too. Or are we cutting that put “since it is not in the earliest manuscripts?” If people change, culture changes. It can take JUST one person to change a workplace-positive or negative.
John Kissinger [01/11/2016 1:18 PM]
Peter A Vandever the statement you posted is from May 16, 1993 or 23 years ago. You yourself have said that IHOP eschatology has changed since then. The witnesses sited above agree in the proposed in the joint NAR / Kingdom-now shift. Why dont you agree with their testimonies ?
Peter A Vandever [01/11/2016 1:23 PM]
Read down.
John Kissinger [01/11/2016 1:24 PM]
read the whole thing – what more specifically? 1993 is irrelevant for what I am asking you about?
Peter A Vandever [01/11/2016 1:27 PM]
The Kingdom Now position is current.
John Kissinger [01/11/2016 1:28 PM]
If that is really true (which we have multiple eye witnesses saying it’s not), your comment that IHOP belongs to NAR is simply not true. NAR’s foundation, especially since announcing the new apostolic age in 2001, is the Kingdom-now-theology BTW would you give at least one source that the IHOP Kingdom Now position is current? Miller What’s your point?
Peter A Vandever [01/11/2016 1:49 PM]
They believe in the Apostolic, not Kingdom Now…. what is your deal with the Apostolic movement?
John Kissinger [01/13/2016 8:13 AM]
NAR is ALL about Kingdom-now – NO way around it! C Peter Wagner denies the rapture of the church. So do Mike Bickle and the IHOPchurch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEqAJpVy8Jw
Varnel Watson
Were the KANSAS 4 the last of the prophetic movement close to AG??? which BTW Resolution 16 fully halted Peter Vandever Terry Wiles I fail to recognize Bob Jones as a modern day prophet. The Vineyard shepherds were close but too much in deliverance and discernment to operate in the prophetic Rick Joyner lost his weight with the Bentley scandal and from there off the whole Florida revival thing was just preaching no miracles or prophecies Virtually no supernatural
What else is left for the church in America except to move in the natural and in the flesh anymore? Thank you #res16 http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/rick-joyners-response-to-lee-gradys-the-tragic-scandal/
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams I believe it was Peter Vandever who proposed this OP Bob Jones was then living in Statesville before that I believe or close by What brought all these Prophets to Kansas? Was it iHOP? We saw them going south toward NAR pretty soon afterwords http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/mike-bickle-of-ihop-just-endorsed-ted-cruz/
Varnel Watson
here is the resent on Kansas Joshua Peter Phillips and the prophets mentioned by Philip Williams though I would not call it eye witness as the author claims for various personal reasons
Varnel Watson
bringing this post back with the old/new Bob Jones who may have heard heard from God that the chiefs would go to the Super Bowl Is a Sign of the End Times and maybe of a great revival or something I have it from a good source Peter Vandever that this may not be exactly so Such prophecy about another great revival was given before he left the prophetic and many more such words from the Kansas 4 or were they 5 at one time – who can count them all? Now is this hoax coming to an end any time soon William DeArteaga http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/new-book-series-on-the-topeka-kansas-revival-by-dr-larry-martin/
Varnel Watson
that fresh look on Kansas is getting to be pretty pretty sour (ETH) – If you live in Kansas City, Missouri, and plan on attending a service, you better plan on being required to have your attendance documented. That’s because, According to a new report from the Western Journal, Churches in Kansas City, Missouri, that reopen for in-person services are going to be required to make a list of everyone who attends, this according to new city rules that were released by Mat Staver, who is the founder and chairman of Liberty Counsel. According to the city website, “In-person religious gatherings (including weddings and funerals) may resume, subject to the 10/10/10 rule (if held inside) or limited to 50 people outside, provided social distancing precautions are followed and event organizers maintain records of all attendees. https://endtimeheadlines.org/2020/05/kansas-city-requires-records-of-all-attendees-of-religious-gatherings/?fbclid=IwAR0zt8RXT8MIudFOuf9_9wz3MAWqdpB55ccVmHadxcQWbKho8D0_Rn1nkV0
Jevan Little
Not just churches, all businesses . In case there was an infection, they can track down other attendees to test them
Varnel Watson
actually Jevan Little this one is JUST for churches We dont see in the order where restaurants are required to take roll OR WalMart Robert Cox is gonna get them all pretty soon
Jevan Little
No it’s not. I read the original order. It was not just churches. It was not a registry. Most churches already have information on membership and write down visitors information
Varnel Watson
how so Jevan Little According to the city website, “In-person religious gatherings (including weddings and funerals) may resume, subject to the 10/10/10 rule (if held inside) or limited to 50 people outside, provided social distancing precautions are followed and event organizers maintain records of all attendees.
Are religious services, wedding, and funerals allowed?
Yes, after May 6, in-person religious gatherings (including weddings and funerals) may resume, subject to the 10/10/10 guidelines (if held inside) and limited to 50 people outside, provided social distancing precautions are followed. Attendees are required to provide their names or contact information at any religious gathering.
Are non-religious social events allowed?
Yes, starting May 6, indoor social events of 10 people or less and outdoor social events of 50 people or less are permitted, provided social distancing precautions are followed. Event organizers should consider maintaining a record of attendees to assist with notification efforts should COVID-19 exposure take place.
Jevan Little
Thank you. That quote supports what I said
Varnel Watson
How so Jevan Little I dont see it
Jevan Little
It says nothing about a registration. It affirms the purpose is in case there is an infection
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little it literally says
Attendees are required to provide their names or contact information at any religious gathering.
Jevan Little
To the organizers, not to the city. We already get contact information at most churches.
Varnel Watson
you do? we run thousands any given sunday NO way we can produce a list of ALL present in 1 service
Jevan Little
Troy Day the article says 50 or less.
We don’t run thousands. We have contact info of all members. We ask visitors to fill our visitor cards
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little I dont see how this is any true?
Jevan Little
Troy Day you don’t see how what is true?
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little that asking for visitor cards give you everyone attending We barely get cards 10-20% on all visitors
Jevan Little
Troy Day we usually get most filled out. That’s besides the point. We are already getting that kind of information
Varnel Watson
aint NO way – we get hundreds of visitors every service It cannot be done without offending someone If they return and our teamsters scope them is another story But a roll call for every attendee in a big church is a no go – cant be done Its a crazy call to shut churches down starting the large
Jevan Little
Troy Day 50 or less. It’s not just churches
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little seems like you go to a church of 20; we have ppl inside 50 in each auditorium at the time Then times that more in cars outside We’ve done miracles to keep the traffic going through the parking lot alone We have traffic people on high platforms built up to watch traffic and navigate people Not to mention kids and their needs We just about forgone cash offering because it is impossible to touch everyone Our 9 routers on the property campus blast the sermon the notes via app the offering collection and even visitors cards but are you listening when I tell you no one can take a full roll call Can WalMart do better ? Robert Cox
Robert Cox
Troy Day
I ain’t giving the government anything. One reason I revoked our 501c3 yrs ago. They started wanting to know how much offering we took in and other info. I said nope! Don’t think so! This was under Obama’s first term.
Jevan Little
Troy Day no it’s not a church of 20
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little is this relevant As I was telling Robert Cox It cant be done It shouldnt be done Courts should rule against it NExt they will ask what you preached on Sunday I often chose my subject to be NonYa
Varnel Watson
like in nonya business Robert Cox
Jevan Little
Troy Day what you preached Sunday has nothing to do with the spread of a virus by an infected person. It’s only a contact list for meetings under 50
Varnel Watson
Jevan Little uhhhm actually they said it does 🙂
Jevan Little
Troy Day who says that? Quote
Varnel Watson
tell me another one Jevan Little
“How can Governor Whitmer on the one hand prohibit medical surgeries and the growth of food through gardening yet refer to a procedure that intentionally destroys a developing human person as ‘life sustaining?’” the Michigan Catholic Conference responded Sunday https://www.lifenews.com/2020/04/21/michigan-gov-gretchen-whitmer-bans-gardening-during-lockdown-lets-abortion-clinics-kill-babies/?fbclid=IwAR09VhKZRfI2zDWwsPpy4iQ4KkOMbg-WfBK8sAA0dQfo02hGcKVTzVdvJlc