Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
| PentecostalTheology.com
I’m reading a passage from Arethas (Fragm. in Epist. II ad Thess, 661.15): “SUNUPAKOUETAI TAUTA TOIS PROKEIMENOIS· MHDEIS hUMAS EXAPA THSHi hOTI ENESTHKEN hH hHMERA PRIN TAUTA GENHTAI TOTE THN APISTIAN TWN ANQRWPWN hO DIABOLOS EISHGEN”
I wanted to compare it with 2Thes 2,2: “hWS hOTI ENESTHKEN hH hHMERA TOU CRISTOU”
Is ENESTHKEN in both cases a proleptic Perfect ? That means the events are still future.
My other question is the exact meaning of “SUNUPAKOUETAI TAUTA TOIS PROKEIMENOIS” – I can’t handle the semantics and the syntax.
Isn’t this simply, in the case of 2 Thess 2:2 a proposition that is being set forth by others (that “the day of Christ is here now”) and that Paul disputes? And in the case of the Arethas, it’s a direct citation of the passage from 2 Thess. The enclosing hOTI should make it clear that this is a citation, I think.
I think this is simply saying, “This (TAUTA) is consistent with/in accordance with/implicit in (SUNUPAKOUETAI) what has been set forth previously (TOIS PROKEIMENOIS — PROKEIMAI serving as the perfect passive for PROTIQHMI).
I would tend to the view that in Re 1.3 that is precisely what is intended.
Μακάριος ὁ ἀναγινώσκων καὶ οἱ ἀκούοντες τοὺς λόγους τῆς προφητείας καὶ τηροῦντες τὰ ἐν αὐτῇ γεγραμμένα, ὁ γὰρ καιρὸς ἐγγύς.
MAKARIOS hO ANAGINWSKW KAI hOI AKOUONTES TOUS LOGOUS THS PROFHTEIAS KAI THROUNTES TA EN AUTHi GEGRAMMENA, hO GAR KAIROS EGGUS.
The departure in 2Thes is the the Greek noun, apostasia It is used only twice in the New Testament in 2 THESSALONIANS 2:3 and in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia lit. to depart from] Moses.”
The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, andHebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from inquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 andLuke 4:13).
This insight about the use and meaning of the word was certainly compelling, but the argument most convicting comes the first seven English translations of the Bible rendered the noun, apostasia, as either “departure” or “departing.” They were as follows:
1. The Wycliffe Bible (1384)
2. The Tyndale Bible (1526)
3. The Coverdale Bible (1535)
4. The Cranmer Bible (1539)
5. The Great Bible (1540)
6. The Beeches Bible (1576)
7. The Geneva Bible (1608)
The Bible used by the Western world from 400 AD to the 1500s — Jerome’s Latin translation known as “The Vulgate” — rendered apostasia with the Latin word, discessio, which means “departure.”
The first translation of the word to mean apostasy in an English Bible did not occur until 1611 when the King James Version was issued. So, why did the King James translators introduce a completely new rendering of the word as “falling away”? The best guess is that they were taking a stab at the false teachings of Catholicism.
Also quite important for us is the fact that Paul used a definite article with the word apostasia. Since the Greek language does not need an article to make the noun definite, it becomes clear that with the usage of the article, reference is being made to something in particular. In 2 Thessalonians 2:3 the word apostasia is prefaced by the definite article which means that Paul is pointing to
a particular type of departure clearly known to the Thessalonian church.
In light of this grammatical point, it is observed that the use of the definite article would support the notion that Paul spoke of a clear, discernable notion. And that notion he had already identified in verse 1 when he stated that he was writing about “our gathering together to Him [Jesus].
This interpretation also corresponds to the point that Paul makes in verses 6 and 7 where he states that the man of lawlessness will not come until what “restrains” him “is taken out of the way.”
Anonymous
Ricky Grimsley Kyle Williams will show us the restrainer now
καὶ νῦν τὸ κατέχον οἴδατε, εἰς τὸ ἀποκαλυφθῆναι αὐτὸν ἐν τῷ ἑαυτοῦ καιρῷ. τὸ γὰρ μυστήριον ἤδη ἐνεργεῖται τῆς ἀνομίας, μόνον ὁ κατέχων ἄρτι ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται.
1[τὸ γὰρ μυστήριον] 3[ἤδη ἐνεργεῖται] 2[τῆς ἀνομίας—μόνον ὁ κατέχων—] 4[ἄρτι] 5[ἕως ἐκ μέσου γένηται].
καὶ [even] νῦν [now] τὸ κατέχον [the neuter restrainer ] οἴδατε [you know] εἰς τὸ [that] ἀποκαλυφθῆναι [to be revealed] αὐτὸν [he] ἐν [in] τῷ [the] ἑαυτοῦ [his own] καιρῷ [time] τὸ [the] γὰρ [for] μυστήριον [mystery] ἤδη [already] ἐνεργεῖται [is working] τῆς ἀνομίας [of iniquity ] μόνον [except] ὁ κατέχων [the masculine restrainer] ἄρτι [now] ἕως [until] ἐκ μέσου [from the midst] γένηται [he becomes]
“Even now you know (recognize) the restraining effort, that he should be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of iniquity—except the restrainer—is already working now until he becomes (arises) from the midst.”
Anonymous
who does covenant theology say that the restrainer is Kyle Williams
BTW many baptists are also reforme without denying the milenium OR embrasing the post-mil heresy
Anonymous
Troy Day depends on if they’re partial preterist, idealist or historicist. As a partial preterist, I think the restrainer in the first century was the Roman Government
Anonymous
Kyle Williams so you depend on YOUR theology NOT on the BIBLE – enough said about beeing deep into hyper calvinist forum herecies. NEXT you will say the Millenium is NOT literal and we are living in it right now… #noughSaid
Anonymous
Troy Day that’s exactly what I believe.
Anonymous
Kyle Williams what!… So maybe you think Biden is a candidate for the antichrist? 
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence no. I’m a partial preterist.
Anonymous
There is only one power that has enough power and influence to qualify as “the restrainer“ and that is the Holy Spirit. Case closed! 
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence
John 16:8-11 (NKJV) 8 “And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 “of sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 “of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; 11 “of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.
Where does the Holy Spirit restrain? Can you show in me in the scripture?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs it will be hard – I think the CHURCH restrains currently Kyle Williams expressed from ref.theol. that the EMPIRE restrained John Mushenhouse I would remind Kyle that during the Byzantine period the EMPIRE was seen AS the Church per Augustinian and later catholic theology – so he should agree the church is the restrainer per the theology of the early reformers Luther, Zwingli, Hus – perhaps NOT Calvin who was a-mil alike Augustine Ricky Grimsley thinks it is St Michael the Mormon
Anonymous
Troy Day Michael restrained satan from getting Moses body.
Jude 1:9-9 (KJV) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.
There is a good biblical example of one restraining.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs SO? only Mormons believe Michael is THE restrainer AND Ricky Grimsley Neil Steven Lawrence Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated “apostasy,” is a reference to the rapture – The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2
Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, “that you
are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia)Moses.” The
word is a Greek compound of apo “ from” and istemi “stand.” Thus, it has the core
meaning of “away from” or “departure.” The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines
apostasia first as “defection, revolt;” then secondly as “departure, disappearance
Anonymous
This articles title is misleading. It doesn’t disprove Michael being the restrainer.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs guess you didnt watch the video either?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ0fyJrUp5c
Anonymous
Troy Day I will watch just for you.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs you do exactly that
Anonymous
A great forsaking in the midst of the land.
If Paul was referring the rapture of the church happening first in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 instead of using the word ἀποστασία, (which is only used in one other place referring to a abandoning a system of faith or religious belief in Acts 21:21), a much better word he should of used to reference the departure of the church would of been
Philippians 1:23-23 (NKJV) For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, [which is] far better.
ἀναλύω -to depart, break up, to depart from life, to return. Paul uses that word here for departing to be with Christ.
Here it is used in reference to Jesus returning and rapturing the church.
Luke 12:36 (NKJV) “and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately.
If Paul would have used the Greek word ἀναλύω, then even I would have to give in and accept the notion of the man of sin being revealed and the rapture of the church must come first. But that isn’t what the scripture is referring to at all.
Clearly apostasia is referring to some kind of separation from a religious system. From various other NT text were warned about followers of Jesus Christ leaving the faith. So most already assume that is what Paul is talking about. More than likely, that is the case. But I’m going to make another possible case.
There is a back and forth discussion of when exactly in the 70th week timeline will the man of sin aka anti-Christ, aka false messiah will be revealed. Some say once he makes a covenant with many for 1 week is when he will be revealed. Some say at the abomination of desolation is when he will be revealed. I tend to lean towards the latter, at the abomination of desolation is when he will be revealed to the world. And at that same time, that is when he will defile the temple. And when he defiles the temple, that is when he turns upon the Jewish people who was believing that he was the messiah. At that moment when that event occurs, the Jewish people will realize that he isn’t the messiah.
Romans 11:25-25 (KJV) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Wait what is the fullness of the gentiles? Some try and also make this the rapture of the church. But that doesn’t work either. Here is a passage that shows what the fullness of the gentiles looks like and at the same time referencing the abomination of desolation.
Luke 21:20-24 (KJV) 20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
It will indeed be at this moment that the blindness is lifted off of the Jewish people. And they will come to full knowledge and faith of the true Jewish messiah our Lord Jesus Christ.
What religious system was the Jewish people under? Judaism. There will be a great departure or falling away in the correct term apostasia from Judaism.
An apostasia of the law of Moses to the Law of Christ.
But we still have a problem. Someone is holding back the anti-Christ. And someone is also putting blindness upon the Jewish people. Ultimately we know that it is God who does this. And we do not exactly know in full detail on how God commands all the host of heaven. So could the ark angel Michael be preventing the AC? It’s possible. Could God be using angels to put blindness on the Jewish people? Maybe. We can’t say for sure. However what we can say is that apostasia is in no way shape or form referring to the rapture of the church except for the simple fact that the rapture of the church cannot occur until the apostasia and the revealing of the man of sin comes first.
Oh wait there is more.
Isaiah 6:8-13 (NKJV) 8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying: “Whom shall I send, And who will go for Us?” Then I said, “Here [am] I! Send me.” 9 And He said, “Go, and tell this people: ‘Keep on hearing, but do not understand; Keep on seeing, but do not perceive.’ 10 “Make the heart of this people dull, And their ears heavy, And shut their eyes; Lest they see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And return and be healed.” 11 Then I said, “Lord, how long?” And He answered: “Until the cities are laid waste and without inhabitant, The houses are without a man, The land is utterly desolate, 12 The LORD has removed men far away, And the forsaken places [are] many in the midst of the land. 13 But yet a tenth [will be] in it, And will return and be for consuming, As a terebinth tree or as an oak, Whose stump [remains] when it is cut down. So the holy seed [shall be] its stump.”
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs what are you talking about – did you see the Greek of this verse ?
Anonymous
Troy Day Philippians 1:23-23 (KJV) For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
Anonymous
Troy Day
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs you are putting the cart before the horse. LetS talk 2:2 I am not certain you have qualifications to talk about ἀποστασία BUT if you insist we have 3 separate active topics JUST on that – what other word should Paul use? Why ? And where else is he using that word in such sense?
Anonymous
Troy Day actually by saying that the apostasia (church departure) must come before the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto him (which is called the day of Christ) is putting the cart before the horse.
It’s like putting your car in drive before you start the car.
So it doesn’t even matter what the correct meaning of the word apostasia is because it has to happen first. Before the church is called up.
The church can’t be called up before the church is called up.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs what do you mean BY apostasia?
Anonymous
Troy Day falling away, departure, rebellion, forsaking.
Anonymous
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ0fyJrUp5c
Anonymous
Previous message: Nine Choirs of Angels Next message: Nine Choirs of Angels As long as we’re discussing angels, here are a list of references to angels by name.Archangel Michael_________________Daniel 10:13: ….but the prince of the kingdom of Persia stood in my way for twenty-one days, until finally Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me.Daniel 10:21: ….but I shall tell you what is written in the truthful book. No one supports me against all these except Michael, your prince, standing as a reinforcement and a bulwark for me.Daniel 12:1 At that time there shall arise Michael, the great prince, guardian of your people;Jude 1:9: Yet the Archangel Michael, when he argued with the devil in a dispute over the body of Moses, did not venture to pronounce a reviling judgment upon him but said, “May the Lord rebuke you!”Revelation 12:7: Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels battled against the dragon.Archangel Gabriel_________________Daniel 8:16: ….and on the Ulai I heard a human voice that cried out, “Gabriel, explain the vision to this man.”Daniel 9:21: I was still occupied with this prayer, when Gabriel, the one whom I had seen before in vision, came to me in rapid flight at the time of the evening sacrifice.Luke 1:19: And the angel said to him in reply, “I am Gabriel, who stand before God. I was sent to speak to you and to announce to you this good news.”Luke 1:26: In the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent from God to a town of Galilee called Nazareth, to a virgin betrothed to a man named Joseph, of the house of David, and the virgin’s name was Mary.Raphael (deuterocanonicals)________Tobit 12:15 (among numerous passages in Tobit): I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who enter and serve before the Glory of the Lord.Uriel (APOCRYPHA)_____2 Esdras 4:1: Then the angel that had been sent to me, whose name was Uriel, answered and said to me, “Your understanding has utterly failed regarding this world, and do you think you can comprehend the way of the Most High?”2 Esdras 5:20: So I fasted seven days, mourning and weeping, as the angel Uriel had commanded me.2 Esdras 10:28: Where is the angel Uriel, who came to me at first? For it was he who brought me into this overpowering bewilderment; my end has become corruption, and my prayer a reproach.Cindy Smith Spawn of a Jewish CarpenterGO AGAINST THE FLOW! __ _///_ // A Real Live Catholic in Georgiacms at dragon.com >IXOYE=(‘> <`)= _<< “Delay not your conversion cms at romancatholic.org// /// to the LORD, Put it not off cms at 5sc.net from day to day” Ecclus/Sira 5:8 https://probible.net/angels-by-name/
Anonymous
It must be deity, to have the power to do so…HOLY SPIRIT…no doubt..
Anonymous
Skip Pauley or the church?
Anonymous
Troy Day …well. the church gets it’s power and authority through the workings of the Holy Spirit. I’ll stick with the HS…Amen…
Anonymous
II Thes. 2 speaks of the middle of the future 7 year Tribulation where the Holy Spirit ceases His restraint of evil, Satan is cast down, knowing his time is short (Rev. 12), indwells the world ruler as AntiChrist, enters the rebuilt Temple and declares himself to be God: THE abomination of all abominations.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess this is ALL correct but we are looking for WHO is the restrainer in this OP – most hyper calv. reformers Kyle Williams claim the restrainer of the antiChrist is the antiChrist who restrain himself which is simply scyzoprenic AS hyper calvinist forums like to call it