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Settling the Pre, Mid and Post Tribulation Controversy
Diana Kay Miller Sheek
What do you believe?
Varnel Watson
it is settled for me and Perry settled it Link Hudson
Link Hudson
If that is a pre-tribbers best attempt at settling the issue, it illustrates how poor the case is for pre-trib. You’ll notice he just throws up a couple of silly straw man arguments. Notice he rightly calls the rapture ‘the gathering.’
He even quotes this passage, setting it at the end of the tribulation.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
But notice he omits this verse, emphasis in caps mine. Notice the gathering takes place here after the tribulation.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Perry Stone presents some rather weak strawman post-trib arguments.
– Tribulation is needed to purge Christians.
– Americans have to suffer, too.
He calls these ‘rational arguments.’
He does not deal with real post-trib arguments.
— The gathering occuring at the end of the tribulation in Matthew 24.
— No pretrib rapture mentioned in the book of Revelation.
— No reason to think the saints in Revelation are not the same type of saints we read about in the rest of the New Testament.
— Paul calls the second coming the parousia, and there is no reason to think there is more than one second coming.
— The dead are made alive at Jesus coming. The church is rapture right after the resurrection.
— The man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord’s coming.
— The lack of pre-trib teaching in scripture, while a straightforward reading leads to the conclusion of one second-coming.
— The lack of historical support for pre-trib.
— The real reasons to believe in pre-trib is because you were taught it, or you want to believe it because you don’t want to go through the tribulation.
Diana Kay Miller Sheek
All I can say is Good said he would not suffer his children to wrath. No where does it say the Rapture takes place during or after the tribulation. During the tribulation, Satan will poor out his wrath upon the Jews when they realize he is not the true Messiah. Then God poors out his wrath upon the rest of the world and then destroys Satan. So where does the church fall in this? The two prophets do not preach salvation. And if anyone does want to go through the tribulation they are crazy. When the Rapture takes place we are going to meet Him in the air. That is not His glorious appearing. The Second Coming is when He puts His foot on land and sea, has war with Satan. We come back with Him at this time. How can we do that if we are hear. Bible says He will come with 10,000’s of His saints, that’s us. I guess we will wait and see.
Varnel Watson
All I can say is Good said he would not suffer his children to wrath. – on this right here I can shout and dance the victory And it also defines the ones going through the Tribulation as not His true children
Link Hudson
Troy Day it calls them saints. Lots of good stuff written about them in Revelation. Maybe you should do a study of it.
Gary Micheal Epping
The saints are protected in the Great Tribulation by God from his wrath.
Varnel Watson
yes protecting them by taking them out of this world
Link Hudson
Troy Day do you have any scriptural justification for more than one parousia/coming of Christ event or for defining the parousia as a 7 year event?? Paul taught the rapture occurs right after the resurrection, and that the resurrection occurs ‘at his coming.’ He taught the man of sin would be destroyed ‘at his coming.
There is pretrib rapture recorded in the events of Revelation. The ‘first resurrection’ follows the passage about the return of Christ on a white horse in Revelation.
Paul calls the rapture our gathering unto the Lord Jesus Christ. In Matthew 24, the gathering of the elect at the return of Christ occurs after the tribulation.
II Thessalonians 1 shows Jesus returning for a persecuted church and simutaneously executing vengence on them that belive not, when He comes to be glorified in the saints.
Post trib does not require having two gatherings of the saints unto Christ. Post trib does nott require making the word parousia (coming) refer to separate returns of Christ.
My question for ypu is why do ypu still continue to believe in pretrib? Is it because your heart cannot tolerate the idea of enduring such persecution? Do you care more about following the teachings of a certain movement than what the scripture teaches?
Varnel Watson
As obvious from the Greek text we have harpazo and we have parousia Not 2 parousiaS as you try to imply Even grandma Louise Cummings explained it to you
Link Hudson
Troy Day they that are Christ’s are made alive ‘at His coming’ this happens right BEFORE the rapture.
Why don’t you sit down and actually read the relevant passages. I Thessalonians 4:15 shows us that the rapture happens at rge coming, the parousia of the Lord.
You may benefit from reading every verse that has parousia in it and the surrounding context.
Is the parousia in I Thes. 4:15 when Jesus raptures the church the only one?
Gary Micheal Epping
Why piece together second-hand scriptures from John’s Revelation, the writings of Paul, or from Daniel to come up with a theology of His Coming, when you have a first-hand testament from the lips of the one who is coming back in MAT 24. His Disciples in verse 3 say, “Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? Jesus does not mention an early rapture and late return, but only a single coming in verses 29-31. He also tells exactly when this will happen, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” I take the words of Jesus literally, and it is quite clear to me that the rapture is post-trib.
Link Hudson
Gary Micheal Epping Paul expected the church of the Thessalonians also to experience the coming of our Lord and our gathering unto Him. (II Thess. 2:1.) It makes so much more sense just to stick with what the Bible says instead of trying to make it fit with some other theory that isn’t even taught in the Bible (pre-trib.)
Pre-trib is more comfortable because people do not want to go through suffering.
Gary Micheal Epping
Link Hudson True. We were never promised that we would not have to suffer in the end times. If anyone had earned the right to avoid suffering, it would have been the disciples. But, all were killed at the end of their lives except John. The tribulation will be a great opportunity for Christians to witness and help evangelize the lost. Men like Troy will have the chance to bring large numbers of people to Christ during these days.
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day In the sheepfold.
Varnel Watson
I feel Perry settles it all in the video above
Michael Todd Combs
Jesus settled it in Matthew.
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day I like following the bible rather than a theology or person.
Link Hudson
Troy Day are you serious. Perry Stone argued against strawmen and cut Matthew 24 off before the part about the post trib gathering of the saints.
Varnel Watson
most of Matthew 24 is about Israel anyway So is most of the Tribulation read in Revelation BTW when read with no prejudice
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping we can of course start a topic on Mt 24 of course and look at the Greek there to determine WHO is Jesus speaking to literally. We ma have even done this back in the day only to discover that it is mainly for the Jews My recent experience with Link Hudson has been however that when a larger passage is thrown like that 2 Thes whoel chapter or 1 Cor 15 half chapter and we start digging in the Greek the poster is not prepared to face the truth that most of the passage does NOT indeed support his/her hypothesis in any way possible. We then move to looking into it exegetically verse by verse only to find out that most verses in the passage cited as “evidence” are not even referring to the subject as the poster would like them to. We’ve then established 3 major sources – close to original Greek, early Church fathers interpretations and of course various (and early) English translations only to find out that they are pretty much accurate taken together and for the most of the large passage they disagree with the posters theretix; finally the poster is left with 2-3 words from the whole passage, not even a verse, and for the most of it the original claim when countered with the actual Biblical text says the opposite of what the posters has claimed. Hence the need to study the Bible along with the Biblical languages and the earliest interpretations known to be closest to the Biblical reality and to what exactly JESUS said
Gary Micheal Epping
You mean we can’t not trust the KJB to tell us what Jesus is saying? I think the translators were inspired to make an accurate translation into English. It is not hard to literally determine who Jesus is speaking to in MAT 24. His disciples that believed in him asked the question in verse 3, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” ‘Tell us’ indicates the audience is his disciples or believers. Jesus continually uses the word ‘you’ throughout referring to his disciples , not ‘they’ as it would be the case if the jews were referenced. The word ‘elect’ is used in the discussion about the Tribulation to indicate the church which is still there, not the jews. True, the jews were the ‘elect’ in the OT before the first coming of Jesus. But, they were cut off because of unbelief in Jesus, and the gentiles were grafted in. The gentiles replaced the jews as the elect until the end times. During the Tribulation, many Jews will accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior and are promised to be grafted back in during the Tribulation. They will become a part o the Church and the elect. BUT, DURING THE TRIBULATION, the elect will be be made up of both messianic jews and gentiles. No gentiles are cut out during this time. The audience clearly in MAT 24 is the believer in Jesus Christ, whether jew or gentile.
Varnel Watson
there is no KJB – do you mean KJV?
Link Hudson
Gary Micheal Epping You know that the 12 apostles Jesus was talking to were Jews. They did not become Gentiles… ever.
Varnel Watson
what about Paul who became all things to all men, since you are going another red herring #strawman
Link Hudson
Troy Day Still a Jew doing that. Just commenting on Jews still being in the church. It’s worth of a comment, but not the main point. Let’s get back to something related to the topic.
Why does Paul teach the rapture happens at the coming of the Lord, and the man of sin is destroyed at the coming of the Lord? Why would the Bible put something that happens at the end of the tribulation at the same time as the rapture?
Varnel Watson
didnt he say to the Gentiles I became Gentile ?
Gary Micheal Epping
Troy Day I have always called it the King James bible. You can call it what you want.
Gary Micheal Epping
Link Hudson Don’t lecture me. The apostles were jewish believers, which is quite different than the OT jews that rejected Jesus and were cut off. These jewish believers were not cut off and the gentiles later joined them as the elect of Jesus Christ.
Link Hudson
Gary Micheal Epping Still– he is a Jew who is one inwardly. Treating ‘Jew’ as it refers only to unbelievers isn’t in line with how the Bible uses the term and writing as if all believers are Gentiles isn’t Biblical either.
Gary Micheal Epping
Link Hudson The difference between OT jews and jewish believers or Messianic jews is as different as day and night. There is no difference between between jewish believers and gentile believers as they both are followers of Jesus. None of MAT 24 is about OT jews and everything about jewish believers and later gentile believers. The elect after the coming of Jesus is about those that have accepted him as Lord and Savior regardless of what their pedigree might be.
Varnel Watson
Gary Micheal Epping I feel Perry settles it in this one I really have little to none to add to his defense
Link Hudson
Troy Day I haven’t noticed but I have not checked for past posts. I edit spelling if I posted from my phone and catch the error later.
You could directly answer how mant parousias there are since Paul sets the rapture and destruction of the man of sin at the time of His coming/parousia.
Varnel Watson
It’s a strange thing and difficult to work with I see a notification you tagged me I look to find it and is not there Either just your comment with no tag or no comment at all. Than a bit later on I see that Link Hudson tagged mentioned you 48 min ago. BTW FB has removed tagging as you call it It is now called mention. You mention someone when you speak directly to them It is much more personal than tagging
Link Hudson
Troy Day i might have deleted one message yesterday. I have tried to post an OP and it disappeared.
Btw why are the deatruction of the man of sin and the rapture both set at the parousia of Christ?
Varnel Watson
Yeah, convenient Perry settles it End of story
Link Hudson
Settles nothing. He does not deal with the fact that the scriptures are inconsistent with pre-trib. He argues against strawmen
Varnel Watson
1 Thes 4 ; Rev 4 and so on are pretty consistent with pre-Trib This settles the doctrine Perry settles the controversy itself
Link Hudson
Troy Day Why does Paul say the rapture happens at the parousia, and that the destruction of the man of sin happens at the parousia?
How can you make that fit with pre-trib? In pre-trib, the rapture happens 7 years before the man of sin is judged? Why do you dodge this questions repeatedly?
Varnel Watson
Paul does not say the rapture happens at the parousia That’s your error you need to work on correcting
Link Hudson
Troy Day I Thessalonian 4:15 we who are alive and remain unto the PAROUSIAN of the Lord. It is right there in the rapture passage.
How does this not flat out disprove pretrib? How can you ve pretrib if the biggest rapture passage is about the parpusia?
Varnel Watson
You well know that’s NOT what it says I’ve spent enough time explaining you the basics. Pls consult the 1 Thes 4 topic
Link Hudson
Troy Day I have not seen you explain such things anywhere on the forum the closest I have seen is a link to a conversation where one of the participants suggested the parousia could last for a long time. Unless Facebook is hiding your messages it sure seems like you are dodging the issue That sounds like a desparate attempt to deal with a gaping hole in pretrib. But you did not say which aspect of that conversation you agreed with.
Neither pretending the Greek does not use parousian in I Rhes. 4:15 or pretending you have addressed the issue does away with what the verse says.
Varnel Watson
I believe I already explained all this thoroughly in the said topic Your only response was it was too long you had no time to read you had a fam. to feed etc Oh well I dont see any point repeating it again and again for no one to read
Link Hudson
Troy Day I recall you posted on a verse 5 that was not about the timing. Pisting someone else’s thread in something else and expecting people to dig throgh to find a relevant comment and guess what you mean is not answering it yourself.
Varnel Watson
You are known to recall things the wrong away https://www.facebook.com/groups/pentecostaltheologygroup/permalink/1895115430543463/
Link Hudson
Troy Day no that’s a long thread I referred to earlier where you do not state which poster you agreed with. When I asked if you believed in two parousia or onethat lasted 7 years you said no one in theology was talking about this. Here we have someone who argues that the parousia is a state–probably a pretribber trying to get a way to wrap the Greek aeound pretrib and interpret it that way– just as many pretribbers try to reinterpret the texts in the Thessalonian epistles to fit with the theory. It would be odd that the parousia of Christ, His prescence or official visit- would all be one event if it referred to Jesus coming back partway, going back and returning again. How is that not two parousia?
I also suspect the first pretribber to argue that the apostasia was a reference to the rapture rather than a departing from the faith was after pretrib was developed in the 1800s. Even Darby translated the word as apostasy. Wyclliff translated it as ‘dissencion’ if you think past translations prove Greek meaning. A.D. Tyndale interpreted it to mean departure from the faith if you think the daparting translation was evidence for belief that apostasia is the rapture. https://bewareofthewolves.blogspot.com/2016/01/apostasia-rebellion-or-rapture-thomas.html?m=1
It does not make sense for Paul to say the rapture cannot take place before the rapture anyway.
J. Webb Mealy
That lecture is entirely off base, scripturally speaking. As others have observed, Link Hudson’s only real scriptural argument is that the gathering of the faithful to Jesus is not the same as the post-tribulational coming Jesus speaks about in Mt. 24:29-30. But he leaves off the very next verse, 24:31:
“And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”
This loud trumpet is mentioned by Paul, who teaches on the gathering to be with the Lord Jesus “by the word of the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:15), i.e., he got his teaching from Jesus:
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we shall always be with the Lord.” (1 Thess. 4:16-17).
The Lord is indeed coming with all his holy ones–the holy angels and the “spirits of righteous people made perfect” (Heb. 12:22-23), and we who love him and who survive until his coming in glory will be gathered to him and all our family of the faithful, to receive the gift of incorruptible and everlasting life in the new creation.
All that stuff about America and abstract arguments about the supposed need for persecution is irrelevant. It neither supports one side nor refutes the other. What counts is what the Scriptures teach.
For a thorough and clear exposition on the relationship between Paul’s teaching about the rapture in 1 Thessalonians and Jesus’ teaching about his coming in glory in Matthew 24, see my essay
Varnel Watson
I dont just know anyone else Angel Ruiz but when THAT trumpet sounds I am going home Anyone else believing anything else is welcome to stay left behind… Louise Cummings
Varnel Watson
Moorehouse Moore weve settled this with One thousand comments on the pre-Trib RAPTURE of the Church http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/one-thousand-comments-on-the-pre-trib-rapture-of-the-church/
Varnel Watson
though there is still a a MAJOR PROBLEM for pos-trib in Matthew 24 RichardAnna Boyce http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/pos-trib-in-matthew-24/
Varnel Watson
consider this MAJOR problem Philip Williams as presented by RichardAnna Boyce and his studies
Philip Williams
Troy Day I especially don’t consider RichardAnnaBoyce’s studies, or studied twisting of Scripture. But Matthew 24 speaks of people being taken from the face of the earth just as in the days of Noah, leaving behind only the tiny remnant of the meek.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams the OP speaker is No 1 on this
Philip Williams
Troy Day this is a man without an anointing, but as mentioned in Isaiah, lighting his own fire with this crowd.
He is a Pentecostal entertainer, entertaining carnal, that is worldly Christians.
Philip Williams
Troy Day
“For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.”
2 Timothy 4:3-4
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams I think it was RichardAnna Boyce proposing a GREAT theological explanation of Mt 25
Eddie Burdick
For 30 years I believed in pre-trip rapture now I don’t
Varnel Watson
many alike have left the eternal hope and will remain LEFT BEHIND Philip Williams
Philip Williams
Troy Day best to put your eternal hope in Jesus.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams coming back on the clouds pre-Trib
Philip Williams
Troy Day according to Revelation, a lot of bad stuff precedes that white horse coming with the armies of Heaven.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams you need to believe only Jesus
Philip Williams
Troy Day yes, he sent his angel to share with us his book of Revelation.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams not all have to be in the rapture Some were predestined to be left behind 🙂
Philip Williams
Troy Day
Those left behind are the meek who inherit the earth.
Eddie Burdick
Troy Day If I am left behind then I will preach the cross
Varnel Watson
Eddie Burdick you will not be allowed to preach YES Philip Williams count in the anti Christ too 🙂
Eddie Burdick
Anyone who will hear and if I die I die in Christ if I live I live in Christ.
Philip Williams
Troy Day I haven’t been allowed to preach Christ in Pentecostals churches.
All these carnal Pentecostals are cowards. Their destiny is the fire if not also the lake of fire where cowards go.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams I do not believe you are Pentecostal yet
Philip Williams
Troy Day My Pentecostal roots are very deep. Not only that, so are my personal connections to family members and close associates of the original Pentecostal leaders. I also have a good memory not only of hearing about the persecutions of Pentecostals for their refusal to serve in the military, but knowing the opposition first hand.
I’m a true Holy Roller.
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams is LEFT BEHIND the new pink?