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Michel Gutman | PentecostalTheology.com
Someone please explain to me how the most basic written word of God somehow lost it’s meaning to so many. Nowhere is it written to keep “a” Sabbath. It is written to keep “the” Sabbath. Yeshua himself kept it. His disciples kept it. And it was, and still is on Saturday (Shabbat), the seventh day. I look forward to the day when everyone has understanding.
Eric Shonebarger [01/29/2016 8:41 AM]
How does the Christian practice of church attendance relate to Sabbath keeping?
Michel Gutman [01/29/2016 8:44 AM]
It doesn’t. But it certainly implies it. And many churches even refer to Sunday as the Sabbath. God worked on Sunday. He rested on Saturday. And He commanded us to do the same. That command never changed.
Eric Shonebarger [01/29/2016 8:46 AM]
What would that look like? Sabbaths were around long before synagogues,
Michel Gutman [01/29/2016 8:47 AM]
I didn’t post this to start a debate. I love the church. I worship on Sunday, because that is the day when my church has services. I simply long for the day when the world (and the church) honors the Sabbath in the manner that God commanded.
Terry Wiles [01/29/2016 8:47 AM]
The Book of Acts has the Answer. Read carefully.
Stan Wayne [01/29/2016 8:48 AM]
You are crazy – have you ever heard of dispensations – have you ever considered the International Date Line – what if you lived in Little Diomede Island and went to church on Big Diomede Island across the dateline?
Michel Gutman [01/29/2016 8:48 AM]
Nothing to do with synagogues or churches. When you ask what it would look like, it brings me back to my childhood in Israel. Saturday was a quiet day. All businesses were closed. People stayed home and honored God’s command.
Stan Wayne [01/29/2016 8:49 AM]
^^^ That is because the command was to Jews
Michel Gutman [01/29/2016 8:50 AM]
Really Stan Wayne? Who was Jewish in Genesis 2:3?
Eric Shonebarger [01/29/2016 8:50 AM]
Stan Wayne, I think you can be a Christian and view Sabbath keeping as a spiritual discipline.
Stan Wayne [01/29/2016 8:51 AM]
People love to bring themselves under law – but if you do you may just have fallen from grace
Michel Gutman [01/29/2016 8:52 AM]
Absolutely, Eric Shonebarger. I am Jewish. And I am a believer. By the way, I attend a Pentecostal church.
Eric Shonebarger [01/29/2016 8:54 AM]
Stan Wayne that’s like saying prayer can bring you under the law. It should be a choice to do it: “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day”–that knife cuts both ways. Don’t judge those who do it. Don’t judge those who don’t. As a believer I can practice a Sabbath day in preparation for the ultimate rest I will receive in Christ as the eschaton. At the same time I can choose not to as I am not under the law.
Stan Wayne [01/29/2016 8:55 AM]
“For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.”
Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience,
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.”
Hebrews 4:4, 6, 9-10 ESV
Every day is Sabbath to believers who have entered rest
Stan Wayne [01/29/2016 8:56 AM]
Legalism schmegalism
Eric Shonebarger [01/29/2016 8:56 AM]
Stan Wayne, I don’t think your positions addresses the already-not-yet position of our salvation… Yes I have entered into rest, but not fully yet.
Stan Wayne [01/29/2016 9:00 AM]
Yes I have – I have rested from works or I am obligated to obey the whole law that was not even meant for me
What Sabbath should the residents of Little Diomede island keep when they work at fishing on Big Diomede – International Date Lines didn’t exist in Jewish history when Sabbath was ordained – what time does the Sabbath start when God rested – sundown in Israel – it is all inappropriate for the church age when the church covers the globe
John Conger [01/29/2016 9:03 AM]
Acts 15 is pretty plain. So is Col. 216 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: {in meat…: or, for eating and drinking} {respect: or, part}
Michel Gutman [01/29/2016 9:07 AM]
Correct, John Conger. No man can judge you. But God can.
Stan Wayne [01/29/2016 9:11 AM]
Legalist shenanigans
Stan Wayne [01/29/2016 9:12 AM]
Judaizing shenanigans
Maziya Sibeko [01/29/2016 9:21 AM]
Is sabbath keeping a mosaic law?
Stan Wayne [01/29/2016 9:23 AM]
Yes
Stan Wayne [01/29/2016 9:26 AM]
““You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.”
Exodus 20:7-11 ESV
Michel Gutman [01/29/2016 9:26 AM]
God blessed the Sabbath and made it Holy in Genesis 2… For all mankind…
Varnel Watson
Tom Steele The historical Pentecostal understanding of the sabbath has been that it is what it is – and OT outlived legalism not needed to be forced on the NT believer. Truth is only some newly charismatic formations (separate from true Pentecostalism) have began partial assumption of the Judaism roots for Christians and American Israelism – both major theological failures BTW. Paul explicitly commanded ALL judaizers to be castrated – how do you read/feel about this such an appropriate text from Galatians?
Tom Steele
The reality is that what today is called Pentecostal Christianity is a mere 100 or so years old. It was ultimately born out of Protestant Christianity, which is a mere 500 years old. That was born out of Catholicism, which is somewhere around 1500-1800 years old, going back to Constantine and the heretical blending of the faith and teachings of the Apostles and first century Believers with outright pagan religions. This is all basic knowledge.
Sure, the Protestant Reformation was a step in the right direction, but we are well aware that there were many flaws with what came out of it as well. Perhaps the same can be said of early Pentecostalism? Sure, there were a lot of things right about the early Pentecostal movement, a renewal of spiritual gifts and the supernatural power of God moving on the Earth. But obviously they had some things wrong too. Perhaps, just maybe, what is happening today is a result of the same efforts of God to return His people to His Word.
Here’s what I can say with absolute confidence: Nobody is going to be penalized for obeying the Bible. The only people who can be penalized are those who strive against the Bible. That CAN mean that those who do not observe the Sabbath properly and even on the proper day MAY be running the risk of being penalized. What that penalty may be and how severe it may be are not clear, but just the very fact that a penalty can possibly exist, and further that the penalty may go all the way to eternal separation from God in hell, should cause anyone to want to obey the Bible to the best of their ability.
I do not know a single person in the entirety of Christianity who would think that observing the Sabbath Day of rest is a burden. Those who believe and teach that the Sabbath is bondage clearly do not have a proper understanding of the Sabbath. It’s the same with so many other Torah instructions. It is a lack of proper understanding, and you clearly lack that understanding yourself if you feel the way you are presenting yourself. Of course, it’s always possible and has crossed my mind that you simply post argumentatively in order to keep discussions going, which is fine too… more people might see your posts and comments, but they will see mine too. I think most intelligent people can easily discern between the attitude of many in this group and the hard facts I bring when I present some of the things you guys don’t like so much, especially what’s in the articles I have written and share to back up my points.
Good day to you, Blessing and Shalom.
Stan Wayne
No law every day a rest from works
Stan Wayne
Pentecostalism is 1st Century Christianity – with a couple of items still needing reformation
Tom Steele
Pretty much all modern Christianity is 1st Century Christianity with some things still needing reformation.
Varnel Watson
If I may quote Stan Wayne here from this previous discussion “Judaizing shenanigans” Watch the Shack and keep the Sabbath dictates new-age christianity. Non of it required by Christ in our New Testament
Tom Steele
I see another one of my comments was deleted… who’s the one with the shenanigans now?
Varnel Watson
This can be a wonderful format for discussion if we don’t let our feelings get involved. Grace works for all of us if we surrender to Christ. Michel so you keep the Sabbath. That’s great. Do you keep all the other 612 Mitzvot?
Michel Gutman
I do my best to. When I fail, God’s grace protects me. I don’t do them for salvation. I do them to honor Him.
Varnel Watson
Tom Steele Wouldnt you say that Pentecostals got this one right?
Tom Steele
Troy Day, I have put out three detailed articles about the Sabbath Day. As the OP states, the Word of God is clear about the Sabbath Day. It is defined in Scripture but as the seventh day of the week and beginning at sunset. Unless Pentecostals agree with this definition of the Sabbath Day, they simply do not have it right. On top of that, it is the FOURTH COMMANDMENT. I mean, how do you even get around that? It was established on the seventh day of the week of Creation, God Himself set it apart and made it holy. All the other days, God said it was good. The seventh day He set apart and made holy. How do you get around that? Seriously. This is a big deal, but most Christians remain ignorant to it and those who adhere to the blind doctrines against the Sabbath or that the Sabbath is “changed” to Sunday do so in absolute defiance to the Bible. There is no way to get around it.
Varnel Watson
How do you mean Tom The Book of Acts has the Answer. ~ Terry Wiles
Tom Steele
Sure does… over 80 Sabbath Days are documented in Acts being kept by the Apostles and first century Believers.
Varnel Watson
Acts is pretty clear: first day of the week. Cant miss it
Tom Steele
Yep… you have ONE verse that says they had a meeting on the first day of the week. It says nothing about it being the Sabbath, simply that they had a meeting where they broke bread and Paul preached. AND, on top of that, all indications are that this meeting took place on “Saturday night”, as a Hebrew day begins at sunset and Paul preached until midnight. Seems unlikely he started preaching at 10:00am in accordance with a modern Church schedule and went all the way until midnight between Sunday and Monday.
Also, the key phrase in Acts 20:7 is “mia ton sabbaton”. This is translated “first day of the week”, but sabbaton obviously refers to the Sabbath. Properly this would be understood as “the first day to Sabbath” or “the first day of seven” or something like that. In other words, it was in line with Hebrew thinking of a week, this was the first day of the weekly countdown to Sabbath. With this in mind, it proves that they still considered the Sabbath to be from sunset Friday to sunset Saturday. This phrase absolutely proves that to be true.
Since there is no commandment anywhere in the Bible requiring corporate worship on the Sabbath or denying corporate worship on any day outside of the Sabbath, this passage does not pose any specific problem with the Sabbath continuing as it always had in Acts.
Over 80 records are in Acts that the Apostles kept the seventh say Sabbath. They maintained the same custom as Jesus did of attending the Synagogue services. The Bible clearly points out every time consistently that this was a custom, not the fulfillment of the commandment. But there is a good example of the commandment being kept in Luke’s Gospel where the women rested from their work of preparing spices for the body of Jesus on the Sabbath Day… the correct Sabbath Day.
Between these 80+ records of the correct Sabbath being kept—because you know good and well the Synagogues did not start meeting on the first day of the week—and the record in Acts 20:7 of “mia ton sabbaton”… the first day until the Sabbath… it is absolutely proven that the Sabbath was not changed and that you, Troy Day, once again, are wrong.
Varnel Watson
Not a meeting b one single meeting but a meeting of breaking the bread every day. The Greek of the text is pretty adamant about that
Jesus was risen on Sunday
They obviously did not celebrate that on Saturday
Tom Steele
Right, the met daily. That is true. They met on “the first day” to commemorate the resurrection. That appears to be true. But in all that, they NEVER redefined the Sabbath Day. The Sabbath Day remained The Sabbath Day.
Varnel Watson
The redefinition of the Sabbath day comes from the fact that after the resurrection the apostles changed the meeting from Saturday to Sunday. They simply did not keep the resurrection on Saturday This goes without a question
Now if we look deeper in the Acts text it is without a doubt that the present continues tense of the verse denotes regular Sunday meetings not merely one time only. By the time Acts recorded it was already a custom for the early church. Meeting on Sunday was a given tradition for the Lukian community that was to receive and read his book on Acts
To say, they never redefined is an argument from silence Same argument could be made that it is no where recorded in the Bible for any Christian church to have met on Saturday a common Resurrection meeting and Communion breaking of bread; Church history confirms that without a shadow of a doubt. There’s simply no argument about it!
Tom Steele
What does meeting on a Sunday or any day have to do with the Sabbath? There is no commandment regarding meeting or not meeting on the Sabbath. Your point, whether right or wrong, is completely irrelevant to the Sabbath.
Louise Cummings
What does it mean in Hebrews 10:24-25. And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works. (25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is ; and so much the more , as you see the day approaching. ( I believe when we assemble together. It encourages. Stay out of Church for a while , and you get to where it doesn’t matter if we go to church or not. We loose our desire. It’s not that tee or three are getting tighter. Usually it turns out , I feel like , you don’t have much of a desire for the Lord. I know it can happen. Like you were saying. But how many times does it?
Tom Steele
Louise Cummings, I don’t think the issue here is meeting. Clearly the Bible says that you can meet in assembly on any day of the week. And, there is nothing that says you have to meet on the Sabbath or that the only acceptable day to meet is the Sabbath. The problem seems to be the defining and “redefining” of when the Sabbath actually is. Scripture defines the Sabbath as the seventh day of the week. This is the Fourth Commandment in the Ten Commandments. The Sabbath is what it is. Hebrews also tells us that the Sabbath remains. Whether people choose to meet every day including the Sabbath, every day except the Sabbath, only on the Sabbath, only on Sunday, or Sunday and Wednesday, it is all irrelevant to WHEN the Sabbath is. The Sabbath remains defined as the seventh day according to a Biblical day that begins and ends at sunset, so the Sabbath on our modern calendars would begin at sunset of Friday evening and conclude at sunset on Saturday evening. The commandment given is the not work on the Sabbath. There is no commandment to gather in corporate worship on the Sabbath. So whatever point Troy is trying to make about when people gather for corporate worship or completely separate from keeping the Sabbath… it has absolutely nothing to do with “Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy”.
Louise Cummings
I didn’t say the Sabbath was Saturday. I just said the Bible not to forsake the assembling of ourselves and so much more as you see the day approaching. But Jesus arouse on the first Day Of The week. Which I think Jesus should be first in everything. I know the Bible said. He created the Heavens in six days and rested on the Sabbath. They kept the seventh day to be the Sabbath. But in the New Testament it is brought out the first day of the week. Yes I will agree any day we meet , should be to worship God in Spirit and in truth.
Terry Wiles
Tom Steele.
So how would “you” keep it Holy? What does that mean to “you?”
Tom Steele
I think Exodus 20:8-11 sums it up perfectly, the Fourth Commandment in the Ten Commandments:
“Remember Yom Shabbat, to keep it holy. You are to work six days, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Shabbat to Adonai your God. In it you shall not do any work—not you, nor your son, your daughter, your male servant, your female servant, your cattle, nor the outsider that is within your gates. For in six days Adonai made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Thus Adonai blessed Yom Shabbat, and made it holy.”
Also, Genesis 2:2-3
“God completed—on the seventh day—His work that He made, and He ceased—on the seventh day—from all His work that He made. Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, for on it He ceased from all His work that God created for the purpose of preparing.”
God set the seventh day apart and made it holy on the seventh day of the history of the created world. He said to do no work on the seventh day.
It has nothing to do with when we meet for Church. You can go to a corporate religious gathering if you want on the Sabbath, Jesus did, all the Apostles did. It’s clearly documented in the Gospels and Acts. But the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy is that you don’t work on the Sabbath. It’s really that simple.
This is one that I just don’t understand for the life of me why it is so hard for Christians to grasp.
I really think everyone struggling with this matter would do good to read my articles that I posted below in comments on this post. You will see what the Sabbath is… and what it IS NOT.
Terry Wiles
Tom Steele instead of quoting scripture that we all read give us some practical examples from your life in the way “you” specifically keep the day holy.
Tom Steele
I don’t work on the Sabbath and I view it as time to celebrate God as the Creator and to celebrate His Creation. This is in harmony with the context of Genesis 2, which is fully explained in my articles below.
Louise Cummings
To keep it Holy as every day should be kept Holy. But to keep it Holy. You lay aside fun and recreation , fishing and all other stuff that’s not putting God First. We should keep him first every day. Wit we should reverence God enough. That you give that day for the Lord, that He should have a Special day of Worship. You can make yours any day you like. I won’t condemn you for it. But for me I think the Bible brings it out the first day of the week.
Tom Steele
Do you believe God is God? Think about it… God Himself said “Remember the Sabbath Day and keep it holy. Do not work on the Sabbath”. God said that! Either you believe God is God or you do not. Anyone who questions God likely does not REALLY believe that God is God. Most people today seem to believe their pet doctrines over believing God. He said to do this. At the end of the day, that’s all I need to know. God said it, that settles it. There is no debate about anything God said to do (or that He said not to do).
Scotty Searan
I know it has been said but this is what was written in Colossians to the Gentiles.
Those that teach men contrary to these verses are teaching a false doctrine according to verse 8. You can’t apply Hebrewic scriptures to these scriptures because the ordinances of the Jewish law was put to death on the cross. Verse 14 & 15.
Colossians 2:6-17
6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Alexander M.
To whom it may concern, I’m just going to leave this here:
I read a lot of “interpretations“ of scripture, but what is clearly written in the 10 commandments of God, written with His own finger, which need no interpretation?
Commandment #4 “Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.” Exodus 20:8 KJV
“And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:” Mark 2:27 KJV (made for man -mankind, no just the Jews.)
“If ye love me, keep my commandments.” John 14:15 KJV (this includes #4)
“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”James 2:10 KJV
Jesus in the NT did not abolish the Law, the commandments:
““Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.”
Matthew 5:17-18 NIV
None of these above verses require ”interpretation”. Read them as they are. Clear precise, simple.
You may want to reconsider your “interpretations” of biblical verses if they lead you to neglect the clear written law of God, in order to justify yourself in not keeping His law, the Law which reflects His character and will. That may be the deceiver entrapping you to act against God’s will.
We still don’t accept #6 murderers, #8 thieves, #7 disloyal spouses, #10 jealous people, #9 liars, #5 disrespectful children… By no means does this mean we are living under some old law, because we still hold these true. What is so disturbing to the world in regards to Commandment #4?
“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”James 2:10 KJV
God bless.