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Alan N Carla Smith | PentecostalTheology.com
IF you are PRE-Trib in belief and you are not caught away when the Anti-Christ is revealed (meaning either mid- or post-trib) will you turn away from and/or get mad at God?
Terry Wiles [11/17/2015 4:06 PM]
No. I will still be an immanent returnist!
Carl Murphy [11/17/2015 4:13 PM]
One thing is for certain, you aren’t a fan of dictionaries.
John Conger [11/17/2015 6:22 PM]
what??? who dares question pre-trib?? strong delusion? lol
James Armstrong [11/17/2015 6:38 PM]
I don’t care WHEN I’m raptured, I just care that I am.
Tom Steele [11/17/2015 8:58 PM]
While I think that it doesn’t make a lot of sense to think that the rapture would happen any time but pre-tribulation, it certainly wouldn’t effect my faith any. First let’s talk why I think pre-trib is the most logical in a nutshell, because the Bible tells it will be an event that comes unexpected. If it happens mid-trib or post-trib we can be expecting it because the tribulation is just seven years long. We would know we’re in the tribulation so we would be expecting to be raptured no more than seven years. Anyway, that’s also why I can’t see betraying Christ if I had to endure the tribulation. That single even would prove without a doubt that Christ is returning. Why on earth would anyone denounce Christ that close to the end? That would be like running a marathon and stopping two feet from the white ribbon at the end and saying, “Well, I had enough, I quit.” Obviously this is a big subject, just wanted to give a very brief reply to it. None of the three accepted rapture theories has anything to do with salvation, so it’s kinda an irrelevant question anyway, but always good to compel people to stay faithful to Yeshua no matter what.
Tommy Schaefer [11/17/2015 10:55 PM]
I think about that sometimes and I can honestly say no.
John Conger [11/18/2015 7:58 AM]
Actually scripture says that day will not overtake us as a thief, only the world. The problem IMHO is people try and build the tribulation around the rapture when really the tribulation is about Israel. When does the rapture happen happen?? It’s really easy actually……. The last trumpet. Find the last trumpet and you’ll find the rapture
Ricky Grimsley [11/18/2015 8:10 AM]
I think 2 thessalonians chapter 2 rules out pre trib. I dont see where imminence is taught in scripture.
Ricky Grimsley [11/18/2015 8:12 AM]
One of my favorite songs says this “whether im the last one alive or ascend before my time, better im the last one alive than a soul denied” Demon Hunter.
Ricky Grimsley [11/18/2015 8:35 AM]
2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJVS [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; What day is he talking about? The day of the lord or Christ as in verse 2. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 KJVS [1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, Even if you believe that the rapture and the 2nd coming are separated by a large amount of time, he is “beseeching” by both of them. So neither can happen until that day which is he day of the lord and the day of the lord doesnt happen until after a great falling away and the son of perdition is revealed (antichrist).
Ricky Grimsley [11/18/2015 8:46 AM]
http://youtu.be/imSHBDt1xKM
Timothy Carter [11/18/2015 1:35 PM]
Ricky do you truly believe that? What I mean is do you truly believe verse ” Let no man deceive you by any means? ”
Timothy Carter [11/18/2015 1:38 PM]
John 16:3
Parallel Verses New International Version But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.
New Living Translation When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.
English Standard Version When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth, for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.
Berean Study Bible However, when the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth. For He will not speak on His own, but He will speak what He hears, and He will declare to you what is to come.
Berean Literal Bible But when He the, Spirit of truth, shall come, He will guide you into all the truth. For He will not speak from Himself, but whatever He may hear, He will speak. And He will declare to you the things coming.
New American Standard Bible “But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.
King James Bible Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Ricky Grimsley [11/18/2015 1:40 PM]
I take it as an exhortation to be watchful. The closer we draw to the end the more deception there is. The more false doctrines there are. I have surely been deceived by man and by myself but I try to be on guard.
Ricky Grimsley [11/18/2015 1:42 PM]
Yes the spirit guides us but none of has fully experienced “all truth”. 1 Corinthians 13:12 KJVS [12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
John B. Gaither [11/20/2015 9:09 AM]
I teach Pre-Trib in my Pentecostal Church. The people have a handle around that, and it’s understood by most Evangelicals. But I warn my people to be ready whenever Jesus is Ready. It does not matter what the Wall Chart, or Reference pages in the back of your Bible say. We need to live as if this were the day. Either by Rapture or Individual Departure.
Ricky Grimsley [11/20/2015 9:22 AM]
So John B. Gaither when you teach….what do you say about 2 thessalonians chapter 2. How does that not say that we will see the antichrist before the rapture.
Jeremy Lile [11/20/2015 9:35 AM]
I would not turn my back on God because man in all his wisdom still lacks so much when it comes to God and his plan for the world. Even the greatest theologians are baffled by the mysteries of God. Whatever happens, God will take care of us and protect us.
John B. Gaither [11/20/2015 9:49 AM]
Ricky, I don’t doubt that if we truly are in the last days, that the Anti-Christ is now present in the World today. Not revealed yet. I compare to my folks how during the 2008 election Obama was practically worshipped in Europe that Summer, then the gathering at Grant Park and at the Inauguration. I told them he was not the AC, but the World would go crazier than that. So nothing is wrong with seeing the AC, but we will not know for sure. It’s the peace accord that he makes that starts the 7 years, then the breaking of it at 3.5 years. He can be revealed, and we in our Wisdom would not realize it. Those who in the old days said it was someone like Kissinger, can say that until he dies, since he is still kicking. At 92, he is really unlikely. People have always guessed. I remember the 80’s and Pope John Paul, and all the others. My Brothers in Christ, were not right in their guesses. We won’t know fully, until after the Rapture, and at that time he makes a pact with Satan. Satan does not when the Rapture is. He does know what 7 years means. In his anger will enter into the AC. Satan’s time will be short, is short. Can revealed mean that he is on the World Stage, but not full of the Spirit of the AntiChrist? I think yes.
Terry Wiles [11/20/2015 9:58 AM]
Ricky Grimsley. I do appreciate this discussion but let me respectfully give a different view. 2 Thess. is a continuation of 1 Thess. If you look at 1 Thess. 5 verse 9 there is an argument given that we are not destined for “wrath” but to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ. They were suffering affliction that some were saying was the day of the Lord’s wrath. Paul tells them to encourage one another and build one another up. (v 11)
In 2 Thess. Paul continues the them by telling them there is a day coming when God will bring vengeance up those who afflict them and upon those who do not obey the Lord. (2:5-10)
In chapter 2 verses 1 and two there is a argument that they are not in the tribulation, that the day of the Lord has not come, that they have not missed the rapture. Here, “the day of the Lord” refers to God pouring out His wrath upon the world of sin. It will come upon all who refused to love the truth and be saved.
But the Thess believers embraced the truth and will be saved (from the wrath) and obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thess. 2:13-17)
That is the way I understand it. I try to teach people to be ready to go as if it were today but be ready to serve God as it would be a lifetime away.
All for souls.
John Conger [11/20/2015 10:01 AM]
Can anyone who believe in pretrib explain how the ‘last trumpet’ is at the beginning of the tribulation even though there are at least 7 more that happen later?
Terry Wiles [11/20/2015 10:06 AM]
The last trumpet sounds when Christ returns with His saints to plant his feet on the Mount of Olives and set up His earthly reign. This will happen after God pours out His wrath on a world that has rejected Him. Prior to that will be other trumpets including one that gathers His sons and daughters to himself.
John Conger [11/20/2015 10:08 AM]
Ok, but the scripture plainly says we will be caught up ‘at the last trumpet ‘.
John Conger [11/20/2015 10:13 AM]
Thank you but I’ve heard all the teachings. Used to believe it. But how is it the “last” trumpet when there’s not one before that and there are many afterwards
Varnel Watson
I agree Ricky Grimsley I am very pre-Trib, strongly Arminian, Dake reader and Holy Ghost baptized with speaking in tongues Brody Pope David
Terry Wiles
No to the question. Why? Because I’m an immanent returnist.
My hope is in Jesus Christ and His righteousness.
Ricky Grimsley
Almost everyone i know is pre-trib because “momma said so”. What scripture teaches and imminent return? 1 Thessalonians 5:4 KJVS
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Varnel Watson
“But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only” (Matthew 24:36).
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing” (Matthew 24:42-46 KJV).
“Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh” (Matthew 25:13).
“And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power” (Acts 1:7).
Ricky Grimsley
Again though where is the rapture in matthew 24? If you wanna believe pretrib doesnt the rapture have to be matthew 24:1?lol
Varnel Watson
Dont mix the terms. Your question asked “What scripture teaches and imminent return? “
Ricky Grimsley
Im not the one mixing terms. My point is the scripture you quoted disproves your point. How can the rapture be imminent if it is a sequence of events that we will see but havent yet?
Varnel Watson
Your question asked “What scripture teaches and imminent return?” The scriptures I quoted teach imminent return/ Jesus dont know the times – – – https://www.amazon.com/Imminent-Rapture-Dr-Arthur-Kebo-ebook/dp/B009B3UZ8O
Ricky Grimsley
Jesus didnt know on earth because he had limited is attributes. He certainly knows now unless the date is uncertain and is determined by conditions set by the Father. I think its possible that the date isnt set and God is waiting for conditions to met in his mercy.
David Lewayne Porter
Ricky,
So Jesus (according to your words above) had limited attributes while on earth but the Father didn’t.
The Father sets the limits….
Now that Father (could very well) know all things and everyone from the very beginning – before time even began, before creation even started.
He keeping the time of the rapture to Himself shows that He has the ability to do and know all and simply keep us in the dark to keep us on our Spiritual toes.
By the way,
You twisted the text (minced words)
You said that you think it is possible that the date isn’t set – Jesus did not say God will know the day, He said only God (KNOWS) day and hour.
Also the number of those to fulfill your (conditions) is already KNOWN
Revelation of John 6:11
And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Ricky Grimsley
God has certainly explained to us a sequence of events in the Book of Revelation and other passages. He certainly knows how he plans to handle it. However, the bible has many accounts where he passed judgments and even set days and then reprieve was given because of repentance. If the day is set then Jesus most certainly knows now. Again, if you go back to the beginning (before creation) and say God knows everything that will happen and chooses to create it that way….its basically Calvinism.
David Lewayne Porter
Seems like you are so stuck on “how ever the Bible has many accounts where … then was given a reprieve”
Seems like those accounts keep you trapped in an isolated theological bubble.
Joel covers that in 3 short chapters. The reason God moves in anger to distory is for the intended purpose and previous thought of moving man to a place of repentance so He can bless them as first intended.
Good reading. You may want to try it some time.
Varnel Watson
Church fathers were clearly looking for an imminent return of the Lord Jesus (marked with ********).
“All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see ********at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins” (Pseudo-Ephraem (374-627 AD).
The First Epistle of Clement, 23 (written around 96 A.D. by Clement, a prominent leader of the church at Rome who knew some of the apostles personally and probably is the Clement referred to in Phil. 4:3): “Of a truth, soon and ********suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture also bears witness, saying, ‘speedily will He come, and will not tarry.'”
As early as 70 – 180 AD, The Didache, chapter 16, section 1, says, “‘Be vigilant over your life; let your lamps not be extinguished, or your loins ungirded, but be prepared, for you ********know not the hour in which our Lord will come.”
“But what a spectacle ********sudden is that fast-approaching advent of our Lord, now owned by all, now highly exalted, now a triumphant One!” (Tertullian 155 – 245 AD).
John Calvin, the reformer at Geneva during the 1500s and founder of the Presbyterian Church, made the following statements in some of his commentaries on books of the Bible: “Be prepared to expect Him ********every day, or rather every moment.” “As He has promised that He will return to us, we ought to ********hold ourselves prepared, at every moment to receive Him.” “Today we must be alert to grasp ********the imminent return of Christ.”
Commenting on 1 Thessalonians 4, the “Rapture passage,” Calvin said that Paul “means by this to arouse the Thessalonians to wait for it, nay more, to hold all believers in suspense, that they ********may not promise themselves some particular time . . . that believers might be prepared at all times.”
The Westminster Confession, written by the Puritans of England during the 1600s, declared that men should “shake off all carnal security ( Peter Christian ) and be ********always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come.”
“I say, somewhat more because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ’s ‘appearing in the air’ (1 Thess 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many ‘mansions in the father’s house’ (John 14:2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time.” (Morgan Edwards 1742-44).
Ricky Grimsley
But again these people all thought the Antichrist was on the earth and time of tribulation was already here and so the return of Christ would be imminent. Now we know that isnt the case.
David Lewayne Porter
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Ricky Grimsley
David Lewayne Porter same connotation as in the last days i will pour out my spirit?
Ricky Grimsley
How long before revelation was 1john written? Did paul reveal more in 2 Thessalonians than John knew in 1 John? Even Peter said Paul wrote some stuff that was hard to understand? Also, didnt the early church believe that Jesus would come back before John died because of…..Matthew 16:28 KJVS
[28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
David Lewayne Porter
You deal in a lot of ?s Ricky.
Christians are to be settled and at peace in their beliefs.
All that matters to me is that
1) it is scripture
2) scriptures compliment each other and when studied and rightly divided never contradict.
I am at peace with it.
I hope you find (His) answers and His peace.
Blessings
Varnel Watson
“Take ye heed, watch and pray; for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of Man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the Master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly He find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch” (Mark 13:33-37).
“Knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light” (Rom 13:11-12).
“And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly” (Rom 16:20).
“So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Cor 1:7).
“For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ” (Phil 3:20).
“Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand” (Phil 4:5).
“And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come” (1 Thess 1:10).
“Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober” (1 Thess 5:6).
“That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Tim 6:14).
“Looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus” (Titus 2:13).
“So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation” (Heb 9:28).
“Let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the Day approaching” (Heb 10:24-25).
“For yet a little while, and He that shall come will come, and will not tarry” (Heb 10:37).
“Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door” (James 5:7-9).
“Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ” (1 Peter 1:13).
“But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer” (1 Peter 4:7).
“Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life” (Jude 1:21).
“Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown” (Rev 3:11).
“Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book” (Rev 22:7).
“He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus” (Rev 22:20).
Ricky Grimsley
None of these prove your point. Matthew 24, Luke 21, Mark 13, Rev 6. Tell the story.
Varnel Watson
20+ New Testament sctipres, half a dozen churrh fathers, and a number of rather references and the only responce you have is: “No. Its not like that” 🙂 It is hard for you to kick against the goads? Ricky Grimsley
Ricky Grimsley
Lol
Varnel Watson
Perhaps you are left to the post-trib-rapture ministries intl. inc. ltd.
Ricky Grimsley
The early church fathers thought they were already in the tribulation so their view was skewed
Ricky Grimsley
The bible is clear. 2thessalonians 2 destroys pretrib. If you would watch the video in the main post chris white will explain it to you.
Varnel Watson
This is a completely private and wrong interpretation of 2 thessalonians 2 twisting the scripture and mixing doctrines. Discussed so many times before that this private interpretation from the video has absolutely no Bible leg to stand on
Ricky Grimsley
2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJVS
[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Ricky Grimsley
“That day” of verse three is describe in verses 1 and 2.
Terry Wiles
Don’t ignore the first letter which proceeds the second.
Varnel Watson
There you go! Finally some sound Biblical reasoning
Ricky Grimsley
I dont. Paul explains what the “day of the lord” is that it begins with the rapture and also tells them 1 Thessalonians 5:4 KJVS
[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ricky Grimsley
Im not post-trib either. I am pre-wrath.
Charles Page
that could be a partial preterist view, Ricky Grimsley
Varnel Watson
You and Charles Page who “asserts that the day of the Lord has already come” in 70 AD (2 Thessalonians 2:2)
Ricky Grimsley
Charles page is wrong about almost everything. We arent on the same planet.
Charles Page
I can see heaven from my planet!!
Ricky Grimsley
Are you saying that Paul is telling them that the “day is at hand” in verse 2? The whole purpose of the Thessalonians 2 is to tell them that it the day is not at hand.
Charles Page
it came about a few years later from the time Paul wrote.
Varnel Watson
If I wasnt all for pre-trib I’d be for all you can eat prime-rib. While Charles Page is for wine-n-dine from 5 to 9 Alan N Carla Smith 🙂
Ricky Grimsley
I don’t understand?
Ricky Grimsley
Have you ever watched the video Troy Day?
Varnel Watson
2 Thes. 2 speaks about the Day of the Lord – obviously mixed matched theology Day of the Lord refers to the 2nd advent not to the rapture
The term —wrath of God— is first used in Psalm 78:31 about the 40 years in the Wilderness of Sinai
Psalm 78:31 The wrath of God came upon them, and slew the fattest of them, and smote down the chosen men of Israel.
Are you saying your interpretation places the Day of the Lord around Israel’s journey in the Wilderness of Sinai ???
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley Remember when we watched it and discussed 2 Thess. 2 when you first posted the video? I have long given up on persuading folks to be ready for the pre-trib Rapture. I figured God wants to have church at the start of the Tribulation, in the mid, pass His wrath and at the end. They will all do a great job preaching during the times of the anti-Christ and we all will pray for them in heaven while enjoying the Marriage supper with the Lamb!
Ricky Grimsley
I hope you are right. I just dont see where you get it. There is no passage of scripture that puts a rapture at the beginning of any sequence of events but there are several that put a gathering at or near the end.
Varnel Watson
There are plenty of passages clearly showing pre-Trib rapture for the ones who wants to see them. God needs people for all times. He even needs the antiChrist to do him some work during the Tribulation so why not include some churches too? God even needs Trump for some reason in the last day 🙂
Charles Page
The only needs God has is the obedience of the regenerate
Varnel Watson
Speaking in tongues you are again on the internets
Charles Page
There will be more
Don’t you believe in tongues?
David Lewayne Porter
Not as a (side show) Charles.
1 Corinthians 14:4
He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1 Corinthians 14:5-6
I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1 Corinthians 14:11-12
Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
1 Corinthians 14:14
For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1 Corinthians 14:19
Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1 Corinthians 14:39
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
(Your) tongues is the least of the gifts in that which you are trying to accomplish.
Try doing it appropriately.
Charles Page
Thanks for the admonition
I’ll try to do it appropriately
Charles Page
Isn’t it best to start with the least of the gifts and to accomplish what God wants
David Lewayne Porter
So you like to stay in the least?
Is that what you are saying?
Is that why you stopped posted your re-recorded prophecies?
Alan N Carla Smith
Was there no live @ 5 today???? Or did I miss it?
Charles Page
None
Varnel Watson
Live @ 5 on the very first day of the Tribulation Ricky Grimsley
Charles Page
Live at Five today by popular demand
Ricky Grimsley
Troy Day the question is…..if the tribulation started today…..would you know?
Varnel Watson
Yes of course. Charles Page would let us know live @ 5 Alan N Carla Smith
Alan N Carla Smith
Charles could you expound on whether Pre-, Mid-, Post- Trib is the correct event?? I think Troy, Ricky and Tom may find your ‘talk’ informative.
Varnel Watson
and could you please schedule the Rapture during live @ 5 so we can be all ready Ricky Grimsley especially 🙂
Ricky Grimsley
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Ricky Grimsley
Troy Day im so ready. I keep watch and pray. I kniw i could be wrong and i look at current event and politics.
Ricky Grimsley
I dont believe darby invented the rapture. The catching away of believers is certainly a biblical truth. However, the secret rapture and pretrib is a different story.
Varnel Watson
PRE-TRIB RAPTURE is shown even in ANCIENT JEWISH WEDDING rituals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6by4TGXfHHc
Ricky Grimsley
Nope
Ricky Grimsley
Stick with the bible. Look at all the parables in which we are the wedding party?
Varnel Watson
Ricky Grimsley Dont worry yourself brother Tribulation has NOT Actually Begun just yet http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/has-the-tribulation-actually-begun-part-1/
Alan N Carla Smith
Ricky so is this chart an accurate representation of Pre-Wrath? Please understand I’m NOT trying to debate…
Ricky Grimsley
Thats pretty accurate except that some would say that the Fifth seal is the rapture.
Alan N Carla Smith
Hmmm… maybe a 3/4 event?
Ricky Grimsley
Yeah.
Varnel Watson
THE ANCIENT CHURCH FATHERS BELIEVED IN PRE-TRIB RAPTURE http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-ancient-church-fathers-believed-in-pre-trib-rapture/
Ricky Grimsley
Quoted from the article….
Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters. That is totally the pre-wrath position. We totally believe the church is gone before the real bad stuff happens.
Varnel Watson
You are learning well … it seems
Ricky Grimsley
What have i learned? We still dont believe the same thing. The church fathers are not saying what you think they are b
Varnel Watson
You are learning
Ricky Grimsley
Look how far into Matthew 24 the “rapture” verses are.
Varnel Watson
Has to be in order to differentiate from the Jews
Ricky Grimsley
The differentiation comes in luke not in matthew. Mark 13 explains that this was privately with just Peter andrew james and John. There is no need for jews verse and believer verses. Thats why luke 21 is different as well because it partially records 70 Ad
Varnel Watson
You refereed to Mt. Charles Page was there in 70 AD
Ricky Grimsley
Lol
Charles Page
I have copies of all the major prophecies and events leading up to AD 70
It is as if I were there!
Varnel Watson
Did Jesus ever refer to the rapture? When this question is asked, two passages usually come to mind: Matt 24:40-41 and John 14:1-4. The purpose of this paper is to show that although Christ did not refer to the rapture in Matt 24:40-41, He did refer to the rapture in John 14:1-4. http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/jesus-and-the-rapture
Terry Wiles
If you believe the written word is inspired by Him then you know He did.
Varnel Watson
IF you are PRE-Trib in belief and you are not caught away when the Anti-Christ is revealed (meaning either mid- or post-trib) will you turn away from and/or get mad at God?
Ricky Grimsley
I think it will be a big danger for many.
Keith Day
I am pre-trib. but if it turns out that I am wrong and the Lord comes later I will just be glad when He dose come and pray that I am ready regardless of when He comes
Nathan Ridgeway
I’m not a pre … or a post … I’m a believer! Jesus is coming when the Father is ready. And I’ll be waiting with oil in my lamp — trimmed and burning! Glory to God for such assurance!