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| PentecostalTheology.com
The survey, released Thursday by the Washington-based Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life, found that experiences of divine healing of physical ailments were far more prominent for those who affiliate with the vibrant and growing segment of Christianity.
Researchers found that many Pentecostals and charismatics attend worship services where speaking in tongues and other signs of the Holy Spirit are evident. But in six of the 10 countries surveyed, at least 40 percent of Pentecostals said they never pray or speak in tongues.
“I think that the classic Pentecostal belief that speaking in tongues was the real evidence of the second baptism of the Holy Spirit is, at least in practice, not widely accepted around the world,” said John Green, senior fellow at the Pew Forum and a longtime observer of religion and politics.
The Assemblies of God, one of the nation’s largest Pentecostal denominations with 3 million members, has 66 million members worldwide. Assemblies officials worried about the decline in messages in tongues — or spirit baptism — at a general council meeting this month. The practice decreased by about 3 percent to fewer than 82,000, the lowest total since 1995, according to statistics released by the Assemblies of God.
“This is a long-developing phenomenon,” said Harvey Cox, an expert in Pentecostalism and professor of religion at the Harvard Divinity School. “They don’t want what appears to be objectionable to stick out or be viewed with suspicion.” Pentecostalism represents one of the fastest-growing segments of global Christianity. At least a quarter of the world’s 2 billion Christians are members of the Pentecostal faith or related charismatic movements, according to the Pew Research Center.
Varnel Watson
Some additional considerations by David Arnett before we start this perhaps good discussion Ify Divine Nsoha Emanuel Rodriguez http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/why-tongues-the-initial-evidence-doctrine-in-north-american-pentecostal-churches/
Melvin Shomo
The report is probably right because the leaders of the churches do not know how to pray over the people to help them release their prayer language.
The church is becoming more trusting in the world’s technology including medical.
The prayer of faith isn’t healing the people, because most Churches relinquish all athority over to the medical Doctors
Scotty Searan
I agree with you very much.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Scotty Searan
I agree with you very much.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
Varnel Watson
Seems like specific to our AG. What is in your denominations where you pastor Terry Wiles Ed Brewer David Lewayne Porter Daniel Blaylock Daniel Rushing
Daniel Rushing
Dr. Voorhis from ECBC did some research on this in the lat 90s early 2000s and his numbers were that or worse in the COG if I remember correctly.
Daniel Blaylock
Sadly, I’d suspect this statistic would hold true in our denomination as well.
Varnel Watson
Daniel Rushing Is this the study out of Charlotte ?
Daniel Rushing
In one of his books. I think “Experiences in Pentecost.”
Varnel Watson
Is that the one that says only 6% spoke in tongues? Can you post a snap shot pls?
Daniel Rushing
I’ll try.
Varnel Watson
heard that 🙂
Varnel Watson
Melvin Harter this is the book
Ed Brewer
Dr Lamar Vest, when he was General Overseer, said that when the church drops below 50% spirit filled with initial evidence we lose the right to legitimately be called Pentecostal. (My paraphrase)
Varnel Watson
Are you referring to the same study as Daniel Rushing What is the exact numbers currently ?
Emanuel Rodriguez
I dare not comment, I’ll sit this one out
Terry Wiles
The problem can be more a lack of time for altars and church camps where people can let God move on their heart.
Dan Irving
Hold the boat. The question “Do all speak in tongues?” is clearly rhetorical. Not all do.
Dean Roy
This is referring to the gift and not the personal prayer language. Every one on the day of Pentecost spoke with tongues.Acts 19 All twelve spoke in tongues and prophecyed. Time doesn’t alway for a bible study here
Varnel Watson
Dan That question refers to the gift of speaking in tongues not the initial evidence. At Pentecost they ALL heard them speak
Dan Irving
Troy Day, Look again at the title. “Speak” is present-tense. It does not ask “HAVE all . .”
Varnel Watson
What are you talking about ?
Dan Irving
Your statistic of lamentation that “40% of all Pentecostals don’t speak in tongues.” I am saying, that is not necessarily a problem, as scripture would agree.
Varnel Watson
1 Corinthians 12:30-31
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. And yet I will show you the most excellent way.
Mention of gifts before and after as well as the list literary form shows without doubt Pail is speaking of the gift of speaking in tongues accompanied with interpretation. He takes the time to explain the difference in the following chapter 14
Scotty Searan
How many members actually have any of the 9 manifestations of Holy Ghost operating in their lives today.
These are supernatural manifestations, not learned manifestations.
Every Holy Ghost baptize believer should have a manifestation of the Holy Ghost operating in their life.
We are commanded to walk in the Spirit and sooner or later the Spirit will manifest itself.
Dan Irving
“Ask?” Of course. What percentage prophesy? (Y’know, we are SPECIFICALLY told to ask for that gift.)
Varnel Watson
Yes we are from whereas the difference between the gift of speaking in tongues and the initial evidence. The OP is about the initial evidence present with the Baptism of the HS
Daniel J Hesse
An apositive expression in Greek. Yet, the answer is found in the first chapter of Corinthians.
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse what is the situation i your church ?
Daniel J Hesse
1 Cor 1:4-7.
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles the problem could be not entirely sanctified hears. The Holy Spirit will not enter not entirely sanctified heart
Daniel J Hesse
Are you sure?
Varnel Watson
mhm
Daniel J Hesse
Our people are afraid of the Holy Spirit. You can’t control the Holy Spirit.
Varnel Watson
mhm
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse whos your ppl church or denomination? Says you live in DC I lived in Alexandrian and then Fairfax back in the day and was not for once away anyone lived in the actual DC
Daniel J Hesse
As Pentecostalism became more cultural 4 and 5 generations many forsook the work of the Spirit.
Varnel Watson
should have never happened – I am 4-5 generation Pentecostal
Daniel J Hesse
Pressure to conform and stay relevant and viable too.
Daniel J Hesse
Any one who holds to the baptism with other tongues finds themselves on the outside.
Varnel Watson
major fail
Daniel J Hesse
Reality
Daniel J Hesse
Most folks who experience the work of the Spirit in mass setting rarely fan the flame or exercise in yieldedness to Him.
Varnel Watson
what mass setting do you mean?
Daniel J Hesse
Camp and evangelistic meetings. The model of Acts 2: they were sitting and the Spirit came upon them.
Varnel Watson
Did you mean it per specific denomination ?
Daniel J Hesse
Exactly as I have stated. No clarifiers here.
Varnel Watson
What do you mean?
Daniel J Hesse
Camp evangelistic meetings
Varnel Watson
Dan I am more interested in stats from churches per OP but I will take the time to explain
Acts 2 and following Acts passages show they ALL spoke in tongues
Holding that Paul in 1 Cor 12 does not refer to the gift paired with interpretation is a secession view which I strongly disagree with. Per out last conversation some knowledge of the Greek is a must. Paul clearly explains the difference in 1 Cor 14. The different Greek words used prove it without question
Daniel J Hesse
The teal question is do people have faith to exercise what they receive from the Holy Spirit? Are they willing to grow in their gifts and continually manifest His fruit. I question manifestations where the very fruit of the Spirit is absent. Some behavior is very abhorrent.
Varnel Watson
True that Alan Smith #backTOtheBASICS
Daniel J Hesse
It is sown in peace of those who live in the same. The Gospel and Pentecost has taken so many different hues and operated in a spirit of competition.
Terry Wiles
Troy Day. Well, I’m sure there are plenty of unsanctified hearts.
Scotty Searan
How many members actually have any of the 9 manifestations of Holy Ghost operating in their lives today.
These are supernatural manifestations, not learned manifestations.
Every Holy Ghost baptize believer should have a manifestation of the Holy Ghost operating in their life.
We are commanded to walk in the Spirit and sooner or later the Spirit will manifest itself.
Emanuel Rodriguez
9 manifestations? Please share
Scotty Searan
Nine gifts of the Spirit
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse I am not aware of any major Pentecostal camp meeting in the Washington DC area. Where about one would be held there?
Terry Wiles The Holy Spirit will not enter an unsanctified heart Light shall not abide with darkness and Christ with Satan
Scotty Searan After studying early Pentecostals for years now I am not ware of ANY early Pentecostal group that did not speak 100% in tongues or did not believe tongues were the sign or recognized someone is baptized with the HS without speaking in tongues
Daniel Rushing I do hope you get us that study today
Terry Wiles
Troy Day. I am sanctified in Christ Jesus and baptized into the Body of Christ by the work of the Holy Spirit. However, I am not perfect and neither are you.
Varnel Watson
You need to read on Weslyan second work of grace
John-Mark Neal Hales
Troy, do you actually believe sanctification ends and is complete at the moment the Holy Sprit enters someone’s life?
Varnel Watson
Have you read Wesley on second work of grace?
John-Mark Neal Hales
Can you summarize it?
Terry Wiles
Honestly, Troy Day, I haven’t seen the fruit of what you call a “second work of grace” in anybody. It makes a good preaching point. But the evidence is totally subjective.
At least with The Baptism in The Holy Spirit we agree that the evidence is objective: tongues.
Varnel Watson
Have you seen The Holy Spirit?
Terry Wiles
I have a personal relationship with Him. Do you?
Angela Dobson
I have a question. Where in the bible does it say we are to have a relationship with the HS?
Terry Wiles
Angela Dobson read John 15 and 16. Jesus is saying the Holy Spirit will be sent by Him and will guide you and be in you.
Ify Divine Nsoha
There is no second work of grace called sanctification.
Ify Divine Nsoha
Sanctification happened at the moment of conversion AND is a continual process of becoming like Christ. Wesley was a great man – he was wrong on that one
Daniel Blaylock
I think most people completely misunderstand was this position. He did not put the gradual against the instantaneous; he combined both ideas. Most people disagree with a strawman argument that has little resemblance to Wesley‘s actual position.
Ify Divine Nsoha
Daniel Blaylock it doesn’t help that that’s what most wesleyans tell you he believes tho ?
Ify Divine Nsoha
But that’s fair
Daniel Rushing
Troy Day Here it is. From his book “Experiences in Pentecost,” pages 315-326. Based on COG reporting.
Varnel Watson
is this true? Ed Brewer David Lewayne Porter
David Lewayne Porter
That would not surprise me.
2004 was around the time that the CoG had a renewed thrust to revisit the roots of Pentecost and Holy Spirit baptism with accompanying fruit and gift manifestations.
Varnel Watson
What would be the current status 15 yrs later?
Dan Irving
The Pentecostal denominations stand divided on this question. I think each side has a piece, but neither has the whole.
Daniel Blaylock
Our sound bytes about such heavy theological issues do no justice to the difficulty or weightiness of these topics.
Varnel Watson
If I can only turn my silent digital sound bites to sanity bites of theology proper I’ve done my part
Varnel Watson
Dan What Pentecostal denominations stand divided on that issue in particular ? It’s more of non-Pentecostal charismatics and wanna be pentecostal that split hairs Brody Pope Steve Phifer
Steve Phifer
Many younger A/G ministers question initial evidence but do so privately. Part of the problem is that initial evidence is a modern question asked of an ancient truth. Modern thought wants linear, cause and effect, doctrine which are foreign to the ancient world or to the world of spiritual things. Post moderns are not laden with this type of thinking, so they can embrace prayer in the Spirit without the “evidence” thinking.
Varnel Watson
Its a sad sad day in our AG http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/what-hinders-our-aog-of-having-revival-today/
Steve Phifer
If I understand my grandfather’s generation they experienced 20th Century Pentecost because of their hunger for God. I think this is still the cure and the secret of a 21st Century Pentecost. We must remember that God has promised an outpouring in the Last Days. Perhaps a Postmodern Pentecostalism will encourage prayer in the Spirit and not throw up a language barrier. Hungry souls all through the church are discovering prayer in the Spirit; this is not the time for us to lose it.
Scotty Searan
If we are truly hungry for more of God as we are for fulfilling the hunger for natural appetites; We will do what is necessary to get more.
If not we will continue down the path malnutrition.
Louise Cummings
Amen.
Varnel Watson
hunger for God – hear hear Brody Pope
Christopher Noel Boggess
That is shocking
Varnel Watson
? <= shocked
Christopher Noel Boggess
Im a penecostal holy roller set on fire tongue prayer
Varnel Watson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K5jPy0b0Qk
Anonymous
Loved this.
Varnel Watson
Ify Divine Nsoha Consider this:
That Entire Sanctification is a definite act of God’s grace, subsequent to the New Birth, by which the believer’s heart is purified and made holy. It cannot be attained progressively by works, struggle or suppression, but it is obtained by faith in the sanctifying blood of Jesus Christ. Holiness of life and purity of heart are central to Christian living – Luke 1:74,75; John 17:15-17; I Thessalonians 4:3,7,8; 5:22-24; Ephesians 5:25-27; Hebrews 2:11; 10:10,14; 13:11,12; Titus 2:11-14; I John 1:7; Hebrews 12:14; I Peter 1:14-16.
Sanctification is an instantaneous experience given to a believer to enable him cleave to God without the tendency to want to go astray or go away from the Lord. It is not a protracted or tedious process of growth. You do not grow INTO sanctification, but you can grow IN sanctification. We can never grow into what God must of necessity do for us. Again, sanctification is not brought about by death: to assume that is to say that death is no longer our last enemy to be destroyed (I Corinthians 15:26). Neither are we cleansed from the original stain (the nature we brought into the world) through Water Baptism. Entire sanctification is not of works, but it is the work of God, divinely wrought by the Holy Spirit. http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/entire-sanctification-we-cannot-grow-into-sanctification-but-we-can-grow-in-sanctification/
Varnel Watson
Melvin Harter This is the discussion here
Varnel Watson
no the dont
Les Snowden
Speaking in tongues is only one of the gifts of the Holy spirit we don’t all get the same thing
Chris Westerman
There is one gift of holy spirit and we all have nine ways to manifest it.
Chris Westerman
I did not see 10 hard questions.
Ray E Horton
That’s because many Pentecostals, like all Christians, are what they are in name only. If there is to be blame,it likely goes to backsliden pastors/church leaders, who don’t promote tongues or the other spiritual gifts, even though that’s our primary distinctive. It interferes with their control. The biggest church growth that we see is among Charismatics who remain on fire for the Lord, making good use of the gifts.
James Michael Sanders
Ray E Horton someone told me recently of a Pentecostal fellowship near me that tells their people don’t use the gifts during service. That it may cause confusion…
This is what many have Become in “some” American churches. Afraid of appearing weird, or causing confusion, or offending men, yet no concern that they are quenching the Spirit of God and basically asking Him to stay outside while they have church. ?
Ray E Horton
James Michael Sanders So sad!
Joe Absher
Yes it is . a young recently came to one of our services and was baptised in the holy ghost with the evidence . he said he has been going to an AofG church 2 years and never heard anyone speak in tongues . tongues is a controversy but an important part of our pentecostal experience
Ray E Horton
Joe Absher Yes, a key distinctive that really shouldn’t be controversial, at least among Pentecostals. It is a compromise of the truth that we have been entrusted with.
James Michael Sanders
Not to be a jerk or argumentative. But I always wonder why we use these type percentages. I’ve served the Lord for 25 yrs an I or no one I know who serves has ever been asked these type questions or taken these surveys. So how can we say honestly that only 40% speak in tongues?
Well I do, and some in our church does. I guess the numbers need to change a bit ?
Ray E Horton
?
Varnel Watson
James Michael Sanders for a very simple reason When you say you are republican but you vote democrat 51% of the times you are a democrat. When you say you are Pentecostal but 51% dont speak in tongues well then you are a good ol Baptist
Isara Mo
Not surprised.
That is like saying 40 percent of New York do no hold a valid driving license..
To me a Pentecostal who doesn’t speak in tongues is like a driver without a valid driving license..
Varnel Watson
so Isara Mo you see the baptism as license ? to sin?
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Wrong interpretation.
Don’t put words in my mouth(I have already a mouthful)..
Daniel J Hesse
Do all speak with tongues? I show you a more excellent way.
Pastor Rodney A Jackson
Daniel J Hesse is the more excellent way void of tongues or a fulfillment of tongues?
Daniel J Hesse
Pastor Rodney A Jackson the latter. The God who is love provides every good and perfect gift within His good will.
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse the more excellent way of PAUL is to speak in tongues and practice ALL the gifts with it
Varnel Watson
Daniel J Hesse that line of thinking is quite cessational and not Pentecostal at all
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
How can you be Pentecostal without tongues? It would make you a charismatic or well…. never mind
Ray E Horton
Michael Ellis Carter Jr. I’ve found that Charismatics have typically been more faithful to tongues than classical Pentecostals.
Varnel Watson
Ray E Horton you are kidding right? It is mainly charismaics that have implied tongues are of NO need EVEN when those sames charismatics operate the GIFT of tongues but do not believe the initial evidence
Rejecting tongues as initial evidence IS the VERY difference between Pentecostals and charismatics along with reformed theology in some cases JUST see what is happening with the Canadian AG or ask Peter Vandever about Pensacola
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Pentecost is a word I can find in the Bible.. So I have no problem with Pentecostal..
Is there a world like Charisma.. Plse show me verse so that I can understand the word Charismatic..
If someone for reasons known to himself chooses to have a face lift will I identify him by his name or his face lift?
Such to me is the position of a Pentecostal and a Charismatic..
If a Charismatic doesn’t speak it wouldn’t bother me..
But a Pentecostal?
Biblical incidences of “early Pentecostals” (let me call them THAT) show tongues was part and parcel of the believers connection to the supernatural..
It is is plainly said in 1 Cor 14 that he who speaks in a tongue doesn’t speak with men but with GOD..
Let’s not try to fit scripture to our theologies but rather let’s our theologies fit to the Scriptures.
You can’t force a shoe into a foot nor can you force a foot into a shoe.
The size of the foot determines the size of the shoe not vice versa..
So it is with scripture..
Let’s not our intelligences dictate what the scripture should follow but let our intelligences follow the scripture..
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo YES there is a word like Charisma
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Show me..
Ray E Horton
Troy Day Our experiences must be quite different. Every charismatic church I have been involved of or have knowledge of in my area very much encourages tongues. Whether tongues is THE initial evidence or AN initial evidence is a moot point for me with theological discussion irrelevant from my personal experience. The day I was Baptized in the Spirit in December 1973, I prophesied and had other obvious evidences of what happened. But, having never heard of tongues, I wasn’t open to that for several weeks and got some teaching on the matter. Then my prayer language flowed fluently. Now, I do agree that for many, if not most, tongues is the initial evidence.
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Charisma is the quality of being able to attract, charm and influence those around you. //
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Lest I have judged wrongly can you plse give me a verse or incident in the Bible with the word Charisma?
Varnel Watson
we NEED the HOLY GHOST !
Varnel Watson
oh brother Michael Ellis Carter Jr. dont get me started
Daniel J Hesse
Concur especially prophecy
Only a few words too-intelligible ones.
Anonymous
Biblical tongues ceased in the first century.
II Tim. 2:15
Anonymous
They aren’t really Pentecostal then, are they?