Click to join the conversation with over 500,000 Pentecostal believers and scholars
Click to get our FREE MOBILE APP and stay connected
Pentecostal Theology | PentecostalTheology.com
Several weeks ago Pastor David M. Hinsen contacted the group for some materials on demon possession and deliverance as a ministry in the church today. This topic has been of some interest to the group for some times now, and over the weekend PentecostalTheology.com (a.k.a. PT/5Q) will be releasing all available posts on the topic in one collective article.
Additionally, the well known Stephen Conn’s exorcism story “The Devil Called Collect” is currently on TV via a popular show called “I was possessed” (season 1 now running) >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RsIrclKH3o
“At two-o’clock in the morning on Tuesday, March 11, 1980, Pastor J. Stephen Conn received a long distance, collect telephone call from a young woman desperately pleading for help. Afraid, alone, and deeply involved in witchcraft, all Jessica Leek knew about the man she was calling is that his number had been given to her by a stranger while she was hitch-hiking. As Jessica spoke, numerous demonic voices unexpectedly came from her lips–blaspheming, threatening, and identifying themselves by name.” http://thedevilcalledcollect.blogspot.com/
Furthermore, PentecostalTheology.com (a.k.a. PT/5Q) has dispatched a group of colleagues to various Pentecostal research facilities to collect more scholarly and practical information on demon possession and deliverance as a ministry in the church today. Beginning next week, fragments of this research will be presented to the group for further discussion. You can also participate with offering resources, opinions and testimonies of this practice as relevant to the Pentecostal tradition and theology.
FULL LIST of study topics: http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/all-you-need-to-know-about-demon-warfare-in-the/
Assembies of God possition paper on demon possessed people and deliverance minsitry in the church today:
http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/position_papers/pp_downloads/pp_4176_possessed.pdf
Jon Ray
Charles Page Stephen Conn’s exorcism story “The Devil Called Collect” is currently on TV via a popular show called “I was possessed” (season 1 now running) http://www.mylifetime.com/…/video/se…/episode-4/jessica/adam
Charles Page
Stephen Conn is deceived about that. He is not alone in the deception.
Jon Ray
“At two-o’clock in the morning on Tuesday, March 11, 1980, Pastor J. Stephen Conn received a long distance, collect telephone call from a young woman desperately pleading for help. Afraid, alone, and deeply involved in witchcraft, all Jessica Leek knew about the man she was calling is that his number had been given to her by a stranger while she was hitch-hiking. As Jessica spoke, numerous demonic voices unexpectedly came from her lips–blaspheming, threatening, and identifying themselves by name.” http://thedevilcalledcollect.blogspot.com/
Varnel Watson
Thank you for the great testimony Pastor J. Stephen Conn “The Devil Called Collect” is currently on TV via a popular show called “I was possessed” (season 1 now running) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RsIrclKH3o
David Lewayne Porter
What ever happened to
fasting, prayer, discerning of spirits, and following the leading of the Holy Spirit.
None of the situations I have personally dealt with have been handled the same way.
The majority of what I have heard others say and watched them do is far from where it should be (Biblically).
Varnel Watson
So David Lewayne Porter are you saying we need extra-Biblical knowledge or experience?
David Lewayne Porter
I am saying exactly the opposite;
I personally believe that we are complicating the issue inorder to cover our short comings.
Let’s go to Mark 9:29 since Matt 17:21 is omitted by some texts due to similarities with it.
Mark 9:28-29
And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately, Why could not we cast him out? And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by prayer and fasting.
Add in Matt 17 Jesus questioned them for their faithlessness and being preverse. Matthew 17:16-17
And I brought him to thy disciples, and they could not cure him. Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.
He then explained to them that it was for their unbelief.
Matthew 17:19-20
Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out? And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
Some texts omit (and fasting) from Mark 9:29
But the issue is
1) are we prepared and ready to aid them through prayer, not just at the point of their need but as prayerful devoted preparation of ourselves in advance
2) do they really wanting to be delivered, set free, made whole?
A desire to be whole is a critical focus point. Not just wanting pity, not just wanting attention, but desiring wholeness.
Varnel Watson
You’ve lost me at hello on this one brother
David Lewayne Porter
Troy, why would we need extra-biblical knowledge or experience?
We need
1) a deeper devotion, this kind cometh out but by prayer – and fasting. Because of your unbelief (faithless and perverse generation).
2) a true desire and willingness to be delivered when afforded the opportunity.
Lennie Marx
Just do what Jesus tells us to do! Mark 16:15-20
Varnel Watson
Lennie Do you fell Jesus tell us to cast demons out of everyone or just unbelievers in Mark 16:15-20 David Lewayne Porter
Lennie Marx
Part having the ability to cast them out is to discern who has them! Any questions?
Varnel Watson
Yes. What if it is being discerned that a Spirit baptist has a demon? We’ve discussed the topic with Robert Borders and agree that it generally comes down to that question
David Lewayne Porter
That is not possible (Spirit filled has a demon).
Do you have a scriptural reference?
Troy Day
You may want to check what is being “discerned”.
There is the issue.
Varnel Watson
Are you saying a spirit-filled cannot backslide and have a dermon ? I have plenty of verses to that extend
David Lewayne Porter
If they back slide then they ARE not a believer or spirit filled – any longer.
Now what was your question in light of your word “backslide”?
Give me your verses that the person in question is still Spirit filled, is a believer – by definition, and at the same time presently currently has a demon.
Just think about those three situations happening at once.
Robert Borders
I frequently meet with people who have severe Bipolar disorders, Schizophrenia, PTSD, personality disorders, and even Dissociative Identify Disorders. Many persons coming for prayer have stopped taking medications are psychotic and delusional. I find it important to look at what is going on before jumping into a prayer for deliverance from demons.
David Lewayne Porter
You have believers that are not Spirit filled. And you think an unbeliever can be?
Even though mammon is ill-gotten gain,
You can’t serve God and mammon so how do they backslide to let satan be their master and you think they hold onto God and His Spirit?
What about this one
Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
David Lewayne Porter
Robert Borders
Agreed, that is when I pray for healing according to the underlying cause.
Lennie Marx
Troy Consider this Romans 8:9!
Varnel Watson
Lennie Consider 1 Cor. 5
Lennie Marx
Troy consider 2 Cor 5 is an Epistle which is written to those who have already been immersed in the unaltered form of Acts 2:38 and would have received what Jesus promised to them, Mark 16:15-20!
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter In first Cor. 5 a spirit filled man had a relationship with his mother. Paul said ” hand this man over to Satan” #HELLO
David Lewayne Porter
No, his father’s wife, step mother.
Reread the text Troy
And show me where he was considered a spirit filled with Paul saying 1 Corinthians 5:13
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Look up “wicked”.
He was not even a believer at this point.
David Lewayne Porter
At some point, go back and read my comments.
Do you believe OSAS?
Varnel Watson
A Spirit filled believer from the Corinth church backslide from the church and had an adulterous demon. Does this sum it up?
David Lewayne Porter
Paul said KICK HIM OUT.
Again, reread it, where did it say she was a part of the church.
Paul never addressed her except for stating they were “together”.
So where is the “them”?
David Lewayne Porter
Show me his demon?
Again you add to the text.
2 Cor 2 Paul speaks of restoring the man but not a,word of casting out a devil.
Did you miss that?
Lennie Marx
Troy! Your forgetting an important point in your response!
David Lewayne Porter
No, his father’s wife, step mother.
Reread the text Troy
And show me where he was considered a spirit filled with Paul saying 1 Corinthians 5:13
But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Look up “wicked”.
He was not even a believer at this point.
Varnel Watson
So was he a believer at any point? Paul sure seems to count them as part of the Corinth church. Glad to see the step-mother is where you draw the line 🙂
Varnel Watson
So David Lewayne Porter before we loose track again. My original question was – – – Are you saying that a spirit-filled believer cannot backslide and have a dermon like did the man in Corinth ?
David Lewayne Porter
No, you drew the line there.
You added/changed words to your defense and use of Scripture.
To your point (if he was a believer or not), if he was spirit filled or not….
Paul said get him out, get rid of him, let satan have his way with him.
Does that sound like a current spirit filled believer?
Would a spirit filled believer be actively fornicating?
Did Paul say he had a devil?
Actually 2 Cor 2 speaks of restoring him but not talk of casting out any devils.
David Lewayne Porter
If they back slide the back slider can have a demon, but they are no longer a believer or spirit filled as your post presents the question.
Varnel Watson
Good point David Lewayne Porter Now about Judas Iscariot – did the devil got inside of him before he betrayed Jesus or did he betray Jesus because he got demonized?
David Lewayne Porter
Satan filled Judas` heart, not a demon
Which means he was no longer a believer and most definitely not Spirit filled.
Luke 22:3-6
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them. And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money. And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.
John 13:26-27
Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly.
Jesus said this of Judas (Jesus` own words)
John 6:70-71
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
According to Jesus
Was Judas a believer?
Jesus called him a devil.
Not demon possessed
Not a believer
Not Spirit filled.
Literally filled with/by satan himself
Greek 4567
Varnel Watson
Did the devil/Satan got inside of Judas before he betrayed Jesus or did he betray Jesus because he got satanized?
David Lewayne Porter
You question is the same, brother.
Both involves satan – not a demon or devil – entering him, and both are in advance of the betrayal.
So what is your actual question?
Unless you are asking if satan entered before the betrayal or after it.
Yes satan was inside of him before he betrayed Jesus because satan himself entered in.
Scriptures referenced in my previous post John 13, Luke 22.
(According to these passages it appears satan can enter and exit a NON-Believer at will).
Varnel Watson
Wouldn’t being filled with Satan be even worse than being possessed with one demon? What do you feel is the difference?
Lennie Marx
The solution to demon position is given by Jesus in Mark 16:15-20 anything less then this is falsehood!
David Lewayne Porter
The result is the same.
Who is the leader of the demons/devils?
Matthew 12:24
But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
Most people would not even rank high enough to be approached by the prince of devils.
But back to our main discussion (was Judas at that time of possession a believer and Holy Spirit filled)?
Varnel Watson
Is there anything in the text to suggest that Judas was not a believer when Satan possessed him? Luke 22:3 seems to show Judas was very much a believer and one of the 12 apostles at the time:
Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve.
Another good point to the discussion also is if Judas betrayed Jesus willfully?
1. Judas had no more control over his own actions as he was possessed by the devil.
OR
2. Judas yielded himself to the temptation of 30 pieces of silver offered by the priests for betraying Jesus.
The first option would mean that Judas was possessed and hence had no control over his own will whereas the second option would mean that the betrayal was a self-willed one.
David Lewayne Porter
Lennie Marx
Come up to the conversation at hand,
The question was set forth as to if a believer (especially a Holy Spirit filled believer) could also at the same time be possessed.
That is what I am disputing.
Not Mark 16.
By the way some scholars say Mark 16 was added later and not in the original documents.
You may want to stick with Matt 28:18-20.
It is still covered with the power Jesus gave the disciples while He was on earth, it just circumvents the issue of re-addressing your point.
Varnel Watson
Some say God used Satan by allowing Satan to enter Judas but it seems to me very clear from the text Judas Iscariot was not predestined to betray Jesus, and he had a choice in the matter.
Consider Psalm 41:9: “The man at peace with me, in whom I trusted, who was eating my bread, has magnified his heel against me.”
David Lewayne Porter
I agree that it DID NOT HAVE TO BE Judas by name.
We must then consider what Peter said as one observing it all as it happened and unfolded;
Acts 1:15-20 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,) Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
But yet again, at that point and moment was Judas a believer and was he Holy Ghost filled?.
Varnel Watson
The Bible does not discuss in detail but an incident that occurred on Nisan 9, 33 C.E., five days before Jesus’ death, sheds light on the matter. At Bethany in the house of Simon the leper, Mary, Lazarus’ sister, anointed Jesus with perfumed oil worth 300 denarii, about a year’s wages for a laborer. (Matthew 20:2) Judas strongly objected that the oil could have been sold and the money “given to the poor people.” Judas’ real reason for objecting was that he cared for the money box and he “was a thief . . . and used to carry off the monies” put in the box. So Judas was a greedy, practicing thief. (John 12:2-7).
He must have had a good heart to begin with, since Jesus would not otherwise have chosen him as an apostle. But after being reproved by Jesus at that time, Judas resentfully plotted his Master’s betrayal. (Matthew 26:6-16) At this time “Satan entered into Judas,” likely in the sense that the traitorous apostle gave himself in to the will of the Devil, allowing himself to be a tool to carry out Satan’s design to stop Christ. A few days later, on Nisan 12, Judas went to the chief priests and temple captains to see how much they would pay him to betray Jesus, again showing his avarice. When Jesus later revealed that one of the 12 would betray him, Judas innocently asked: “It is not I, is it?” (Matthew 26:25)
David Lewayne Porter
Jesus could have chosen him knowing he was that way – you pointed out that he was a thief.
Jesus also said that He had chosen 12 and one was a devil.
Also look at his prayer in John 17
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
But again,
Was he at that point a believer and Holy Ghost filled?
Varnel Watson
We seem to be repeating this one over and over again – Luke 22:3 seems to show Judas was very much a believer and one of the 12 apostles at the time:
Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve
David Lewayne Porter
So if Judas willfully decided to betray Jesus and allow satan in
Was He at That moment a believer and Holy Spirit filled?
We are not repeating ourselves, the question and answer to it is being avoided.
I should not go here, but he hanged himself.
Is that what a believer trusting God and believing in Jesus with Holy Ghost over coming power living on the inside does?
Matthew 27:5-10
And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter’s field, to bury strangers in. Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; And gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord appointed me.
Is that what Holy Ghost over coming power is for?
Is that what a believer does in order to handle the situations that they get themselves into?
There is the difference between Peter going outside, weeping bitterly and being restored (converted according to what Jesus told Peter in advance).
Unlike Judas doing it his way on his own.
He was looking for man to restore him instead of Jesus and when the priests would not he was so “lost” that he killed himself.
Varnel Watson
Luke 22:3 Then Satan entered Judas, called Iscariot, one of the Twelve – can one be an apostle if not saved and Spirit filled?
David Lewayne Porter
Do they stay an apostle if they walk away?
Jesus said,
Uh, hum
Jesus said that Judas was “lost”.
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled..
I guess Jesus knew.
Let’s use an eyewitness account (Peter)
Who references David the prophet
Acts 1:16-20
Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood. For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Brother,
Study Judas Iscariot and see if he did any good as part of his Bishopric.
As a matter of fact, everything you have posted about him shows that he is remembered for the bad he did,.
Is that the mark of a believer?
As a minister is that the way you would tell a Christian to leave behind a testimony?
I mean really.
Let’s you and I cut through it,
Is that what you want to say as a minister?
David Lewayne Porter
By the way, as far as was Judas Iscariot Spirit filled,
When did Jesus give the indwelling of the Holy Ghost?
John 7:37-39
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
When Judas was here and part of Jesus` ministry the Holy Spirit had not been given because Jesus had not yet been glorified.
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter The texts from Acts quoted are much later and irrelevant to our conversation. Nevertheless, two conclusions can be drawn from your interpretation of Luke Luke 22:3
(1) Either Judas, successfully continued to be an elect apostle of Jesus Christ after he backslide and was possessed by Satan
(2) Or the more obvious: Judas was tempted and possessed by Satan while still an elect apostle of Jesus Christ.
Though practice shows us this is quite possible, I can understand why you would want to stay away from the later interpretation.
But isn’t the prior even more harmful to the Church Body namely to have ordained priests, bishops and apostles who continue with their “ministry” while under Satan’s influence or even demonic possession – as Paul said in 2 Timothy 3:5 having a form of godliness but denying its power? Robert Borders
Robert Borders
Or even worse, having leaders that claim power yet have no real godliness!
Robert Borders
Though I speak with tongues yet have no love . . . .