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| PentecostalTheology.com
David K. Hebert, Master of Arts in Theological and Historical Studies
The Rapture of the Church: A Doctrine of the Early Church or a Recent Development of
the Dispensational Movement?
Larry Hart, Ph.D.
This thesis investigated whether the doctrine of the premillennial, pretribulation
Rapture of the Church, as a separate event from Jesus’ second coming, originated in the
early Church or with the Dispensational Movement around 1830. Although the term
“rapture” does not itself appear in Scripture, it comes from the Latin words, rapere and
rapiemur and from the Greek word harpazo (which does appear in the New Testament).
The New Testament text supports the concept of a Rapture of the Church, as well as
being confirmed by the raptures of Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. There are related terms in the
New Testament that have been addressed, the foremost being parousia. There are also
related non-scriptural, theological terms that were defined, the foremost being
eschatology, premillennialism, pretribulationalism and imminence. The writings of the
Ante-Nicene Fathers were examined to see if they address any of these terms. Subsequent
historical church writings were also reviewed to uncover any mention of the Rapture.
Many modern day theologians posit that the beginning of the teaching of the
Rapture, as a belief within the traditional orthodox Church, did not occur until around the
year 1830 Even most of them admit that the Church Fathers were
premillennialists (believing in a literal interpretation of the Book of Revelation,6 with its
view of a Tribulation, an Antichrist, and Jesus establishing an earthly kingdom for a
thousand years, Millennium, from the Latin words milus, meaning thousand and annum,
meaning years, after His Second Coming).
The Greek word episunagoge is mentioned as the eschatological gathering of the
faithful to Christ by: Dionysius Alexandrinus (d. 264) in Eusebius’ historia
ecclessiasticae.7.24.5, Eusebius (d. 399), himself, in his demonstratio evangelica.2.3, and
Cyrillus Alexandrinus (d. 444) in his commentarius in John.3.4.
20 Metatithemi (to
translate persons) is used to address rapture by: Clement of Rome (1st cent.), to describe
Enoch’s rapture in his First Epistle to the Corinthians.9.3; Irenaeus (d. 202), who says,
“Enoch was translated, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just and
that those who were translated into Paradise, as a prelude to immortality will remain there
until the completion of the age,” in his Against Heresies.5.5.1; Methodius (d. 311) in his
de resurrectione mortuorum.3.5, and Hippolytus Thebanus (8th cent.) in his
fragmenta.8c5 (both said that a Christian’s immortality was to begin when their body was
translated like Enoch’s); and finally, Eusebius spoke of God figuratively translating
Christians at the end of the age in his preparatio evangelica.7.8
The word ekpheugo is used to mean escape, especially avoidance of eternal
punishment, by Ignatius of Antioch (d. 110) in his Epistle of Trallianeos.2.1 and Justin
Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho.138.3 and First Apology.68.2.
24 Apostasia is used as
meaning departure by the apocryphal apocalyptic book of Domitio Mariae. Apostasis is
used to mean departure by Clement of Alexandria in his stromateis.4.22.
25 The Greek
words relating to rapture not used at all by the Fathers are: epairo, poreuomai, allasso,
and sozo.
As can be seen from the above citations, the Fathers had an understanding of the
concept of rapture, referred to the Old Testament raptures of Enoch and Elijah and the
New Testament raptures of Paul, John, and Jesus, and even made eight specific
references to the rapture of Christians
The first direct reference to the Rapture (as the Church escaping the Great
Tribulation) is found in the early second century apocalyptic writing of the Shepherd of
Hermas. In the fourth vision, chapter 1, he says, [emphasis added] “I saw another vision,
brethren-a representation of the tribulation that is to come.” Then in chapter 2, he says,
“lo! a virgin meets me, adorned as if she were proceeding from the bridal chamber” and
“I knew from my former visions that this was the Church,” and then, “You have escaped
from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the
presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds,
and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye
prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible
for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days
of your life in the serving the Lord blamelessly.”31 Notice also, the statement that to
escape the tribulation the Church must keep a “pure and spotless” heart. This is the same
language used in 2 Peter 3:14, speaking of the Rapture of the Church.
The next reference is found in The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (The
Didache), written in the mid-second century, and with the help of the footnotes paints a
clear picture of the chronology of events of the End Times (Rapture, Antichrist,
Tribulation, Second Coming). In chapter 16, verses 3-8, it says [emphasis added],
For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the
sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when
lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and
then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do
iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then
shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to
stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from
under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of
an outspreading of heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the
third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall
come and all his saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon
the clouds of heaven.
32
Notice, the context is the Last Days and the quote starts out with the signs of the times,
coinciding with Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Next, the appearance of the
antichrist and the Tribulation are addressed. Then, there comes the exclusionary “but,”
they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. The footnote in
the text after this statement says, “from under the curse itself; namely, that which has just
been described.”33 This is a direct reference to the Church being saved from the
Tribulation.
Clement of Rome (30-100) spoke about the Rapture in his First Epistle to the
Corinthians. Following the logical flow of his teaching from chapter to chapter yields the
result of a Pretribulation Rapture of the Church. As Irenaeus did, Clement first gives
Enoch as an example and then mentions the Lord delivering Noah (chap. 9). He also
mentions the Lord saving Lot (chap. 11) and Rahab (chap. 12). Then, he speaks
specifically to the Church in chapter 23, [emphasis added] “Compare yourselves to a tree:
take [for instance] the vine. First of all, it sheds its leaves, then it buds, next if puts forth
leaves, and then it flowers; after that comes the sour grape, and then follows the ripened
fruit. . . . Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture
also bears witness, saying, ‘Speedily will He come, and will not tarry;’ and, ‘The Lord
shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look.”44 And
following directly after this in chapter 24
Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.2
Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.
He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.
This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:3
“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”
| Charles Page!,”I’d go to Cleveland and gather up the left behind luxury cars parked at Westmore, #COGHQ #NCCOG #COGST #AmywayU” |
| Brian Crisp,LOL. You must also be a former CoG minister. |
| Charles Page!,I heard TL Lowery make a comment similar to that at NCCOG He turned to the associate and told him when the rapture takes place he could have his car keys. |
| Brian Crisp,lol |
| Terry Wiles,No. I will still be an immanent returnist! |
| Carl Murphy,”One thing is for certain, you aren’t a fan of dictionaries.” |
| Alan SmithAlan ,easy |
| Carl Murphy,”I believe that we as Christians need to be very careful how were present ourselves and Christ to the world. Why give Satan the opportunity to say, look they can’t even spell, how can you trust anything else they do. We need to project our best. Why give ammunition to be mocked or worse the Word of God to be so?” |
| Alan SmithAlan ,”I say let the mocking come from the enemy not within the same camp. That’s all. I agree, that we should use spell-check or even pay attention to the spelling of words.” |
| Carl Murphy,Iron sharpens iron |
| Terry Wiles,”Sorry Carl. I should have made it a capital “”I””. Immanent as in Immanent God: Jeremiah 23:23-24; Colossians 1:17He is near and ever watching. He will manifest Himself at the proper time. He will be with us. He is in control. He will gather His followers to Himself. I could not turn away from Him. Where would I go if I tried.” |
| Wahyu,what??? who dares question pre-trib?? strong delusion? lol |
| Alan SmithAlan ,just a question. |
| Wahyu,I was joking |
| Alan SmithAlan ,yea yea…lol |
| James Armstrong,”I don’t care WHEN I’m raptured, I just care that I am.” |
| Tom Steele,”While I think that it doesn’t make a lot of sense to think that the rapture would happen any time but pre-tribulation, it certainly wouldn’t effect my faith any. First let’s talk why I think pre-trib is the most logical in a nutshell, because the Bible tells it will be an event that comes unexpected. If it happens mid-trib or post-trib we can be expecting it because the tribulation is just seven years long. We would know we’re in the tribulation so we would be expecting to be raptured no more than seven years. Anyway, that’s also why I can’t see betraying Christ if I had to endure the tribulation. That single even would prove without a doubt that Christ is returning. Why on earth would anyone denounce Christ that close to the end? That would be like running a marathon and stopping two feet from the white ribbon at the end and saying, “”Well, I had enough, I quit.”” Obviously this is a big subject, just wanted to give a very brief reply to it. None of the three accepted rapture theories has anything to do with salvation, so it’s kinda an irrelevant question anyway, but always good to compel people to stay faithful to Yeshua no matter what.” |
| Alan SmithAlan ,”I understand your post and I think its easy to reason while we are living in luxury. However…if your power/food/water and basic needs were cut short. USA was being ravaged by ISIS, how many people would STAY THE COURSE? That’s my question.” |
| Tom Steele,”I know, and I agree that most would fall away. Especially those who have no working knowledge whatsoever on how to survive without modern technologies. I have been in the military and I grew up with many traditional outdoor activities like hunting, fishing, swimming, etc. I have a basic knowledge of wilderness survival and I could probably hold out for even as much as 7 years if I had to. But I do realize that not everyone has that. Your OP seemed to warrant a personal response more than an opinion on what the majority would do, so I answered in that manner.” |
| Alan SmithAlan ,Thanks for that response. |
| Tommy Schaefer,I think about that sometimes and I can honestly say no. |
| Wahyu,”Actually scripture says that day will not overtake us as a thief, only the world. The problem IMHO is people try and build the tribulation around the rapture when really the tribulation is about Israel. When does the rapture happen happen?? It’s really easy actually……. The last trumpet. Find the last trumpet and you’ll find the rapture” |
| Alan SmithAlan ,precisely |
| Ricky Grimsley,I think 2 thessalonians chapter 2 rules out pre trib. I dont see where imminence is taught in scripture. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”One of my favorite songs says this “”whether im the last one alive or ascend before my time, better im the last one alive than a soul denied””Demon Hunter.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJVS[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;What day is he talking about?The day of the lord or Christ as in verse 2. 2 Thessalonians 2:1 KJVS[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,Even if you believe that the rapture and the 2nd coming are separated by a large amount of time, he is “”beseeching”” by both of them. So neither can happen until that day which is he day of the lord and the day of the lord doesnt happen until after a great falling away and the son of perdition is revealed (antichrist).” |
| Ricky Grimsley,http://youtu.be/imSHBDt1xKM |
| Ricky Grimsley,I take it as an exhortation to be watchful. The closer we draw to the end the more deception there is. The more false doctrines there are. I have surely been deceived by man and by myself but I try to be on guard. |
| Ricky Grimsley,I have frequently. I do not take lightly that is not an orthodox view. I would describe my views in many things as evolving. This just fits best in my opinion. Smarter men than me disagree on all sides of every view that i have. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Yes the spirit guides us but none of has fully experienced “”all truth””. 1 Corinthians 13:12 KJVS[12] For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Well all means all the we can currently have. The holy spirit is notgoing to reveal to you the exact moment of the rapture. Your argument is illogical. We are not omniscient because we have the spirit. |
| Ricky Grimsley,He will lead us to heaven someday but only then will we know all truth. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”My brothers,God/The Holy Spirit will not – as long as we are on this earth in these bodies – reveal everything to one particular person. That is why we are a body, and members of that body. In the following verse we need each other for full understanding, (Ephesians 3:18May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 19And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, Note: if we need each other to realize all of God’s love, do we think we can have all knowledge? The Spirit (leading – guiding) us into all truth is a work in progress, why else would we need decerning of spirits (we would already know), it is guiding us – not a finished trip.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Amen dewayne |
| John B. Gaither,”I teach Pre-Trib in my Pentecostal Church. The people have a handle around that, and it’s understood by most Evangelicals. But I warn my people to be ready whenever Jesus is Ready. It does not matter what the Wall Chart, or Reference pages in the back of your Bible say. We need to live as if this were the day. Either by Rapture or Individual Departure.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,So John B. Gaither when you teach….what do you say about 2 thessalonians chapter 2. How does that not say that we will see the antichrist before the rapture. |
| Jeremy Lile,”I would not turn my back on God because man in all his wisdom still lacks so much when it comes to God and his plan for the world. Even the greatest theologians are baffled by the mysteries of God. Whatever happens, God will take care of us and protect us.” |
| John B. Gaither,”Ricky, I don’t doubt that if we truly are in the last days, that the Anti-Christ is now present in the World today. Not revealed yet. I compare to my folks how during the 2008 election Obama was practically worshipped in Europe that Summer, then the gathering at Grant Park and at the Inauguration. I told them he was not the AC, but the World would go crazier than that. So nothing is wrong with seeing the AC, but we will not know for sure. It’s the peace accord that he makes that starts the 7 years, then the breaking of it at 3.5 years. He can be revealed, and we in our Wisdom would not realize it. Those who in the old days said it was someone like Kissinger, can say that until he dies, since he is still kicking. At 92, he is really unlikely. People have always guessed. I remember the 80’s and Pope John Paul, and all the others. My Brothers in Christ, were not right in their guesses. We won’t know fully, until after the Rapture, and at that time he makes a pact with Satan. Satan does not when the Rapture is. He does know what 7 years means. In his anger will enter into the AC. Satan’s time will be short, is short. Can revealed mean that he is on the World Stage, but not full of the Spirit of the AntiChrist? I think yes.” |
| Terry Wiles,”Ricky Grimsley. I do appreciate this discussion but let me respectfully give a different view. 2 Thess. is a continuation of 1 Thess. If you look at 1 Thess. 5 verse 9 there is an argument given that we are not destined for “”wrath”” but to obtain salvation through Jesus Christ. They were suffering affliction that some were saying was the day of the Lord’s wrath. Paul tells them to encourage one another and build one another up. (v 11)In 2 Thess. Paul continues the them by telling them there is a day coming when God will bring vengeance up those who afflict them and upon those who do not obey the Lord. (2:5-10)In chapter 2 verses 1 and two there is a argument that they are not in the tribulation, that the day of the Lord has not come, that they have not missed the rapture. Here, “”the day of the Lord”” refers to God pouring out His wrath upon the world of sin. It will come upon all who refused to love the truth and be saved. But the Thess believers embraced the truth and will be saved (from the wrath) and obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. (2 Thess. 2:13-17)That is the way I understand it. I try to teach people to be ready to go as if it were today but be ready to serve God as it would be a lifetime away.All for souls.” |
| Timothy Carter,Why do you think people crave destruction? There are so many people running around screaming about the apocalypse and twisting God’s Word into destruction instead of God calling people back to His heart. |
| Wahyu,Can anyone who believe in pretrib explain how the ‘last trumpet’ is at the beginning of the tribulation even though there are at least 7 more that happen later? |
| Terry Wiles,The last trumpet sounds when Christ returns with His saints to plant his feet on the Mount of Olives and set up His earthly reign. This will happen after God pours out His wrath on a world that has rejected Him. Prior to that will be other trumpets including one that gathers His sons and daughters to himself. |
| Wahyu,”Ok, but the scripture plainly says we will be caught up ‘at the last trumpet ‘.” |
| Wahyu,”Thank you but I’ve heard all the teachings. Used to believe it. But how is it the “”last”” trumpet when there’s not one before that and there are many afterwards” |
| Wahyu,Not to mention the ‘last’ of the 7 trumpets is a declaration of people gathering to God…anybody see a common tread here? |
| Ricky Grimsley,If you look at the order of events and the cosmic signs you will see. |
| Wahyu,”I can read about all kinds of things, I prefer to believe all the answers are In the bible itself. Great so an angel giving a message is giving Gods word but blowing a trumpet isn’t Gods trumpet?? Sounds like reading the bible with a desired outcome to me.” |
| Wahyu,1 cor 15 says last |
| Wahyu,Ok. My question was how does rev. 4 constitute the last trumpet? Where’s the first? |
| Lawrence Bradford,Luke 21:36 |
| Lawrence Bradford,1Thess. 5:9 |
| Ricky Grimsley,Rev 4 doesnt even have a real trumpet in it. Only a comparison to one. |
| Lawrence Bradford,Rev. 6:16-17 |
| Lawrence Bradford,”Escape all, not appointed to wrath, God’s wrath starts when?” |
| Wahyu,In my opinion mid way when dragon attacks israel. Then vials poured out |
| Lawrence Bradford,”The seals starts in Rev. 6 and verses 16, 17 tells about the Wrath” |
| Wahyu,That is a proclamation of men who are afraid but the end of rev 11 says his wrath has come (after the 3 woes) |
| Lawrence Bradford,And it begin at the end rev 6 |
| Wahyu,And I believe 1 thess. 5:9 is talking about dam nation not a time period in tribulatuon. …but to obtain salvation. |
| Wahyu,So where’s the last trumpet? |
| Lawrence Bradford,”Revelation 6:16-17 (KJV) 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” |
| Lawrence Bradford,The last Trumpet is the trumpet being blow at the time of the Rapture…. not the last trumpet that is going to be blow |
| Wahyu,What? Please explain |
| Lawrence Bradford,When the rapture takes place there will be a blowing of the trumpet to announce the Lord coming and getting us and another blowing to call us up and that is what is called the last trump. |
| Lawrence Bradford,One thing for sure my Brothers we will know for sure one day. And from the looks of things very close. |
| Wahyu,No doubt |
| John B. Gaither,”I take Last Days and Last Trumpet as a period of time, not necessarily a specific second of time. Who would argue against that we have been in the Last Days since the Ascension, or during the times of the Gentiles, the Church Age, but yet know the Last Days being after the Rapture as well. When you talk about Last Trumpet in the First Century, then 7 years can be held together, without specifing every trumpet that will take place.” |
| Wahyu,Can you please show me that in scripture |
| Lawrence Bradford,”1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV) 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (Here is the first)” |
| Lawrence Bradford,”1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (KJV) 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (Last trump)” |
| Lawrence Bradford,”1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 (KJV) 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. so we see here in verse there is a trump when Jesus comes and we see we are caught up at the last trump 1Cor. 15:51-51″ |
| Alan SmithAlan ,”John Conger the last trump is the final trump that is sounded on Rosh Hashanah. Jewish history, Brother. It doesn’t matter what others preach, say, or write about BUT the truth is found in Jewish history.” |
| John B. Gaither,”Give me some time, but will continue that line of thinking.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,My concern is mostly that people will be deceived or lose hope because they thought would be raptured. I have studied alot about what evil plans are out there. Most of the church is oblivious to the actual plans the devil has. My people perish for lack of knowledge. |
| Ricky Grimsley,I thought the truth was found in the bible? |
| Alan SmithAlan ,You see the problem is the lack of understanding in Jewish history and HIS coming Kingdom. Study these things with an open mind and you will find truth. |
| Wahyu,So you’re saying q these 4:16 is declaring 2 trumpets correct? |
| Wahyu,1 thess… Stupid phone |
| Lawrence Bradford,”In 1thess it declares Jesus’ coming in 1cor.15 it says the last trump, showing when we that are live are caught up” |
| Wahyu,I’m confused. So are you saying Jesus comes back first with a trumpet and then the rapture happens with another trumpet and these are seperate events? |
| Wahyu,So dead and living are raptures at 2 different times. Please elaborate I really am trying to understand |
| Lawrence Bradford,same events just two blowing of the trumpet |
| Wahyu,Ok |
| Lawrence Bradford,”hope I haven’t confuse you, it is much easier to explain face to face, I don’t know if you see it this way or not. But brother I sense in you a deep desire to know the truth, and that is so refreshing for a change. May God bless you” |
| Lawrence Bradford,the dead are raised first then we are caught up together |
| Wahyu,I understand what youre saying now. |
| Wahyu,You too brother |
| John B. Gaither,”Please forgive, but it sounds like we need the simple Pre-Trib explanation. There is the Rapture. One act where Jesus Appears in the Clouds. I Thes 4, The angel will sound the Trumpet. At that time the dead in Christ will raise, and those who are on Earth will rise together to meet Him in the air. That will occur at the beginning of the 7 years Tribulation. At the end of the Tribulation will be the Second Coming of Christ upon a white horse to the earth. Rev 19. We, the Saints will be with Him. This is when the Battle if Armageddon takes place. This will usher in the 1,000 year Reign of King Jesus, Rev 20.” |
| John B. Gaither,”Of course the discussion was originally if it did not happen that way, would I loose faith in Jesus. The better question is would Mid or Post guys refuse to go when the Angel Blows the Trumpet for the Rapture too early for them, so they can suffer.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,There is no scripture that places the rapture before the tribulation. |
| Terry Wiles,1 Thessalonians 4 through 2 Thessalonians 2 establishes the sequence. |
| Ricky Grimsley,Please expound. |
| Terry Wiles,Already did. Read up on previous posts. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Reading it like that only proves how i believe not pretrib. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 KJVS[6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, [8] In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:” |
| Ricky Grimsley,That only puts the rapture before gods wrath which is what i believe. The wrath of god is at the end of the tribulation. |
| Ricky Grimsley,After the 7 years starts. |
| Terry Wiles,Have it your way |
| Wahyu,I still can’t place the last trumpet at the beginning of the tribulation unless you contort the meaning of ‘last’. And then it seems to me that is just trying to make it fit you already believe |
| Revcj Lester,Rev 3:10 |
| Wahyu,Not sure I can count high enough to count all the different interpretations of that. Most believe that was a church time that’s already pasted. |
| Alan SmithAlan ,”Ricky Grimsley where do you see the rapture, in correlation to the events of the tribulation?” |
| Ricky Grimsley, |
| Revcj Lester,”It is important to recognize that when Jesus returns to set up His Kingdom there is NO Rapture, i.e., no one is caught up into the air to be with the Lord. People who become Christians during the Tribulation Period will enter with their earthly bodies into the Millennium. Proof of this is found in Isaiah 65:20-25, and in Zechariah 8:5 where children are mentioned playing during the Millennium. Those saved during the Tribulation will enter physically into the Millennial Kingdom. Where will these humans come from if the saints are ALL raptured and changed at the END of the Tribulation, i.e., a Postribulation Rapture? Obviously this cannot be. The only logical conclusion is a Pretribulation Rapture!” |
| Ricky Grimsley,So where is the scripture that says pretrib rapture again? |
| Revcj Lester,”“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.†–1 Thessalonians 4:17″ |
| Ricky Grimsley,Cmon really how does that prove pretrib? |
| Revcj Lester,”Also take a look at Jude 1:14 it says, “”And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints.”” The Lord will return with tens-of-thousands of His saints at the Second Coming. This event occurs 7-years AFTER the Rapture of the Saints. In order for us to return WITH the Lord, we have to first be WITH the Lord. This is further evidence of a Pretribulation Rapture.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,No it isnt. It only proves we rise to meet him in the air as he comes down. |
| Ricky Grimsley,How come when the disciples ask jesus what are the signs if his return he doesnt mention any signs that occur before the rapture (if you are pretrib). You guys make the bible way more complicated that it has to be. No one even believed in a pretrib rapture 150 years ago. |
| Revcj Lester,”The Bible does teach the doctrine of the PRE-tribulation Rapture. It is NOT a new teaching as some people may believe. Before the Bible was completed in A.D.96, the teaching of the Pre-tribulation Rapture was already contained in the Bible, in 1st Thessalonians 4:17. The Biblical doctrine of the Pre-tribulation Rapture has been with us for the past 2,000 years.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,There is no order of events in Thessalonians to prove the rapture happens pretrib. What does 2 Thessalonians chapter 2 mean. How come there is no rapture mention in matthew 24 like 21 mark 13 or rev 6? I |
| Revcj Lester,”Apparently you can’t understand the Bible look at Matthew 24:40-41 says, “”Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken, and one will be left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.””” |
| Revcj Lester,Do you need me to explain Matthew 24:40-41 I will…… |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Thats pretty condescending for a person with ridiculous argument c j lester since the people “”taken”” in that passage has a negative connotation. Noah was left and the bad people were “”taken”” not raptured. Where are the people taken….not to heaven but where the carcass is where the birds gather. Doesnt sound like rapture.” |
| Revcj Lester,Noah wasn’t left he was saved from the destruction of the earth just like when the rapture happens we the church will be save from the tribulation that will happen on the earty. |
| Ricky Grimsley,Based on what scripture? What scripture says the rapture happens before the 70th week of daniel? None. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Show me the rapture in any sequence of events list. Like matthew 24, etc.” |
| Lawrence Bradford,”Matt. 24 is dealing with Israel God chosen people, not the Church.. so there is no mention of the Rapture in that Chapter of the Bible.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Thats just ideology not fact. |
| Ricky Grimsley,What proof do you have for believing that? Which part of the bible was written to the americans? Hebrews…oh wait thess……oh wait maybe romans…..? Oh thats right none. |
| Ricky Grimsley,I dont see how that is proof. That just another sign. |
| Revcj Lester,”I can hear Paul thinking to himself… how could my diciples have been so easily misled, decived and troubled that they missed the rapture? And by a mere letter? It’s a world-wide gospel-promoting supernatural event that no person could miss who was looking forward to it! They know it includes people rising from the dead, the last trump, and all the rest. I told them that in my first letter to them in Chapter 4, in fact, it was the only doctrinal teaching in my entire letter! Sheesh! I’d better make another journey back to Thessalonia to set these guys straight and reassure them, just in case my letter doesn’t do it!” |
| Revcj Lester,”Obviously, the Post Tribulationists are afraid of the Rapture, because this is the only way that that verse makes any sense. Yes, fear of the Lord is a good thing, but you should not let it affect your theology to the point where you are praying for the Lord to not come until after 7 years of tribulation!…. Also, being a post tribulationist, if you disbelieve Christ’s ability to cleanse you of sin, and believe you need further cleansing through tribulation, being a post trib believer, there is plenty of extra time to repent, 7 years, and/or simply stand up for Christ and accept a beheading to achieve “”trib saint status””, which may give one a full licence to sin all they want until that time, since the imminency of the rapture, which comes first, is removed. Perhaps the post tribulationists feel they deserve punishment for their sins, because they have a hard time accepting the free gift of through Christ. I’m speculating that IF the post tribulationists really want to go through the tribulation, Christ may let them. After all, one may be able to disobey when the trumpet call goes out to “”Come up here!””” |
| Revcj Lester,”These are the verses I’m talking about [2Thess 2:1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,(they say this is the rapture, correctly, but then say the next verse “”day of Christ”” refers to the rapture as well.)[2Thess 2:2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”The “”day of the lord”” does start with the rapture.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,2 Thessalonians was written to clear up false doctrine. They obviously thought they were in the tribulation already. I dont reject pretrib so i can sin…..i could die tonight. There is no scripture or passage of scriptures that place the rapture before the 70th week of Daniel. |
| Ricky Grimsley,Where does anyone get the authority to say that matthew 24 is only to jews btw? |
| Alan SmithAlan ,Who says that? |
| Ricky Grimsley,Basically everyone that is pretrib. |
| John B. Gaither,”If Post, I understand your confusion. Why be Raptured up, just to Come back down.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Who is post? |
| John B. Gaither,The thread we are replying to. |
| Alan SmithAlan ,I started this thread. John why can’t you just answer the question.Saying for those mid or post..will they refuse to go pre trib? ANDWhy go up to come back down?Sounds like you want to stay. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Pre tribbers have a lot of passion. Most won’t even discuss the possibility they are wrong. Basic bible discussion is like blasphemy. All the can do is quote 1 thessalonians 4 16 and say matthew 24 is for the jews and repeat “”jesus wouldnt beat up his bride”” or we arenrt appointed to wrath”” like a mantra.” |
| Wahyu,”You mean people are supposed to question their own beliefs like where the bible says to “”prove all things””? That’s crazy talk” |
| John B. Gaither,”I going when Jesus calls. Whether I died, or by Miraculous means. Any time my work on Earth is done.” |
| John B. Gaither,”I used to be in the Foursquare Church before I joined PH. In Foursquare they just hold to an imminent premillennial return of Jesus, and don’t get stuck fighting about it. I would think most teach Pre-Trib Rapture as do I.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,So teach it to us? Where are the scriptures that say pretrib? |
| Lawrence Bradford,Luke 21:36 |
| Lawrence Bradford,Escape All |
| Ricky Grimsley,Wow thats real theological |
| Lawrence Bradford,”Plain and simple, read the verses before it and see Jesus is talking about the tribulation, and then He says escape all …. pre tri for dummies” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Most of luke as been misinterpreted to be the end time but is actually about 70 ad. Notice that after the false christ, war, famine death, persecution passage mirroring matthew, verse 12 says “”but before these things”” where as matthew continues in order. Matthew 24 and luke 21 have many similarities but if you notice they are two different events in separate places. Luke is to a larger group and matthew 24 is just to a small group of disciples. Matthew 24:3 KJVS[3] And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?Luke 21 was inside the temple.” |
| Lawrence Bradford,Well believe what you want brother as I will do the same. God Bless |
| Ricky Grimsley,Its not about belief. Its so plain just overlooked. Just compare matthew 24 and luke 21 one more time. Then add mark 13 and mark tells you who is at the private meeting of matthew. |
| John B. Gaither,”Ricky, Let me be the first to say whatever is presented to you, you will refuse to see, it’s not enough for you to want to change. If all you need is to prop yourself up to know you are right. I cannot do for you. Do you Study to show yourself approved. You continue to overlook the scripture references above that Pre-Trib use, so the only proof can only come from God, not man. We have to agree to be Brothers, and know the Bible is true, we just see it different. Are you a Pastor? If you are what do your people say. If you are in a church, does your Pastor listen to you? Please do not take this as a Flame. You may be eloquent, but what pleases God. I already said Jesus can and will do what He wants. He is the Righteous Judge, not me. Pre-Trib answers my question, and I can move on in peace. I am not a Bean counter. I do work our my Salvation in fear and trembling. Being Pre-Trib will not send us to Hell. But if all you live for is to debunk teaching, and divide the sheep??? Do you believe in Jesus return? I do. Do you believe in the 1000 year reign if Christ? I do. Do you believe in the Judgment Seat of Christ? I do. Do you believe in Heaven and Hell? I do. What is more important in all that. A possible 7 year period, or Eternity with Jesus. Jesus said He would return – that is a big deal. Our guessing is not. If I said Jesus was only going to come back one way, and He revealed it only to me, you would have doubts, as you should. Pre-Trib does not answer your question/concerns. Fine. It answers mine, and I see it in I Thes 4, and I can sleep in peace tonight with that. Jesus or Paul are not liars. We can miss it all. The best minds at His first coming missed parts. Others did not understand His death. I don’t have to be right to go to Heaven. My heart tells me do not hurt His Lambs as I teach. I am knowledgeable in Pre-Trib. And that is good enough. Other views don’t make sense to me. I understand Windows, my little brother Mac. We pick on each other. But we disagree. Love you man.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,I have not seen any theories referred to by those designations. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Thats not a fair statement. My believes have been modified quite a bit in my adult life. Look at it logically, “”hey jesus. What are the signs of your coming and the end of the age?”” No sequence of events listed in the bible start with a rapture. Any gatherings are mentioned closer to the end. I dont see how you can dispute that.” |
| John B. Gaither,”Ricky, What do you believe? 1) Do you believe that there will be 7 years Tribulation? 2) Do you believe in a 2nd Coming. 3) Are you Mid or Post?” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”I am what is called “”prewrath””. I believe that the 70th week of daniel begins with a treaty made by the Antichrist and his 10nation coalition with “”many”” probably israel. I believe matthew 24, luke21, mark13, and revelation 6 follow the same sequence (false christs, war, famine, death. I believe that the “”restrainer”” of lawlessness in 2 thess 2 is michael the archangel and i believe that 2 Thessalonians 2 proves that gathering and the day of the lord cant happen until a great falling away and the antichrist being revealed (which i believe happens at the midpoint the abomination of desolation). I believe that after that the antichrist makes war on the saints for a time until the 144000 are raptured along with everyone else who is saved. Then god pours out his wrath.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,I would love for anyone to take the time to listen to this and give feedback. |
| Ricky Grimsley,http://youtu.be/JV2txxxdVEQ |
| Ricky Grimsley,”He isnt more angry. Psalm 7:11 KJVS[11] God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.He is just fulfilling his word. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-7 KJVS[6] Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; [7] And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”What translation do you read. Psalm 94:1 KJVS[1] O Lord God, to whom vengeance belongeth; O God, to whom vengeance belongeth, shew thyself.I lost count of how many scriptures showing god taking revenge” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Here the saints are crying out for it in heaven. Revelation 6:10-11 KJVS[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were , should be fulfilled.” |
| John B. Gaither,”Alan, go up and come back down is how I see Post Trib. If I Thes 4 is a Rapture. And if it happened at one time going up and coming back down for Second Coming Rev 19. Maybe the big question is when is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. Is it after the Rapture and before 2nd Coming. I believe so. Jesus Raptures us, carries us to Heaven, prepares us for 2nd Coming, and more so for Millennial Reign of Christ on Earth. So the 7 years for Christians is preparation to come back. I don’t hold out for not ever suffering, or pain on Earth. The martyrdom of Christian’s for 2,000 years proves that. I am the Clay. He is the Potter. All I can ask is for Him to use me. We all have our trite jokes to explain away other’s End Times Points of View. Going up and coming back down is one of mine.” |
| John B. Gaither,Pre-Trib believe that there is nothing stopping the end times from beginning. No other particular prophecy has to be fulfilled for Jesus to return. Nothing has to be done before the Rapture can take place. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”The proper term for my view is called “”pre-wrath””.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Probably more like 3/4. In the my view there does become a time where the return of jesus is imminent but the actual 7 year time is shortened due to the scripture that says “”unless those days were shortened”” and that time will be returned to the devil after the millennial reign to be the short season he tempts the nations again.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,I dont think so. |
| Ricky Grimsley,http://youtu.be/JV2txxxdVEQ |
| Miro Atanasov,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rY48fIzD_Fg |
| Ricky Grimsley,No amount of arguing can get you out of get away from 2 Thessalonians. Pretrib is blindness. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”1. We arent the bride. In every parable we are the guests, and obviously the bride is the new jerusalem. 2. If you believe that matthew 24 is only to jews you have a huge problem. There are no scriptures that support pretrib rapture.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”I believe you fail to understandRevelation and New Jerusalem. You are correct in that New Jerusalem is the Bride. But you mis-understand New Jerusalem in that New Jerusalem is the Church, Believers.ExamineRevelation of John 3:12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. They are the clothing the New Jerusalem (note the verses with ***)Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;*** 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,*** 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.Now in case you say we are the body he states to finish this section31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.*** 32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.We are arrayed in the exact clothing of that city New Jerusalem (it’s clothing IS OUR Righteousness Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.*** 8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God).Marriage is designed to show the world the relationship between Jesus and His bride, us the redeemed. Revelation of John 21:14And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.We are what makes New Jerusalem that city what it is/will be.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Who is god married to? Isaiah 50:1 KJVS[1] Thus saith the Lord , Where is the bill of your mother’s divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.” |
| Megan Shaffer,2 Books for $24.95 #freeshippinghttps://PayPal.me/JudahMobile/24.95 |
| Megan Shaffer,You guys brought up some deep topics |
| Ricky Grimsley,Even dake was wrong sometimes. |
| Brian Fulthorp,Uh! how dare you!! j/k haha |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Why jump through all the hoops and just take the bible for what it says. We are the body, new jerusalem is the bride. All the wedding parables have us as the wedding part or guests. Never the bride. We are the sons of god. Etc.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Not according the 50 other bible scriptures. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”You guys do realize John could not be sure of what he saw concerning that city and her actual makeup correct? He saw in part, in figures, not completely. And what he did see and understand he could not communicate to where we could fully and clearly understand and comprehend it.1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. Now to be fair and true to the text, yes we can understand with the Mind of The Spirit of God. But are we listening to that Spirit or trying to figure it out on our own?Especially when we have to reference commentators – commentators whose notes are human and not Devine.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Truth, revealing of Jesus through/given to John his faithful servant.” |
| Lawrence Bradford,Why I believe in Pre Tri. |
| Lawrence Bradford,”Why I believe in Pre Tri……. THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCHWe mean by the rapture of the church the catching up of all true believers in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. This event is simply and clearly predicted in 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58; Phil. 3:20, 21; John 14:1-3; Luke 21:34-36; Col. 3:4 and other passages we shall give below.One reading of these passages will prove that there is to be such an event as the lord descending from Heaven to take out of the world, in a moment of time, all the dead and living in Christ. In fact, it would be hard to understand how even one person could fail to understand such a doctrine if he will be honest and believe what is plainly written in these passages. For example, 1 Thess. 4:16, 17 says, “”For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: . . . Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”” In view of such plain language a person would have to arbitrarily deny what is written, or else believe that this event will happen just as it is plainly stated here. Surely there is no room for misunderstanding, so it is obvious that if one does not believe in the rapture it is because he does not believe the Bible.The rapture of the church is called “”the coming of the Lord”” but never the second coming of Christ. At the rapture Christ does not appear visibly to those on the Earth but He” |
| Lawrence Bradford,”Why I believe in Pre Tri……. THE RAPTURE OF THE Firebrand ChurchWe mean by the rapture of the church the catching up of all true believers in Christ to meet the Lord in the air. This event is simply and clearly predicted in 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58; Phil. 3:20, 21; John 14:1-3; Luke 21:34-36; Col. 3:4 and other passages we shall give below.One reading of these passages will prove that there is to be such an event as the lord descending from Heaven to take out of the world, in a moment of time, all the dead and living in Christ. In fact, it would be hard to understand how even one person could fail to understand such a doctrine if he will be honest and believe what is plainly written in these passages. For example, 1 Thess. 4:16, 17 says, “”For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: . . . Then we which are alive and remain SHALL BE CAUGHT UP together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”” In view of such plain language a person would have to arbitrarily deny what is written, or else believe that this event will happen just as it is plainly stated here. Surely there is no room for misunderstanding, so it is obvious that if one does not believe in the rapture it is because he does not believe the Bible.The rapture of the church is called “”the coming of the Lord”” but never the second coming of Christ. At the rapture Christ does not appear visibly to those on the Earth but He” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Yeah i see that you left out 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. |
| Ricky Grimsley,We all believe in a rapture. However no scriptures you mention put the rapture in a sequence of events that prove your point. |
| Lawrence Bradford,It is ok as I can see it clearly you don’t. We can look each other up when we get there and talk about this then. GOD BLESS |
| Ricky Grimsley,I hope im wrong. I have no desire to be in the tribulation. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”No one knows the day nor hourMatt 24:36, Matt 25:13, Mark 13:32There are 9 different rapture THEORIES, theories because no one knows for sure positively absolutely.Here in is a question (the question) that we all must ask and personally answer; Is there anything left to be fulfilled as a prophecy in Bible that has to precede the Church seeing it’s (rapture) sudden catching away?Truly, other than Him giving us more time for winning the lost, is there anything left that gives reason that it could not happen right now, today?That, we all must contemplate and deal with individually.For those that are not pre-trib(ist), and you are allowed your own personal belief – as long as you are ready for Heaven if you draw your last breath today – the parables say the Lord, the Master, the vineyard/land owner, the King comes back early (in a time that the unfaithful unprepared servants were not expecting). If we look for Him any day, we have an advantage over those that look for Him at a later time.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Well i feel that the temple has to be rebuilt and the covenant that re-establishes the jews temple worship has to happen. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 KJVS[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;And what day is that…..the day of the lord which includes his return and our gathering unto him. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 KJVS[1] Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [2] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come , except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Then you have time explain how the 70th week of Daniel begins for the nation of Isreal after the pause between the 69 and 70 (which is what you are referring to). It changes the thrust and emphasis from the Gentiles back to the Jews? It also depends on how you define, “”He that letteth will let”” 2 Thes 2:7 also verse 6. Then vs 8 AND THEN shall he be revealed.Who is HE that letteth?I believe our Comforter is (a) He (John 14:16, John 14:26, John 15:26)It also depends on the “”coming of the Lord”” and “”that day”” if you think he is taking about the rapture or His Second coming, (and there is a difference). It is the same way Jesus addressed three individual questions in Matt 24:3 and people try to combine the rapture and the second coming.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,I believe he that letteth is michael. I do not believe it can be the spirit for the spirit draws to salvation. |
| Ricky Grimsley,The day of the lord begins with rapture but encompasses the rest of the 7 years. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”I personally believe and teach as my opinion that He is the Holy Spirit, a mutual friend of mine (and of Spiros Zodhiates of AMG Publishers, American Missions to The Greeks) have discussed this in depth. The Holy Spirit can still be here and yet pull back His convicting power in order to fulfill this requirement. Remember Jesus told those following Him to the Cross down the Via Dolorosa to not weep for Him but to weep for themselves because “”if they do these things in the green tree, how about in the dry””. There is coming a day when the tangible presence of the Holy Spirit will be limited/restrained/pulled back to an extent.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”I believe that thought “”begins with””, “”but encompasses”” combines two separate thoughts just as most people do with Matt 24That’s my personal opinion.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Except matthew 24 begins with the tribulation. |
| Megan Shaffer,”If he doesn’t dwell in temples made of hand how are we to build a new temple. Doesn’t it say we are the temple. We the people of jacob. Once together we form the temple of God. Isn’t this why revelations says when he measured the temple is was the measurement of a man. This govt body is made up of 144,000 officials under christ.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Matt 24 starts with the tribulation,?, if you read it that way literally begins with the destruction of the temple.So then is it the tribulation (or birth pangs leading into it)?” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Well i mean verse 4 |
| David Lewayne Porter,I mean the entire chapter. |
| Ricky Grimsley,Matthew 24 and luke 21 are not the same. Luke takes place inside the temple and then matthew 24 and mark 13 are extensions of that conversation with the closest disciples. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Re-focus, come back to the statement you made, you said chapter 24 starts with the tribulation, so you believe it starts at the destruction of the temple?(I am following what you said).But let me take your leadLuke 21 v6 temple destruction Vs 12 synagogues – jews, Daniel’s 70th week.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,2 Thessalonians proves that the rapture doesn’t happen till the antichrist is revealed. He wont be revealed until he sets up his image in the temple and the midpoint of the tribulation. |
| Wahyu,144000 are the first fruits so how is anyone rapture before that? Can’t say they are the first fruit of the jews because early church were jews and would take part in the pretrib rapture. Saints and 144000 all raptured same time |
| Megan Shaffer,Read very carefully and slowly. Mt13:24-30 |
| Megan Shaffer,”He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, nay(no) lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. : and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers,, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn….. (now is the church raptured? Or the wicked?) Be not deceived.” |
| Megan Shaffer,”Now the 144,000 are just what it says. 12,000 from each tribe. Look for 12,000 mem to be speaking Gods word on the street dressed in biblical clothing keeping biblical holidays. The way you know their ppl suffered one of the curses mentioned in deuteronomy” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Dont get crazy john conger and try to bring logic are other points of view. Even though pretrib wasnt invented till the 1800s its the truth. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Sure would have made everything easier if jesus would have said in matthew 24.”” Lord what the signs of your comings (plural) and jesus answers “”don’t worry my disciple…..disregard all that i am about to say because im going to rapture you before it?””” |
| Lawrence Bradford,The Bible teaches a Pre – Tri Rapture – and another one Mid – Tri. To bad people can’t see both….. to busy protecting what they believe. |
| Ricky Grimsley,Perry stone? |
| Lawrence Bradford,Never listen to him |
| Miro Atanasov,Those of us Pre-Trib will wave all the others good bye when we go up. That message up there explains it all pretty well. Nothing else is biblical except Pre-Trip. None makes sense. |
| Alan SmithAlan ,really Miro?? |
| Lawrence Bradford,”To be in Christ is what it takes to get out of here, in the Rapture. Just let us all be ready Lord.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Actually what will happen will be people like me will crying out saying “”hey the antichrist is here get prepared”” and pretribbers will be saying “” no that cant be the antichrist he is a godly man of of peace. See how he has helps the jews? “”Oh that national id mark cant be the mark of the beast because jesus didnt rapture me yet.” |
| Lawrence Bradford,Brothers…. respect each other |
| Ricky Grimsley,Im not planning to go through the great tribulation. I will be raptured before god pours out his wrath. |
| Lawrence Bradford,Understand the last two verses Rev.6 talk about Gods wrath starting not only in chapter 11 |
| Ricky Grimsley,Right gods wrath starts with the sixth seal. The first part isnt the wrath of god its satan. Why would god explain all these signs to us if we werent going to be here. Revelation is practically irrelevant if you are pretrib. Except for the promised blessing for reading it. |
| Lawrence Bradford,True because it deals wit the Jewish people. |
| Ricky Grimsley,No it doesnt. |
| Ricky Grimsley,The first five seals are the antichrists and satans doings not god. Revelation 6:17 KJVS[17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Wrong,(First 5 seals – so satan is controlling Jesus as he breaks each seal?)All of Revelation is God’s doing by Him authoring the book, sealing it, controlling who it is given to inorder be opened. And then the timing of the opening. Let’s add to that God has to allow satan, the dragon, the false prophet, and the antichrist to do anything and everything that they do.Where is the book during Revelation until it is handed by God unto the Lamb? Who is it handed to? Why, because The Lamb Has Prevailed!” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Obviously satan isnt controlling jesus. |
| David Lewayne Porter,Then explanation your original comment. |
| David Lewayne Porter,You see God can do anything and use any tool He chooses to. Do you not remember He hardened Pharaoh’s heart and at the same time said He created Pharoah in order to get glory through him? |
| Ricky Grimsley,He hardened pharoahs heart after his own choice. The bible doesnt say god created pharoah to be evil. He brought him to power to use him though. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Did God create Pharaoh (if even through procreation), did God know from the foundation of the Works that Pharoah would be born and ruling at that time, did God not tell Moses all that would had with Pharaoh’s harden heart before God sent Moses back to face him? Then God having orchestrated it all He in essence created Him for the purpose of getting the Glory through Pharoah. Exodus 14:17 And I, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host, upon his 18 And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh, upon his chariots, and upon his horsemen. chariots, and upon his horsemen.Let’s come back to your thought of satan and the antichrist doing it.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”I do not believe that god has exhaustive foreknowledge. The phrase “”foundation of the world”” refers to its overthrow due to sin not creation. Saying god does everything is a slippery slope.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,Saying God does not have exhaustive foreknowledge is an even slippery(er) slope.Does not sound like that God is truly (the Jehovah) of the Bible does it? |
| Ricky Grimsley,God tests us to find out. Just ask abraham. Why was god sorry he made man if he always knew they would fail. Also the instances where moses changed gods mind? |
| David Lewayne Porter,”So what is your point as it relates to God not having exhaustive foreknowledge? (We are not taking about is not knowing, but we are taking about his knowing – so you don’t think God knew those men would respond that way? Maybe just maybe God chose then because He knew his they would react (Genesis 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him). How did God know what he would do in the future? , nice thought, And please do not get distracted from our original conversation.” |
| Wahyu,”Good point and anyone who knows the truth and is left behind will receive strong delusion and believe a lie. So if pretrib is correct, then what’s the point of revelation” |
| David Lewayne Porter,To deal with Israel [Daniel’s 70th week]. |
| Wahyu,I mean the book. If we’re not hear for it then why are we studying it? Those who learn it and miss the pretrib rapture wouldn’t believe it anyway |
| Lawrence Bradford,”Rev. Is dealing with the Jewish people, not the Church, but your not going to receive that.” |
| Wahyu,I know rev. Is the Rev of Jesus to israel. That’s not the question. My point is that anyone studying the book now will either be rapture (if pretrib is true) or they will receive strong delusion and believe a lie. So why is it in there…..but you won’t receive my question |
| Megan Shaffer,Don’t forget to precept with revelations 2:9 & revelations 3:9 |
| Megan Shaffer,Paul didn’t ask who are Jewish ppl. In Romans 9:4 he asked who are israelites. |
| Megan Shaffer,If you research you’ll see the israelites went into slavery deuteronomy28:68 and because they became property their records are still available online and in museums. I’ve seen then and distributed them. They show who own the boats that brought the israelites to America and enslaved them 400yrs. Jewish ppl were the captians and boat owners that brought them here and sold them to Americans for slaves. The records are still here. |
| Megan Shaffer,Revelations 2:9 &; 3:9 are identity theft warnings from our messiah. |
| Megan Shaffer,Please understand that the ppl they call Jewish ppl are children of esau. They have been trying to take back their birthright from jacob. The book of obadiah explains what will happen to the edomites(childrenofesau) whom god hates for what they’ve done all these years to their brother jacob(israelites) |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Megan Shaffer, simple question. Do I understand you to being saying that the identities of the true Jews have been reversed and those living in Israel now are not the true Jews? Is that what you are trying to put forth as your thought.” |
| Megan Shaffer,”Yes. Then I’m adding that once you’ve identified the true jews then re examine prophecy and you’ll see they fit it perfectly. As it is written. Jewish ppl have never been slaves in a land there father’s didn’t know for 400yrs. The truth can’t be hid. They call themselves jewish. Because they know (ish)means similiar. And (ite) means son or direct descendants. We need to be looking for israel the (ppl) not the corporate nation state called israel and it’s citizens israeli’s. We need israelites. These are the 144,000. Have gods ppl fallen that they can’t get up? God forbid. So let’s look for ppl who are coming back to his laws and we’re previously slaves for 400yrs.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Then the 6 day war and “”a nation being born in a day”” should really give you some issues I guess?” |
| Megan Shaffer,Using precepts youll find there are no issues. Your making me want to send you a free book. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”As far as your free book, feel free, I like to keep other literature on my cult and occult shelf with the LDS, JE and like materials.” |
| Ricky Grimsley, |
| Wahyu,Lol where did you get that |
| Charles Page!,Plain truth??? |
| Megan Shaffer,”A lot of interesting statements. The problem is this subject must be precepted throughout the entire bible for the whole word is (alive and active). Lets remember when jesus and paul walked the earth there was no new testament so everything they taught came from the old testament. For example Jeremiah 30:7 – How awful that day will be! No other will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob(not to be confused with jewish ppl), but he will be saved out of it. (Now Jacob is buried and gone so obviously this is talking about the sons of jacob(israelites) still on the earth. But you must add psalms83:4 -because according to this scripture most ppl will know nothing about the true biblical israelites. -Come,”” they say, “”let us wipe out Israel as a nation. We will destroy the very memory of its existence. My opinion is if you want to escape tribulation stick with the sons of jacob because they will be saved out of it with any gentile that has teamed up with them.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Your point being? If temple minstry is to be reestablished, at which point The thrust of God’s drawing is on Israel again due to the temple worship which the gentile New Testament Church will have no part of, thus Daniel’s 70th week and main thought of the last 2/3 of Revelation. Is that what you ment?” |
| Megan Shaffer,Satan is building a Temple in the nation state called Israel not God or God’s ppl the Israelites. Satan and the edomites are building it. Do you know who the israelites are today? Are the edomites? When they come back together Christ will lead the real children of jacob out of the wilderness and back to the land. He will do it not some backroom political deal(Balfour declaration) |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Simple answer, do you believe the inhabitants of Israel right now are the true Israelites due the promised land?” |
| Megan Shaffer,No. |
| Megan Shaffer,”They didnt follow God and in 70ad they were no more in the land. Hosae8:13- International VersionThough they offer sacrifices as gifts to me, and though they eat the meat, the LORD is not pleased with them. Now he will remember their wickedness and punish their sins: They will return to Egypt” |
| Megan Shaffer,”Egypt as Exodus 20:2 says is slavery. King James Bible I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. When were the Jewish ppl in slavery for 400yrs?” |
| Megan Shaffer,Reading the Bible one can come up with dozens of different doctrines. This we know. But God has a secret way for us to understand the hidden message in the bible. Psalm119:104I gain understanding from your precepts; therefore I hate every wrong path. We must use precept upon precept to gain true understandjng. When you do a sign will be that you will be hated by all men because of Christ. |
| Megan Shaffer,”Now let’s think real hard. After hearing about messiah and his love for humans who could possible hate him or his chosen ppl israelites? I’ll tell you the secret to why they will be hated. They were enslaved and conquered by every nation of earth. Therefore karma as some call it will return. Isaiah14:2And the people shall take them, and bring them to their place: and the house of Israel shall possess them in the land of the LORD for servants and handmaids: and they shall take them captives, whose captives they were; and they shall rule over their oppressors.” |
| Megan Shaffer,”Do you know about the 1,000years of bondage in the kingdom? David Lewayne Porter” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”In order for your identity of the Jews to hold up you must believe each and every Jew was removed during the dispersal(s) including your 70ad, and that there are no true Jews at all left in Israel. As far as in bondage 400 years. Slavery etc, (Gen 15:13 afflicted). Exodus 12:40&41 alone with Acts 7:6 should answer your question.” |
| Megan Shaffer,No it says into Egypt Again. They will return a 2nd time into slavery. 400years. Exodus was 430yrs. Also I believe when you have a moment you should recheck your understanding of the term jew and Jewish ppl. |
| Megan Shaffer,I love to share understandings but its difficult because so much needs to be retaught. And pride always gets in the way. But I’ll try any ways. Look for a fake messiah a fake god a fake law a fake church and fake doctrine. The edomites are your enemy if you love Christ. Not all edomites but those whom have sided with satan. They are his ppl. Israelites are Gods ppl. The problem is satan is the god of this world so guess who everyone will think are God’s ppl? Jews. There is a family with 12sons. Real sons. They split up in disagreement. Once was cut off and lived like the heathen and became as gentiles to the other kingdom. Judah benhamin and levi. N I was to be a jew means that during the time of hyrcanus many edomites pretended to want to come back to the god of their brother Jacob but they were liars. Sneaky. They killed hyrcanus and teamed up with the Romans to conquer The true sons of Jacob. When you open your n.t. This is how Herod becomes ruler. King of the jews. They were edomites who converted and lived as the judahites. |
| Megan Shaffer,Once they made the world believe they were the gods ppl that gave them automatic authority over the land and the scriptures. Authority over the Scriptures mean authority over doctrine. The doctrines that come out of our theology colleges. |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer,Jews aren’t from the tribe of judah. They are the 13th tribe referred to as edomites. Sons of esau. Esdras6:9 says esau will be ruling in the end time. Is that prophecy or what |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer,David Lewayne Porter |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Megan Shaffer I am sorry it took so long, I had some real work to do for my employer.So you believe that the Jews are the 13th tribe?That leaves an issue for you; Let me put it this way; considering if there are 13 tribes you take the original 12 sons of Jacob and then back out Joseph. Then you add Manasseh and Ephraim in his place.But that also causes a problem with the notes you referred to earlier on the 144,000 witnesses in Revelation chap 7 (12,000 from each Israelite tribe – except for Dan is omitted – so it is not a complete list of the Israelites as you like to reference them).And I hate to point out John 4:22I will paste this one (John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews).If you read verse 21 before it, Jesus was speaking and called Himself a Jew, not just an Israeli.Precept upon Precept yes,And LINE upon LINE 😉 .Jesus was also of the tribe of Judea (He is The Lion of the Tribe of Judea) so then Jesus = Jew = Israeli = Lion of the Tribe of Judea.So then is your Saviour not a Jew?Is He not the Lion of the Tribe of Judea? He could not (by your notes) be a Jew from the 13 tribe and be an Israeli from the tribe of Judea (He was of Judea because He was of David and born in Bethlehem of Judea – so how then did He say “”we”” (He was included) We know what we worship: for Salvation is of the (JEWS).That is KJV by the way.also ALT, ASV, BBE, DARBY, EMTV, ESV, GW, ISV, KJVA, KJVR, LITV, MKJV, RV, WEBSTER, WNT, and YLT if you would like to compare them all. The Gospels spell out beautifully that as Jesus sent to minister to the lost Sheep of the House of Israel. He did so among the Jews (of which all the feasts we are told were of the Jews – Jewish festivals which He kept (Luke 4:16)).As He ministered He was received and believed on by many Jews.So then how do you just discount the Jews?That my sister gives you a problem. The Jews are the decendants of Abraham, through the son of promise Isaac, passed down through Jacob and his 12 sons.Here are a few more;John 3:1 Nicodemus came to Jesus and was allowed an audience with Him being a jew at a time when Jesus was only sent unto the lost sheep of the house of IsraelMatt 27:11 Jesus did not deny being the Jew’s kingJohn 2:13 Jesus attended the Passover of the Jews – as well as other festivals.John 2:20 The Jews controlled the temple of which Jesus frequented. I do not discount your prophecy about Esau and I am not discounting the one most people miss about Ishmael dwelling in the mist of his brethren (Genesis 17:20 & Gen 16:12).But Israel vss Jews, that is a stretch.Again, there is a problem with what you have stated.And that is not from “”other”” books.That is straight Bible. Precept upon Precept,yesBut also,Line upon Line.” |
| Megan Shaffer,OK piece by piece. 1st. Jesus was a Jew? |
| Megan Shaffer,Jew & judahite are two different terms with two different meanings. Besides the letter j didn’t get added to the English alphabet until 300+years ago. (His name as his mother would have spoken it is Yashayah but that’s another topic) |
| Megan Shaffer,Do you understand that they added the word (jew) in the bible in order to deceive the world. |
| Megan Shaffer,Read this |
| Megan Shaffer,”Jesus Himself was not a Jew (Judean) or resident of Judea, He was a Galilean or resident of Galilee (Matthew 26:69; John 7:41), and a Judahite or descendent of the Tribe of Judah. The Judeans of prominence were not of the Tribe of Judah, but of Edomites. Pilate was being ironic when he wrote the sign “”Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Judeans”” for the Cross (John 19:19). That is, “”the Galilean who was King of the Judeans,”” as in “”Queen Victoria of England, Empress of India.”” Jesus grew up in Nazareth in Galilee. His disciples were fishermen from the Sea of Galilee. And although He visited Jerusalem, he spent most of His life in his home country of Galilee. John 7:1, “”After this Jesus stayed in Galilee; for He could not walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill him.”” His followers were constrained “”for fear of the Jews”” (John 7:13, 19:38, 20:19).” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”No,Jesus’ family was from Galilee before the trip to Bethlehem for the taxing and census (see my post on the walk thru Matt chapter 2) it will help enlighten your confusion.Simple question, does not your Bible say they went up to Bethlehem because they were of the house of David, does it not say in those days the time was for her to be delivered, did she not lay him in the manager? Why would she have done that if she was back home in Galilee? As you said before, slow down, think.Now as far as your “”for fear of the Jews”” yes, A prophet is not without honor except among his own, He was a Jew. Go re-walk through Matt 2 and the fulfilled prophecies. He was of David, Birth in Bethlehem of Judaea, called out of Egypt, settled in Nazareth. He fulfilled all and none contradict the another, not a one.You believe it has to be one or the other. In God’s plan. And in His Word they all work together. Have you ever sat down and read all of the Messianic prophesies? He has fulfilled them all with the exception of those pending in relation to His second coming as the reigning Lord and King.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”As far as jew being added to the Bible (thanks)You opened a door I wanted opened.You are correct, They originally were Hebrews, the 12 (12 count them) tribes of Israel – Hebrews = Israel. Abram (Abraham) was called a Hebrew first in Gen 14:13 before the covenant and name change. They were all called Hebrews during the Exodus (all 12 tribes) So then your argument over the Jews and them dwelling in Israel now just lost it’s validation, because by your own post they don’t exist, just the 12 tribes do.Paul called himself a Hebrew, and a Jew Philippians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;Acts 22:3 I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.Hebrew (strong’s – since you used the strong’s earlier)Greek 1445 ἙβÏαῖος [*(EBRAI=OS] {Hebraîos} heb-rah’-yosfrom 1443; a Hebræan (i.e. Hebrew) or Jew:–Hebrew.And he was of the tribe of Benjamin (so then, how do you reconcile that).Eventually you will see your explanations run you into a corner and contradicts themselves.That was easy.” |
| Megan Shaffer,Your saying the same thing |
| Megan Shaffer,The original point was that he is not a jew because he is not a judean. He is not a judean because he didn’t grow up there. He grew up in Galilee and that’s why he’s called a nazarene and a galileen. He is never called a jew except as a mockery by King herod the edomite. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”You don’t have to grow up there, he had to be born there, there in is wisdom, you discount the prophecy and the fulfillment of it. There is your misunderstanding and error.He did not have to live there to be of Judah.He had to have his DNA.” |
| Megan Shaffer,You wouldn’t call someone from Florida a new yorker. You would only use the term new yorker someone who grew up or lives in new york |
| Megan Shaffer,Why would he have fear of the Jews if he is a jew and so were the ppl of galilee and nazareth? |
| David Lewayne Porter,A prophet is not without honor except among his own. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Again, your explanation is flawed. Was the person from FL born in FL or were they born in/or from NY.Allow me to demonstrate;My in-laws were from NY state (born there) but had lived in NC since 1968 (37 years in North Carolina). Until they day they died they not only let us call them Yankees and say they were from NY, but they called themselves Yankees. They did not like to be referred to as a Carolinian or southerner. Their siblings still say they are Yankees (were they were born) even though most of their lives have been lived in NC. So yes. Yes I would, yes I did, yes I doif they are BORN there.Go back and read all the places in Matt 2 that Matthew makes a point to indicate where Jesus fulfilled prophecies – and three of the four address and answers this.I admire your passion. I admire your study habit. But you made one mistake that must people do in studying the scriptures. You have go to the Bible with an open and yielded heart and spirit willing to be instructed and taught. You let it lead you, you don’t go looking with preconceived notions. Here is where we differIf ANYTHING or ANYONE does not agree with the Bible they lose. I will never take any word over the Bible (take science – look at how long they thought the winds just blew straight when David said they run in circles or currents – and there are others.. Geology and archeology have never disproved any of the Bible, as a matter of fact they are proving it (as written)). God in His omniscience knew how to preserve His Word and deliver it to us thru the years.As is seen in 2 Peter 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: But read vs 16 – 21.Trusting sources other than the scriptures is what got the Latter Day Saints and Jehovah Witnesses into the place they are today. The JW believe they are the true tribes as well. And they can “”prove”” it if you use their materials. I have shown them their error in their Bible and literature to the point they will not come to my neighborhood, much less house. I may just buy your books to show you were they lead you off the mark.” |
| Charles Page!,supposedly as Americans we are teamed up with Israel as the two lost tribes! |
| Ricky Grimsley,Lunacy |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Nope, Israel, true Israel must stand alone.” |
| Charles Page!,you don’t believe the British Israeli connection? |
| David Lewayne Porter,”No I don’t, Israel will and must stand alone. At the end, at that time when forsaken by all others, she will then be put into a position to accept Jesus the Messiah as He has always wanted and intended.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”I think where most pretribber go wrong is they dont use anything but daniel from the Old Testament. The “”day of the lord”” needs to be studied more.” |
| Megan Shaffer,Sorry Charles but no. The Bible says all nations will be against christ. America can’t be supporting christ and legalize gay marriage and abortion. Cmon. This is babylon. Charles Page please listen closesly. God out his own mouth said if Israel obeyed his laws they would rule. If they didn’t they would be ruled over. Deuteronomy teaches all this. Now they didn’t listen so they are not to rule. So how are Jewish ppl ruling? Those are jew(ish) ppl not judah(ites) there is a bigggg difference. Let me share with you a question that has yet to be answered by hundreds I’ve asked over the years. Deuteronomy 28:68 – when did the jewish ppl go into slavery by ship for 400yrs? |
| Megan Shaffer,According to John 8:44 by their own mouth they never went into slavery. This is because when the israelites were in Egypt the children of his brother esau were in Edom growing and getting stronger for the day when they can take back their birth right thru force. |
| Megan Shaffer,Esdras 6:9 tells us esau is the end of the world and Jacob is the beginning of that which follows. This is why Jacob was holding the heel of esau |
| David Lewayne Porter,Megan ShafferYou keep saying 400 years by ship. Where do you get 400 years in Deuteronomy 28:68? Don’t worry I am ready for your answer (the question is a set-up). |
| Megan Shaffer,”Genesis 15:13Then the LORD said to Abram, “”You can be sure that your descendants will be strangers in a foreign land, where they will be oppressed as slaves for 400 years. David Lewayne Porter” |
| Megan Shaffer,They were never in egypt 400years |
| Megan Shaffer,(Jasher 81:3) 210years they were in egypt. The historian josephus agrees. Research the hyksos this is when israelites ruled in Egypt before the oppression came. The septuagint translates exodus 12:40 as canaan & egypt but our bibles only say egypt. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Megan Shaffer You have jumped ship, you said 400 years captivity taken down by ship Deuteronomy 28:681) So then since you did what I knew you would…. Your using two scriptures for one point:Here is a hint that will help you on this topic (Matt in his gospel set out with one main point – to prove beyond doubt the Jesus was scripturally and prophetically the Messiah/Christ.Read Matt with that in mind paying special note to everywhere it states “”as it was spoken by the””Jesus, born in Bethlehem so he was of the city and line of David Matt 2:5, He was called out of Egypt ch2:15, weeping for the murdered children ch2:17, Matt 2:27 after leaving Egypt they settled in Nazareth so he would be called a Nazarean – so then Precept upon Precept, and Line upon Line, Jesus was both from Bethlehem as from the line of David and was the Nazarean. Each time He was called either they were saying in essence “”you are the fulfillment of the ancient Prophecies””. You see then there is no contradiction. It is an escalating fulfillment of prophecy, fulfilled step by step, one at a time, not all at once. That is where you are missing it.2) Now back to your 400 years Gen 15:13, and taken down by ships Deuteronomy 28:68, ,,, they do not have to be nor were they fulfilled all at once. We do know that they were fulfilled at different times just like the walk thru Matt chapter 2.But as far as they never were in Egypt for 400 years, you are correct,,, it was 430 years….Exodus 12:40 Now the sojourning of the children of Israel, who dwelt in Egypt, was four hundred and thirty years. Exodus 12:41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.(I do believe with the training in the court of Pharoah that Moses had and the one on one relationship he had with God that he got his facts straight, not to mention when he realized he was truly the promised deliverer that his nurse, his mother would have filled in all the blanks – since he did pen the first 5 books of the Holy Scriptures).Acts 7:6 And God spake on this wise, That his seed should sojourn in a strange land; and that they should bring them into bondage, and entreat them evil four hundred years. Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. The 400/430 years does not just mention the hard bondage, slavery, and entreated for evil,it starts with the statement of God that they would sojourn and be strangers in the land, as you pointed out (Canaan and Egypt) which started with when God had Abraham move locations leaving his family behind. Gen 12:1-4.Seems like “”our”” understanding is the issue, not God’s Word.Line upon Line, Precept upon Precept.Don’t forget it also saysHerea little There a little, It does not come all at onceIsaiah 28:10.” |
| Megan Shaffer,”What will all the pastors do when the 144,000 are here teaching God’s word? Will they align their doctrine or keep loyalty to misunderstandings from Pauls letters as we’ve been warned by 2nd Peter 3:15-“ |
| Megan Shaffer,Are you guys exempt |
| Ricky Grimsley,Im sure we are all deceived about something. Lol |
| Megan Shaffer,All except……those called out of the ways of the world. Ricky Grimsley |
| Wahyu,Wow. I’ve never heard anything so convoluted |
| Ricky Grimsley,I http://youtu.be/NoDLY7lJrEY |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Terry Wiles,Ridiculous! Jesus was a Jew. He was not recognized as the King of the Jews. Your source does not have credibility. |
| Megan Shaffer,What is a jew. Do you even know? A jew was a resident of judea. I was considered a new yorker. That’s not an ethnicity. American is not an ethnicity. A judahite is a son of judah. He was a judahite. |
| Melvin Harter, |
| Megan Shaffer,”Jesus Himself was not a Jew (Judean) or resident of Judea, He was a Galilean or resident of Galilee (Matthew 26:69; John 7:41), and a Judahite or descendent of the Tribe of Judah. The Judeans of prominence were not of the Tribe of Judah, but of Edomites. Pilate was being ironic when he wrote the sign “”Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Judeans”” for the Cross (John 19:19). That is, “”the Galilean who was King of the Judeans,”” as in “”Queen Victoria of England, Empress of India.”” Jesus grew up in Nazareth in Galilee. His disciples were fishermen from the Sea of Galilee. And although He visited Jerusalem, he spent most of His life in his home country of Galilee. John 7:1, “”After this Jesus stayed in Galilee; for He could not walk in Judea, because the Jews sought to kill him.”” His followers were constrained “”for fear of the Jews”” (John 7:13, 19:38, 20:19).” |
| Melvin Harter,”I am pre-Trib. I would not get mad at God. However, if you are not pre-Trib, do you think you could make it through the Tribulation Period because if you are not looking for Him to come, I don’t think you will go when Gabriel blows his trumpet. “”Unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time unto salvation.””” |
| Melvin Harter,”Megan, Jesus was born in Bethlehem, not Galilee.” |
| Megan Shaffer,”How would a woman who is nine months pregnant travel 175 kilometers (68miles) on a donkey all the way to Bethlehem of Judea?†It makes much more sense that she would have traveled seven kilometers,†the distance from Nazareth to Bethlehem of the Galilee.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Here in is wisdom.Even though the (earthy and human people considered Jesus the son of Joseph) Christ got his human lineage for the throne and being the Messiah from his mother Mary, the only human element in His birth. God Himself prophesied That Jesus, The Christ, the Messiah would rule on David’s thrown forever as a son of David Luke 1:32. That being the case if Mary was not of the line of David then how is He David’s son? LUKE 20:41-44 – Jesus poses this question because of their lack of scriptural understanding, the answer (Rom 1:3). So you don’t say the lineage came from the male seed (Joseph) the promise of the Redeemer comes through the seed of woman Gen 3:15 – (we don’t consider women having seed). Matt ch 1 shows the lineage through Joseph his step father – Joseph’s father is Jacob – vs 16. Luke 3 gives the lineage through Mary – the grandfather is mentioned as Heli – Mary’s father vs 23. Historians tell us that is Mary’s Father. KJV “”son of”” is added by the translators and losses the Greek thought of “”son in law”” (because families were joined at marriage as if to now be one – marriage was considered a blood covenant).I Kings 8:25, 9:5, 2Ch 7:18 promises of a ruler from King David himself.Although Matt and Luke shows He is a Jew, Son of David, tribe of Judah, by both father and mother.As far as not a Jew, I posted yesterday on another thread Jesus called himself a JewJohn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.Vs 22 stated by Jesus “”we – himself included””, Salvation is of the Jews.” |
| Megan Shaffer,Where he was born and grew up are two different places. When I say he wasn’t a jew I mean he didn’t grow up where the jews lived. He grew up where the Galileen’s lived. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”I don’t care where He grew up.I am taking aboutHis make upWho He was. You started all of your comments because the ones in Israel now are not the true Israelites (according to you) so then you did not comment on where but who. Now you want to discuss where, not who. Get on a page and stick with it.I am only discussing Who He was (A Jew of Jews) King of the Jews everywhere He went, whatever He did. A Jew, an Israelite, from the tribe of Judah, born in Bethlehem of Judea, the Son of David. During His Ministry He had the entire run of the Holy Land, the Promise land, the land of the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That is my topic of discussion. That is my stance, no more, no less.” |
| Wahyu,Ummmm it doesn’t matter if it makes sense to you. Matt. 2 very plainly says he was born in Bethlehem of Judea. |
| Megan Shaffer,I’m trying to share with you how the Devil deceives the world. It does not say judea. You have to learn the difference between judea and the land of judah |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Megan ShafferLet’s show down as you said it. Let’s readWhere did the scribes tell Herod the King would be born, (that ciders Old Testament prophecy, and New Testament fulfillment), Matt CHAPTER 2.1 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,2 Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.3 When Herod the king had heard these things, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him.4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.5 And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,6 And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.7 Then Herod, when he had privily called the wise men, enquired of them diligently what time the star appeared.8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, and said, Go and search diligently for the young child; and when ye have found him, bring me word again, that I may come and worship him also.Now you said it DID NOT SAYJUDÆA I would LOVE to point outV 1 Judæa – Judea v 5 Judæa – JudeaSends like you just WILLINGLY chose to overlook that as you pointed out V 6 Juda.So then Judea, Judah, Judaea. You said it was not there, it did not say it. What else do you suppose you have wrong?” |
| Wahyu,She said it was translated wrong….I feel like I’m taking crazy pills |
| David Lewayne Porter,”John CongerI love it, iron sharpens iron, keeps me sharp, and it makes us all examine what we personally believe.Besides every time she tries to cast doubt on the Bible, she weakens everything she quotes from it to prove her very own point. The longer she stays on the hook the weaker her stance gets.(And yes I know she just read that), that is the very reason I typed it.I don’t witness like others, I don’t use the normal paths through scriptures that most people do and get backed into corners, so I welcome her discussions.I know Whom I have believed and He is able to keep that which what I have committed unto Him against The Day.(It is not just the Bible, it is my personal testimony and what He has done to prove Himself and His LIVING WORD in my life in an active and living way).By the way. Nice to meet youPastor Rev Bishop(CoG)David L Porter” |
| Megan Shaffer,(Judah) had its kingdom. Next to them was a kingdom of edom which is esau. It was called (idumea) when the Romans conquered they consolidated the land and called it judea. So the cities changed. The names changed. |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer,”I know it’s hard to understand without a lot of background info. I don’t mean to confuse I most certainly do not doubt the bible at all. The writers were indeed inspired but the translators, those whom later became the authority on interpretation I don’t trust.” |
| Megan Shaffer,”Jeremiah8:8- New Living Translation””‘How can you say, “”We are wise because we have the word of the LORD,”” when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies?” |
| Megan Shaffer,Plus the maps are upside down |
| Megan Shaffer,https://youtu.be/2MLiFk3GUI8 |
| Megan Shaffer,The israelites never consider the land to be called judea the name their oppressors used just as the natives here didn’t refer to this land as America or themselves as native americans. Lands are renamed when they are conquered. |
| Megan Shaffer,Even the Scriptures tells us they were called Christians first in antioch. They didn’t call themselves Christians they referred to themselves by their tribal name. Paul was a benjamite from the tribe of benjamin |
| Megan Shaffer,The oppressors called them christians. They were israelites who believed in messiah. It wasn’t a religion it was a family. A family believed in their king and once United they will again be a nation. The Jews have a holy book above the bible. It’s called the talmud. When you read it you’ll see just how much they hate jesus. |
| Wahyu,David Lewayne Porter pleasure sir. I’m a former COG pastor. Enjoy the conversation |
| Megan Shaffer,Jesus didn’t grow up in Judea if he did hed be a jew but he grew up in Galilee and that’s why he’s called a nazarene & a Galileen. Jew doesn’t mean son of Judah it means resident of Judea. A Son of Judah is Judahite. It’s the main method they use to produce false doctrine. Just study the word jew and the Father will open your eyes to the truth. |
| Megan Shaffer,”There is no gate for pentecostal, for a muslim, catholic, Buddhist, mormon, or a christian. The 12 gates are named after the judahites. The benjamites, ephraimites, etc. If your not part of them your a gentile and if your getting into the kingdom then you have to be grafted into one of these tribes. These tribes are waking up now. They are repenting for breaking God’s laws, they belive and preach Christ and they also preach living righteous according to the laws given by God. These are 12 nations. They all share the same history of the curses found in deuteronomy. These nations are at the bottom of the world. It is to them and their God that we are grafted in.” |
| Megan Shaffer,2nd esdras 6:9 tells us that esau will be ruling in the end times. Jeremiah 49:10 tells us God will reveal esau after stripping him bare giving him no place to hide for the things he did to his brother Jacobs children. Job 9:24; tells us the earth has been given into the hand of the wicked. And revelations 3:9 tells us about the identity theft of the true judahites. When you look in history you will see the word jew isn’t even 300years old and it was invented and inserted in the bible by themselves the Jewish ppl. Read revelations 2:9 people. |
| Megan Shaffer,”When it says for fear of the jews it’s talking about the edomite jews OF THE SAME FAMILY AS HERODM It is NOT TALKING ABOUT JUDAHITES SONS OF JUDAH, ISRAELITES.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Trust me Megan ShafferYou are not confusing me.I am not the one that does not understand.I mean look at it this way from our view point;when you can’t comprehend Jesus’ family leaving Galilee, being born in Bethlehem because he is of the house of David the tribe of Judea, moving to Egypt, and being called back to settle in Nazareth so He is called Nazarean, ,,, if you can’t comprehend that, why do we want to believe you have any other of your information and sources correct?” |
| Wahyu,I wanna be a benjamite. They’re awesome with sling shots |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Megan ShafferIf you can’t listen, if you can’t read and understand then there is the issue, I did not say he grew up in Judea, I said he was born there.Was Jesus the Son of David? Matt 1:1 – please have the audacity to tell me that is a mistranslation.Did not his family as you posted go to Bethlehem for the taxing? Why did they?Judea was because it fell to the inhabitants and heirs from Judah – you do realize that in Joshua as they took lots for the land that is was done by tribe (name) and they renamed alot of places as they took them over, do you know remember that? My point geographic location started with family and name (tribe) location.Building block number 1You don’t start building a house with the roof.I don’t believe you ever answered my question the other day..So you believe all of the true Israelites were deported during all of the captivities and deportations to such an extent as to no one there now is a true Israeli (by your standard)?” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”And I have studied the word jew, and.. hebrew, Israel, Israelite, and all of the (13 tribes – the original 12 – Joseph now being Ephraim and Manasses). Trust me you are not telling me anything new. I have been thru all of this before.As far as not trusting the translators (do you even know how the English Bible and it’s predecessors got to us?)You can’t trust the translators, so you cast doubt, but unless you can read the Greek (Koine), Hebrew, and Aramaic, you have to give total trust to your other sources. To me, that is weak at best. The KJV is not a perfect translation, but it is closer than some of the others you have chosen to quote (due to the way they phrase – backing up your points),My sources in addition to those anyone can get to (a personal friend (mutual friend) of the author of the screen shot I sent The Word Study Bible (Spiros Zodhiates of AMG Publishers international, American Missions to The Greeks) we have studied in depth often. Also others the have studied the Greek and Hebrew exhaustively. One is a cousin with over 5 years Greek that reads straight from the Greek as he translates, and yes he with change the FEW words that have a substitute with a more accurate meaning, but they are very few.I will reply to some of your other points when I get more time. Here is one for you to contemplate Matt 2:5&6 Bethlehem of Juda v6, Judea V5But when the prophet in the Old Testament spoke it originallyMicah 5:2 But thou, Beth–lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.Judah Old TestamentHebrew 3063יהוּדה[yehûdâh] yeh-hoo-daw’From 3034; celebrated;Jehudah (or {Judah}) the name of five Israelites; also of the tribe descended from the {first} and of its territory: – Judah.Whether you trust the men or not, you limit the ability of God to use them to translate His prefect meaning. Your argument is flawed.” |
| Megan Shaffer,I do believe that. |
| Megan Shaffer,https://youtu.be/w-2I_RlLjHU |
| Wahyu,Lol no thanks nothing trumps scripture |
| Megan Shaffer,Then we have a problem. Contradiction. If Jesus was born in Bethlehem of judea why is he called a Nazarean and a Galilean throughout the New Testament? |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Megan Shaffer asked me yesterday about her (almost wanting to send me a free book)I was not going to do this. I was going to be nice. But I feel it is needed, especially after the reply to John.I have a free book for you Megan” |
| David Lewayne Porter, |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Megan Shaffer You asked why Jesus was called a Nazarean, that will be answered on my post about your 400 years by sea Deuteronomy 28:68″ |
| Wahyu,Um cause he lived there. |
| Marvin Elliott,Read the four Gospels / Even the old testament told us where he was born an lived. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Luke 2:4 KJVS[4] And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)Matthew 2:1 KJVS[1] Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem,Then they went to Egypt for a bitMatthew 2:15 KJVS[15] And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son. Then well herod died they went back to nazereth. Matthew 2:23 KJVS[23] And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene.There are no contradictions here. Is bart ehrman teaching everywhere these days?” |
| Megan Shaffer,Salvation of the jews. No it didn’t say that. Go back to the greek. It was translated wrong. How can the sons of Judah be jews but the sons of benjamin be jews too. Cmon. Benjamite. Levite. Hamite. Edomite. Israelite. Cmon. Ishmaelite. Cmon. |
| Wahyu,When God spoke the prophecies over the split nation didn’t he call them Ephraim? Or Judah for the south? |
| Megan Shaffer,There are 2 Bethlehem’s. We must unlearn then relearn. The mysteries have been hidden until now so the doctrines of the past are wrong. We have to relearn using precept upon precept. |
| Megan Shaffer,”The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia defines “”Jew”” as the same word of Strong’s #2453 in the following words: “”‘Jew’ denotes originally an inhabitant of Judah, (2 Kings 16:6 applies to the two tribes of the Southern Kingdom) but later they twisted the meaning to extended to embrace all descendants of Abraham which is confusing in itself. Once we get to the description of the 12gates to the kingdom we see there is no gate for christians. For Jews or jewish ppl, muslims, catholics, buddhist, etc.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Strong’s 2453 also uses the word palestine in it’s definition which was substituted later own in history in an effort to erase the very memory of the promised land Canaan (Gen 17:8) from the hearts of the 12 tribes of Israel.It (palestine) is only used one time in the Bible, and it is used as a rebuke.As far as the 12 gates, (oh this is going to be fun) we are grafted in – I will let you look that up. We don’t need a gate if that is your premise. What is the city clothed with?Rev 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.She is arrayed in fine linen (the righteousness of the saints) Notice how that lines up with a church letter, a gentile (non-Israeli) church received this letter Ephesians 5:27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.And since you are goIng to think I lost it… the chapter continues 31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church, guess WHO the Bride, the City, New Jerusalem is? (THE CHURCH, not Israel, not the Jews, not anyone else – ALL MUST be part of the Church.Let’s go further, guest who makes it possible for and let’s the 12 tribes in? Hebrews tells us of the role Christians play (the Church)Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.Hebrews, not Jews, not Israel, but wait CHAPTER 1.1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Who has God spoken to by His Son? Vs 2 US, are WE part of US. Don’t forget we are grafted in to the vine that was natural but rejected the root. The root, Jesus Isaiah 11:10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious. Look at that, the Gentiles seek to Him the root.I will stop, (for now). Man I like this.” |
| Megan Shaffer,He was of the house and lineage of David. This makes his 1st born son heir to the throne. Did Mary give him a son. Did his son have brothers and sisters? The bible follows the lineage of the man not the woman. The jewish ppl go by the mother because they reject the father. Esau mixed his seen with unclean blood as a disrespect to his Father and his father’s God. That’s why God hates esau. He foreknowledge the things he would do to the children of his brother Jacob |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Luke 3 shows the lineage from Mary, Matt is from Joseph, Matt said Jesus’ grand dad is Jacob and Luke said Jesus’ grand dad was Heli” |
| Marvin Elliott, |
| Terry Wiles,Lol |
| David Lewayne Porter,Maybe that’s a sign? ! |
| Wahyu,Because he made himself equal with God. It tells you the that. And you’re trying to base your theology on American terminology. Fundamental flaw |
| Charles Page!,the tribulation took place before AD 70! We are in the millennial presently! |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Man, I am “”glad”” we are in the millennial since we are having 1000 years of “”peace”” with satan bound and no temptation or sin. I am so glad you cleared that up for me. I was worried for a second?!?” |
| Carl Murphy,So the year is 1070? |
| Charles Page!,”there was a 1070, also an 1870, 1970 and I believe there will be a 2070 if the final resurrection hasn’t taken place.” |
| Carl Murphy,And? |
| Carl Murphy,”I remember as a teenager every evangelist that came through preached on the rapture and being left behind. Then I go to Bible college and it’s pre,post, mid, already happened, never will happen. I have come to my own theology on the issue: I am prayed up, Jesus paid me up and I am ready to go up, so if it’s like the old song, some through the water, some through the flood, some through great sorrow but all through the blood. I don’t care when or if the rapture takes place because as Paul said, for me to live is Christ, to die is gain. I prefer to be dead because the dead in Christ shall rise first and all those pre post and mid trib folks will have to meet me in the air” |
| Charles Page!,that is pan-millennialism!!! I used to believe that before I became convinced of A-millennialism. |
| Megan Shaffer,God based his calendar on sabbaths. Counting sabbaths gives you 364days per year. As it is well documented in the books of Enoch & Jubilees. Daniel tells u they will change times and laws. They led millions away from the Sabbath and being in harmony with the heavens and into their calendar their feast days etc. |
| Carl Murphy,Yet a day is like a thousand years and a thousands years as a day with God. |
| Megan Shaffer,The evening and the morning were the 1st day. Here In the western world you have day then evening is a day. The Bible based time off the riding and setting of the sun but here when the 12:00 witching hour comes time changes. Malachi tells us the God of Jacob doesn’t change. |
| Charles Page!,3 AM is the witching hour! |
| Megan Shaffer,We say on earth as it is in heaven yet here on earth we don’t celebrate the biblical feasts as they do in heaven. We don’t keep holy the same things they do in heaven. |
| Carl Murphy,”So I ask, when you die are you asleep in Christ or are you in heaven? If you are in heaven why have to go back to the grave to be resurrected?” |
| Terry Wiles,Body and soul will be reunited but a totally transformed body. |
| Carl Murphy,So are you saying your soul goes to heaven? Then why does it need a body? |
| Terry Wiles,Because the word of God declares a redemption of the Body. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Carl MurphyWe go back to the grave because without the body our “”redemption”” is not completeRomans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.Please read the entire chapter so it does not look like it was taken out of context.1 Cor 15:35 asks the same exact question that you are asking now. Please read from 35 through the end v 58.That is your answer in short,but here are a few more. ..1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. The human is a soul – the way we conduct ourselves individually, a spirit – what keeps us alive (the essence of God since He is the Creator of all life – Ecclesiastes 3:21Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward,,,), and we have or possess a bodyGenesis 2:7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (Notice this being said about Christ – Hebrews 10:5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:)Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.Philippians 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.” |
| Carl Murphy,I see nothing there that says the spirit immediately goes to heaven and the body waits in the grave |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Notice verse 8 below2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)*** 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Jesus did go to paradise during the three days in the heart of the earth Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Now to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, where is the Lord exactly? As you have already stated;Acts 7:55 But he (Steven), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (Also Acts 2:34, Rom 8:34, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1, – – Hebrews 1:3, 1:13, 8:1, 10:12, 12:2)In our flesh and blood, no we don’t go to Heaven (1 Corinthians 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption).But we will not be flesh and blood keep reading1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.So then our fleshly bodies do not go to Heaven, they will be resurrected, changed, and then in them were are judged.But at death our spirit returns to God that gave it, and the souls of the redeemed are with Him.” |
| Megan Shaffer,”many bible colleges falsely teach these to be belonging to the jewish people and the old covenant. No these belong to God. Leviticus23:2- “”Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘These are MY appointed festivals, the appointed festivals of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies.” |
| Megan Shaffer,No one goes to heaven. Heaven is coming to earth. We go to paradise until the regeneration. Then the 12disciples will sit on 12thrones judging the 12tribes of israel before they enter the city with 12gates. |
| Charles Page!,”Megan, are you familiar with the teachings of Yahweh ben Yahweh and the Nation of Yahweh?” |
| Megan Shaffer,No. But I am educated about the ancient and modern use of the term yahweh. Charles Page |
| Megan Shaffer,Do you know the true name of TheMostHigh? |
| Megan Shaffer,Hey in see you posted a video of zabach Charles Page |
| Charles Page!,”Megan Shaffer, yes Jesus, the name above all names and the name whereby men are saved.” |
| Charles Page!,”I worked with a guy who was involved with Yahweh ben Yahweh, the Nation of Yahweh and we had many interesting conversations. He believed his religion would eventually kill us (White people) and rape my wife and daughters.” |
| Terry Wiles,Interesting you use Wikipedia as your bases of truth. Anybody can put anything on there and others can edit it. |
| Megan Shaffer,Only when it agrees with other sources. |
| Megan Shaffer,If Messiah the Israelite King of Israelites is going to rule we know it’s going to be in righteousness. Rape isn’t a righteous act so don’t waste your time with doctrine that includes such. |
| Charles Page!,I rely on Wikipedia when it supports my view – but that support is subject to changing. |
| Megan Shaffer,Now Charles Page let me ask you a simple question. If the letter j is only a few hundred years old and the Hebrew Messiah lived 2000years ago…how could his name be jesus? Wasn’t the letter (j) the last letter added to the alphabet? |
| Charles Page!,”Megan Shaffer, The Nation of Yahweh have since moderated their views to non-violentverbal protest.” |
| Megan Shaffer,If we were there and listening to the voice of Mary and she announced his name what would we hear? Geezus? |
| Charles Page!,Ἐμμανουηλ ×ֵֽל׃ Emmanuel the son of God. Jesus Ἰησοῦς iÄ“sous (of Hebrew origin Yehoshua) |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Megan ShafferThe letter “”J””As I stated yesterday, I guess you must go back and read “”for yourself”” the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Koine Greek since we don’t realize a translation is not letter by letter. You can’t take anyone else by their word since none are totally correct and leave you with doubts. (And I say that sincerely, not as a joke).I will just call Him “”God in the flesh”” since He and The Father are one.” |
| Marvin Elliott,B| |
| Megan Shaffer,”John 3:13- No one has gone up to heaven except the one who came down from heaven, the Son of Man who is in heaven” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Up until that time, yes,but since. Notice v 8 below;2 Cor 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)*** 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.Jesus did go to paradise during the three days in the heart of the earth Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.Now to be absent from the body and present with the Lord, where is the Lord exactly? As you have already stated;Acts 7:55 But he (Steven), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him. (Also Acts 2:34, Rom 8:34, Eph 1:20, Col 3:1, – – Hebrews 1:3, 1:13, 8:1, 10:12, 12:2)In our flesh and blood, no we don’t go to Heaven (1 Corinthians 15:50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption).But we will not be flesh and blood keep reading1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.So then our fleshly bodies do not go to Heaven, they will be resurrected, changed, and then in them were are judged.But at death our spirit returns to God that gave it, and the souls of the redeemed are with Him.” |
| Megan Shaffer,Paradise is in the center of the earth and heaven is to the north of the universe |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Read the post They tell us after the ascension Jesus went to Heaven, they also tell us that at death our spirit returns to God, and to be out of this body is to be present with the Lord.If you can’t understand that I see a real issue. Major issue.Paradise WAS in the center of the earth until Jesus’ resurrection and ascension. At which point the believers went into God’s presence with Christ.Have ye not read, do you not understand (Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it. – read all the verses around it) (this verse was also a prophecy of the resurrection and ascension)I must ask a question, and I ask sincerely;You are not spirit filled unto baptism with the initial evidence of tongues are you? If you were the lite matters of scripture would be clear and simple.Line upon LinePrecept upon Precept Here a little There a little As far as north of the universe, which north? The universe has no gravity, our planet does so the reference point is human in origin and by definition. (For reference and for fun) Not even the North Star can be considered true north. You do realize with gravity those living on top of their heads south of the equator do not realize they are actually and truly living life up side down?Now, being the caseWhich North? Jesus referenced His return with from the (wait for it) EASTThis is fun. I like this. But up until the north star, I was serious.” |
| Megan Shaffer,”Isaiah14:13- King James BibleFor thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:” |
| Megan Shaffer,”Jeremiah 51:48-Then heaven and earth and everything in them will rejoice over Babylon, because destroyers from the north will attack it,”” declares the LORD.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Glad you went there, Isaiah 14:13 ? Who said it? not God. Lucifer said it,In his heart Lucifer said….Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!Read thru vs 27Lucifer said that… vs 13 (and we know how his theology turned out)Please tell me you are not taking his word for anything.He says where he will rule from, not where God rules from. He said he would exalt his throne above God’s STARS not God’s THRONE,line upon line. Read with understandingJeremiah 51:48 Babylon is attacked from the north, ok,but that is from Heaven?Heaven and earth rejoices and (everything) in them, God declares it, ok,but God does it from Heaven in the North? – it does not say that, sorry but it does not, try again.God declares the attack but that is as far as you can go.Also one that was referenced earlier,(Just for fun)2 Cor CHAPTER 12.1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;)4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.Caught UP. INTO ParadiseYet we are ON the earth, and Paradise is IN the earth, yet we are caught UP, we are buried 6 ft down in the earth,OK, yeah, prefect picture.?.I hope you can see the issue you have with this now.” |
| Megan Shaffer,Job 37:22 |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Funny, you keep wanting to run scriptures, I think you need to explain your misquoting of the ones you have so far.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”And yet again Job 37:22Fair weather cometh out of the north: with God is terrible majesty. Show me where it says it came from God’s presence because God has His habitation in the north. Have you read this one? Psalms 78:26 He caused an EAST wind to blow in the heaven: and by his power he brought in the SOUTH wind.Look, here is God using a SOUTH wind again. ..Job37:14 Hearken unto this, O Job: stand still, and consider the wondrous works of God.15 Dost thou know when God disposed them, and caused the light of his cloud to shine?16 Dost thou know the balancings of the clouds, the wondrous works of him which is perfect in knowledge?***17 How thy garments are warm, when he quieteth the earth by the south wind?So then until you can explain your misuse of scriptures. Here we stand. … …” |
| Megan Shaffer,”Proverbs 30:4Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Whose hands have gathered up the wind? Who has wrapped up the waters in a cloak? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is the name of his son? Surely you know!” |
| Megan Shaffer,Also written by paul. 2nd Corinthians 12:4 …he was caught up into Paradise |
| Charles Page!,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwAKAFWetns |
| Arthur Hohn,The hell sounds were debunked https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWo6kTsoiv4 |
| Arthur Hohn,but keep seeking the truth my brothers and sisters <3 |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Thank you Arthur Hohn.My thought is, and just a point to ponder. IF, IFIF we could simply drill into it1) the drill bit did not melt – how hot could it be? Ok – so over 2,000 degrees f.Steel molten in a factory is 2500, iron ore is 2750. So what are drillers of the earth’s crust expecting? Education.jlab.org meltingpoint….2) if we could drill into it, what then keeps the souls – spirit beings from escaping?Just my personal thoughts on the matter.” |
| Megan Shaffer,So who are the dead in christ. did they already rise into heaven and will come down back down to the earth then rise up again |
| David Lewayne Porter,”The dead in Christ are the dead saints, dead saved people, dead followers of Jesus, dead redeemed (these are all the same group called different titles).Soul, spirit, body, we are a three fold being.Think about these two sets of verses as you read below; Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Lazarus was taken to Abraham’s bosom/paradise where the righteous dead were held until Christ fulfilled the needed requirements to take their souls to the Father (I know we disagree on that and you think they are so in paradise – I will use your thought here because it works so much better in the next set of scriptures. Matt 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.So why did their souls come back to their bodies from paradise, and why did their spirits come back for God (up there – Eccl)Did you not read to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.This is the same man that said 2 Corinthians 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. So then we are present with the Lord at death in Spirit (and soul if we are Redeemed), yet our bodies are waiting in the grave, that the LAST thing to be redeemed will be our BODIES. (Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body). And our body is not redeemed until the resurrection (there are more than one resurrection):You have already mentioned that paradise – (even though we disagree on where that is now – I will use your words and reference) is where the souls of the saints are now, which is not the grave. So then you imply the body and the soul is not in the same place at (that) time. And the spirit has returned to God (Eccl) since man’s spirit goes (UP).Since Jesus is our example let’s watch Him(All of 1 Cor 15)But for space reasons I will only post the most important verses3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:* Jesus did and was buried, as we shall be one dayJesus arose as we shall one day1 Corinthians 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.* We shall follow Christ, as he had done so shall He do unto us.Vs 35 is an awesome questionHere in is the body. 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:* we do not come out of the grave the way we went in (more of this is explained in the verses that follow within that chapter)42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.* We shall be changed as we exit the grave. There is no reason to stay in the grave.Now I said that to get to what body or Spirits and souls will come back to. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?” |
| Anuroop Sebastian,”For the ones who believe in dispensations, do you agree with The Scofield Reference Bible’s teaching on seven dispensations or Dr. H. L. Willmington’s teaching in nine dispensations?” |
| Anuroop Sebastian,”Thank you, I am Anuroop from Dallas. I am glad to be part of the group…” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Of course we all believe we couldnt be deceived but this time is marked by the greatest deception ever. |
| Megan Shaffer,www.JudahMobile.org |
| David Lewayne Porter,(As far as the scripture in the photo only) Hallelujah!!!But the scripture only. |
| Megan Shaffer,True or False? |
| Rick Wadholm Jr,Ha |
| Rick Wadholm Jr,”False. The Bible is a hodgepodge of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts with all manner of influences from the ancient Near East and the Mediterranean (among others).” |
| Charles Page!,The Holy Spirit will assist us in understanding. |
| Terry Wiles,Typical arrogant gentile messianic response. |
| Rick Wadholm Jr,”Not sure what your comment would even be referring to Terry Wiles, as it seems random in this thread.” |
| Terry Wiles,Lol. To the post by Megan Shaffer. |
| Rick Wadholm Jr,Ah…gotcha. |
| Charles Page!,The Hebrews in Jesus day did not fully comprehend Hebrew. |
| Megan Shaffer,Name one writer who wasn’t hebrew. I’ll wait. Rick Wadholm Jr |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Rick Wadholm Jr,Luke. |
| Charles Page!,Isn’t this a Hebrew symbol? |
| Charles Page!,will there be a link? |
| Charles Page!,”they are good entertainment, ie “”Left Behind””” |
| Link Hudson,Do you really think ‘Left Behind’ was all that entertaining? I think the last one with Nicolas Cage was even less entertaining. It was about landing a plane. |
| Ricky Grimsley,I can watch them just like any other fiction. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”And since Megan lives in FL she is saying she can’t fully comprehend it either.There again scripture prevails:1 Cor 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.IF we are Spirit filled and Spirit lead we are connected to the One that spoke it all in the beginning. We can understand it clearly even though we are not Hebrew. As you have pointed out in other conversations Megan we are not Jews, Israelis, or Hebrews, yet we are precisely of the group (gentile) whom church letters were written to.Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. (Not lead by the “”Hebrew”” document).” |
| Charles Page!,”it convicted me at one time, live in fear as a result. Now I rest in truth!” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Same as any other parable |
| Ricky Grimsley,Just because they are wrong about pretrib doesnt mean they cant make a movie that preaches the gospel. |
| Charles Page!,”yes, Ray Comfort’s gospel if you call that gospel!!!” |
| Wahyu,We’ve all progressed in our walk. As we discuss and banter back and forth it really all comes down to our serving the our Lord and savior. I have no doubt we are all wrong about something. I’m just closer to 100% than most of you 🙂 but honestly one day we’ll all know as we worship together. Pork eaters included |
| Megan Shaffer,He’s the worst. |
| Megan Shaffer,Are we to keep the Holy Feasts of God or the Holidays of Man? |
| David Lewayne Porter,”The Feast of Tabernacles was given and set forth for remembrance of the wilderness wandering. It was set forth under the Mosaic law Pre-Christ, Pre-Messiah. So then the easiest way to answer the Holy Feast of God (and I don’t give precedence to the holidays of man either) is no not according to the Old Testiment, but yes according to the New Testament thru Jesus. (Remember we are not Hebrews/Israeli – we are Gentiles). Do you keep ALL of the LAW because if you offend in one point you are guilty of all. As me being a gentle covered by the New Covenant, which by the way Jesus initiated with his Hebrew/Israelite disciples in the upper room at the Last supper. Do you not Remember the ruling if the Jerusalem Counsel in the book of Acts? These are the same men the Jesus` last command was to go teach Matt 28:18-20 ALL things that I HAVE COMMANDED YOU. You see the law, the psalms, and the prophets they ALL testify of and to Jesus. HE came to fulfill all righteousness. Screen shot to follow. Which shows this prefectly.” |
| David Lewayne Porter, |
| Megan Shaffer,This is a future prophecy. The Torah is our constitution. Is shows us how to live. It prepares us for the kingdom. We are to follow Christ who kept them all. Why do you Christians refuse to obey? |
| Megan Shaffer,If the law was kept perfectly by Christ and we’re told to follow him why would we not do what he does. Didn’t he say be perfect like our father in heaven is perfect? |
| David Lewayne Porter,”You see, the issue is you want us to think as Hebrews because religion started with them (Abraham). But the Hebrews also have to think as a gentile because (all of Romans chap 8 but for nowCHAPTER 8.1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.The law, with all of it’s feasts was to weak for salvation and a relationship with God as He truly desires.” |
| Megan Shaffer,I’m not talking about any religion. Not at all. Matter of fact religion means to control the mind. Look up the definition. God didn’t give us any religions only the devil did. He gave us instructions on how to live. He gave us laws to govern the land we live and handle situations as they come. He gave us the directions to build heaven on earth but I meet so many ppl that reject the law of God not realizing there is only one other choice left. Lawlessness |
| Megan Shaffer,These feasts were not israel’s. They are God’s Feast and I truly believe those in heaven are obedient. |
| Megan Shaffer,He’s talking about the law of sin. You don’t have to sin anymore. You don’t have to live in the flesh anymore. You can live in the spirit. Thy law is spiritual. Doesn’t it say that. Doesn’t it say the flesh is at enmity with the law. If your not keeping the law it’s because one is still living in the flesh. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Did you Meghan keep ALL of the law? In ALL points.Do you keep all the psalms and prophets?For yet they testify to Jesus.He did things that MAN thought was against the law (eating corn out if the field in the sabbath Matt 12:1 Luke 6:1) and those that knew the law so well what did they tell Jesus who fulfilled the law as you said (perfectly)? And yet their law saidDeuteronomy 23:25When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour’s standing corn. And alsoMark 2:27And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: So then Christians are obeying (Prefectly).But if you are trying to keep one point of the law and you can’t keep all them you are in major trouble and jeopardy.James 2:10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. Think about it, Are you able and yet willing to do it all?Even if you are only Jesus ever could. Wisdom, understandingLine upon line precept upon precept.Here a little, there a little. You see you are still on the foundation, it is time to take the next step and continue building the house. 1 Corinthians 3:11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (All of chapter 3)Luke:2017 And he beheld them, and said, What is this then that is written, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner?18 Whosoever shall fall upon that stone shall be broken; but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.You are rejected the complete work of Jesus just as they did in His day. We are told the Old Testament saints looked for our day and freedom in Christ but the generation snubs the complete and total work of Christ.Your post of the returning and reigning King (yes, Jesus said he would go way and return to gather us to where He Went.).Complete work still in process to be (completely MANIFESTED in the natural world).The Christians are obeying. But not in shadows, but in Truth. Hebrews 8:5Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. Hebrews 10:1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. Jesus did not just take away the blood sacrifice This is why the veil was rent as He died. 6 inches thick, top to bottom. Not only to let God’s Spirit out – as if He could be contained, but to let man have a personal relationship with Him. Stop looking into the Holy of Holys from the outside.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Law is Spiritual, correctso then why are you trying to track everything down (jews, israel, 12 tribes) in the flesh?You never answered my question on New Jerusalem being clothed with the righteousness of the saints (not Hebrews, jews, Israelites) saints…. (Gentiles included).If you say the law of (sin) onlyThen explain Hebrews 10:1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. (Read all of Hebrews – Hebrews was written (to the Hebrews) because they kept trying to get back into the law of Moses – (that is why the temple with be rebuilt, the antichrist will defile it and Daniel’s 70th week will start)He was not taking about the law of the flesh (only), the law of sinHe was point blank handing you the short coming if the law given by God to Moses, for you must have also read that the Mosaic law was given for the purpose as to impute sin, sin of the flesh. All of your feast and rules were removed when Christ removed the (curse) of the law, nailing it to the cross.(All that is scripture, you can look it up). With sin and it’s curse being removed why then did they so need the school teacher to continue to show then their sin?Matthew 22:40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. (Which two commands)..Again, address the Jerusalem Counsel for the Gentiles (4 points) did the disciples intentionally set the Gentiles up to sin, fail, and miss an eternity with Father God? Did those that had walked and been taught by Jesus for 3.5 years personally, that in ACTS gave themselves to the study of the Word (Old Testament scriptures) and prayer set forth these guidelines wrongfully?Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. (And God had already shown him the sheet in Acts 10 and 11).” |
| Megan Shaffer,So….we ignore the law?. Yea. Yea. Yea. No more law. Now we are finally free to sin and nobody can say anything. |
| Megan Shaffer,You know nothing about the law. It’s obvious From your statement. |
| Megan Shaffer,If you really want understanding about the law then it’s best to get it from the real sons of Judah. To them was the law given. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBrCrklpzac |
| Megan Shaffer,Yes I keep the law and where I fall my lamb is there for me. But yes I’m facing towards the direction of someone who (wants) to be obedient to everything he says. |
| Megan Shaffer,David Lewayne Porter http://biblehub.com/ezekiel/36-26.htm |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer,”The way your speaking is as if your not trying to get your temple ready to receive his spirit. His will be done. Hiss will is we obey his commandments. Yes Christians are stuck. I hate to tell them but at the end of the bible there is no gate for christians. They can stick with traditional doctrine or challenge what they believe against what is actually written. Anyone can believe on jesus but it says we must believe on him as the scripture hath said. Hath said. We have to go by what’s written. The majority is always wrong when it comes to God. Jesus say his flock is little. Little. Not big. There are over 40,000 different churchs. None preach full obedience to the law. None.” |
| Megan Shaffer,Do you know what a gentile is? |
| Megan Shaffer,You will never understand the book until you realize it’s about God’s son. Israel Israel Israel. Even the disciples knew at some time the rulership of the world will belong to the israelites and those whom support them. |
| Megan Shaffer,Freedom from death. Thou shalt kill. Do you like that law more? |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Megan ShafferYou are either not reading my posts are you are not understandingI HAVE ALREADY Received HIS Spirit And how do I knowActs 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.Which is also the same asActs 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”You are quoting prophets that were fulfilled in Christ. So why are you going around trying to get there on a way that is not available any longer? Do the guys you know appear before God 3 times a year the way the law says? 14 Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year.15 Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt: and none shall appear before me empty:)16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field.17 Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord God. Do we ignore the law, noGalatians 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. And Jesus Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.38 This is the first and great commandment.39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.So then unless the ladies were bringing in sin sacrifices or cleansing after child birth Lev 12:6&8 Lev 15:29 they were not allowed in God’s presence. Ah then were does that leave you.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Romans 11:25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. No gates of the city for Christians, Again – as I have stated and you must not be reading,Romans 11:11I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:Did you not read that also we dint need a gate, the city you are trying to get into as a Hebrew / Israeli is clothed with the righteousness of the saints. We don’t have to enter thru your gates – although we can due to engraffing, we are already there when God finishes with Israel at the end of Revelation. Go back and read my post comparing the bride that city New Jerusalem and her adorning dress to the dress of the CHURCH not Israel THE CHURCH. Revelation of John 19:8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. Ephesians 5:27That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.” |
| Megan Shaffer,On these 2 hang all the law |
| Megan Shaffer,How do you love your neighbor? You don’t kill him. You don’t steal from him. You don’t covet what’s his. You don’t lie to him. You pay him a honest pay. The law shows you how to love. For this is the love of God. That we KEEP His commandments. And guess what? His commandments are not grevious. |
| Megan Shaffer,I hope im not wasting my time and someone is reading this. There are 5 categories of law. The Royal Law. The sacrificial Law. The Ceremonial Law. The Dietary Law. And the judgemental law. Now guess which laws Christ nailed to the cross? |
| Megan Shaffer,The royal law also called the moral law is instructions for princes. Sons of God. How to walk holy and live righteous. No killing no stealing etc. |
| Megan Shaffer,The sacrificial law is the law that tells you what type of sacrifices are used for various times and occassions. Example. Spotless lamb. 1st born. |
| Megan Shaffer,”The dietary law is what Noah learned. What foods you can touch eat or run as a business. How to properly kill the amimal, holy recipes, etc.” |
| Megan Shaffer,The judgemental law tells you how to handle sin. To what degree. It sets up the court system with righteous judgement. At this time there was difficulty in finding mercy for sinners hence only death was produced not life. It told you who to kill hoe to kill. Who To Put In Debt And How To Run The Legal System overall. |
| Megan Shaffer,”The ceremonial law tells you how to celebrate God’s feasts properly. What foods, what times of the years. Who does what. It’s the full blueprint for his feasts. If you want to celebrate with him you can do so. Now you can’t physically travel 3,000 miles away obviously but thats OK because this isn’t just a physical thing. This is spiritual. Set up the feast with your family and invite him in your temple and he will come make his abode with you and your family. It’s sounds crazy I know but it’s not. It’s spiritual. 2 or more.” |
| Megan Shaffer,When Christians are told to stop christmas it hurts even though it’s pagan. That’s how it is with God’s Celebrations. Who convinced us to stop celebrating them knowing they were righteous. Who convinced us to pickup these worldly holidays instead of HolyDays. |
| Megan Shaffer,Yes the gentiles have their salvation right now. Satan is the God of this world. Do you know what salvation is? Uhoh |
| Megan Shaffer,Luke 1:71 – salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us |
| Megan Shaffer,”Psalms53:6- Who will come from Mount Zion to rescue Israel? When God restores His people, Jacob will shout with joy, and Israel will rejoice.” |
| Megan Shaffer,Salvation is rulership. The gentiles rule now until Christ returns. |
| Megan Shaffer,They are rich and famous. Wealthy and powerful. Not us. We are still in bondage. |
| Megan Shaffer,The dry bones are just waking up |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Megan ShafferThink on this concerning Paul and his minstry to Israel; Acts 13:46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. WE TURN TO THE GENTILES and they left ministry to the Hebrews/Isreal.Here are a few simple questions for you, and please answer since you have not so far. (I wonder why you don’t if you have the answers)Saul/Paul was he not a chosen vessel of God to reach the Gentiles, not Israel? – Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: Paul/Saul was he not an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin? Romans 11:1I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.Paul/Saul was he not as far as keeping the LAW, blameless? – Philippians 3:6Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.Yet it was not enough and he had to answer the call of Christ Jesus. Acts 9.*** Paul/Saul became a witness to the Gentiles at the will of God (Acts 9) but due to why? Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. They went to the Gentiles because the Hebrews/Israel just DID NOT GET IT. Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Was that not the case? They(Israel) can’t get it, they don’t want to, you don’t want to.Peter was from Israel, he was a hand chosen disciple of Jesus. He was the one to reveal who Christ and yet he said 2 Peter 3:16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.Hebrews 5:11 of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.And you say those that are not Hebrew can’t understand the Bible because it is a Hebrew document. A lot of the Hebrews don’t get it. It is Hebrew Aramaic and Greek.And it is all inspired by the Spirit of God. You seem to forget that and think it comes totally through the tribes. You can’t discount those that you don’t feel qualify due to “”blood”” line, because the blood of Jesus makes all those acceptable that accept His Sacrifice.Show me where any of the New Testament letters tell us to keep the feast of tabernacles. We were told to keep the (bread and wine) in Lue of the Hebrew Passover by Jesus at the last supper.” |
| Megan Shaffer,Leviticus 23:34- Say to the Israelites: ‘On the fifteenth day of the seventh month the LORD’s Festival of Tabernacles begins. |
| David Lewayne Porter,So you keep it? So you live in tents during that time? |
| Megan Shaffer,”John 7:2- Now the Jews’ feast of tabernacles was at hand. Jesus’ brothers said to him, “”Leave Galilee and go to Judea, so that your disciples there may see the works you do.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”I know your issue, I believe you are actually intimidated or scared of the New Testament letters. I asked where the disciples told us to keep the feast of tabernacles. Post Jesus.You gave me Old Testament law. So then you must keep all the law.Every jot, every tittle.Do you even believe Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah and as such He fulfilled all the Law, psalms and prophets?You must not because you are so trying to fulfill the prophets and the law yourself.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”You can read, that was pre-Jesus’ sacrifice. Jesus was under the law until all was fulfilled.So again I will go slowerShowMeWhereThedisciplesToldUsToKeepTheFeastOftabernacles.And what about that Gal 5 (WOW! ) the circumcision is of no good now.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,So then do you keep the feast of tabernacles personally or are you a pharisee. |
| Megan Shaffer,”For gentiles who plan on going thru one of the gates. “”Thou shalt observe the feast of tabernacles seven days, …& the stranger [or gentile], and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within thy gates”” (Deuteronomy 16:13-14).” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”There you go with the OT again, Can’t you find just one in the NT?Answer no, what you are looking is not thereSo do you keep it or you just trying to convince others to live in the law?” |
| Megan Shaffer,It’s referring to a biblical Hebrew mindset to understand the people and their culture their laws and their ways are very different from the western world’s |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Really try this oneJohn3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.And he told Nicodemus john 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.Show me that in the Old Testament if you believe Jesus is the Christ.” |
| Megan Shaffer,”””And he [Paul] came to Ephesus…When they desired him to tarry longer time with them, he consented not; But bade them farewell, saying, I must by all means keep this feast [of Tabernacles] that cometh in Jerusalem”” (verses 19-21).” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”You did not give a complete reference, book? Chapter?” |
| David Lewayne Porter,Do you keep the feast of tabernacles? Yes or no |
| Megan Shaffer,Messiah fulfilled the law pertaining to the feast. Should we not David Lewayne Porter celebrate also? Celebrate the work he did fulfilling the feasts of tabernacles |
| Megan Shaffer,Of course I did. I do now. |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Deuteronomy 16:16Three times in a year shall all thy males appear before the Lord thy God in the place which he shall choose; in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles: and they shall not appear before the Lord empty:First of you added (tabernacles)Second, then I guess Paul was lost and a sinner because he did not keep the other 2.And acts chapter 19:9 But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.10 And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:So I guess Paul was lost again since he stayed 2 years missing 6 mandated feasts.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,So you go to Jerusalem and live in tents during that time? That is what you said Paul had to do in your reference. |
| Megan Shaffer,No forsake not the assembly. If there are people in your state meet up and enjoy it together. we are family. |
| Megan Shaffer,We will not return to the land until messiah sends his angels. 1948 is the Balfour declaration. Look it up. It’s how revelations 3:9 gave them power. Prophecy says once the children return their will be no more bloodshed. These are gentiles in the land posing as israelites that the Christian world would support them and their agenda. |
| David Lewayne Porter,So then you are not fulfilling the feast of tabernacles as you referenced Paul felt he had to at that time. Are you better than Paul? And you say Christians don’t get it. Are you selective in your obedience? How should anyone follow your led and it is not consistent?That is not being argumentativeThat is to help you out with others. It is not a true witness. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”No more blood shed, which prophecy?” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”And then when, due to Israel’s 70th week has not started yet and is far from over (Dan 9), nor Revelation of John 11:2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.” |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Wahyu,”Where is all this “”we have to keep the law”” coming from? The new testament is perfectly clear on this! Why do people desire bondage so much? Lets go back to Egypt because its better. Not to mention if youre not making 3 trips a year to jeruslem then lm not listening” |
| Megan Shaffer,You have to learn the law over. Whatever they taught you was a lie. You don’t have to make 3 trips anymore. Learn the difference between fulfilled and abolished. 2different words with 2 definitions. |
| Wahyu,The feasts were a foreshadow of Christ but now that he’s been revealed why celebrate the shadow when we can celebrate the substance!!!! |
| Megan Shaffer,How do you celebrate? By breaking the law? Participating in heathen customs and holidays? |
| Megan Shaffer,John. Please tell me you don’t think of God’s Law as bondage |
| Megan Shaffer,I celebrate his feasts. I love them. All of the brothers and sister I know love them. You don’t know a real feast until your enjoyed God’s feasts. But I do know this that many will hate his feasts they will hate his commandments they will hate his son they will hate his sabbath. But they will love the freedom of doing whatever they want. Primarily the traditions of men. |
| Megan Shaffer,But let me ask you this. The feast they just had about winning the war and killing the natives here in america. Did you participate in that feast? John Conger #thanksgiving |
| Megan Shaffer,Anyone interested in the true understanding of the law watch this and increase your knowledge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBrCrklpzac |
| Alan SmithAlan ,John sees it as bondage because Yeshua freed us from being under the law but under grace. |
| Megan Shaffer,He freed us from the law of sin and death. Not the righteous laws. They are righteous. |
| Megan Shaffer,So Let me get this straight. Jesus died so we dont have to keep the law anymore. Then he showed us how to live so we would know what (not to do) lest we also keep the law. So homosexuality is good. Pedophilia is good. I’m confused. We were freed from his feasts so we can go celebrate the feasts of the pagans? |
| Wahyu,The law brought death. His Son (Jesus)brought life. |
| Megan Shaffer,No no no. The law of sin brought death. When the man asked him what must i do to receive eternal life he told him keep the commandments. When John said anyone who says he knows the father but doesn’t keep the commandments is a liar. So if you guys don’t believe in keeping the commandments then i can’t believe anything out your mouth cause your liars. |
| Megan Shaffer,The way I see it. If sin is bondage then Gods law is freedom. How can sin be freedom and God’s law bondage? Do we uphold the law or nulify it? |
| Megan Shaffer,”It’s seems you guys really need to unlearn then relearn. If what u believe is true you have nothing to lose. But I will say this….I don’t know what spirit caused David to write this. Psalms119:44-45 I will always obey your law, for ever and ever. I will walk about in freedom, for I have sought out your precepts.” |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer,Maybe the 86th time would have convinced you. |
| Ricky Grimsley,Lol no one keeps the sabbath. |
| Megan Shaffer,Ahhh. Finally the truth of how u feel comes out. So you don’t believe the bible. The disciples were sabbath breakers and sinners? |
| Megan Shaffer,I did. I know thousands who do. Ricky Grimsley |
| Ricky Grimsley,Please. Unless you dont turn on your lights or you turn off you pilot lights you are kindling fire on the sabbath. No electricity. You dont cook your food and so on. I just aint buying it. |
| Megan Shaffer,”Yes because you were raised that way. If you were raised keeping the sabbath then you wouldn’t stray from it now that your older. You’ve been raised in Babylon but the time has come for you to shed off the old man and become a new man. Living in the image of God’s son. Coldcuts. That’s the answer to sabbath eating. Biblestudy. Sleep. That’s all that’s required on the sabbath. It’s not bondage, it’s freedom. Ive become so free in my life once I returned to his commandments.” |
| Megan Shaffer,The law hes speaking of is the law of sin and death. That’s the law that was bondage. Why would thou shalt not steal be bondage? I love that law. That should rest on the sabbath. I love that law. Thou shalt not kill. I sure do love that law. Tell me again which law you hate or makes you feel like bondage? |
| Wahyu,”Di we have to keep going over acts 15, gal. 5 etc etc etc. And I’m willing to bet your turn lights on on the Sabbath” |
| Wahyu,”How about you post a pic, of your prayer shawl w tassels” |
| Megan Shaffer,If you read esdras you’ll see God sent the tribe of Gad here to america. That’s who the new americans killed. Israelites. Then they celebrate it every year. WakeUp (Satan) is the god of this world. |
| Megan Shaffer,In the Scriptures God told his sons to put fringes on the border of their shirts. |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer,Your missing knowledge brother. I’ve been were you are. I can help you gain this missing knowledge if you truly are trying to serve The Most High John Conger |
| Wahyu,What do you do with all the scriptures in the new testament regarding not keeping the law |
| Megan Shaffer,There are none that’s what I’m trying to explain to you. 2nd peter 3:15-16 |
| Megan Shaffer,People are misunderstanding Paul and going towards lawlessness and destruction. |
| Charles Page!,Interesting read for the Hebrew Nation and Nation of Jahweh http://www.dahorton.com/overview-of-the-black-hebrew…/ |
| Megan Shaffer,”There are not many teachings on the subject, but these guys do a pretty good job. Hope you watch – https://youtu.be/hZBb5gypa2k” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Anyone who thinks they keep the law or even the sabbath need wake up from their hallucination. |
| Megan Shaffer,Sad I wasted my time. |
| Ricky Grimsley,I would keep the sabbath but i just cant give these up. |
| Ricky Grimsley,Its amazing how people can spend so much time studying something and see different stuff. Obviously we cant both be right. |
| Megan Shaffer,The Sabbath is quality time with family and God. That’s the spiritual lesson. Being aligned with the heavenly calendar. Putting God 1st. Not all this legalism. If your Bible is on Kindle are you serious thinking your dad in heaven would be mad? That means you seriously need to get to work on your personal relationship with the son. He loved torah. Kept it and taught it. There was no new testament when these guys were here. The only thing they could teach out of was the old testament. Deuteronomy says if anyone teaches you not to keep the law they are a false prophet and to be stoned. You think Paul walked around Jews teaching don’t keep the law. You guys need to be focused on what laws you do have to keep it and whether or not your truly worshipping the Lord of the sabbath. |
| Wahyu,It also says if you try to be righteous by the law then Christ no longer affects you |
| Megan Shaffer,Christ is the one helping you to be righteous. You can’t do anything yourself. You have to surrender your temple to God’s Holy Spirit. Put on Christ. You keep thinking in the flesh. Have you confessed and been baptized? |
| Megan Shaffer,What ppl do Sunday is what they should be doing the sabbath. Instead of what is written they go by church tradition. Your always gonna do something. It’s about if you do what he says or the world. |
| Megan Shaffer,Think not. Whenever you read anything say to yourself but my master said think not. Think not. Think not. Till heaven and earth pass away. |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer,Oh I understand |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Galatians 3:23-25 KJVS[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.” |
| Megan Shaffer,You were never under the school master that’s why you don’t understand my speech. |
| Megan Shaffer,”This is what your not understanding about your bible teacher’s, your college professors, and your book writing theologians Acts 15:21- For the law of Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath.””” |
| Megan Shaffer,They are not raised and taught the law. They are taught the n.t. and those who do teach them about the old testament law are in fact the ancient enemies of God. Satan has ministers. As God of this world the majority of american ministers belong to him thru what’s called a 501c3 |
| Megan Shaffer,The enemy would make sure the law wasn’t read in the church. You better believe it. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Im not one of those enemies. I know all about 501 c 3 stuff. Im against churches being them. As far as the law, i study the OT to help me understand the NT. However, again if you are gonna tell me to keep the law…..you first.” |
| Megan Shaffer,Been in this truth 10yrs already. Here to help others with their walk. |
| Megan Shaffer,”After increasing knowledge you can help bring your church closer to the church of the Disciples&Apostles Acts 13:15 – After the reading from the Law and the Prophets, the leaders of the synagogue sent word to them, saying, “”Brothers, if you have a word of exhortation for the people, please speak” |
| Charles Page!,”Jesus said “”I will build MY church”” not my church HIS church.” |
| Megan Shaffer,How long has it been his church? Acts 7:38 tells us its the same church. Church is an invented word. It was originally the elders of the tribes of israel. Together they represented the church. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”MeganYou stated and correctly so that the 12 disciples would judge the 12 tribes, so then where do the 24 (twenty four) elders come from?, because Jesus never told them they would judge the church. Even with your definition of the church and the elders of Israel you are 12 elders short.You also forget that Jesus saidJohn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.Other sheep, Not of this fold.Interesting.” |
| Megan Shaffer,The 12tribes are the church. Please don’t subscribe to replacement theology. |
| Megan Shaffer,The gentiles become grafted into the 12tribes just like in the past. Malachi 3:6 |
| David Lewayne Porter,And without keeping the law |
| David Lewayne Porter,So where do your other 12 elders come from? |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Megan Shaffer,There are a handful of ppl who said they were the messiah. But the scripture says many shall come in my name. Saying I’m am Christ. Who came in the name of christ? Claiming to know him and the father. Who teach the law is done away. Saying they are like christ? #christian. This scripture is talking about lawless christians. |
| Wahyu,Are you saying you reject the new testament teachers that taught we are no longer under the law? |
| Megan Shaffer,Teachers today shouldnt be teaching. The disciples never taught that. They would have been stoned if they did. Many don’t know the books they studied so it will be harder for them to understand. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”They did teach that,read ALL of Hebrews Jesus is better than the LAW, a better covenant, a better high priest.All of Gal 5 – told them not to be Circumcised.Have you even read the New Testament other than Revelation?” |
| Megan Shaffer,”Re study acts 21:21 – They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs” |
| Megan Shaffer,The topic isn’t should you be circumcised. The topic is does circumcision bring salvation. No it does not. If a man gets circumcised it’s because he knows it was a part of the covwnant. He’ll desire it spiritually. The physical may not but the spiritual will. Besides a man would get further dealing with judahites and israelites if he was. |
| Megan Shaffer,”They have been informed that you teach all the Jews who live among the Gentiles to turn away from Moses, telling them not to circumcise their children or live according to our customs. If this was true Paul would have been stoned.” |
| Megan Shaffer,”Paul isn’t a hypocrite. He himself personally circurcised timothy. Read Acts 16:1-3 (NASB)1 Paul came also to Derbe and to Lystra. And a disciple was there, named Timothy, the son of a Jewish woman who was a believer, but his father was a Greek, 2 and he was well spoken of by the brethren who were in Lystra and Iconium. 3 Paul wanted this man to go with him; and he took him and (circumcised) him because of the Jews who were in those parts, for they all knew that his father was a Greek.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”I know Paul did circumcise Timothy, against his willGal 2:3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:explain Gal 5 go read it ALL before you think you know what it says. And by the way there is another place Paul speaks out of turn for God. And tell us he is doing so in the text.” |
| Megan Shaffer,Paul has got you stuck. You need to keep away from Paul until your ready. Do you understand he was a master at torah? |
| Megan Shaffer,Paul and Timothy will be traveling and preaching. Did circumcision bring salvation? No. Was it forbidden? No. Understand this. In the line of work Paul and Timothy were in they could not let his uncircumcised become a stumbling blocks for Jews or those whom knew torah. Timothy could not lie. If they saw he was mixed that would be their 21st question. Was he curcumcised. Of what tribe does he descend. Their dealing with torah raised israelites. Not ignorant no law knowing heathen. When it says Greeks it’s not talking about Alexander the greek. It’s talking about the israelites who were conquered by the greeks. Just like negroes became African Americans and started speaking English and taking on American culture and traditions and holidays etc. The israelites became greeks. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Paul does not have me stuck, the torah has you stuck, What makes you think I am stuck with Paul? .You have not read where he spoke out of turn and told us in his writings that he was doing so?” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Your point is hollow. Galatians 5 He casts off fleshly circumcision.And you still missed the other two feasts that Paul did not keep.Either way your explanations leave more holes than you try to fill. Paul after he left ministry to the Israelites and turned to the Gentiles did not keep the (3) three commanded feast from the torah, now did he?You also did not comment on my statement earlier about the only times women were allowed to approach God under torah law.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Good night, I am preaching in 8 hrs” |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| Charles Page!,that meme works well for John MacArthur and the Lordship Salvationist! They are slamming easy believism.All about works salvation ala Kirk Cameron and Ray Comfort. |
| Megan Shaffer,Faith Produces Works. NO works? NO faith!! |
| David Lewayne Porter,But works alone do not get you there. |
| Megan Shaffer,”Blessed are they that do hiscommandments, that they may have right to thetree of life, and may enter in through the city gates” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Correct, so where does it say (of the 12 tribes only) in your reference” |
| David Lewayne Porter, |
| Megan Shaffer,You see the gentiles only get the leaves. |
| Megan Shaffer,The food on the tree gives immortality |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Wrong, screen shot John 22:2 -12 fruits each month, 22:14 all obeying get to eat The leavings for the healing of the nation’s (not tribes), does not say this is all the Gentiles get.” |
| David Lewayne Porter, |
| Wahyu,”David you’re right on all accounts. The new testament makes it perfectly clear we are not required to keep the law. Gal. 5:6-For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. 1 cor. 7: 18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.Phil 3:. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh col.2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:.2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespassesOver and over We meet these who say e should follow the law but when confronted slays have done reason that they don’t follow all of it. Some excuse to pick and choose which they feel should be kept. Scripture I’d not ambiguous about this. I’m done. Wish you all the best” |
| Megan Shaffer,Why would he say if a man be called uncircumcised let him not be circumcised but still went on to circumcise Timothy. That means u don’t understand what he’s talking about. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Its hard to hear the “”we should follow the law”” argument from people who dont follow the law.” |
| Megan Shaffer,Why do we need to be forgiven our trespasses if there is no more law? Where there is no law there is no sin. |
| Megan Shaffer,”The word “law†occurs 223 times in the New Testament of the King James Version. The word “ordinances,†which means law occurs seven times.Because of verses like Colossians 2:14 nearly the entire Christian world believes that the Ten Commandments are no longer in effect. This verse says, “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;â€Paul says in Romans 3:31, “Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.†A law that is established is certainly not abolished or nailed to the cross.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”The ten commandments (9 of them) still do exist and apply.They are referred to in the New Testament of people knew how to read. Jesus covered that with twoLove thy neighbor, love thy God (paraphrased).Also Jesus said John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.The one that is not referenced after Jesus death on the cross is the keeping of the sabbathRom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.You see, all your misunderstandings and questions are answered when the entire Bible is rightly divided 2 Tim 2:14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.You just dont use the Old Testament help explain the background of the New Testament you use the New Testament to shed light into the Old. The OT is the foundation, the NT is building and fulness as being lighted through Jesus the light of THE WORLD, not just the light of Israel.” |
| Megan Shaffer,”16 Do you not know that if you present yourselvesnto anyone as obedient slaves,3 you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But othanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed(Torah), 18 and, having been set free from sin, rhave become slaves of righteousness. (Romans 6)” |
| Megan Shaffer,For example they gave Sunday as a day of worship. They gave it. GOD didn’t command it. It’s a doctrine brought out by man. A law established by man not scripture. They that obey are slaves to the power that established that law to keep sunday. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Remember the Sabbath (Sabboth).I did not say Sunday, I said sabbath. I really do wish you would read my posts correctly.God did give the Sabbath to Moses (2xs) on Mt Sinai on the tablets of stone.My point stands as I originally stated.You really do need to read and understand what I am saying, and not what you think I said. I speak straight forward and say exactly and precisely what I mean and intend because spoken or not Matthew 12:36But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment, or intended in the heart Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,There has always been some kind of law. Just ask adam and lucifer. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Because Until you believe in your heart, and confess with your mouth, the blood has not be applied and the sacrifice through Jesus does you no good. It is not just applied to all (as the sin provision of the Mosaic law was not applied until you brought your sacrifice which you personally selected out of the flock).Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.We must believe and apply it before it takes effect personallyJohn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.But if we don’t personally accept Him and APPLY His sacrifice for us then18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”All of Col 2 answers this question for youBut here is the main part for this conversation8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.** 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.*** 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;! *** ! 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.*** 16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:Did you notice Holy-days? Also sabbath days?” |
| Megan Shaffer,I’m telling you the traditions of God not men |
| Megan Shaffer,I’m not using Greek or American philosophy I’m using precepts to bring understanding |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Line upon Line. Here a little, there a little.” |
| Megan Shaffer, |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Revelation of John 5:9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; Not just your Israelites.” |
| Megan Shaffer,You have to understand the context in which Paul speaks. He is very difficult to understand. He wrote letters to the leaders of gatherings and later these letters were discovered and published. This is how they became epistles. The Torah is the instructions from God to man. Dueteronony tells you if any man speaks not according to this word he is a false prophet and a liar. Paul was not a liar or false prophet what happening is ppl are not understanding his writings. Your use of them demonstrates this. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”I fully understand. You are not dealing with a novice. And he is not as difficult to understand as you think. The Old Testament does not explain Paul’s writings, Paul’s writings explain the shadow of the OT being fulfilled in the New Testament IN Christ Jesus. (COMPLETELY fulfilled in Jesus).the OT is a shadow, a guide, a means to an end to lead us to or need of Jesus. That is what Hebrews shows us IF – when you read it completely through chap1-13.As far as PaulThere are times he spoke for himself and not for God, and he was smart enough to tell us that he was doing it. Have you not read that, or was it not so easily understood for you?You did not answerHave you received the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues?” |
| Megan Shaffer,If he was not difficult then why would Peter say so in 2nd Peter 3:15- |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Peter was a fisherman, he did not have the education to Paul’s level of discourse. BUT… (His quote was – as you referenced 2 Peter 3:15 account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.He did not say they were hard to understand, he said they were hard “”which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest””. The issue was not about the writing but those that were unlearned and unstable. And they then trying to “”wrest”” or fight their way through to understanding on their own. Add to that Hebrews 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.(Again it is not what is taught but the hearer is unskilful IN the WORD). Those who understand have through USE – EXERCISED to discerning not only good but also evil – you could say falsehood and truth.” |
| Wahyu,He circumcised tomoyhy so the Jews would listen to him. It even says |
| Wahyu,In him (Jesus Christ) you are complete…… |
| Megan Shaffer,Yes he submitted to the law to not let it becoming a stumbling block from them delivering the good news. But at the same time he understood if a person wasn’t circumcised that wouldn’t stop them from qualifying for the blood of christ. As long as they were obedient to the commands that remained. The torah is the consitution. |
| Charles Page!,pick and choose laws!!! |
| Megan Shaffer,No fulfilled and not fulfilled. All is not fulfilled. |
| Megan Shaffer,Do you need a spotless lamb? No that’s fulfilled. |
| Charles Page!,All laws and prophets fulfilled! all that waits is God to push the destruct button! turn on the sudden heat! |
| Megan Shaffer,”Isaiah49 with the dry bones of ezekiel is not fulfilled. The reason there are 12gates to the kingdom is because the 12 sons of Jacob return by the power of the spirit. 144,000 of them.” |
| Charles Page!,All laws and prophets fulfilled! all that waits is God to push the destruct button! turn on the sudden heat! |
| David Lewayne Porter,AaAaAamen my brother. (Basically) |
| Terry Wiles,Anti semantic |
| Link Hudson,”I heard the Khazar Hypothesis doesn’t have that strong of evidence for it, that maybe 5% of dna is from there among ashkenazi” |
| Megan Shaffer,The (prophecy based theory) is labeled anti semitic. The humor is that the people discussed are not shemitic themselves and the people pushing the theory claim to be shemitic themselves. How can shemitic ppl be anti shemitic? Please explain. Terry Wiles |
| Terry Wiles,”How can minorities be racist? Same way; in the words of Rabbi Lasowski one of the oldest living Jewish survivors of Hitlers attempt to kill him. The humor is that some are too blind to see and hear what the eternally famous Jewish rabbi tried to teach them when He walked on the earth, Megan Shaffer. I do not claim to be Semitic but can recognize anti Semitic when I see it. I do claim to be grafted in.” |
| Megan Shaffer,Im also grafted in. But what exactly are we grafted into?. Our messiah told us the devil would try to deceive us. How can we not look for the deception. How can we not question these people claiming to be the tribe of judah? Rev3:9 |
| Terry Wiles,I know in whom I believe. It sounds like you are still questioning. They that seek Him will find Him…. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Megan ShafferThere in is the issue ((how can -WE-)) not question these people claiming to be the tribe of JUDAH.Don’t you mean the 12 tribes of Israel? and those to whom this was written,, vs 7 And to the angel of ((the church in Philadelphia)) write;Revelation of John 3:9Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Your are trying to do the work that is up to God. He said in the scripture that you referenced “”I will make them”” 2xs He said that He would do it. All that the church was told to do during all of this is “”vs 11 Behold, I come quickly: [[hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown]].12 [[Him that overcometh]] will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.13 He that hath an ear, [[let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches]].I truly believe that you are concerned about the wrong – or less important issues.” |
| Megan Shaffer,According to revelations 2:9 we should be looking for a ppl claiming to be shemitic. But infact are canaanites. Now we know from biblical history esau mixed his seed with the canaanites making him no longer shemitic. Could this be who revelations 3:9 is talking about. The doctrine of identity theft is a deep and interesting topic if anyone is willing to explore it using precepts and history |
| Link Hudson,”says nothing about being Canaanite in that verse. A lot of people interpret that spiritually, since he that is a Jew is also circumcised in the heart, and these persecutors would not have been.” |
| Megan Shaffer,I have a few books still available with all the research one would need. Visit JudahMobile.org |
| Carl Murphy,^^agreed |
| Charles Page!,”Steve, you don’t know the coming of the Lord from a hole in the ground.” |
| Judd Net,We are officially ONE more Christmas closer to the #RAPTURE |
| Terry Wiles,Yea |
| Judd Net,well at least Terry Wiles is excited about the #Rapture 🙂 |
| Terry Wiles,Prepared. Expecting. And serving faithfully. |
| Judd Net,Rapture ready and full with cookies (theologically speaking) |
| Judd Net,”Christ came FROM heaven so we can go TO heaven 🙂 But wait, there’s more: if Christ was raptured BEFORE the Tribulation so shall we… Ricky Grimsley John Conger Rick Wadholm Jr Alan N Carla Smith” |
| Wahyu,Haha what? The man child is the first fruit right? |
| Judd Net,”It only makes sense that Jesus risen first from the dead would be raptured first as well. It has always been hidden right before our eyes “”Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.”” Acts 1:9 But wait, did KJV actually said Jesus “”was taken up”” ?” |
| Wahyu,”Um, who doesn’t believe he was the original resurrected. …? He went first so we could follow” |
| Judd Net,”but wait, did Luke actually use the Original Word: á¼Ï€Î±Î¯Ïω meaning to lift up like lift up eyes; like in “”in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye”” (1 Cor.15:52) #ohGLORY” |
| Judd Net,”BUT behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner – in what like manner? In the manner of being taken up before the Great Tribulation? And why, if not to take the church with Him to heaven up before the Great Tribulation? #illflyawayohglory” |
| Wahyu,That’s a huge stretch. Because Jesus was taken up means pretrib? Lol ok you win |
| Judd Net,well John Conger Jesus was taken before the tribulation right? |
| Link Hudson,”If your argument is that the angels said that Jesus would return like he left, and since He left before the tribulation, He must return before the tribulation… that’s a pretty lame argument. Jesus also left before they shot JFK. Did He come back in the early 1960’s or before?” |
| Judd Net,No. My argument was that IF Jesus was raptured before the tribulation so shall the church. Pls re-read carefully what I wrote b/c seems you are not doing too good with your arguments tonight Link Hudson |
| Judd Net,ready you are – raptured you get Rick Wadholm Jr Ricky John |
| Wahyu,I hope you’re right and I’m wrongbut then again I hope Carlton Pearson is right about the doctrine of inclusion but I don’t have much faith in it 🙂 |
| Judd Net,ready you are not – left behind you get… |
| Judd Net, |
| Ricky Grimsley,Ok pretribbers. Please explain how 2 thessalonians 2 doesn’t destroy your argument. Post in your own words. Not some some ridiculous 47 page cut and paste straw man argument. |
| Terry Wiles,Because it follows 1 Thessalonians and does not stand alone. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”1 thessalonians doesnt put the rapture in any order of events and it calls the rapture the “”day of the lord””. Then we all see in 2 Thessalonians 2 “”that day”” cant come until the antichrist is revealed.” |
| Terry Wiles,I knew you wouldn’t get it. |
| Ricky Grimsley,Guess not. I have heard it all. If you look at all the scriptures…..pretrib just isnt reasonable. |
| Wahyu,Lol yeah Ricky. |
| Melvin Harter,”2 Thess 2:7,8 is your answer.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”The “”he”” that gets taken away is nit the church. Everyone in this post but me would say we are the bride of christ. If it said she that letteth I would believe you. The “”he”” isnt the holy ghost either other wise people could be saved or sealed after and they are. Read the the verses again and substitute your words.1. I beseech you by the rapture and second coming Dont be shaken that the day of the lord (which starts with the rapture 1thess. 5:2) is at hand. 3. That day will not come until the great apostasy and till the antichrist is revealed (abomination of desolation). 6 i believe the “”he”” is michael At this time he quits holding back the mystery of iniquity” |
| Melvin Harter,”Who is the One who protects us from some crazy person who tries to kill us? It is the Holy Ghost. A backslidden, cold & worldly church has no power against the power of the evil one. Only when we have the power of the Holy Ghost will we be over comers. Read 2 Thess 2:7&8 again my brother.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,If the Holy Ghost gets taken away in a pretrib rapture how do the 144000 and their converts come to jesus. How do the 2 witnesses do their miracles. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Wow, really They are sealed byRev 7:2-3Who has the seal of God on his hand?The Jews during that time will be under Daniel’s 70th week Dan 9. Not under that full free working of the Spirit Luke 23:31For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry? Jesus stared the green tree which continues through the church age. The 70th week starts and brings in the dry tree yet again.How did they come to salvation while Jesus was on the earth and he technically was functioning under the OldTestament and the Mosaic law in order to fulfill all righteousness?The Holy Spirit desended upon Jesus “”and remained””.So then the Spirit of God has always been on earth (since Gen 1) and with man, but not to the extent and the personal revelation/relationship, and indwelling that we have now. So then the two witness, How did the prophets of Ole – in the Old Testament work wonders and miracles.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”They are sealed in revelation 7 but pretribbers believe the rapture happens in chapter 4 so i dint see your point. And who got saved before jesus died and went to hell to preach to them. Jesus told peter…who apparently wasnt saved yet?Luke 22:32 KJVS[32] But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Jesus did not go to hell. He went to paradise. Read what He told the thief on the cross. Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Peter was told””When thou art converted””Convert01994Greek 01994 epistrepho ep-ee-stref’-o from 1909 and 4762; to revert (literally, figuratively or morally):–come (go) again, convert, (re-)turn (about, again). see GREEK for 1909 see GREEK for 4762Come or return again. Revert. Go again.He was saved, transgressed and failed, and was restored – converted.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,I know where he went. Upper sheol Abraham’s bosom paradise. Whatever. Still in the heart of the earth where hell is |
| David Lewayne Porter,Where hell is yes.But not hellas you original stated. Do words have meaning? |
| Ricky Grimsley,Yes words have meaning. It wasnt heaven….it was called prison wasnt it. Satan had the keys of death hell and the grave. It wasnt heaven. So it was technically hell |
| David Lewayne Porter,”LolNot 3 keysNo keys of death hell and the graveKeys of death and hellGo read it, don’t trust men’s words or your memory. Revelation of John 1:18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.We need to make sure we know personally that what we believe and teach is actually in the Bible.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,We believe the same thing. You are just arguing to to argue. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”No,I am trying to get you to understand that words have meaning and by us not intentionally stating what we believe we do a disjustice to our testimony, the Gospel, and those looking for Truth and answers. If you take it any other way, I am sorry that you took it that way.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”So this means what? Does it not say hell? Acts 2:27 KJVS[27] Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Be right if you are going to be condescending |
| David Lewayne Porter,”Jesus said paradise, so you discount the Messiah (ok).IF you propose hell and Paradise is the same then you must again remember Jesus’ words where in the heart of the earth there is a separation from the torment and flames “”hell””, from the comfort of “”Paradise – Abraham’s bosom””. Luke 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.Now as far as you and being right with Acts 27, Acts quotes from the Old TestamentPsalms 16:10For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Acts 2:27 Hell – Greek 0008686 haides hah’-dace from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; properly, unseen, i.e. “”Hades”” or the place (state) of departed souls:–grave, hell. see GREEK for 1 see GREEK for 1492So then, is the grave – hell?Ps 16:10H7585Original: ש××ל ש××ולTransliteration: she’oÌ‚l she’oÌ‚lPhonetic: sheh-ole’BDB Definition:sheol,underworld,grave, hell, pitthe underworldSheol – the OT designation for the abode of the deadplace of no returnwithout praise of Godwicked sent there for punishment*** righteous not abandoned to it. ***of the place of exile (figuratively)of extreme degradation in sinOrigin: from H7592TWOT entry: 2303cPart(s) of speech: Noun FeminineStrong’s Definition: From H7592; hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranian retreat), including its accessories and inmates: – grave, hell, pit.Now why did the prophets say that He would not leave His soul in hell? Because His soul was not in hell, it shows keeping Him from even going there at all. By the definition above – the righteousness not abandoned to it. Jesus’ Word on the cross to the thief. Not allowed to see corruption corruption 078457845 shachath shakh’-ath from 7743; a pit (especially as a trap); figuratively, destruction:–corruption, destruction, ditch, grave, pit. see HEBREW for 07743Simply, the grave?I am amazed you have not drawn the comparison of this verse and the valley of Gehenna where the bodies of the disease/infected, thieves, and outcasts were thrown at death and burned to where the flame was never extinguished.This is why Joseph of Arimathaea in Matt 27: 57 and following went (and had to) go beg the body of Jesus vs 57 when the even was come, there came a rich man of Arimathæa, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus’ disciple: 58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. 59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed.Also Luke 23:50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he wasa good man, and a just: 51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathæa, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on. 55 And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.Thus Joseph of Arimathaea fulfilled God the Father’s prophecy of not leaving the “”soul”” of Jesus in hell to see “”corruption”” in Acts 2:27 quoted from Psalms 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Isa 53:9Soul05315. – body, ,,5315 nephesh neh’-fesh from 5314; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental):–any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it. see HEBREW for 05314My brother, I make a point of not being wrong “”unable to give a defense of my belief, and the reason of my Hope”” when I state something,if I am not sure I ask it in the form of a question.Now, I am being condescending, my brother,.,…” |
| Ricky Grimsley,How do you remove something that is everywhere. If i make my bed in hell behold you are there? |
| Ricky Grimsley,Read 1 thessalonians again where paul calls the rapture the day of the lord. Then study the day of the lord and you will see. |
| Melvin Harter,How do you explain Acts 1? When Jesus said they must tarry for the Holy Ghost because when He comes … But He was already here. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”John 14:16-18 KJVS[16] And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; [17] Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. [18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,If you believe the spirit leaves…. Then who draws and saves people? |
| Judd Net,The CHURCH leaves. The Spirit is always here – at least that’s the Pentecostal belief. Nothing happens without the Spirit… |
| Melvin Harter,The Spirit goes back to like He was before the Day of Pentecost. He will only come upon certain people. His Dispensation as we know it is over. |
| Judd Net,Cant limit the Holy Ghost to a dispensation except if you are cessationist. The Pentecost teaching is that the Holy Spirit has been on earth since the creation Genesis 1:2 |
| Ricky Grimsley,The holy spirit is everywhere if you believe in omnipresence? |
| Wahyu,”I’ve heard the old “”holy ghost leaves”” from an old COG preacher. I rejected it then also. Also can anyone explain how the 144000 are the first fruitsto God if millions have already been resurrected” |
| Melvin Harter,”Yes, but God Almighty came in the cool of the day and had fellowship with Adam & Eve until they sinned, which then created a separation between them. Jesus came in 4 BC and fulfilled God’s plan to restore fellowship with mankind. The Holy Spirit came in 29 AD the Day of Pentecost. He stays here and implements God’s plan in the hearts of men. When He leaves, He takes the saints with Him according to 2 Thess 2:7-8.” |
| Judd Net,”So how was the child in Mary OF the HOLY GHOST if he wasn’t here? How did John the Baptist leap moved by the Holy Ghost; How did the Spirit descended as a dove at Jordan River, etc.?” |
| Melvin Harter,”We live in a day when we should see great revivals and miracles because this is the time for the Holy Ghost. Yet, much of the church is not used by the Spirit.” |
| Terry Wiles,The greatest miracle is the salvation of lost people which is the primary work of the Holy Spirit who baptizes us into Christ. (1 Cor 12). I thank God we see that happen weekly. |
| Judd Net,Spirit has to be on earth to draw sinners to salvation… |
| Ricky Grimsley,”The only “”he”” that fits in he that withholdeth is michael the archangel. Most people that assume the church is the bride of christ so not a he. The holy spirit is obviously still at work here in the tribulation. If you read in daniel and put it together with revelation you can see that michael quits restraining on earth and goes to fight satan in heaven.” |
| Judd Net,DAKE says the CHURCH (as the Body of Christ) is he that withholdeth |
| Wahyu,Oh well if dake says it lol |
| Ricky Grimsley,Dake is wrong. |
| Ricky Grimsley,He was wrong about pretrib too |
| Melvin Harter,Dr Melvin Harter says the Holy Spirit is the Restrainer and not the church. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”True,butwhen the Holy Spirit is pulled back from restraining; the Church must be removed (because the two are linked with the Holy Spirit being our Comforter) and not leaving us Fatherless. He must deal in the green tree while we are here (Luke 23:31For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?)Although the Holy Spirit will be here during the dry time – (the great tribulation – Jacob’s trouble) those seeking Him will have to start the old temple worship under Daniel’s 70th week. When they see that is not working and the abomination of desolation is preformed they will seek the Christ the Messiah in the way He has always desired. At that point He will return for His people.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Dr melvin harter should reconsider how salvation work. Without the spirit drawing nothing happens. |
| Melvin Harter,Lol |
| Judd Net,:) hard for the Spirit to draw you if you just eat all cookies and the whole ham 🙂 |
| Melvin Harter,”The time to reach vast millions of people is right now because this is the time allocated by God for the Holy Spirit to do His work. All that is needed for the Spirit to work is holy, sanctified men & women to dedicate themselves to the Holy Spirit.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,Amen |
| Jim Price,”So for you haven’t dealt with Mt. 24: 34-35, which seems at first reading to say that all these things happened in the generation that Jesus was on the earth.” |
| Alan SmithAlan ,and since it didn’t (at first reading);what would your second or subsequent reading tell you that vs 34-35 are saying? |
| Melvin Harter,”First & Second Thessalonians are Advent Books, which means the “”Coming of the Lord.”” The coming of Jesus Christ for His Church, commonly known as the Rapture, was preeminent in the life of the early church. When they greeted one another, they would say, “”Maranatha”” meaning, “”the Lord Cometh.”” The first NT book written was not the Gospel of Matthew, but First Thessalonians. Why? Because since First Thessalonians deals with the rapture, that was certainly on their minds.” |
| Judd Net,perhaps Mt. 24 and not 14 was meant above? |
| Ricky Grimsley,Amen. Work while it is day…. |
| Judd Net,There’s substantial evidence James was written around 50 A.D. before any other NT book. Of course the actual recording vs. the circulation of oral pericopes are two completely different things |
| Ricky Grimsley,No scripture teaches an imminent return. 2 Thessalonians was written tell them that they werent already in the tribulation. |
| Melvin Harter,What???? |
| Ricky Grimsley,What do you mean ? Read 2 thessalonians 2. Paul is explaining to them that the day of the lord is not here yet and gives them signs preceding it |
| Wahyu,sure seems to me that a lot of the arguments for pretrib are ideological. Not scriptural |
| Melvin Harter,What???? |
| Ricky Grimsley,Lets talk about the day of the lord which paul uses to refer to the rapture. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 KJVS[2] For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.The day of the lord…doesn’t come until after a great falling away and the antichrist is revealed according to paul. 2 thessalonian 2? |
| Judd Net,Ricky Grimsley Matthew 24:44 Therefore be you also ready: for in such an hour as you think not the Son of man comes. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”1 Thessalonians 5:4-5 KJVS[4] But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.” |
| Judd Net,”Matthew 25:13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.” |
| Judd Net,”””Christ could come at any moment. I believe that with all my heart—not because of what I read in the newspapers, but because of what I read in Scripture.”” John MacArthur https://www.gty.org/resources/print/articles/A368″ |
| Melvin Harter,”Further explanation is given by Paul in verses 6-8, “And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:â€2 Thessalonians 2:6-8The “”he”” in verse 6 relates to the anti-Christ; whereas the “”he”” in verse 7 relates to the Holy Spirit. And verse 8 states, “”“And THEN SHALL that Wicked be revealed…””” |
| Judd Net,”The pretribulation rapture is the only view that allows for the rapture to be imminent in its timing. All the other views require a number of prophetic occurrences to take place before the rapture can be declared imminent. To be looking for the imminent return of Christ, you have to believe in a pre-trib rapture. http://www.raptureready.com/rr-imminency.html” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Christs return is not imminent. |
| Wahyu,”But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.1 Thessalonians:5:4″ |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Amos 3:7 KJVS[7] Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Study the day of the lord people. |
| Melvin Harter,”I believe that Christians will go in the rapture of the church as Christ returns for His saints, which is imminent. I also believe that Christians will go through the Great Tribulation just as many state. However, let me explain my position. Saints that are sanctified and living a godly life will go in the rapture; whereas, Christians who have compromised their faith and have no standards whatsoever, who are a worldly people, are lukewarm, cold and indifferent to the Holy Spirit, to God and His Word, WILL NOT go in the rapture, but will be left behind. The scripture declares “”Unto them that LOOK FOR HIM shall He appear the second time unto SALVATION (refers to the rapture). If you are not looking for Him to come at anytime, and thinking His return is certainly not imminent, and believing every Christian will go through the GT, then it is definitely so, at least for you. However, it is not for me. Jesus is coming very soon. Anyone who has studied the Bible and knows its prophetical aspect will know that prophecies are being fulfilled right before our eyes as we watch Fox News. Every dollar I raise, every sermon I preach, will be to warn the people to pray and get sanctified and filled with the Holy Ghost because time is short and the coming of Christ is imminent. Sorry, I didn’t mean to give you all a sermon but this message is heavy upon my heart. God bless everyone of you.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,But how can you back up what you believe with scripture? |
| Melvin Harter,”Brother, I have given you scripture. There are many more scriptures as well. “”Unto you (the Christian) are troubled (is the Devil troubling you with worries and fears and struggles in your faith?), rest with us (our rest relates to being with Christ in heaven).””“Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,â€2 Thessalonians 1:6-7” |
| Melvin Harter,There are many scriptures to back up what I have stated. |
| Ricky Grimsley,That scripture says when jesus comes with his angels (2nd coming) the there will be tribulation? |
| Melvin Harter,”I think something to be considered is the fact that if I am correct, then you lose big time. If you are correct (which I do not believe so), what have I got to lose. Nothing.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,So you believe like perry stone…that if i wrong about pretribb that i wont go even if i live a holy life? |
| Melvin Harter,”Ricky, it says, “”rest with us”” so if you are correct, exactly when do you say the rapture will occur?” |
| Ricky Grimsley,At least five months after the midpoint of daniels 70th week. The tribulation wont actually be 7 years because it will be cut short for the elects sake. Whatever time it is cut short will be returned to satan to tempt again after the millennial reign. |
| Melvin Harter,”All I did Ricky is to quote God’s word, “”Unto them that look for Him…”” Are you looking for Him? Or are you thinking He cannot come right away? You have to answer that question yourself. Furthermore, I do not know Perry Stone’s position.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,He teaches pretrib is for overcomers and the the tribulation will perfect the rest. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”I look for jesus everyday because every breath could be my last. However, i know that jesus can not return until the antichrist is revealed. How many might fall away if i am right and the tribulation starts but know rapture. People could lose heart.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Watch this video and see what you think. Its an honest study with many scriptures but looking at the celestial event of the day of the lord. http://youtu.be/JV2txxxdVEQ |
| Melvin Harter,”If that is Stone’s position, I would not necessarily adhere to that. Sorry.” |
| Melvin Harter,So you believe no Christian will go through the Great Tribulation itself? |
| Ricky Grimsley,Its just a video about the bible. Its not like if you listen to another viewpoint the antichrist will posses you. |
| Ricky Grimsley,I believe that we will suffer but not god’s wrath. We are not appointed to wrath. The first part if the tribulation is the just the birth pangs. Luke 21 matthew 24 mark 13 rev 6 all follow the same pattern. |
| Ricky Grimsley,We are not appointed to god’s wrath but people are suffering every where right now. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”What does the “” day of the lord”” mean to you?” |
| Melvin Harter,”I have often wondered what those who think all Christians will go through the Great Tribulation, exactly when does the rapture take place with them? During the GT, Christians will have to give their head (beheaded just like what is occurring in the Middle East). So post-tribulation people, according to your theology, exactly when is the rapture suppose to occur?” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Sometime at least 5months after the midpoint because the fifth trumpet judgement lasts five months. Then the rapture will be imminent. This video explains alot. http://youtu.be/JV2txxxdVEQ |
| Ricky Grimsley,The prewrath position is awesome. Look into it. God has not appointed us to wrath. |
| Link Hudson,”And God can pour the wrath on the earth without the saints being appointed unto wrath. He didn’t spill His wrath on Israel in Egypt when He saw the blood. I Corinthians 15 says that they that are Christ’s will be made alive at His coming, not seven years before or 3 years before.” |
| Judd Net,very weak argument by Link Hudson – the wrath upon Egypt was localized upon Egypt only; the Great Tribulation is upon the whole world – no exceptions |
| Link Hudson,БиблиÑта Тв Israel did not have to leave Egypt to escape the judgments poured out on Egypt. Pre-trib is based on weak arguments. Taking ‘not appointed unto wrath’ to invent a whole new rapture and resurrection of the dead that takes place BEFORE Jesus comes back when plenty of scripture places it at the second coming is a really huge leap. |
| David Lewayne Porter,”If you research the rapture there are 9 different rapture THEORIES, I say theories because no one knows exactly when it will occur.They are:Pre, mid, post tribulation (1-3)Pre, mid, post wrath (4-6)And the other 3 are not worth my time. And all use Scriptures to lay out their beliefs as to why.So then my point is, believe what you choose to, but you had better be ready as if it is NOW.(That is not fear, that is wise and smart). Noah moved with fear knowing the wrath of God – Hebrews 11:7.And I am not a pretrib-ist. (Although I truly hope that is the case)I am just smart enough to realize that I do not know for a fact and beyond any doubt; so then I had better be prepared for Matthew 24:42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.And in case we don’t think it refers to the rapture timingvss 39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.I tell my church members plan and prepare for a long life on earthBut be ready as if you are leaving here today. (Death comes to us all. We may not see the rapture this side of the grave).Be blessed.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”That scripture isnt about the rapture because being taken is a bad thing. Matthew 24:28 KJVS[28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.” |
| David Lewayne Porter,”You confuse two topics, at two different times. Matt 24 addresses 3 separate questions of the disciples.” |
| Judd Net,I find this to be a STRONG argument – This SAME Jesus … in THAT SAME manner (Acts 1:11). Settles it for me personally Alan N #preTrib |
| Ricky Grimsley,So you believe jesus comes three times? |
| Link Hudson,БиблиÑта Тв How is Acts 1:11 any kind of argument for pre-trib as opposed to the saints being made alive at Jesus’ coming like Paul said? |
| Ricky Grimsley,Pretrib uses all circular reasoning to prove its points. |
| Ricky Grimsley,You guys should take a day and watch some debates in the subject. |
| Judd Net,”Link Hudson read my explanation above so we will not repeat. Nope Ricky Grimsley But I dont see Jesus on earth during the Tribulation, so why should His Body the Church be? Especially AFTER “”a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither”” Sounds like the LAST TRUMPET to me http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-trump-of-god-1-th…/” |
| Link Hudson,”John went through the door open in heaven. What a heavily allegorical interpretation to see that as a symbol of the rapture, not really consistent with the literal way dispensationalists interpret Revelation. Why not go with direct, literal, dydactic passages of scripture? Paul says that they that are Christ’s will be made alive at His coming.He does not say that they that are Christ’s will be made alive 7 years before His coming.In II Thessalonians 1, Jesus comes back and gives the church rest when He returns executing judgment on them that believe not, when He comes to be glorified in His saints.According to II Thessalonians 1, the church will be hear until Jesus comes.What else occurs when Jesus comes?II Thessalonians 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.” |
| Judd Net,it’s the narrow road Link Hudson not my words 🙂 |
| Link Hudson,”БиблиÑта Тв Using ‘come up hither’ to argue– using an allegorical interpretation, for pre-trib is uber-weak when there are direct statements about the rapture occuring at Jesus’ coming.Isn’t believing what the Bible teaches about the return of Christ more importance than believing in imminence?” |
| Judd Net,”No Ricky Grimsley John Conger not sure if Link Hudson reported the group per-se, but whoever did managed to have a good number of the discussions deleted. When they did that we lost everyone’s comments to the discussions as well. A great discussion on masonic spirits was forever lost. Our talk with Peter A Vandever on Igntied and what followed as deleted as well. Fortunatelly, we were able to save many of the discussions and comments on http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/ but much damage to the group is done.” |
| Link Hudson,”Why would you think I reported the group? I don’t even know about these conversations. I spent the first part of the month finishing my dissertation, and I just graduated last weekend. I’ve never reported anything to facebook that I can recall, and nothing in this group. I’ve experienced having some of my own posts deleted from this group in the past.” |
| Judd Net,Link Hudson never said you reported it Charles Page was also reported and deleted from the group like our accounts – who can tell who did it… |
| Link Hudson,Why tag me then? |
| Judd Net,”just responding to your claim, brother” |
| Link Hudson,”БиблиÑта Тв Of late, I don’t really get what you are talking about. You don’t make sense. Your use of tags don’t make much sense either. I don’t know what my comments have to do with someone reporting the group or messages being deleted. I haven’t been keeping up with deleted messages.” |
| Judd Net,”oh, well (which tagging do you refer to BTW) ?” |
| Charles Page!,”БиблиÑта Тв, I have been away from FB for a few days how long was I censored. Someone uncensored me!” |
| Charles Page!,”БиблиÑта Тв, Roger Woodard pastored in Chicago when I was there at Park Boulevard, Glen Ellyn.” |
| Judd Net,People who hate the Pretrib Rapture made up the nonsensical story that it originated with Margaret McDonald and John Darby. NTEB exposes this lie beyond the shadow of any doubt…. http://www.nowtheendbegins.com/pages/rapture/the_rapture.htm |
| Ricky Grimsley,There is hardly any evidence of pretrib before the 1800s. Thimas ice and tim lahaye have been looking for 20 years and they havent had much luck. |
| Wahyu,”for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:2 Thessalonians:2:11And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.2 Thessalonians:2:10″ |
| Ricky Grimsley,When will someone explain how 2 Thessalonians doesnt destroy pretrib? |
| Judd Net,explained so many times in this group that this argument is getting old – pls look below ↴ |
| Ricky Grimsley,How about write it right here in your own words. |
| Judd Net,would love to but pls start a new tread with your question |
| Ricky Grimsley,Figures. |
| Judd Net,new tread? |
| Link Hudson,From what I’ve read Irving and the Catholic Apostolic Church movement that followed weren’t pre-trib as far as I can tell. The text of the Margaret McDonald prophecy I read did not seem to endorse pre-trib either. I think Darby was just confused and it didn’t have anything to do with that prophecy. Darby may have taken some reactionary unbiblical stances in reaction to Irving and others in that church (e.g. cessationism.) |
| Judd Net,”Link Hudson your comment is informed by religious mythology and not by the historical truth – For a refutation of McDonald’s and MacPherson’s charges, see Thomas D. Ice, “”Why the Doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture did not begin with Margaret McDonald””, Bibliotheca Sacra 147 (April-June 1990) p. 155-68. And for a Big Mac pls visit your local McDonalds Tom Steele Alan N Carla Smith” |
| Link Hudson,”БиблиÑта Тв I just argued against the idea that pre-trib came from Margaret McDonald or Irving, and you say my beliefs about this come from religious mythology and refer me to a document against the idea that it came from Margaret McDonald. Did you even read my comment?” |
| Judd Net,never said that; said your comment was wrongly informed; not sure what your belief is informed as a bapticostal believer |
| Link Hudson,”БиблиÑта Тв Lots of Baptists are pre-trib, so you are Baptiscostal. 🙂 What do you mean, wrongly informed? Do you think the McDonald prophecy supported pre-trib? The version of it I read did not. From what I’ve read, Irving and the movement that grew out of his church led by Drummond and others did not.” |
| Judd Net,”hey, if you dont believe the BIBLE at least believe Nicolas Cage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GrXe8YDbzYs” |
| Link Hudson,”The Bible or Nicholas Cage, you decide. Where is the Bible in favor of pre-trib? Why are all the verses pretribbers use so weakly related to the point they make, when there are solid post-trib arguments? How do you explain ‘shall be made alive at His coming’ in I Corinthians 15. How can that possibly fit with pre-trib? How can II Thess. 1 fit into pre-trib? Can a pre-tribber explain the pre-trib explanation of it, without resorting to referring to dozens of pdfs, blogs, videos, etc. Just show specific verses and explain these verses that contradict pre-trib in a pre-trib way.” |
| Link Hudson,”Btw, I saw the movie. The rapture thing was the backdrop to the plot, not really what the movie was about. It was about landing a plane. Totally different from the first movie. probably an attempt to generate revenue and squeeze it out of the Left Behind brand>One guy said he loved Left Behind so much, he got ‘Left Behind’ tattooed on his right behind.” |
| Judd Net,”again, Link Hudson you’re not doing too well :)” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Not a chance. |
| Judd Net,”hey if you dont believe the Bible, at least believe Woody Harrelson; white men cant jump but they can be raptured if ready – see the video http://Judd.tv/watch_video.php?v=b4ef64ee9f8d03e” |
| Link Hudson,”БиблиÑта Тв what I don’t get is why, based on scripture, you and other pre-tribbers are pre-trib. I mean, the evidence is direct statemets of scripture about Jesus executing wrath on them that believe not IN THAT DAY when He comes to give the church rest and to be glorified in the saints. That’s II Thess. 1. If you read ‘that day’ in chapter 2 to refer to the same ‘day’, it all fits post-trib. Pre-trib arguments are based on a lot of assumptions and are kind of weak. Using ‘Come up hither’ for pre-trib is a weak argument against direct statements of scripture that the resurrection occurs at the return of Christ and the rapture occurs at the same time as the resurrection. Using ‘not appointed unto wrath’ is very weak as well, since it assumes that God can’t pour out wrath on the world without getting it on the church. We have scripture about another time in history when God poured out His judgments without getting them on His people.Why? Why believe in pre-trib? I just don’t get it. The arguments are so weak? Is the motivation fear of suffering? Kind of like the cancer victim who reasons, “”These seem like cancer symptoms. I’d better not go to the doctor because he might tell me I have cancer. If I had cancer, that would be scary. therefore, I do not have cancer, and I do not need ot go to the docotor.””” |
| Melvin Harter,”You might think our belief in the imminent return of Christ is weak in its argument, etc but my brother I still believe it even if you don’t.” |
| Link Hudson,”Do you have an answer to the specific scriptures on the subject. Why would the Bible say that the dead are made alive at Christ’s coming if it is not the case? Why would the Bible say that Jesus returns to give the church rest when He executes judgement on them that believe not, in the day when He comes to be glorified in His saints if it is not so?” |
| Judd Net,”if you dont believe the Bible, at least believe #SP4 https://www.playstation.com/…/everybodys-gone-to-the…/” |
| Ricky Grimsley,I have that game. Great graphics virtually 0 game play. |
| Judd Net,if that doesn’t prove it for you 🙂 no game on earth for the church after the rapture 🙂 |
| Ricky Grimsley,Its not about the rapture but a scientific experiment gone wrong. Total mind control propaganda. |
| Ricky Grimsley,You have no argument |
| Melvin Harter,”I would sure hate it if I were you, if in fact, I was right. But that’s the chance you must make. God bless you my brother.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”Man i hope you are right. Im not really a big fan of suffering. However, i wont lose hope or be surprised by the arrival of the antichrist.” |
| Judd Net,”I tell you who does: Nicolas Cage, Woody Harrelson, SP4 and the God of the BIBLE 🙂 Alan N Carla Smith” |
| Link Hudson,БиблиÑта Тв We are still waiting for you to present the arguments from the God of the Bible? |
| Judd Net,”Ricky Grimsley John Conger On another thought, while having my first DAKE since January of 1994, I remember using friends’ since the late summer of the Great Revival of 1991. Would that suffice? So here’s 15 arguments from Scriptures (KJV) on the Rapture – Christ’s coming FOR the saints as differing from Christ’s coming WITH the saints (a.k.a. Second Advent)1.””And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”” (Luke 21:34-36 KJV) 2.””Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.”” (John 14:1-3 KJV) 3.””Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.”” (1 Corinthians 15:51-56 KJV)4. “”Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”” (Ephesians 5:25-27 KJV) 5.””That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead? For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.”” (Philippians 3:10-11, 20-21 KJV) 6.””For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (For we walk by faith, not by sight:) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.”” (2 Corinthians 5:1-9 KJV) 7.””For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?”” (1 Thessalonians 2:19 KJV) 8.””To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.”” (1 Thessalonians 3:13 KJV) 9.””For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him? And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”” (1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, 23 KJV) 10.””Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him?For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:”” (2 Thessalonians 2:1, 7-8 KJV) 11.””When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.”” (Colossians 3:4 KJV) 12.””And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.”” (1 John 2:28 KJV) 13.””Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.”” (1 John 3:2 KJV) 14.””And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.”” (1 Peter 5:4 KJV) 15.””Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.”” (James 5:7-8 KJV)” |
| Link Hudson,”There are only two verses here that I can see where you might see an argument for pre-trib. The rest fit as well or better with post-trib. For Luke 21:34-36, you are assuming that the way to escape these things is a pre-trib rapture. That’s a huge leap. We shouldn’t read that idea into the text when there is so much direct evidence that the saints are resurrected when Jesus comes back, and that the rapture occurs at the resurrection.Number 2 says that Jesus prepares a place for the disciples. Notice that at the end of the book of Revelation, the New Jerusalem descends to the new earth.How do you get a pre-trib rapture out of any of the rest of the verses. You also quoted from II Thessalonians 2 “”””Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him””. This argues against pre-trib. Why would these phrases be put in the order they are if pre-trib were true? Pre-trib has the gathering together of the saints happening BEFORE the tribulation. If pre-trib were true, why wouldn’t the verse say, “”Now we beseech you brethren our gathering together unto the Lord Jesus Christ, and His coming””? Why does the sequence of the verse go against pre-trib? The verse makes perfect sense if the gathering together occurs at the same time as the coming of the Lord.Notice we also read about the ‘gathering together’ of the elect in Matthew 24, which happens ‘AFTER the tribulation of those days.'” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”The pretrib “”argument”” is mostly idealogical. Imminent return so people wont live in sin and escape from wrath (which is ridiculous if you are an arab christian). Where is any scripture that puts a rapture before daniels 70Th week. And again paul calls the rapture the “”day of the lord””” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Dake was way off on this. He gave no evidence of pretrib. He just assumes it. |
| Link Hudson,”As does just about every other pre-trib teacher. I hear this over and over again from Calvary Chapel guys on the radio. Someone asks them why they are pre-trib– they just interpret scriptures through a pre-trib lens, without explaining how they get to the pre-trib idea in the first place.Is there an on-ramp to the circular highway of pre-trib reasoning?Occasionally, someone interprets the apostacy to refer to the rapture in one verse where it is mentioned, but not in the other. That’s the closest to a direct teaching on it, but you have to make that weird assumption that the falling away refers to the rapture. The idea that the rapture is the only way the church can not be appointed unto wrath is uber weak, and it doesn’t stand up to the fact that there are direct teachings of scripture about the rapture occuring at the return of Christ, (not than 7 years before it.)” |
| Judd Net,”#DAKE was right on the money. He gave many/most arguments on pretrib. Nicolas Cage, Woody Harrelson, SP4 and even Ricky Grimsley agree that there’s NO game on earth for the church after the rapture :)” |
| Ricky Grimsley,What you just posted proves my point. All those scriptures support a prewrath or a post trib argument. |
| Judd Net,The wrath of God is the Tribulation – we’ve longed establish that |
| Ricky Grimsley,The wrath of god doesnt start until the trumpet and bowls. Most of the 70th week is satan and mans doing. |
| Judd Net,The Last Trump of God blows at the rapture before the 70th week http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-trump-of-god-1-th…/ |
| Ricky Grimsley,”This is way after a pretrib. Revelation 6:10-15,17 KJVS[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were , should be fulfilled. [12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” |
| Judd Net,they’ve been under the altar? |
| Alan SmithAlan ,vs. 12-13 are a fulfillment of Acts 2:20 and it must happen before the ‘day of the Lord’ comes. |
| Ricky Grimsley,Again you cut and paste some long article instead of responding with the bible. |
| Judd Net,cutting and pasted 15 scriptures from the Bible that prove the pre-Trib rapture as established by God Himself 🙂 |
| Ricky Grimsley,All that says is we believe pretrib because we believe pretrib. |
| Ricky Grimsley,Thats what it says. |
| Judd Net,”Brother, if you want to go through the Tribulation so bad pls go. If I want to go through the Rapture of the Church, please let me go. Worst can happen is I see you in the Tribulation or you get #LEFTBEHIND Alan Melvin” |
| Alan SmithAlan ,well… did ANYONE ever answer the original question that I posted??? that started this 480+ commented argument? |
| Ricky Grimsley,The worst that can happen is that it isnt true and believers turn away from the faith because the antichrist is deceptive. |
| Terry Wiles,True believers will be ready whenever. |
| Ricky Grimsley,This is true. We will see who the true believers are. Hopefully people will listen when the antichrist becomes more recognizable. Lol. |
| Ricky Grimsley,Perhaps not though. Most pretrib people are completely convinced that the antichrist will reign from rome and the stuff. Hopefully we will see the jews begin to turn to their old ways and people will wake up. Thats why people like tom steele scare me. |
| Terry Wiles,True believers know there are many antichrists already among us. |
| Ricky Grimsley,Again also true |
| Alan SmithAlan ,Ricky and Terry thank you for these posts and somewhat answers. |
| Ricky Grimsley,”There are many things that hurt the gospel because they are so easy to disprove that it makes Christians look silly. Take for instance the nativity scene with three wise men at the manger…….totally against scripture and easy to disprove. Yet every church has a manger scene just like that. Not to mention that Christmas and easter is mostly pagan in origin and the atheists just get more fuel. Look at it this way. How many times does jesus come? Two unless you are pretrib and then its three. Then you say “”but ricky the rapture isnt a coming.”” Which is just nonsense.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”The “”day of the lord”” is an old concept from the Old Testament. Paul explains it to us in his Thessalonian writings.” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”I honestly dont see how u guys cant read 1-2 Thessalonians and not see. Paul obviously believes that the rapture begins the “”day of the lord”” and then he tells us that “”that day”” wont come till the falling away and the sin of perdition is revealed. This can not be refuted. I think Dake was great but he was no Paul b” |
| Judd Net,Start that 2 Thessalonians 2 topic Ricky Grimsley |
| Ricky Grimsley,You go ahead. People probably wont even read it if i post lol. |
| Judd Net,with all my posts getting reported to FB and deleted lately I’d rather you start it so it will not be deleted – that’s all |
| Wahyu,I believe very much in the rapture and even escaping the GT but that’s all those scriptures you posted prove. I also find it absurd when people talking about how God doesn’t want or won’t let his children suffer when there are countless martyrs even now. Ever read foxes book of martyrs? That is a westernized gospel that is only able to be preached because of our life of ease |
| Judd Net,Both Ephraim of Syria (Eastern) and Clement of Rome (Western) believed in the pre-trib rapture (talking away) of the ready saints |
| Wahyu,Who’s reporting it and why are they getting deleted? |
| Judd Net,FB dont let us know WHO but someone within the group. Two of our admin accounts were deleted within last week Alan |
| Wahyu,Please tell me what they said. I’ve never heard anyone believing in pretrib prior to 1830’s. |
| Terry Wiles,Paul |
| Judd Net,Paul is a given. John is a given. Jesus is a given. Enoch is a given. Moses is a given. Elijah is a given. I am a given 🙂 |
| Terry Wiles,All of which are before the 1830’s |
| Judd Net,except me of course Timothy Carter 🙂 |
| Timothy Carter,”I never heard of anyone not belonging in Pretrib until around 1994 or so. I am not really sure about the year but I was in high school and though “” boy this lady is telling lies on God.””” |
| Timothy Carter,”Now, I have heard many other persons say that they don’t believe. I am ok with this. I understand now that the Bible is not clear. We are not to know. We are to be faithful.” |
| Terry Wiles,Last days deception started around 1994 or so. |
| Timothy Carter,Terry Wiles I was raised in a pastor home. My Dad preach Pretrib I had no clue that some other ideas were out there. |
| Terry Wiles,Timothy Carter. I fully agree with you. Everything is being challenged these days. |
| Ricky Grimsley, |
| Terry Wiles,A misrepresentation. It’s not before persecution. It is before the outpouring of God’s wrath that will be poured out in the last portion of the Great Tribulation. |
| Judd Net,The rapture is before the Tribulation. I read it in my DAKE Bible and saw it on TV 🙂 #LeftBehind |
| Ricky Grimsley,”I believe that we will be raptured before God’s wrath as well. However, God’s wrath isnt the whole 7 years. Revelation 6:10-15,17 KJVS[10] And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [11] And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were , should be fulfilled. [12] And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; [13] And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. [14] And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [15] And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; [17] For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?” |
| Judd Net,John Conger have you seriously made the case against pre-trib without reading the church fathers? |
| Wahyu,Lol yeah. At last trumpet…. Which Paul clearly taught would happen prior to tribulation ….. Oh which means the last trumpet also happens before the other 8 trumpets recorded in rev….. Common core math??? |
| Judd Net,”Didache, which is dated about 100 AD, the following is found: “Watch for your life’s sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed, but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh.— |
| Ricky Grimsley,In those writings they thought the lords return was imminent because they thought they were in the tribulation already. They never taught that jesus would return before the antichrist. |
| Terry Wiles,Here we go with the trumpet confusion thread again. |
| Wahyu,You’re kidding right? I have read most of the ante nicene church fathers. None of them taught pretrib |
| Judd Net,”“The Shepherd of Hermas,†written about 100 to 120 AD, the following lines are found in reference to the Great Tribulation: “If ye then prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape, if your heart be pure and sinless, and ye spend the rest of your lives serving the Lord blamelessly.— |
| Wahyu,Confusion only happens when you try to make something say what it doesn’t |
| Wahyu,I believe very much in escaping the wrath of God. Also how is good return eminent when the 144000 are the first fruits? |
| Wahyu,I’m not familiar with didache. I’ll check it out. |
| Wahyu,”Interesting read in the didache….. Now lets read it in context..chapter 16. It states:(1) “Watch†over your life: “let your lamps†be not quenched “and your loins†be not ungirded, but be “ready,†for ye know not “the hour in which our Lord cometh.†(2) But be frequently gathered together seeking the things which are profitable for your souls, for the whole time of your faith shall not profit you except ye be found perfect at the last time; (3) for in the last days the false prophets and the corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall change to hate; (4) for as lawlessness increaseth they shall hate one another and persecute and betray, and then shall appear the deceiver of the world as a Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders and the earth shall be given over into his hands and he shall commit iniquities which have never been since the world began. (5) Then shall the creation of mankind come to the fiery trial and “many shall be offended†and be lost, but “they who endure†in their faith “shall be saved†by the curse itself. (6) And “then shall appear the signs†of the truth. First the sign spread out in Heaven, then the sign of the sound of the trumpet, and thirdly the resurrection of the dead: (7) but not of all the dead, but as it was said, “The Lord shall come and all his saints with him.†(8) Then shall the world “see the Lord coming on the clouds of Heaven” |
| Terry Wiles,”Hum. If (7) “”the Lord shall come and all his saints with him”” then (8) shall the “”world”” see the Lord coming with all his “”saints”” then his saints must have been raptured/taken out sometime before this return.” |
| Link Hudson,”or just as He is returning. Where do we see something like that in the Bible?Matthew 2429 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.(NKJV)” |
| Wahyu,”Not to mention no matter what any writings say, scripture VERY PLAINLY says that day shall not over take us as a theif” |
| Terry Wiles,”With a heavy emphasis on “”us!””” |
| Wahyu,”Yes he comes with his saints, that have been taken prior of which the 144000 are the firstfruits. AND he is very plainly telling them what the church will have to go through” |
| Terry Wiles,”The text says with “”all”” his saints.” |
| Wahyu,A pretrib enthusiast will see pretrib no matter what. |
| Wahyu,Did anybody read verse 6? |
| Terry Wiles,”Yes, of course. If you have ever been to Jerusalem and stood on The Mount of Olives across from the Golden gate you see all the graves of Jewish people who are buried there in anticipation of the coming of the Messiah to establish His earthly reign. They know the scriptures that say his feet will first touch that mount and the graves will be opened. Likewise the people of Islam have graves in front of the Eastern gate as a preventative from having any “”priest”” entering that sealed gate because they also know the scriptures and tradition that no priest is permitted to walk through a graveyard and want to prevent a staged return. However they forget that Jesus is from the tribe of Judah. That second coming to earth will be a public coming and the world will see it, probably live on tv. The rapture is not a coming to earth but a “”departure””, a catching away.” |
| Judd Net,”Grant Jeffrey has found an ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation. Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century. This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment: “”For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”” For a refutation of MacPherson’s charges, see Thomas D. Ice, “”Why the Doctrine of the Pretribulational Rapture did not begin with Margaret McDonald””, Bibliotheca Sacra 147 (April-June 1990) p. 155-68.” |
| Link Hudson,”I’ve read a quote about this before. It just proves that Darby wasn’t the first person to come up with this theory, if it’s a legit quote. It doesn’t change what the Bible teaches.” |
| Judd Net,yes – it checks with several latin MSS as well Rick |
| Wahyu,Wow that sucks. Can’t believe someone would do that. I may think some of you are crazy but you still have a right to think what you want |
| Wahyu,”Terry why is the 144000 the firstfruit again? If the saints are raptures before? These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.” |
| Terry Wiles,Look down |
| Judd Net,144000 are first fruit of Israel – plain and simple 🙂 |
| Link Hudson,There are Jewish believers now. There were in the first century. |
| Judd Net,always has been 12×12 – it’s pretty obvious |
| Terry Wiles,Simple truth isn’t it Tb: 144000 are first fruit of Israel – plain and simple 🙂 |
| Wahyu,So the disciples weren’t Israeli? Wouldn’t they have gone up in pretrib rapture along with millions of other saved Jews? Also to be blunt it doesn’t say anything about being first fruit of Israel. It actually says from among men. You wouldn’t be trying to force it to fit would you? |
| Judd Net,Timothy Carter heard the rapture was in 1994 or so 🙂 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFDo7RVd-Oc |
| Terry Wiles,”Tb. I’m always amazed at your ready resources. You must be a Facebook “”disc jockey””. Lol” |
| Timothy Carter,This is what I said |
| Judd Net,”Terry Wiles people will not believe the Bible, but they will believe pop-culture. The Rapture is real – I saw it on TV :)” |
| Terry Wiles,Of course Tb. You are always right. Keep the TV research well funded 🙂 |
| Charles Page!,”There has always been a lot of diversified beliefs about the return of Christ. I heard E.C. Thomas tell Steve Brock after he preached on Christ’s second return, “”Steve, you don’t know the coming of the Lord from a hole in the ground!””” |
| Charles Page!,everybody who heard it were scratching their heads over it. Seems he didn’t really clarify the first coming from the second coming and the final coming. One of the times he should have sung rather than preach. No one questions the theology of a song! |
| Charles Page!,”for instance “”Joy to the world”” is not a Christmas song but is an A-Mill song about the coming of Christ in 70 AD!” |
| Charles Page!,”remember Systematic theology with Dr Gause after we sang “”Sweet Sweet Spirit”” in chapel. We got lectured about the sweet sweet spirit!!!” |
| Corey Forsyth,”I agree that we should start a thread about this… On a funny note, I heard a pastor, in an effort to sound “”deep””, say from the pulpit, “”There is a hymn that is biblically incorrect that’s says Just suppose God searched through heaven… But He didn’t have to search through heaven (continue overly excited sermon delivery). I laughed out loud during service because he went so far out of the way to discredit a hymn that has its meaning summarized in the first 2 words… Just suppose. lol” |
| Judd Net,http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/away-we-will-go-to…/ |
| Charles Page |
| Corey Forsyth,HAHAHA Couldn’t resist!! |
| Judd Net,hey Timothy Carter for once Link Hudson has brought a great point. Even our baptist brothers and sisters firmly believe in a pre-Trib rapture. How can you be a Pentecostal and not believe in a pre-Trib rapture? |
| Link Hudson,”БиблиÑта Тв Bible is more important than Baptist or Pentecostal tradition.I get the theme of sticking with tradition a lot in your posts. Biblically, how can you be pre-trib when Paul says that the dead are made alive at Christ’s coming? The dead in Christ shall rise first, before those living are caught up in the rapture. So how can you be pre-trib?” |
| Ricky Grimsley,Preach |
| Judd Net,Paul said it was a mystery 🙂 |
| Corey Forsyth,”I have always heard that “”the dead in Christ shall rise first”” just meant the Baptists got the first trip up.. :-D” |
| Judd Net,Pentecostal is Spirit-centered. You dont get raptured without the Spirit of Pentecost. If you are not over-weight that is Tom Steele |
| Judd Net,Rapture is the true separation of Church and State |
| Ricky Grimsley,Hey guys let me ask this….If i am wrong about pretrib then i will know when i get raptured and all is well. If you guys are wrong and we go through at least most of the 7 years….what do you think you would need to see to convince you that you are in fact in daniels 70th week? |
| Judd Net,”Abomination of desolation in the Temple. However, …” |
| Judd Net,http://howlongolord.com/?p=477 |
| Judd Net,https://www.facebook.com/KentHenryMinistries/videos/467796166742407/?fref=nf |
| Terry Wiles,”An interesting comment on the second coming from “”Lutheran Airlines.”” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KakIacaDyCI” |
| Judd Net,”THIS Henry Volk Lutherans are going in the rapture on an airplane. If some preachers got a private plane, Lutherans got an airline :)” |
| Judd Net,C Peter Wagner denies the rapture of the church. So do Mike Bickle and the IHOPchurch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEqAJpVy8Jw |
| Judd Net,https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php… |
| Judd Net,Seems like these 27 Events by @Jessilyn Justice in September-October were Mere Coincidence after all http://www.charismanews.com/…/51657-are-these-27-events… |
| Judd Net,Does CharismaMag wants you to stay here during the Tribulation? http://www.charismamag.com/…/25337-why-should-we-be… John Conger Ricky Grimsley |
| Ricky Grimsley,We will be whether or not Charisma magazine wants it. |
| Wahyu,I believe the bible holds all the truth we need |
| Judd Net,”well, Gentleman (though you did not read the article) at least there’ll be a Charismatic mag left behind to inform you of things :)” |
| Judd Net,”Obama’s Strategic Move To Fulfill Prophecy is on a fast track. Hosea chapter 12 speaks of the United States and how the leaders would make Assyria a desolate nation, but Nineveh is spoken of separately and it seems all the forces of evil are concerned over this city in North West Iraq. Boots on the ground by the US Soldiers is only going to make things worse. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbrLw3Cgj-I&feature=youtu.be” |
| Judd Net,what’s your apology on the rapture Allen Daves |
| Judd Net,Allen Daves Where do you stand on pre-Trib rapture? |
| Judd Net,and there you have it Charles John Ricky Grimsley |
| Wahyu,Wow |
| Alan SmithAlan ,Economically speaking… Things are drying up fast.http://www.businessinsider.com/baltic-dry-index-falls-to… |
| Judd Net,and we have comment #500 🙂 in honor of #Daytona500 Pope |
| Brody Pope,One month!!! Pulling for Chase Elliot!!! #24 #GordonFanForLife |
| Charles Page!,”sky is falling!!! dispensational, premillennial theology” |
| Judd Net,”post-mil: “”we are taking over a world that God’s fixing to burn down”” Charles Page: “”I already did that single handedly in 70 AD”” :)” |
| Robert Paul Gardner,I look at it this way: If the Lord comes before the Tribulation then bonus. Nevetheless if us Pretrib folk are wrong and we do go into the Tribulation then that just gives us more time to win souls for Jesus. Either way its a win win situation for us believers |
| Judd Net,There you go Robert pre-Trib is win-win. It’s the post-trib that will miss the Holy Rapture of the Church 🙂 Ricky Grimsley John Conger |
| Troy DayYou ,https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy8yf3AUHpk |
| Judd Net,Still here. Still pre-trib. Still rapture-ready… |
| Troy DayYou ,”Ricky Grimsley Re-reading 2 Thess this week. Ch.2:2 really has nothing to do with the rapture. The revealing of the evil one is prerequisite to the Descent, Arrival, Return and Parousia. To think this is the rapture would be a epic theological fail. It actually be misleading people away from the true meaning of the text. Paul writes against the once who said Jesus has already return as well as the once who say the Rapture and the Parousia are one and the same. Epic theological fail to many 2 Thess. 2:2 interpreters” |
| Ricky Grimsley,”So the “”day of the lord”” is what then?” |
| Troy DayYou ,Ricky Grimsley The Day of the Lord is upon us… |
| Ricky Grimsley,Nope |
| Melvin Harter,”I think your question “IF you are PRE-Trib in belief and you are not caught away when the Anti-Christ is revealed (meaning either mid- or post-trib) will you turn away from and/or get mad at God?†Should have instead been “If you are Post-Trib and the Christ calls those who are looking for His return before the Tribulation Period and the antiChrist appears, are you going to be mad?— |
| Troy DayYou ,I still believe there’s power in the blood |
| Ed Lane,YES | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John Earp,”It is always remarkable how someone with an apparently earned doctorate can be so willfully ignorant of Scripture. It is one thing to critique dispensationalism and the PRETRIB theory, but to say there will be no rapture at all is simply unscriptural.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Bill Coble,”The Rapture is Biblical. Allow me to indulge for a moment here. I watched this video and I want to make it clear, I respectfully and completely disagree with this gentleman. Let me start with Revelation 1:10. John begins by saying He is “”In the Spirit on the Lord’s Day””. John was not referring to Sunday here, but rather canonically is referring to the START of the Day of the Lord. Note what he sees and hears a voice and a trumpet. When you translate that in Greek you realize that it is the same terms given in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. Furthermore, you go to Revelation 3:10, and we are kept from the hour of temptation to come upon the whole world. Then we go to Revelation 4:1, and John is told to come up hither and see the things hereafter. If the Rapture is a myth, then why do we see in Revelation 7 the need for 144,000 witnesses during the tribulation, the need for Revelation 11 and the two witnesses, etc. Furthermore, you destroy the Doctrine of the Imminent Return of Jesus by denying the Doctrine of the Rapture. He also discusses the Matthew 24 passage. While the rapture is mentioned in the latter part of the passage, note that Jesus starts the dialogue over again with his disciples rather than being a continuation. Post-Trib holds this text as one continuous text when it is clear he starts the dialogue over with the Parable of the Fig Tree. If the rapture is during or after the Tribulation how in the world can it be a Blessed Hope? Titus 2:13.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Jordan Evans,”Absolutely not. I love N.T. Wright’s writings on the topic. Really opened my eyes to the rapture fallacy and current “”Left Behind”” eschatology perpetrated by Darby and Scofield in the early 1800’s-1900’s.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Laurie Anne Corson,Have to know your history about Scofield and Darby! | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Deborah Nimm Dearborn,”I am one who agrees that rapture teaching is very problematic because of my own study of the Bible as well as other resources. I believe though that it is difficult for many to simply discard the rapture because in so doing it upsets the entire theology of Christ’s return and his millennial reign on earth before the final judgment. Like the rapture this teaching is nearly set in stone by Evangelicals, yet it too poses many difficulties if one takes the time to closely examine Scripture. One thing we must accept is that the best interpretation of prophecy is done in hindsight. Just as Israel was expecting a politically conquering Messiah king but instead received a suffering servant who was to be crucified, we too may well have a misunderstood expectation of Christ’s second advent.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,There’s also a specific video on Mt. 24 we will try to publish and some Rapture related writings by the early church fathers that prove the doctrine dates all the way back to the 3-4 century | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John Earp,”I am definitely not a dispensationalist, and I am well aware of the errors of Darby and Scofield, but to deny completely any rapture/resurrection of the dead in Christ at all is patently unscriptural: 1 Thess 4:15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. 18Therefore encourage one another with these words. 1 Cor. 15:50 I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. 53For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. 54When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written:“Death is swallowed up in victory.â€55“O death, where is your victory?O death, where is your sting?— | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Deborah Nimm Dearborn,”Not accepting the rapture does not mean that the resurrection is thrown away also. The resurrection of both the living and the dead will surely happen. The question is whether they are two totally separate events or if they are both contained within the parameters of “”the day of the Lord.””” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John Earp,”In the above video, the professor says there will be no rapture at all. He must willfully ignore the above passages in order to make such a claim.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Jordan Evans,Or interpret them correctly.. | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John Earp,(As well as several other passages in Scripture). | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,Daniel Rushing shared some Thoughts from Revelation that fits this discussion well… | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John Earp,”Let’s see. Dead in Christ resurrected into incorruptible bodies. Living believers likewise transformed into imperishable bodies. All meet the Lord in the air. All happening at the last trump, when Christ returns. I happen to find the post-trib theory makes the most sense, but whatever one’s eschatology, one cannot legitimately say there will be no rapture/catching away of the saints at all.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Jordan Evans,”The earliest known teaching of the modern “”rapture”” is the 18th century. Other early-ancient writers may have used the word “”rapture,”” but it is radically different from what see and hear today. They believed all the saints would be resurrected on the last day as Jesus returned with the fullness of the kingdom..Which is still what most Reformed, Lutheran, Orthodox, and the Catholic Church teaches and had been teaching for centuries. Futurism, as we call it, is a relatively new perspective, and is really only popular in the US..(I cant tell you how many friends of mine in other countries had never heard of the modern interpretation of the rapture and Futurism, finding it quite silly). If you want a better understanding of the Biblical writer’s eschatology, I would say look no further than the early Church Fathers, meaning those within the first few generations of the Apostles deaths.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Jordan Evans,I strongly believe this view presents the strongest example of a Biblical eschatology http://ntwrightpage.com/Wright_BR_Farewell_Rapture.htm | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John Earp,”I am quite familiar with church history. I affirm historic premillenialism, not dispensationalism.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,”Many opponents of the pre-tribulation rapture view have made dogmatic assertions that this view was never taught before 1820. There have been many attempts to attribute the origin of this view to John N. Darby. An ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation. http://www.khouse.org/articles/1995/39/” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Jordan Evans,”That’s an extra-Biblical, non-apostolic-linked source..The point is that the Early Church, at least for the first 250-300 years did not teach a pre-trib rapture, nor had it even been heard of.. To put that in perspective, in that span of time, The United States came together..That’s quite a long time. Definitely enough time for a bit of Gnosticism to blend in with eschatology..” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,”150BC – 70AD Rapture Mentioned in the Dead Sea ScrollsDr. William Harold, professor of Canon Law, at the Theological Seminary of Essex, GB wrote: “”The scroll, written in Aramaic, the language spoken in the Holy Land during Jesus time on earth, was found in a cave on the shores of the Dead Sea by geologists conducting a survey for the Israeli government.””The scrolls read: “”The Rapture will occur suddenly. And countless thousands will vanish from the earth. Swept up to heaven to live with Jesus and escape the torment of the Tribulation, the others will be left behind.”” — The Dead Sea Scrolls Rick Wadholm Jr” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve Webb,”Even Christ referenced the rapture. This was done in speaking of workers in the field, but most explicitly in the parable of the ten virgins. The Jewish wedding is a great picture of the rapture, 7 years in heaven, and return for the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Jordan Evans,Non-apostolic-linked. | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Jordan Evans,That reference is about people being taken away as slaves when the Romans invaded Jerusalem in 70AD. | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,”95-150 AD, the Rapture idea was preached by the Shepherd of Hermas.””You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.””” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Jordan Evans,”Again, that is the different understanding of the rapture I mentioned above. Futurism and a pre-trib rapture are simply not Biblical. It comes from a mix of Gnosticism and extra-Biblical sources.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve Webb,”A reference to slavery is not logical. Especially when coupled with other facts of Christ’s ministry. Also, Corinthians and Thessalonians has been referenced in previous comments. All that can be done is to try to correct improper teaching and understanding. It is up to each person to accept or reject. The whole word must be rightly divided, and certainly there are differences that will arise, but I’ll never be convinced that we are appointed to suffer the wrath of God as believers. Persecution, yes, trials, yes. But the tribulation period is the wrath of God being poured out upon earth and mankind and we will not be here for that as believers.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Venyamin YireYahu,”If there is no rapture, how can 1 corintgians 15:53 be explained? In the twinkling of an eye!” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,No apostolic claims here (certainly not on the Dead Sea Scrolls) – just making the point that Darby and then BTS Dallas did not start the rapture teaching | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Venyamin YireYahu,”Steve Webb, maybe you can help me out here. It seems 1: thess 4:16 is explicit in saying we will be gathered to The Lord after the trumpet. 1 thess 4 models matthew 24. In Matthew 24, however the gathering of the saints is AFTER the tribulation.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve Webb,”In Matthew 24 there is a timeline of end time events and occurrences. Specifically speaking to verses 30-31, I feel the elect will be those saved in the tribulation. Now that is a debate within itself about who is saved in that time period, but for the issue involved here, just the ones saved then. Here is my reasoning…in verse 30 it says that all the people on earth will see the coming of Christ and will mourn. This leads me to believe as I do. At the rapture, which is a separate event from the second coming, Christ will not be seen by non-believers. At His second coming He will be seen by all.Reading further in Matthew 24, you see the reference to the two in the field, and also to Noah. It says that people will be continuing as normal. In the tribulation, with God’s wrath being poured out, would it be possible to live a normal life? This is a short answer to a long topic. I’ll try to get something complete on it and post it here soon. But if you can get your hands on some of Dr. R. Hollis Gause’s books or teachings it would be great. He is one of the best on Revelation and eschatology.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,”Edwin Mendez it can’t – we will blink and when we open our eyes we will be … well, still here Rick Wadholm Jr” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Venyamin YireYahu,”Thanks, Steve Webb I’m inclined to believe post trib because I have yet to find a satisfactory explanation against matthew 24:28-32 showing that Jesus comes after the tribulation. The same with 1 thess 4:16. My eschatology hinges on those two corpi. I am keeping an opened mind of alternatives such as pre-trib but those two corpi seem almost explicit.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,”306-373 AD Ephrem the Syrian. One of the most important evidences for rapture is an apocalyptic sermon from the 4th century titled “Sermon on the End of the Worldâ€. It clearly reads:“Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. … For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.— | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve Webb,”Edwin Mendez you’re welcome. As you can tell I am pre-trib. This comes from much study and research. I appreciate dialogue and friendly discussion. That’s how we all grow. But I will get some things together over the next few days and post a complete breakdown on it…well, complete as in a good general overview. Complete would take a book!” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,”400 AD, Jerome in the Latin Vulgate introduced the term “”rapture”” into the English language from the Latin raeptius, which means “”rapture””, or “”caught up”” to describe the Rapture. It was Jerome’s Vulgate that translated the original Greek verb harpazo used by Paul, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in 1 Thes. 4:17, which is usually translated into English with the phrase “”caught up.”” The leading Greek Lexicon says that harpazo means “”snatch, seize, i.e., take suddenly and vehemently.”” This is the same meaning of the Latin word rapio “”to seize, snatch, tear away.””” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Christopher Klette,”I Have read everyones post, you all make great points and I will keep mine to myself at this time. No matter each one, where we stand, we are all called to be a witness for Jesus Christ. I am looking forward to seeing more post on the rapture. And Steve Webb, maybe you should write a book. I enjoy Pentecostal Theology very much. Pentecostal Kentuckian Bro. Chris” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,”Dr. John Gill was a Calvinist Baptist theologian. In his 1748 commentary he wrote: ….here Christ will stop and will be visible to all, and as easily discerned by all, good and bad, as the body of the sun at noon-day; as yet He will not descend on earth, because it is not fit to receive Him; but when that and its works are burnt up, and it is purged and purified by fire, and become a new earth, He’ll descend upon it, and dwell with his saints in it: and this suggests another reason why He’ll stay in the air, and His saints shall meet Him there, and whom He’ll take up with Him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over, and to preserve them from it.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve Webb,”That’s a thought Christopher Klette but that’s a very saturated market. I don’t know that the interest level would be there, but that’s where I’m leaning when I get to further along in my education for a PhD dissertation. So maybe then…thanks for the kind comment.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,”1744 AD, Morgan Edwards is the clearest reference to a pretrib rapture before Darby. Edwards saw a distinct rapture 3½ years before the start of the millennium. He taught the following:II. The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.I say, somewhat more-, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ’s “”appearing in the air”” (Thess. 4:17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many “”mansions in the father’s house”” (John 14:2), and disappear during the fore said period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for “”now the time is come that judgment must begin,”” and that will be “”at the house of God”” (IPet. iv. 17)” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Steve Webb,http://ourcog.org/dr-hollis-gause-pre-tribulation…/ | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Bill Coble,Dr Gause tells it like it is! | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,”Got to love the last part: “”Is this escapism? No it is God’s provision. Is it escape? Yes– Escape from judgment to receive glory– Escape from hell and death to receive heaven and everlasting life– I can live – live eternally – with that kind of escape. “”” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Rick Wadholm Jr,”Not sure why I have specifically been tagged here. Several comments might be in order though: 1) The Qumran text referenced should be titled by the coding used for locating and reading said text/s. Without that titled coding I would not personally be able to comment on such a statement as I would not have translated it myself nor be able to find it in a search. So if Pentecostal Theology knows the name of the MS for this text I would be delighted to read it.2) The rapture is in no way clearly delineated in the text of Scripture. This would not inherently make it “”non-biblical”” in the sense of opposed to Scripture. It would at least mean it is simply not a clearly stated doctrine of Scripture even if it can be arrived at by reading certain texts in relation to one another.” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,”It was in connection with your question on Pentecostal Preterism. The dead sea scrolls especially the ones from Qumran contain a lot of the new testament, yet these portions never get discussed. But this example really deserves scrutiny, as the word rapture is Latin for the Greek word Harpazo. Dont know what Aramaic word is for rapture?” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Rick Wadholm Jr,If you were able to track down the manuscript name I could likely access it for examination. | ||||||||||||||||||||
| Jon Sellers,The research of Charles Hill pretty much puts to rest any claim that the early church was largely pre-millenial. They were not. Check it out. http://www.amazon.com/Regn…/dp/0802846343/ref=sr_1_sc_1… | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,”STAY RAPTURE READY, MY FRIENDS!” | ||||||||||||||||||||
| John DreddPentecostal ,”Jordan, when you say that none of the apostolic fathers subscribed to the rapture, should we understand you have read them all in the original language or is this an assumption from popular culture?” | ||||||||||||||||||||
Anonymous
I literally LOVE this post Link Hudson Brett Dobbs Gary Micheal Epping and the other brother who claim to wrote a book – this is virtually ALL arguments against pre-trib listed answered defeated and put to rest Just LOVE it – a literal proof nothing can be said against pre-trib that hasnt been said before and defeated PROUDLY started by our own Alan Smith TerryandNita Wiles and myabe even Ricky Grimsley
Anonymous
Troy Day Give one example of a pretrib argument that stands up to scrutiny.
Anonymous
Give 1 example of a post-trub argument that stands up to scrutiny AS a matter of fact start a separate OP with each one you can come up with – doubt any are yours personally, but you can still copy them too
Anonymous
Troy Day I can’t seem to wrap my mind around the idea that since Enoch was translated 300 years before the flood, that is 100% proof the church will be taken up before the 70th week begins.
The entire doctrine of pre trib is based on one typology of a rapture in general and lots and lots of extra biblical sources.
Yet, I post nothing but scripture that paints a slightly different picture and I’m in the wrong?
I’m humble enough to admit there is a 1% chance that I am wrong. Are you willing to admit that?
I believe God has laid something on my soul that says prepare the church.
So in that, if Im wrong then we prepared our hearts and minds for nothing. Nothing bad can come from being prepared.
But what if I’m right?
What does an unprepared church look like?
Luke 21:26 (KJV) Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs 300 years before the flood TELL it to Philip Williams
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs why bother preparing the church if you are post TRIB? Instead you better get ‘prepping’ and plan on riding out the great tribulation in the wilderness hiding from the antichrist’s drones and bots!
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence
Luke 21:26 (KJV) Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Matthew 24:48 (KJV) But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
It’s about spiritually preparing.
Luke 17:33 (KJV)
Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs
For sure unbelievers and  nominal believers will have their hearts fail them. And even those who become genuine believers during the great tribulation will get to the point of almost falling away and quitting because of the terrible pressure they will have. Jesus himself says God will stop the great tribulation and return to keep the elect from falling away.
None of this has anything to do with the Rapture Saints who will be taken out of the wrath that is to come!
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence
What will be your state of mind if your wrong. How do you think you will handle it?
Anonymous
Brett Dobbs I would do the will of the Lord and preach the Gospel with more vigor until I am executed for refusing to deny Jesus!
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence I once heard a preacher say that he would bet his own soul on the pre trib. So he was literally willing to bet his salvation on it.
Anonymous
Troy Day I read the post not the comments.
Anonymous
This shows that pre-tribbers are able to read pre-trib into other writings besides scripture. I didn’t see any ‘smoking gun’ except psuedo-Ephraim, and I never found the quote in the actual long document that he wrote, only in pre-trib writings.
Let’s look at an example from the article quoting the Didache:
“And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of
an outspreading of heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the
third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall
come and all his saints with Him. ”
How about we interpret this based on the information from the actual Bible about the resurrection? In Revelation, there is a resurrection of dead saints, followed by 1000 years, then a general resurrection. Paul’s writings show us that the ‘dead in Christ shall rise first’ at the rapture. So not everyone is resurrected. So it makes sense that the Didache would say ‘yet not of all’. The resurrected dead meet the Lord in the air. That is how He is able to come with Him. But which of the dead? I Thessalonians says, ‘The dead in Christ shall rise first.’
Since these early Christians had access to the Bible (or at least parts of it) but NOT Darby’s writings, Schofield’s notes, ‘The Late Great Planet Earth’, or the Left Behind series, we should try to interpret their comments in line with what the Bible teaches without trying to eisegete in later eschatological frameworks.
If you could actually show some _Biblical_ evidence for pretrib then it would make sense to argue that these authors might have had such and such scripture in mind.
After these many years, I am still waiting for Biblical evidence that:
— Places a rapture or resurrection at the beginning of the tribulation
— Says Christ is returning twice
— Provides justification for viewing the parousia as a long drawn out seven year experience
— Breaks the first resurrection into multiple events, one or some of which occur before the tribulation.
Pre-trib is assumed and eisegeted into passages. “No, this reference to the parousia is a reference to the pre-trib rapture, and that reference to the parousia is a reference to the second coming.” But no evidence is presented to justify multiple returns of Christ, or to see these references to the time of Christ’s parousia as multiple events.
Anonymous
Link Hudson CHRIST returning 2 times is a simple calvinistic post-mil lie that post-tribbers like to use as their own. BECAUSE Neil Steven Lawrence TerryandNita Wiles their theory cannot explain how they will JUMP in the air for a split second just to return back on earth before the second is over AND when they cant explain this simple misconception in their theory, next is denial of the church going to heaven BECAUSE this is what post-trib post-mil is all about denial of SCPIPTURE
Anonymous
Troy Day I don’t know how many seconds, minutes, etc. it will take for the dead to be raised and they that are alive and remain to be raptured to meet the Lord in the air and for the Lord to return. but there is no problem there to explain. Why is that some kind of problem for pre-trib? That doesn make sense.
Pre-tribbers adding a trip upward and waiting seven years… with no scripture to back it up…is the problem. That runs against the plain sense of the text, for example, with II Thessalonians 1. It also forces separating some passages about the parousia from other passages about the parousia by a period of seven years, with no scripture to back it up.
Pre- and post- tribbers both believe the saints rise and then go down. Pre-tribbers add a seven year wait without any Biblical evidence for it.
I’ve been after you for years to show some scripture that indicates that the rapture occurs before the tribulation. The best you have come up with so far is John being told ‘Come up hither.’ If that is your case, seriously, why do you dig in your heels and pre-trib? Why not just be open to a straightforward interpretation of these passages of scripture?
Anonymous
Troy Day
Gives a new meaning to: “church hopping“
This would also mean that the Lamb’s Supper will become fast food!
The Post-Tribber viewpoint on the Rapture is completely schizophrenic!
Will the Pre-Trib people have the biggest “I-told-you-so” in human history – yes! 🧐🤏😵💫
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence he aint hopping much on the MT24 OP today 🙂
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence the word your looking for here is biblical. Post trib view is very very biblical.
Pre trib viewpoint however is very self centered.
Anonymous
Neil Steven Lawrence the announcement of the marriage supper is not at the beginning of the book of Revelation, right before the pSsage about the King of kings on white horse, right before the first resurrection. It doesn’t say the marriage supper of the Lamb is in heaven. Pretrib is based on assuming Pretrib and reading those ideas into scripture.
Anonymous
This was an awesome read
Anonymous
James Pinkerton you actually went and read the WHOLE thing?
Anonymous
Troy Day Yes
Anonymous
James Pinkerton how long did it take you ACTUALLY 🙂
Troy Day
Brett Dobbs literally cannot believe that James Pinkerton literally read through all these comments This must be a NEw world record Jeffrey Snyder must relate to Dan Anthony and challenge him to literally JUST DO IT too https://lifecoach4god.life/2013/06/17/50-reasons-for-a-pretribulational-rapture-by-dr-john-f-walvoord/
Brett Dobbs
Troy Day I could come up wit 100 scriptures that pre post trib. But you still wouldn’t believe it.
James Pinkerton
Troy Day Hey now why the insult you and I have the same eschatology.
Troy Day
James Pinkerton oh why insult? it was ment as a compliment – you must be catholic like Philip Williams to put yourself thourgh such pannace
Troy Day
a fine 1000+ comments talk you can direct your stundets to read before class starts 🙂 Tony Richie We cant thank you enough…
Tony Richie
Troy Day thank you for this fascinating piece. Could you PM me the original bibliography info, please?