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Dr. Amos Yong, Dr. Brian Zahnd, Dr. Craig S. Keener, Dr. Johnathan Alvarado, Dr. Joseph R. Kidwell, Dr. Richard E. Waldrop, Dr. Paul Paul Walker and many more address President Trump on vital issues of policy, church and society in 2018
Dear Mr. President,
We, leaders in the Pentecostal-Charismatic movement, who share the belief in God’s Word, salvation uniquely found in Jesus Christ and the continuing ministry of the Holy Spirit and His gifts, write to you today on the anniversary of your inauguration.
We write this to, with great respect, express dissatisfaction, discomfort and distrust in your policies and behavior.
As Pentecostals and Charismatics, one of our distinctive focuses is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is also called the Spirit of Christ Jesus, and it is incongruous for us to claim His gifts while walking and working in a way that does not follow Jesus’ teachings, commands, and heart. Because we follow the Spirit of Christ, we cannot support anti-Christlike words, behavior, policies and values of any person, even if it’s the president of the United States.
When looking at your political work and administration, we are deeply critical to:
- The demonization of immigrants and minorities. Lev 19:33-34 clearly states that we should love immigrants as ourselves and treat them as natives. Repeatedly describing immigrants as dangerous and criminal, as well as banning millions of them to enter the United States, is contrary to the Christian way. Likewise, the way you talk about African Americans, Mr. President, claiming that they are responsible for most murders, is highly upsetting.
- The reckless nuclear war rhetoric and preparations towards North Korea. Jesus told us to love our enemies (Matt 5:44) and Paul emphasized that we seek peace with all people (Rom 12:18). While the situation for North Korea’s people is severe and needs to be addressed, your bombastic threats to “totally destroy” the entire country, your confusing disregard for diplomatic solutions and your fascination for nuclear bombsmakes the situation alarming. You are risking the lives of millions of civilians in this dangerous game, and we call on you to listen more carefully to your diplomatic advisors.
- The loosening of protections for the environment. We are critical to your disregard for the dangers of climate change, Mr. President. You announced that the US would exit the Paris accord, you put a climate change denier in charge of the EPA, and you have simply forbidden several government agencies to mention climate change on their websites. Climate change will kill millions of people unless we do anything about it, and the Bible condemns those who “destroy the earth” (Rev 11:8).
- The disrespect, belittling and abuse of women. You, Mr. President, have honestly said some horrible things about women, including that you would like to grope them and have extramarital sex with them. You initially asked for forgiveness for these sinful comments, but you later have tried to sow doubts about whether you even said them, and you belittle the 16 women that accuse you of sexual harassment. The Bible is clear with sexual immorality being contrary to the Kingdom of God (Col 3:5), and we cannot accept that you continue with this behavior.
- The continuing disrespect for and breaking of sacred treaties with indigenous people. While you are hostile towards immigration of refugees, Mr. President, you seem to show little respect towards the native Americans whom your people oppressed and stole from in order to build the United States. You went forward with the Dakota Access Pipeline with no regard to how it destroys native American land, and you were extremely insensitive when you were to honor native American war veterans in front of a picture of Andrew Jackson, using degrading racial slur. The Bible tells us to do to others as we would have them do to us (Matt 7:12), and we highly doubt that you would like to be treated like you treat racial minorities.
- The growing inequalities between rich and poor. The Bible says that “the goal is equality” between rich and poor (2 Cor 8:14), which is why the early Christians eliminated economic differences as the Holy Spirit filled them (Acts 2:44-45). Supporting a tax bill that makes lives worse for the poor while the rich like yourself get massive tax cuts is indefensible.
- The dishonesty and lying of the administration. The Bible is clear: each of us must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to our neighbor (Eph 4:25). We are deeply troubled with how easily you and your administration are able to tell straight up lies, whether it’s about crowd sizes, illegal voting, wiretapping or, as mentioned, that you boasted about groping women.
We call on you to repent, to read and understand what you have described as your favorite book, the Bible, and to be filled with and obey the Holy Spirit. We will pray for you and your administration, and we deeply hope that you will change your ways.
Kindest regards,
Amos Yong, Professor Of Theology And Mission at Fuller Theological Seminary, Assemblies of God, California.
Brian Zahnd, Pastor, Word of Life Church, Missouri.
Craig S. Keener, Professor of New Testament at Asbury Theological Seminary, Great Commission Fellowship Vineyard, Kentucky.
Jane Caulton, Minister, Greater Mount Calvary Holy Church, District of Columbia.
Johnathan Alvarado, Pastor of Grace Church International Atlanta, Georgia.
Florian Berndt, Theologian, Fatherheart Ministries, Germany.
Danek Bourgoin, Professor, United Pentecostal Church International, Canada.
Arthur Bucher, Church leader, Circle of Hope, Pennsylvania.
Rev. Kevin Daugherty, Bivocational Pastor, Unfailing Love, Pennsylvania.
Dennis DuPont, Chaplain, Church of God, Maryland.
Rudy Estrada, Dean of Academic Affairs, LABI College, California.
Torbjörn Freij, Pastor, Vineyard Fellowship, Sweden.
Micael Grenholm, Editor-in-chief for PCPJ, Mosaik Church, Sweden.
Rev. Donald Guffey, Ordained Minister, Assemblies of God, Tennessee.
Erik Holke, Theological Seminar Leader, Saron Church Gothenburg, Sweden
Sian-chin Iap, Postdoctoral Fellow, Chungli Assembly of God, Taiwan.
Joseph R. Kidwell, Pastor, Greater Grace & Deliverance Ministries, Florida.
PsyD Marcus Kilian, Psychologist, Real Life Church, Minnesota.
David Ketter, Pastor, The Village Church, Pennsylvania.
Dave Larson, Missionary Humanitarian Worker, Christ Commission Fellowship, Philippines.
Rev. Samuel J. Lopez, Pastor, Amazing Love Sanctuary, Colorado.
James Melnarik, Youth Leader, Havenhouse Foursquare, California.
D. E. “Gene” Mills Jr, Clergy and scholar, Church of God (Cleveland, TN).
L. William Oliverio Jr., Associate Academic Dean Assemblies of God, The School of Urban Missions, California.
Daniel J. Schmitz, Lead Pastor, New Hope Covenant Church, California.
Aaron Taylor, Filmmaker, Life Church, New Mexico.
Rev. Faith Totushek, Pastor, Way Finders, Minnesota.
Dr. Richard E. Waldrop, Missionary, Church of God (Cleveland, TN), Tennessee.
Paul Walker, Pastor of The Meeting Place, Canada.
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Scotty Searan
I disagree with this letter.
They never wrote a letter like this to President Obama
They are using Old Testament scriptures for their own promotions.
They did not mention the scripture where you should obey authorities.
Some were asking selfishly for their own political agenda.
Some were even questioning his past repentance.
This letter has a religious tone, but not a Christ’s disciples tone.
Keith
I also disagree. The ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS statement by these “Leaders” miss the aspect that it is an illegal invasion of our country and breaking of sovereign U.S. law. These preachers are not my leaders. As far as the environmental craziness of the liberal socialists, it strangles many opportunities for families to prosper and provide for their own. My advice is for them to go to Mexico or central America and preach down there.
Varnel Watson
Thank you Joseph Kidwell
Scotty Searan
I will comment more on this letter, but it sounds like a polical agenda under the cloak of Repentance. Purely hypocritical
Larry Ray Talley
Purely predictable.
Joe S Brooks
At least we are leaving the judging to God
Rick Slotboom
I am a Pentecostal theologian who graduated cum laude from a classical Pentecostal seminary and also have studied philosophy. For many years I have been involved in a Dutch evangelical political party of a type that doesn’t exist in the U.S. (ChristenUnie) that is conservative on moral issues and progressive on social and environmental issues (the Netherlands are more of a middle of the road and consensus country than the US). Now, I do have a heart and a concern for the people and issues and concerns that these theologians are speaking out for. Some of the Pentecostal theologians mentioned above like Amos Yong I consider to be like intellectual mentors through their books. However, more recently I have come to reassess my political alignments, which I’m still in the process of. One of the main reasons for this was reading the Killing of Uncle Sam by Rodney Howard Browne and Paul Williams. Now, I don’t buy into things like the idea of a globalist conspiracy easily and am still in the process of critically analysing it, but my preliminary conclusions are that probably much of it is true, as is the conclusion of many experts who were sceptical until they checked the evidence footnote by footnote. Now, if even part of this is true, than the errors of Donald Trump against which these theologians are arguing are very minor compared to the real issues involved. This makes me very sad, because I greatly respect and honor many of the theologians that have written this letter. It makes me sad, because it seems that they are unwittingly supporting the destruction of the church (yes, it’sprobably that bad, check it out fb or yourselves) . I make an urgent call on all of these theologians and any one of you to read the book mentioned and come up with a careful debate that will lead to a balanced assessment of the situation and reconsider your statements. There may not be much time left. I’m not just the next uncritical person, and many friends I have who are theologians, of different churches, consider me better informed. I never make an intellectual judgment uninformed or without critical investigation. I always listen to people with different perspectives. To these beloved theologians who have taught me how to think as a pentecostal I make an urgent appeal to study these materials and reassess the current situation carefully. You seem to be completely missing what is really important right now, whatever the right solution might be. We need a good intellectual debate about these issues before it will not be possible anymore. So please.
Brian Fulthorp
it smells like #fakenews
Christie Rosa
has anybody really read the letter do you hear these people I’m a Christian and everyday by the grace of God he forgives me. But you actually have a president who stand up against people aborting babies what is wrong with these people it’s okay to kill babies you want to talk about genocide look at all the millions of babies are being killed throughout the world in the United States and you say that’s okay. you actually have a present to come out and stand for pro-life and not sugarcoat it. But you have all these other politicians you won’t talk about it look at the politicians for 40 to 50 years about behavior really it’s a sad sad sad that these so-called theologians think like that. This is the first president actually stand up for freedom for religion to bring back prayer in the schools what is wrong with you people I know in the last days is called false prophet false Christians false teachers it’s a shame that they wrote that when I have all these other people in Congress and the Senate won’t even say God.
Varnel Watson
Well, Dr. Amos Yong, Dr. Brian Zahnd, Dr. Craig S. Keener are not small hitters. Their character and integrity precedes their theology
Randy
Just because a person has right theology doesn’t mean they are right politically.
Jim Price
Scotty: While I doubt that this letter will ever be seen by the president and if seen will not be read in detail, nevertheless the tone and spirit of the letter is right on. I wonder which detail you are at odds with?
Walter Polasik
Troy Day: Then they must haver poor theology and from what I gather from the letter, it seems they do. I read through it and smacked my head. If this is really what they’re asking for then let me say it here and now: Liberalism is alive and well in Charismatic circles. Also, unfortunately, I have to say it’s probably because we’re talking a bout a lot of black and Hispanic Charismatics that we have liberal-leaning/dripping comments/theology from them. I mean no disrespect here but politically it’s been known for a while that Christian or not, “minorities” (there’s a word that’s going to get a change of representation…you and I are well on our way to becoming that!) have usually voted Democrat. It seems that with them, their politics and faith don’t mix too well. Yes, the Bible says that life is sacred but. . . well, this is the 21st century, we NEED abortions. And yes the Bible says in Christ we’re all one body…but if you listen to some proponents on talk radio. . .black Christians from even the Reformed circle, they “don’t feel safe” worshipping with white brothers who elected Trump. Yeah. Real unity there.
But, for instance, Paul Walker is NOT a “minority” and HE subscribed to this claptrap? Let’s see what points they made and how biblical they are:
1. Trump “demonizes” immigrants and says they’re responsible for “most” of the crime in the country. Well, before we get to the biblical part of this point, let’s take a hard look at the facts. When speaking of Mexican and other Latino immigrants—ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS —(there’s the part our sniveling bunch forgot to mention)—it has been recorded time and time again that they are, in fact, responsible for so much of the crime, especially (but not exclusive to) the West and Southwest of the country. Drug pushers, human trafficking pedlers, and, (not to be forgotten) GANG MEMBERS. Mala Salvatrucha alone (that’s MS-13) was the specific focus of Trump’s crackdown on deadly gangs in the U.S. that are PRIMARILY made up of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. Now, it’s not just bad Latinos we have to watch out for. How about the Russian Mafia? They’re out there. Now, our conscientious lamenters have written that, after all, God directed Israel to LOVE the alien and stranger, right? (They cite Leviticus 19:33,34) But, as usual with Liberal theology (liberal ANYTHING for that matter) they leave half the story out. Typical. I draw your attention to Deuteronomy 28:43 where Moses tells the people that, if they would not walk with God, several things would be characteristic of their land (which, in fact happened to Israel time and time again…and is a good parallel for what has been happening in America). Moses warned them that the “stranger who is among you” (immigrant) would “rise higher and higher above you and you shall go lower and lower”. Due to unrestrained, unchecked immigration, this is EXACTLY what is happening in the country. Historically, one must admit that America was once PRIMARILY majority-white. The second runner up were the African peoples we had brought here (and our treatment of whom was a conscience-tester to the whole nation). After that you had ever-present natives and a rising Latino population. But there was no such thing as “multi-culturalism” in America. Not really even up until the mid-1970’s!
Every country has immigrants, but NO country (until the U.K., then Germany and France) has been stupid enough to annihilate its stock culture by a flood-tide of the world. The non-white countries of the world aren’t doing that. Not Japan, or India, or China. Even sneaky, lucrative Switzerland wouldn’t do that. (They don’t bring in immigrants…they bring in money). We also note that when Israel left Egypt a “mixed multitude” went with them. (Ex. 12:38). It was that “mixed multitude” that also caused trouble for Israel on the journey. Much later in Israel’s history, when the Law was reintroduced to what had been a wayward nation, they also realized they couldn’t keep their purity not only as a people of God, but as a nation, if they had the “mixed multitude” in their midst. So they separated them. (Neh.13:3). We are to love the immigrant, but we are also to watch the safety of our borders and keep the cohesiveness of our country. We already have enough of a “mixed multitude” here, we don’t need more. Showing love to an immigrant MINORITY (and that, by the way, was always the safe proportion in ANY country) is one thing. Letting in floods of half the world so as to disintegrate the demographics, society and culture we have had for the past 200 years….that’s another thing altogether. And let me put it in stark perspective for you. By 2050, sociologists say, whites will be a minority. That’s a very conservative estimate. I’m thinking probably around 2030, 2025. Now, think with me. At that time, when a white man says, “Our Founding Fathers” referring to Washington, Madison, Jefferson et. al., what do you think the MAJORITY is going to say? “WHOSE founding fathers? THOSE dead, slave-owning white guys? Not OURS!” And that will be the end of that. You think I’m kidding just take a survey of the kinds of things being said in contemporary social-studies TODAY. So, I think Trump has a pretty good handle on the immigrant situation. . . .
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Wow a lot of stereotypes and generalizations that are not true in this comment especially about blacks and our theology/politics. Most of us reformed theology blacks are republican (me included). In case you didn’t know many Pentecostals today are reformed but most Pentecostal heads are shoved so far up their (well you know) we miss the changing tide and mislabel what we don’t understand. Whites may become the minority in race but not in power or wealth over the next 20 years so let’s not kid ourselves with social science which is the original fake ness we have allowed to socially engineer us for generations. Think about this if we let a woman choose to have an abortion are we not functioning more like God than if we decide for them. God gives free choice he forces no one to follow him. It’s not our responsibility to limit choices it’s or responsibility to provide the moral compass. The issue is that most of us do not nearly fit on one side of the isle anymore. So though we may lean one way we are loyal to he word of God and the candidate closes to our faith. Power and privilege feels like racism when restricted. Until we decide to stop being disingenuous nothing in his country is going to change. I really wonder if we honestly think the Holy Spirit is leading us to say most of the things we post…
Ryan Titus
It never ceases to amaze me at the level of pontification and sanctimony by so called religious leaders who take it upon themselves to position themselves above the rest. As a Pentecostal I am shocked and dismayed to say the least at the high-mindedness that these scholars have displayed to talk down to the President of the United States of American and that is such a demeaning manner! Shame of you!
Anonny
No, we are not like God when we allow no laws. We have a choice even when there are laws. He let Moses make laws and God gave us the ten commandments, which is what Moses went by. He gave us policeman and lawmen and he says to obey the laws of the land, so that we won’t have chaos, which is what we have now. People who don’t have the Holy Spirit living in them, do not go by the laws – that’s why we have laws to give freedom for those who live in the Holy Spirit and it helps everyone to have peace. The Bible talks about lawlessness that will come (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), 2 Peter 2:8
. . realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers. I Timothy 1:9
Because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. Matthew 24:12
Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God’s wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God’s wrath but also for the sake of conscience. … Romans 13:1-14
Payback is not what God advocates for us. He is the only true judge. He says “forgive your enemies” not pay them back. If I paid back everything that has been done to me, I would be in prison, rightly so, but because I know that my sins are forgiven, I want to extend that mercy to whoever offends me only by His help. I can’t do it in my flesh, but by the help of the Holy Spirit. And yes, I think the Holy Spirit is leading me to post this. If we research some of the things that are going on in our country, it leads to money and covering sin. If we are discerning, by the Holy Spirit, we can see this. President Trump was trying to expose this. It is not easy to face the truth because it might cause us to look inward instead of outward. God bless everyone who is looking for truth.
Kevin Wayne
“Then they must haver poor theology and from what I gather from the letter, it seems they do”
Some of the deepest theology I’ve read would come from people I’m sure you would choke on their politics. You assertion here is baseless.
“liberal-leaning/dripping comments/theology from them. I mean no disrespect here but politically it’s been known for a while that Christian or not, “minorities” (there’s a word that’s going to get a change of representation…you and I are well on our way to becoming that!) have usually voted Democrat”
Because historically, they have had to learn to petition their government in order to enjoy the same simple freedoms you and I take for granted. If you don’t like it, try listening to them for once and let what they say shape your politics and act on it – instead of trying to insist others shape theirs to suit you.
“black Christians from even the Reformed circle, they “don’t feel safe” worshipping with white brothers who elected Trump. Yeah. Real unity there”
Again, expecting others to deny lived experiences to suit you.
“ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS —(there’s the part our sniveling bunch forgot to mention)—it has been recorded time and time again that they are, in fact, responsible for so much of the crime”
Nope: https://www.cato.org/blog/immigration-myths-crime-number-illegal-immigrants
https://www.cato.org/blog/new-report-illegal-immigrant-criminality-reveals-little-admits-its-own-shortcomings
And CATO’s hardly what you would call “Liberal,” so you can keep your stereotypes to yourself.
“Moses warned them that the “stranger who is among you” (immigrant) would “rise higher and higher above you and you shall go lower and lower”. Due to unrestrained, unchecked immigration, this is EXACTLY what is happening in the country.”
Wow, talk about reading your theology into the text [Deut 28] – Oh wait, what do we call someone who does that? Usually a LIBERAL.
“Historically, one must admit that America was once PRIMARILY majority-white”
*yawn* Who cares.
“but NO country (until the U.K., then Germany and France) has been stupid enough to annihilate its stock culture by a flood-tide of the world”
Word: The US doesn’t have *a* culture. Even if you only count whites, there’s a difference when you go Oregon, vs the Deep South, vs NYC. Always has been.
“The non-white countries of the world aren’t doing that. Not Japan, or India, or China”
And Japan is paying for it, too – with a greying population.
“We also note that when Israel left Egypt a “mixed multitude” went with them. (Ex. 12:38). It was that “mixed multitude” that also caused trouble for Israel on the journey. Much later in Israel’s history, when the Law was reintroduced to what had been a wayward nation, they also realized they couldn’t keep their purity not only as a people of God, but as a nation, if they had the “mixed multitude” in their midst. So they separated them. (Neh.13:3):
That’s a bit of a stretch to assume they were the same people from one generation to the next. Where was Bathsheba from? why, she was married to a Hittite~! What did she eventually do? Give birth to a future king of Israel & ancestor of the Messiah. Oops, there goes your “liberal” eisegesis.
“what do you think the MAJORITY is going to say? “WHOSE founding fathers? THOSE dead, slave-owning white guys?”
They will be more realistic instead of engaging in mawkish hero-worship” Good for them~!
I think the point being made is not that there shouldn’t be some regulations on immigration, but that demonization is unhealthy. Even compassion dictates we look at WHY they are coming here. NAFTA is likely the smoking gun.
Varnel Watson
Walter Polasik
Dr. Amos Yong,
Dr. Brian Zahnd,
Dr. Craig S. Keener ???
naah – dont think so
Walter Polasik
Fine, not them. But even if they’re not minorities, they’ve sucked up the sniveling ideology of the “hurt minority”. With well-sounding words they would throw caution to the wind. SHAME ON THEM!
Kevin Wayne
“they’ve sucked up the sniveling ideology of the “hurt minority”
This just says it all about how Christlike and understanding of history you actually are. Such words should never come from a Christian. Shame on you.
Walter Polasik
2. The next point they discuss is North Korea and talk of war. “Didn’t Jesus say to LOVE your enemies” they say. . . (Matt. 5:44). Yes, He did, but you have to ask two questions with that. a. HOW. . .If a violent rapist breaks into my home, wants to rape my wife and/or harm my children, am i supposed to stand idly by and not harm him because I “love” him? What nonsense is this?!!! Better example: When Hitler rolled into Poland in 1939 what were the loving, Catholic Poles supposed to do? Stand aside and roll out the red carpet for him because God forbid they aim a howitzer at him! Of course not! They had every right to protect their nation and riddle his forces with hot lead! What these “Christian” numbskulls are advocating is pacifism of the Quaker kind or worse! Even ISRAEL finally took the hint and protected their land in 1967! Once again I say: out and out Liberalism on the part of these petitioners. b. TO WHOM is Jesus referring. To an individual or to an enemy state? What these petitioners are doing is mixing up faith-morality with proper administration of a nation-state. That’s why I’m glad none of them serve in the State Department! (What a disaster THAT would be…judging from this letter!). . . .
Walter Polasik
Their third point was a plea for the environment. As far as keeping things clean and healthy for the public, that’s not a bad thing. But, as usual with things political, I smell.. . . .things political. That is, I smell a plea for left-wing environmentalism wherein “green thinking” is used to have an influence on EVERYTHING. Trump was right to be wary of such ploys.
Kevin Wayne
I think it’s time American Christians ask themselves what is it that makes them skeevish about environmentalism. Is there really something wrong with it, or are they just swallowing Corporate propaganda without questioning the validity of said claims?
Walter Polasik
Their 5th point was to mention Native Americans again. Excuse me for asking but, last I checked, weren’t Native Americans getting serious $$$ from the government in addition to making a killing at businesses like the casino industry? As far as scholarships for higher education go, didn’t they and everyone else BESIDES REGULAR WHITE FOLKS have a little box to check off on their applications for more $$$? What IS it with these snivellers that makes them snivel so? It’s never enogh, is it? Oh, wait. . . .that IS the politics of the New Left. “Bend over backwards for us, then forwards and spread both ‘cheeks’. . .and that STILL won’t be enough. . . we want MORE.” Yup.
Finally, they say something about the gap between the rich and the poor. True enough, and Trump’s lavish dinner parties are no exception to the criticism. But then, this legitimate grievance has ALWAYS been the case, ever since the Founding Fathers. I’d just been reading an excellent American History text, “America” by George B. Tindall and David E. Shi. It clearly shows how, though even the “Founding Fathers” claimed to be “men of the people” and true representatives, the incidents of “Shay’s Rebellion” and the routing of “Coxey’s Army” (the veteran’s march on Washington) showed exactly what those in power thought of the regular folk. “Go cry at home to your mommy. We don’t give a &^%$” Oh, when it suited THEIR purposes (FDR and the New Deal) they rolled out “help”. But after a while, that efficient government expansion just morphed into more efficient TAXATION. Some help. We’ll see if anything changes under Trump.
Kevin Wayne
Taxation is a legitimate onus places on people for the use of services rendered. You use public services every single say of your life.
Walter Polasik
Finally, their points about the Trump administration “lying”…to what are they referring? Where’ the specifics? Again, sounds like a Liberal cry. If anybody lied it was the Liberal media who all along wanted people to believe Trump colluded with Putin to thwart Hillary’s election! A year later Trump is still smiling going, “You keep playing the same broken record. . .but it didn’t happen if it didn’t happen. Right?” And as for the sex-allegations, while I don’t justify Trump’s past behavior and words, our petitioners are writing him as if he were (somehow) a CHRISTIAN president. He’s not. Yes, all the same accountability is required, as is integrity. It was of JFK (who failed) and of Clinton (who failed). It’s a good thing those Pentecostal/Charismatic pastors are getting so moral with Trump. They ought also to look into their own denominations over the years and count how many times their own pastors have been involved in scandalous hanky-panky. I say what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, is all.
All in all. . . .besides two points perhaps, a horrendous Liberal-drip of a letter. I’m truly disappointed.
Micael Grenholm
Hi Walter! You ask “to what are they referring?” We explicitely say: “We are deeply troubled with how easily you and your administration are able to tell straight up lies, whether it’s about crowd sizes, illegal voting, wiretapping or, as mentioned, that you boasted about groping women.” There you go, four concrete example of Trump lying. If that wasn’t enough, we also link to this list by the NY Times listing 103 lies: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/12/14/opinion/sunday/trump-lies-obama-who-is-worse.html All lies are recorded and publicly available, for example on the President’s Twitter. I think the only legitimate reason one denies that Trump frequently lies is that one is illiterate.
Walter Polasik
Michael Grenholm: You cite an article from the NY Times. Might a well be from the Wshington Post or the Village Voice. You cite 4 items wherein Trump is said to be incorrect. Let’s check the record to see if he was. 1. Illegal voting. Did the DNC engage in something like that in 2016? Let’s find out. https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2016/10/18/project_veritas_exposes_organized_voter_fraud_on_a_massive_scale.html.
Walter Polasik
2. Wiretapping. Did Obama really try to eavesdrop on candidate Donald Trump before he was elected? Again, what does the (non-biased, non pro-Liberal) record show? http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/351495-it-looks-like-obama-did-spy-on-trump-just-as-he-did-to-me.
Walter Polasik
3. Did Trump continue to stand by his initial assertion about crowd-size on inauguration? No, in fact he readily admitted he overstated the case in a moment of braggadocio. However, what does the crowd size tells us about Trump and Obama? It tells us how heavily swayed by liberalism the country is. In 2009 people came out as if to see the Second Coming of the Messiah (in fact, that’s what Obama was called by several, no joke). The reason? (He hadn’t even done anything yet as President). . .he was black. The Scion of Liberalism incarnate. And I dare anyone to challenge that these were exactly the reasons why so many turned out. Putting it baldly, that’s exactly what it was. So, I’m not too worried that Trump had a smaller crowd. The underdog usually does. https://www.rawstory.com/2018/01/trump-made-rare-admission-regret-ordering-spicer-defend-inauguration-crowd-size-fox-news-reporter/.
Walter Polasik
4. Boasting of groping women: Trump, Mr. Rich Guy, plenty of money, plenty of babes. When he ran with the Liberals no one said a word about him. Whatever he did was fine. That’s the way the “upper crust” lives. Just accept it. Then he switched to a Conservative platform. And, as a lot of rich boys, he acted the playboy. But, we couldn’t have THAT from a Republican ticket. First we shall roast Roy Moore. Then latch on to Trump’s unguarded comments (because in politics, nothing is private, we guess) but while we’re in such a frenzy about pointing out foibles, (especially of semi-moralistic political figures) . . . what happened to Wonder Boy Willie? Why did HE get a free pass during HIS administration? As I recall, the Democrats were all up in arms when Ken Starr and his committee were investigating Slick Willy. After all he was “the first black president” . . .or so the popular saying went in the ’90’s. Oh, and this is from the NY Times even, how handy. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/us/politics/bill-clinton-sexual-misconduct-debate.html.
Walter Polasik
4. Boasting of groping women: Trump, Mr. Rich Guy, plenty of money, plenty of babes. When he ran with the Liberals no one said a word about him. Whatever he did was fine. That’s the way the “upper crust” lives. Just accept it. Then he switched to a Conservative platform. And, as a lot of rich boys, he acted the playboy. But, we couldn’t have THAT from a Republican ticket. First we shall roast Roy Moore. Then latch on to Trump’s unguarded comments (because in politics, nothing is private, we guess) but while we’re in such a frenzy about pointing out foibles, (especially of semi-moralistic political figures) . . . what happened to Wonder Boy Willie? Why did HE get a free pass during HIS administration? As I recall, the Democrats were all up in arms when Ken Starr and his committee were investigating Slick Willy. After all he was “the first black president” . . .or so the popular saying went in the ’90’s. Oh, and this is from the NY Times even, how handy. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/us/politics/bill-clinton-sexual-misconduct-debate.html.
Walter Polasik
So, in conclusion, I say if you’re going to lambaste Trump: 1. Do it for LEGITIMATE grievances. (And the sexual misconduct one IS legitimate) 2. If you’re going to accuse him of LYING make sure it’s about matters like NATIONAL SECURITY and not CROWD SIZES for crying out loud. 3. Or if you’re going to talk about the RNC or Trump’s personal circle engaging in whatever voter fraud, make sure the DNC isn’t also doing the same thing. Otherwise, what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. But I believe I said that in my last post as well. Cheers.
Kevin Wayne
“When he ran with the Liberals no one said a word about him”
Because he wasn’t running for office at the time. Note how several leading lights among the Democrats have fallen recently due to allegations of misconduct. Point refuted.
Kevin Wayne
Blah, blah blah, Illegal voting. Tell your Repub buddies to stop gerrymandering minorities out of their districts, then [yes, both sides are guilty on this one.]
Kevin Wayne
Just for the record: Foval is a Clinton operative. Everyone knows the Clintons are not true progressives. That’s why there was a walkout at the DNC convention 2 years ago.
Walter Polasik
Kevin Wayne: Tell your Democrat buddies to finally stop calling African-Americans “minorities”. They’re NOT anymore. At this rate, I’M a minority. WHITES are. And Dems have done a lot more “gerrymandering” than Republicans ever did. This is also why Democrats are so keen on flooding the country with non-white immigrants. They’ll then paint the Republican Party as a bunch of racist whites and use all their barely-English-literate amnestied “citizens” to vote against the color line. This is so pitiful and below the belt as to be sickening. A masterful play of the “race card”. They’ve been doing this for years.
Kevin Wayne
“Tell your Democrat buddies to finally stop calling African-Americans “minorities”. They’re NOT anymore. At this rate, I’M a minority. WHITES are”
Awww… Do you need a hug? 😉
“Dems have done a lot more “gerrymandering” than Republicans ever did”
Nope: http://www.businessinsider.com/partisan-gerrymandering-has-benefited-republicans-more-than-democrats-2017-6
“This is also why Democrats are so keen on flooding the country with non-white immigrants”
Excuse me? Bush Jr. had a LOT of Hispanics turning GOP because he wanted a fair deal for illegals. The Koch brothers who regularly donate to conservative candidates want open borders. Read Breitbart if your sooooo incensed with “correct” sources. And keep your ill-informed stereotypes to yourself.
Kevin Wayne
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2017/04/16/time-mag-koch-brothers-helping-illegal-immigrants-get-drivers-licenses
Varnel Watson
So Walter Polasik are you saying John the Baptist should have not called a very religious king who rebuilt the temple to repent from his sins?
Gary Stacey
It is offensive to use this board for personal political points. Did you do the same for the previous administration?
Walter Polasik
Gary Stacey, it’s just discussion. Everyone is entitled to his or her own political views. And I’d rather discuss heated politics or heated theology with informed believers than with uninformed. So by all means Gary, do join the table. Troy Day: No, John the Baptist was right in what he did and it is also the same kind of point the petitioners made that is also one of the two points I actually agree with in their open letter. I’m glad, at least, that pastor and churches are PRAYING for this president and not calling for his DEATH like a certain Steven Anderson of Faithful Word Baptist Church did of Obama. THAT was truly a poor Christian witness.
Gary Stacey
It is an inappropriate discussion. It is also quite un-Biblical, if that matters.
Chad Steele
What a joke!
Walter Polasik
I missed it, do explain, don’t leave us hangin’.
Chad Steele
The article about him being racist, sexist, etc. I do not see it. The man is not perfect. Who is? Unless these men of God are? Enjoyed your response.
Ricky Grimsley
The people that composed that statement must only watch CNN. Im not a big trump fan but this letter is idiocy.
Robin Wilson Taylor
The church needs to repent. Some of these preachers calling for our President to repent need to get down with him. When you point a finger at someone else, there’s four pointing back at you.
Varnel Watson
Gary Stacey It was posted by a member of the group who composed/signed the letter. The letter is signed by 39 leading Pentecostal theologians – it is not to be easily disregarded. We’ve discussed much about Obama too (double the number of posts just about same sex marriage law in 2016), if you havent seen it here http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/?s=obama
Sabrina Morgan
I am native america and I most certainly do NOT receive any monies from Casions and/or goverment. My daughter is also a college student and since our tribe is not federally recognized, I pay 100% of her tuition. Since you talk like you know all this as facts, thought I would give you a first hand account ?
Scotty Searan
Do you feel that we Americans owe the Native Americans, who are not native to this continent, but came also into America across from the east at the Bering Strait between Russia and Alaska reparations?
Sabrina Morgan
I never said anyone owes me or my family anything. The Bering Strait theroy is been proven false over and over. We “Americans”, more like we “colonizers”. I am American.
Scotty Searan
Sabrina Morgan Thank you for your reply, but I guess how the Native Americans got here nobody knows, that is like the global warming theory. Debatable. I just asked a question and you did not insinuate that.
I have a friend who is part of the Creek Indian tribe and who is very knowledgeable about Indian affairs. I mean nothing disrespectful by the the term Indians. My wife has some Indian blood in her also.
It is the way of the world the strong will survive. There has always been wars. That was just one of the things in settling land. Even Indians fought and stole between themselves.
I do not believe or teach that all who came across on the Mayflower and other ships were true Disciples of Jesus. True Disciples of Jesus has never never been a majority in any country. Was the Indians done wrong by Christians, probably so.
But our ancestors for the most part were not Christians. They may have good morals and been good people, but that doesn’t make you a Christian. Reading a Bible and Praying won’t make you a Christian. You have to live what you READ in the HOLY BIBLE.
This country was founded on Judeo/Christian ethics but that doesn’t make it a Christian country. It just makes us a free country.
Walter Polasik
Sabrina Morgan: That would be ME you were responding to. So, tell me Sabrina, you yourself aren’t getting rich or getting dole-outs. You pay your fair share like everyone else. Kudos to you, and yes, you are an American. Now, having said that, can you speak for OTHER native American groups that ARE getting money to their reservations or thick in business making money at casinos? Because guessy whaty? They’re out there. http://www.nber.org/digest/feb03/w9198.html.
Walter Polasik
Sabrina Morgan: I’m not making this up. When I say “dole-outs’ I really do mean it. See, they get paid money because the government allegedly mismanaged something. Here in Philadephia, if the pavement in front of my house cracks (it’s public pavement, not really part of my property) guess who has to pay for it? Me. If a water-main breaks near my house, anywhere in the vicinity of my property. . .again, I have to pay for it. I get no dole-outs for city ooopsies. So, I’m not just reading tea-leaves in my cup and conjuring issues with Native Americans. But the moral of the story is, again, every group other than regular white folks get breaks, helps and all kinds of attention. I will stand by that because I’ve grown up through the 80’s and 90’s and watched it grow more and more plain. From Affirmative Action to Casino Transaction. Good day to you. 😉
Walter Polasik
Post: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/09/27/495627997/u-s-government-to-pay-492-million-to-17-american-indian-tribes.
Joseph D. Absher
So glad I stayed out of this one. I think there has to be a middle voice somewhere. I admit I don’t have it.
But tonight I’m rejoicing in Christ my Saviour, reading my Bible, and praying, and thanking God for this country. And all the voices. I hope we never loose that.
Joseph D. Absher
That didn’t last
Scotty Searan
Walter Polasik: You have done a good job critiquing this article. In there first point there was actually 2 subpoints.
The Treatment of the immigrants
The Racially charged statement of racism concerning black people and murders.
Let’s talk about #1 THE TREATMENT OF THE STRANGERS (IMMIGRANTS)
Leviticus 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
Leviticus 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
Leviticus 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I am the Lord your God.
Numbers 9:14 And if a stranger shall sojourn among you, and will keep the passover unto the Lord; according to the ordinance of the passover, and according to the manner thereof, so shall he do: ye shall have one ordinance, both for the stranger, and for him that was born in the land.
Romans 13:1-7
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God’s ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Much scripture let’s talk.
Walter Polasik
“If a Christian promotes amnesty, let them remove the fences from around their property and allow the homeless and all strangers access to their property to live.” I couldn’t have said it better myself. Thank you for clarification nd simplicity. Yes. It’s not that we are against any particular people group: but the flood-tide of immigrants (illegal AND legal) has GOT TO STOP. No country can support indefinite immigration. It’s a recipe for. . . the DISSOLUTION of said country. . .oddly enough that’s EXACTLY what the Globalists want.
Kevin Wayne
“If a Christian promotes amnesty, let them remove the fences from around their property and allow the homeless and all strangers access to their property to live”
Lots of Christians have. I used to serve in a church that did exactly that.
Leonard Harris
Gods word also says take care of your own first. Trump continues to say America first. Holy Ghost filled person right here !
Scotty Searan
Leonard Harris Here is what the Bible really says.
Galatians 6:10 As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men, especially unto them who are of the household of faith.
We do good to all men,ESPECIALLY THOSE OF THE HOUSEHOLD OF FAITH. Disciples of Christ/Christians of any race.
Leonard Harris
Scotty Searan just like people who believe once saved always saved. They go with one verse n believe they are right. I’m not gonna argue over this. That verse is good but it is not the only one that goes with this situation. I don’t believe God wants u or anybody else to beat Trump over the head with the Bible. God placed him there n he’s getting better all the time. He holds Bible study in the W.H. When’s the last time has that happened? We also have laws read what it says about that . P.S. you have forgotten the millions of dollars our Country has given other countries for years. How come this wasn’t brought up on the last presidents ?
Scotty Searan
Leonard Harris I gave you scripture and very little rhetoric.
You gave no scripture and a lot of rhetoric. Give me scripture when you criticize.
Walter Polasik
Scotty Searan Wait, wait. . .so protecting our nation, borders, economy is. . .not ok? We just let ’em all in? And what about Trump’s interesting point about those who are productive vs. those who are leeches? Do we let all leeches in and then wonder why our economy is going to crap because government is doling out our hard-earned tax-dollars to loafers?
David Vaters
My grandfather founded the Pentecostal assembles of Newfoundland and he would be ashamed of this communication supposedly represent Pentecostals. Shameful! Where were these guys in the previous administrations? Stop representing the faith like this! Reminds me of the Pharisees!
Scotty Searan
They were afraid if they mentioned Obama’s sinful nature and his racist ways, the blacks would leave their churches and they were more interested in numbers than the truth
THIS IS JUST ANOTHER CASE OF THE SEDUCING SPIRITS IN OUR CHURCHES.
Varnel Watson
David Vaters Would your grandfather approve of a man with 3 wives, gambling business, heart of anger, lust, greed and the whole 7 deadly sins?
David Vaters
Troy Day firstly
“For ALL have sinned and come short of the glory of God”
Secondly,
Are you now God to Judge anyone?
Thirdly, where were you and these men of God in the past 10 presidents? All of which you could say the same and worst of them!
What is being said and done here is a total offence to God.
Repent and pray for the leader of the country just as the bible says to do! Blessings!
Varnel Watson
David Vaters I simply disagree to be a blind follower of a spiritually blind leader
David Vaters
Troy Day do as you wish brother! Just curious? If not Trump who would you have had in th WH? Hillary or Bennie?
David Vaters
Troy Day could you kindly answer the above question?
Varnel Watson
As soon as you answer mine: “Would your grandfather approve of a man with 3 wives, gambling business, heart of anger, lust, greed and the whole 7 deadly sins?” which BTW answers yours as well
David Vaters
Troy Day I answered it in my first response! But to be clear no he would not approve of these things nor of mine or your transgressions… now your answer please!
David Vaters
Troy Day will do!
Walter Polasik
Troy Day: You asked David Vaters’ forebears would approve of the characteristics you described. Hmmm, on reflection, minus the gambling, that kinda sounds like . . .King David! (“A man after God’s own heart”) I dunno. If we approve of David (you can’t “undo” what he did) then Trump’s a boy scout by comparison! I hear your call for leadership accountability and I agree, of course. I didn’t like Clinton’s escapades any better either (poor Chelsea). But if we’re gonna compare apples to apples . . .?
Varnel Watson
David Vaters Would your grandfather approve of a man with 3 wives, gambling business, heart of anger, lust, greed and the whole 7 deadly sins?
Varnel Watson
Here’s the same problem over and over again – a dilemma the Church should have never been placed in per the separation of church and state
We have
– several leaders of Pentecostal denominations
– a dozen of pastors representing large congregations
– some 50 Pentecostal theologians, ministers and authors
respectfully expressing disagreement and protest against oppressive policies and open sin with the current administration.
Should we not listen to the voice of the Spirit speaking to the Church through these people?
Or should we trust a small number of golden age posters who are expressing fear of losing their social security and to what cost?
David Vaters
As a factual and historical note…separation of church and state was to prevent one religion to dominate the government. They did not mean that the church was not to freely influence the government and its policies and just be silent. Check out the original intent of this not what has been feed to us
By the liberals and Marxists.
Walter Polasik
Troy Day: Let me flatly state it: they were NOT expressing “the voice of the Spirit”. Most of the points were Left-wing political folderdol. How is not being mindful about national security (with regards to North Korea) “of the Spirit”? Their take on “love your enemies” is just as misleading as the usual Liberal whine about “Don’t judge” (Matt. 7:1). Terrible. It was just terrible and a thinking person can see right through the snivels. (Yes, I said it again).
Kevin Wayne
“How is not being mindful about national security (with regards to North Korea) “of the Spirit”?”
Simple. We are to strive to the best of our abilities to live at peace with everyone. Romans 12:8 A couple of things in regards to NK: 1) After what happened to Libya following their disarmament of nukes and their subsequent US invasion, North Korea is not up for any talk of them giving up nukes, either. 2) They see the US as who developed the 1st Atom bomb & they saw what happened to Japan.
You’re problem appears to be that you come from a perspective that war is inevitable.
Varnel Watson
Kevin Wayne thanks for your early reply – looks like your Sunday service notes 🙂 I know you were addressing Walter Polasik but I am too about 80% sure there will be war. Like Clinton and Nixon and Bush Trump too needs a war to survive in the next 3 yrs;
Your point on Libya is not alone. The Arabian spring left open a dozen of countries.
However, I do think Russia and China are in cohutz to leave N Korea alone and bring the war in Syria. Turkey has just started assisting them as Ricky Grimsley had supposed
And of course this is all fulfilling Ezek. 37-38 war prophecy Would the stable genius in the White House and his evangelical advisers understand these dynamics on time would determine if America will be in a war before 2020 – I give them a very conservative 80-20 chance [my 2 cents ]
Joseph D. Absher
If you’re shocked by any of this you must be under forty.
We all knew his only hope was the Christian right as a base. He’s got flaws and if some of the gossip is true it’s sin but from what I can tell he’s helped us. He actually might be better label an old school democrat.
Also may I remind you the repeal of the Johnson Act was huge. If the preachers can find their courage and their voices now we may yet see another awakening in this country. I wouldn’t get to upset with any of this. Keep praying and doing what God called you to do. Please…
Ray E Horton
As with every President, we elected him to be a government executive, not a religious leaders. We have a commander-in-chief, not a pastor-in-chief. Every President has had his weaknesses. Trump is just more open and blunt. His policies so far have been bringing positive change to the economy. He isn’t against legal, controlled immigration that assimilates, but illegal immigration. Nothing has worked with our North Korea policy over the years. Maybe it is indeed time to get tougher. Anyway, I am going to judge his presidency according to results, at the voting both after four years. Meanwhile, we are called to pray, in spite of his faults. May God use him for our nation. God has no faultless man to use until Jesus returns.
Leonard Harris
Very well said. Paul was a Christian killer look how God used him. Remember the Pharisees how they did things . Does this ring a bell?
Kevin Wayne
” His policies so far have been bringing positive change to the economy”
I think if you look at the overall trends, you’ll find Trump is just enjoying what was set in motion before he took office. Most any POTUS deals with the 1st year syndrome – with a lot of his predecessor’s stuff coming home to roost for good or for bad: https://slate.com/business/2018/01/donald-trump-takes-credit-for-eight-years-of-declining-black-unemployment.html
Benjamin C Bratvogel
This is very thoughtful….how ever the Bible teaches us to be obedient to our learders, even if you dislike them..we are to pray for our enemies also.
On a final note the whole Jerusalem belongs to the hebrews is a great step and leap towards, and needs to be for the end days.
Kennedy is the only other President i can thing of that was religious.
Mostly the rest belong to the Masons, skull and bones, and what ever is associated with bohemium grove…just a thought
Joseph D. Absher
Kennedy was a notorious adulterer. The press and the secret service covered for him. But the days of people turning a blind eye are over forever.
Benjamin C Bratvogel
David was also and a murderer yet he was a man after Gods heart.
Moses killed a man.
Peter denied Jesus
Mary magdalen was a whore
Elijah siced two bears on 40+ boys for disrespecting him. There are many examples.No leaders are perfect.
Joseph D. Absher
Yes sir. Very true. Moses looked both ways and then killed a man. Sounds like premeditated murder to me. God can change the vilest of men. Hes good that way. Very kind.
I hope you don’t think I was singling out the former president. I meant the public scrutiny is very open these days. Fame is a fickle friend. Clinton used to be the hero of the left. They finally turned on him. Same old story abuse of power. Sex. Money.
David covered his sin up, for awhile. Moses ran away so did Peter. Elijah what can say about him. I don’t think them boys were disrespecting old people anymore. Might be a lesson in that one…
Walter Polasik
Yes, Kennedy was certainly religious sporting in bed with Marilyn Monroe. He even coined a new “Monroe Doctrine” : “After you’re done with her, pass her to your brother.” Alas, this all truly happened. Clinton went to church as well. And then there was Monica. . . .I could go on. . . 😉
Varnel Watson
The Clintons carried in the White House not one but too Bible that belonged to his baptist grandmother. Many if not most Bible believing presidents were openly masons http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/masonic-bibles-and-oaths-in-the-inauguration-of-united-states-presidents/
Varnel Watson
Benjamin C Bratvogel The question you posted as dealt with in detail by Walter Polasik is this (pure moral not political)
There’s no doubt we are to obey our leaders, but which ones?
Our electoral college elected (not by majority) country leader
OR
our denominational, spiritual, theological and church leaders?
This is the question you may want to try to answer for us…
Walter Polasik
Troy Day: I’ll throw another boomerang for ya. You asked, “Which leaders are we to obey?” I ask, “In which sphere?” Do our spiritual leaders have authority in governmental areas? Just as, do our national leaders have authority in spiritual areas? And, to further complicate the question, we’re Christians. Benny Hinn is a nationally recognized Christian leader. Should we obey HIM in spiritual matters? How about Joel Osteen? Or John Hagee? No? John McArthur? Nationally recognized. What do you think? How exactly, brother Day, do you intend this to work? 😉
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Not going to obey John MacArthur he’s written three anti Pentecostal books. So no way Jose!!!
I do not consider him a spokesman for the Pentecostals or charismatic churches and he is a cessationist and a calvinist.
Varnel Watson
Walter Polasik Since you are asking the tribulationibus torret I will leave for you to figure out; but the situation is not easily separable like you propose, because we have spiritual leaders speaking to political problems (morals in the government, elections, political preferences, etc.) and political leaders speaking to church issues (tax, bathrooms, gender, marriage, etc )
So lets call on the Bible on this one
Did the OT prophets separate or did they call kings for repentance?
What did Nathan do to David?
What did John the Baptist do to a very religious and stable genius king who had even rebuilt the temple?
And what did the king do to him in return?
Omne gestum identidem geritur
Walter Polasik
Troy Day: And I would ask you. Do these pastors/petitioners measure up to be on the level of prophets of the land? Especially asking for the kinds of things mentioned in the letter? Again, it looks to me less a moral reproving (alla Nathan, John the Baptist, et. al.) and more a political plea cloaked in the garb of spirituality. (Did I just repeat my point a THIRD time? Yes, I did. so hopefully by now you get it). Such spiritual leaders shouldn’t make their requests a falsis principiis proficisci.
Varnel Watson
Now that’s a question you should ask them personally
Walter Polasik
Oh, and to your Latin: there should be the caveat: ad libitum, ad neauseam ad infinitum. 😉
Varnel Watson
more properly spelled: nauseam
Ray E Horton
Aside from Old Testament prophets, let’s look at the New Testament. Jesus corrected religious leaders, but did He, or Paul or other contributors to the N.T. correct the governing authorities.
Varnel Watson
King of kings – no government correction there whatsoever 🙂
Ray E Horton
Of course, in the New Covenant, we are the kings and priests that He is King over. Worldly kings and government leaders we are to pray for precisely because He isn’t controlling worldly affairs in this age, and we seek God’s intervention on their behalf, that we might have good secular government with an environment conducive to the spread of the Gospel.
Walter Polasik
Ray E. Horton: Brother Horton, spoken like a true wise elder. I tip my hat to you. Brother Day of course wants to emphasize the Church’s involvement in the life of our nation and wants leaders to be accountable and hear the Church’s invitation that all, small and great, live for Jesus. I applaud that of course and commend Troy for usually posting good topics. I’m glad Christians are writing Trump and that he’s also being reminded of his moral obligations as the nation’s leader, but the contents of the above letter are, at best, a mixed bag. I personally wish that if Christian leaders must “speak to power” they would have some wisdom concerning the pressing and relevant political issues of the day. Pleading for items that the Left wants accomplished hardly seems to me any kind of “swimming against the current” or “going against the grain” of worldly convenience, complicity and deceptive politics. Whatever happened to “just weights and measures”? Troy Day? (Deut. 25:15; Prov. 11:1; 16:11; 20:23).
Ray E Horton
Thanks brother Walter, and I do understand Troy’s very positive motives. We do need to call people, ordinary or in high places, to the ways of the Lord. But, I do agree with you concerning the content of the letter.
Leonard Harris
Troy also brought up Trump didn’t get the majority of the votes. Electoral college was there from the beginning. Law Of The Land . Our Founding Fathers knew that they were doing. What Troy brought up is the same as what the democrats n liberals have n still scream .
Ray E Horton
That’s true! Whether by Electoral College, direct vote, royal succession, or even overpowering dictatorship, we are told to respect the secular government. They didn’t exactly have good government when Paul was writing his letters. And, I agree, this letter to the President is definately politically left leaning, guised in spirituality. Walter handled the points of the letter quite well.
Varnel Watson
Fact check Ray https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/27072468_1577082725716436_2458416268265692761_n.jpg?oh=52bd2cbd8028dd4f84c0c1cbfe5cfc86&oe=5AE2C8FB
Walter Polasik
Troy Day: If you work in retail as I have, you ‘ll know that citing Macy’s and Sears’ poor business has nothing to do with Trump or the TaxPlan. Those cited companies were all on the chopping block even in Obama’s time. They are ready for extinction. I worked for Sears for almost a decade, I should know ITS internal politics. (!) So the “fact check” is irrelevant.
Benjamin C Bratvogel
Very irrelevant…now a days “men” are tending to lean toward quite effeminate, and i would beg to differ, if most of them even know-the differance between a spark plug wrench and a oil filter wrench , let alone there function and how to use.
Have you seen that millennial fight with that manual can opener for 3 minutes and than every one claps like she just saved a baby deer from a fire. Satan has them very confused in deed, gender fluid huh, eating a tide pod because it is attractive looking, is not an excuse. Bright colors usually mean poison so…they just want that dopeamine rush from 10000 strangers likeing them acting like a donkey.
The internet is shifting the retail game folks and wal mart is where to get the rest…
Varnel Watson
wrong thread? Benjamin C Bratvogel
Benjamin C Bratvogel
Nope just putting 2 cents right here ☝ but thanks.
If i was to comment it would be from Eph 6…wrestling against darkness and spiritual forces in high places….there is a reason Satan is prince of the air and ruler of this earthly realm.
Yet another trick…people think he is stuck and ruling hell.
Ray E Horton
This was the best retail year in history, but not for many brick and mortar stores. Online shopping is hurting them even during a good economy. consumer confidence has grown, and the stock market has been going through the roof.
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Never heard of these scholars!
Varnel Watson
Jerome you’ve never heard of Keener and Amos? Are you Pentecostal ?
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
I am familiar with French Arlington of the C.O.G. Cleveland,Tn., George O. Woods of the A/G, and Jack W. Hayford of the Foursquare Gospel. Yes a Arminian, a Trinitarian, a Pentecostal and a Pastor, too.
Varnel Watson
Jerome great scholars of the late 70s early 80s. Pentecostal theology in 21st century has many more new names. Most of them have signed the petition with great confidence
Walter Polasik
Then they haven’t read it! Are you telling me they’re THAT Leftist? (!!!!)
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Well we don’t have a pastor in the White House nor a crooked politican, but a business man. Who is very rough around the edges…But I’m grateful for him and glad as all heaven is that Hellerie not president.
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Don’t know how you could be a Pentecostal and a leftist, gay loving baby killing Democrat!!!
Varnel Watson
Jerome you are right. You cannot.
The Problem is you also cannot be a Pentecostal AND at the same time
support a man of sin with 3 wives
stand against loving the foreigner
approve dozens of lies from the top of the government
agree with open abuse of women and minorities
defend administration that projects regress on tax, immigration, free speech, democracy, foreign policy, a Wall, economy, NAFTA, and so on
What Christian conservatives voted for in this election was
reversal of 2016 supreme court ruling gay marriages
501c3 church tax reliefs
ban on abortions
no gun control
guarantee for their social security (golden agers only, millenials well know by the time they are 60 there aint gonna be no social security)
morals in the White House and government
This is the basis on which the deal was made for the republican nomination
Guess how many of these we got after 1 year?
Guess how many we will get after 3 more years?
So now, we cannot be leftist, but can we support what’s going on as Christians? This is what this letter speaks to openly
Joseph D. Absher
Children will cry for time with their fathers. Men will vow to do right by their family. But when it comes to politics Every man must have his say.
Is there a report “little Suzy got saved!” Little Johnny came home. Daddy got right with God. Mommy said “God is faithful. God will provide.”
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
The only think I can say is Thank God! I’m extremely happy with President Trump. I will admit that I can never be happy with the leftist party in power.
Varnel Watson
Jerome if you are happy with the man of sin in the White House so be it; but we did elect a President who made various promises related to our freedom, economy and way of life. How do we cognate them with what is actually happening in our present reality ?
Ray E Horton
Troy, I’m sorry to say that I find your comment rather silly! Any man in the White House would be a man of sin. We have never had a President that wasn’t. Trump is just more blunt and some would say honest. His past faults are behind him, and I believe he is improving. And, he is gradually learning while in office as well. And, “what is actually happening in our present reality” is quite a bit of success and accomplishment, especially in the area of the economy.
Varnel Watson
Ray E We have a special thread on the Christian response to the tax reform if you’d like to discuss economy? Which area would you call a success – rising gas prices, closing retail, delay in tax returns? Please elaborate in on the specifics that you have noticed. Have you seen any increase in your paycheck in the last year? – most Americans have seen decrease and BTW the property values are declining rapidly since mid- October Economy may be good for the large corporations but certainly not for the middle class. Sorry but Sears and Sams closing dozens of stores is not silly at all. No American should thing the return of NAFTA is silly either https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/27072468_1577082725716436_2458416268265692761_n.jpg?oh=52bd2cbd8028dd4f84c0c1cbfe5cfc86&oe=5AE2C8FB
Ray E Horton
Irrelevant! These would have closed under any administration because of Internet competition like Amazon. Retail is acturally way up when you add store and online buying, and consumer confidence is up as well.
Walter Polasik
Troy Day: Let’s face it, you’re just a plain ol’ “never Trumper”. You don’t like him and you’re quashing anything he stands for and adding more fuel to the gleeful Leftist fire. None of us here are saying Trump’s a saint. We all remember growing up hearing his “rich boy” antics. He’s got the money he wants and the women he wants. Let’s pause there for a second. Dinesh D’Souza, high-profile Christian apologist and representative (in debates with atheists etc.). He’s got himself some good money and guess what? Recently divorced his wife and married a younger chick. Obviously he is no longer so high profile after that move. You mention Trump’s having gotten married 3 times. Hows about King David’s 7 wives? Hmmm? “The man after God’s own heart?” Samuel’s dad had TWO. Now, you mention economic issues. I’ll say it again: retail has always been sucky, especially Sears where I’d worked for 7 years. As to rising gas prices—Troy, you’re an adult without amnesia I trust, you know the oil companies do this every now and again: use whatever excuse to hike their prices and make a killing. The only thing I WOULD agree with you on is the danger of NAFTA and GATT which were instituted under Mr. Globalist Clinton and the whole concept of “free trade” being traceable to Marxist roots. But this kind of stuff was in place before Trump came into office. I’m not concerned that Trump isn’t giving a commentary on Romans in his presidential addresses. My concern is that, in the end, after all the hubbub and shouting is over, Trump will be another George H.W.Bush. Plastic smile, tough talk, quiet Globalist agenda. If that turns out to be the case, we have no democracy worth a mention in Webster’s dictionary. At that point, the only hope for freedom from “the overlords” who rule from unelected, secretive positions, is a miracle from God. I for the revival God alone can bring to this country.
Varnel Watson
Actually I like Trump and asked him to run for presidency back in 2009 when most of the golden agers in this group that now defend him tought him to be a crook. But I love the Church and God more. And more and more I see Trump does not share my allegence Nelson Banuchi
Walter Polasik
Troy Day: Gee, I wonder who DOES?Goldilocks!
Varnel Watson
NAFTA does – nough said – or eNAFTA said
Kevin Wayne
“The only thing I WOULD agree with you on is the danger of NAFTA and GATT which were instituted under Mr. Globalist Clinton”
With the help of Globalist Republicans. And a Republican successor who did nothing to roll it back.
“and the whole concept of “free trade” being traceable to Marxist roots”
LOL You spelled “LIbertarian” wrong 😉
Kevin Wayne
http://fortune.com/2017/07/20/donald-trump-economy-stock-market-jobs-reports-credit
Kevin Wayne
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2017/01/december-jobs-report/512366
Kevin Wayne
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/politics/wp/2017/09/01/trumps-job-numbers-trail-obamas-in-2016-and-for-that-he-can-blame-himself/?utm_term=.12a2b5ab0f05
Kevin Wayne
http://time.com/money/4636761/jobs-barack-obama-presidency
Kevin Wayne
Jobs added 2016: 2.2 Million
Jobs added in 2017: 2.1 Million
https://www.bls.gov/web/empsit/ceshighlights.pdf
Kevin Wayne
And now for my disclaimer: I haven’t voted for the POTUS nominee of either major party since 1988. So anyone who has allegations to make that I have a stake in this – keep it to yourself 😉
Walter Polasik
Kevin Wayne: Maybe you didn’t catch this but I did name Georgie and son as Globalists, just like Clinton. And as far as Liberalism goes, even Reagan signed into law a bill enabling gays when he was governor of California. As to stopping and rolling back, we’ll see what Trump actually stops. I doubt he’ll be able to “roll back” Row v, Wade or Gay marriage. You’ll notice that Obama easily disposed of DOMA. It’s a one-way ticket bro.
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day “I love the Church and God…Trump does not share my allegence”
Apparently, he never did.
Santa Nichols
Praise the Lord God Almighty ?✝??❤
Varnel Watson
Kevin Wayne Walter Polasik yalls points are well taken. I will make further comments under the NAFTA topic BUT who will pay for NAFTA and drained Social Security – not Mexico but our children Those jobs sited are not created for Americans. Neither will be the NAFTA drivers and border patrol jobs … I cite nearby VW factory that was given absolutely TAX FREE bill to build by the state. Created 0 jobs for locals – mainly imported specialists work in it today
Michelle
So in the midst of all the debate, it stood out to me that the points in this article are primarily political and not theological. The truth is, there are Pentecostals who are politically conservative, and Pentecostals who are politically liberal. I feel the article would have been more honest if it were entitled, “A Call for Trump to return to the Democratic Party.” But asking someone to “repent” for political views is a little Stalinistic.
Joseph Kidwell
I have been very busy, but I will address it. I know that everyone just can’t wait to hear from me….
Joseph D. Absher
Do you preach repentance in your own church? Do you tell men to get right with God in your own church? Do you preach against and adultery in your church? Do you openly rebuke the evil in men’s hearts? The men you know personally?
Joseph D. Absher
Correction: “do you preach against sin and adultery in your own church?”
Joseph Kidwell
You can find our statement of faith in the fb page of Greater Grace and Deliverance Ministries. You can also find sermon clips if you search for Bishop Joseph Kidwell on you tube. Have a blessed day.
Joseph D. Absher
A simple yes or no is fine thank you
Joseph Kidwell
I’m not on trial here, sir. You are not my God or my Bishop and I do not answer to you.
Joseph Kidwell
I will first address the first point of this letter to the President. From his defense of the KKK and neo-nazis in Charlottesville to his depiction of nations of color as S&$@holes to his racist depiction of Mexican immigrants as ” rapists and drug dealers”, this President has blatantly displayed a racist attitude, thus the call for him to repent.
Joseph Kidwell
The second point on the letter deals with the reckless talk coming from the President toward North Korea. The fact is, war is not an option on the Korean Penninsula. Nuclear weapons are not toys and the President’s language has brought us closer to nuclear war than at any other time since the Cuban misspile crisis.
Ira Huth
Joseph Kidwell We all will be on trial when one day we go before Christ and give account of our life. We pray my Brother that you will repent of your allegiance with liberal ideology, propaganda lies that promotes an agenda that contradicts the Word of God. Before it’s to late in Jesus name!!!
Joseph Kidwell
I would suggest that you stop viewing Scripture through a secular right wing political lens and employ methods of interpreting Scripture. You ignore vast swaths of Scripture and cherry pick passages.
Ira Huth
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Matthew 7:15-20 KJV
https://bible.com/bible/1/mat.7.15-20.KJV
Joseph Kidwell
Like I said, you cherry pick Scripture and make false applications.
Ira Huth
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2018349818454402&id=1742447562711297
Nelson Banuchi
First we had Obama threatening our democracy…now we have Trump…
https://www.facebook.com/nelson.banuchi/posts/1854329334586631?pnref=story
Scotty Searan
Nelson Banuchi I don’t trust nothing Huffington Post puts out or CNN, or MSNBC puts out. They are nothing but liberal propaganda networks and news papers
Joseph Kidwell
I don’t trust anything Fox News puts out.
Varnel Watson
At least since they got rid of Megan…
Scotty Searan
I like Newsmax, but all are bias, but I have never read an article in Huffington post that gives the political right good reviews. I do trust Sean Hannity and Michael Savage
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Joseph Kidwell
I only trust news that I hear from Fox News and CBN News. All the rest all controled by the demoncrats
Joseph Kidwell
LOL! Fox is controlled by extreme right wing zealots.
Varnel Watson
Fox is controlled by Rupert Murdoch while still living
Scotty Searan
CNN, MSNBC, CBS, NBC and ABC LEFT WING LIBERAL fake need reporters
David Vaters
He has! Maybe you should think about where the 4 other fingers on your hand are pointing ….
Varnel Watson
David Vaters Would your grandfather consider him a saved man?
David Vaters
Troy Day My grandfather would not judge any man if he was saved or not.
This really is ridiculous. So your point your trying to PROVE is President Trump is not a Christian? If so, so what? And you believe that vast majorly of presidents were Christian?
Even if that were true that all Presidents including Obama is Christian, so what?
Pray that President Trump becomes born again!
Not rip him up or anyone else for that matter!
President Trump without a doubt has been the most supportive of the Christian faith, by word and deed, then any other recent history President. If you disagree with that I’m can’t contribute anything more to this brotherly discussion.
David Vaters
How do you he already has repented?
Varnel Watson
David Vaters Not trying to prove anything I simply asked if your grandfather would consider him a saved man? I know mine wouldnt
Joseph D. Absher
I stayed out politics the last couple of years for this very reason. Frankly it is disturbing to see brethren so divided on worldly affairs. I suppose I’m guilty also being drawn into it.
For me the gospel of Jesus Christ must go forth. We won’t get the violence out of the streets until we get the violence out of our hearts.
To the issue of the “rebuke” sure it’s scriptural but I think it lacks real conviction and fire. And seems more cold and calculated than prophetic “speaking truth to power.” I don’t think they heard from God in prayer for the man or the office. Sure sounds good though.
Joseph D. Absher
I don’t doubt the writers have served their people and their conscience. In the end that will be important. They have stayed within the confines of scripture. I think the day is coming when the cry for repentance will be unavoidable. And some of the ones advocating for it now will be ushering it out the door.
Walter Polasik
AMEN AND AMEN! (Deut. 32:31).
Joseph Kidwell
Trump is really a great example for those who value ‘faith and family’. When it comes to being a role model as a husband and father, President Obama is much preferred over our current ‘Philanderer in Chief’.
Varnel Watson
A final word to this discussion
It is commendable that members emerging with ideas from this group like Joseph Kidwell Micael Grenholm and several others among our members who are not as outspoken have signed this letter calling for repentance, righteousness and restoration
We all may not agree on all points. We dont have to. But as the Church we must agree that according to the Law of God, the prosperity of a nation begins with repentance, righteousness and restoration from the nation’s highest authority. No one, not even the emperor, is above the Law of God
With this in mind, our friend John could have shown respect, keep silent and enjoyed the king’s feast. After all the king was not a priest or a pastor, all kings have sins and John could have kept his pay check, tax exempt and even his head.
But our friend John knew that no one, not even the king, is above the Law of God. And for this reason exposed the the king openly with the words It is NOT lawful … and lost his head for it.
If you gonna lose your head, dont lose it taking sides in useless political discussions. Lose it for something of high worth – like the right of free speech; and speak freely calling both king and nation to repentance, righteousness and restoration
Ricky Grimsley
Did the sign any letters when we attacked Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen ,Libya Yemen, Qatar, or Syria and attempted to overthrow the governments. That letter is just another example of liberal bias that has infiltrated the church where moral outrage of personal failures fills Pharisees with rage while president after president propagates the slaughter of millions overseas. Did the sign a petition to stop Obama from dividing the country over race, or giving weapons to al-qaida. What about Clinton’s in Bosnia. Did they forget about abortion.? Just saying get informed and don’t be lackeys for the left.
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/david-franklin-a-call-to-righteousness/
Joseph D. Absher
You know as well as anyone the trivial nature of men is not suited to repentance. It will take more than a self vindication to bring repentance.
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/david-franklin-a-call-to-righteousness/
Ricky Grimsley
Here is what we should be doing instead of trying to be part of Trump’s opposition. 1 Timothy 2:1-3 KJVS
[1] I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; [2] For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Varnel Watson
If you gonna ba honest, you need to show where you posted this great advice while Obama was president
Ricky Grimsley
The Obama presidency opened my eyes. I was very partisan republican until I began to do real research a few years ago. Our government has been evil along time. I’m pretty sure over the years that things of this nature have been posted.
Walter Polasik
Ricky Grimsley If only Troy Day knew how to pray for presidents. . . .if only he realized you shouldn’t just be praying for DEMOCRAT presidents. 😉
Ricky Grimsley
Exactly. They have all done major evils and had huge moral failures. How many years has America had without war?
Joseph D. Absher
Has the topic been abandoned by the co-signer the Reverend Bishop Joseph Kidwell?
Scotty Searan
There is not a President or leaders in our country that I have not prayed for and will continue to pray for.
I set so many emails and letter to the WHITE HOUSE asking President Obama to repent, that I was blocked from sending any correspondence to the WHITE HOUSE BY EMAIL, LETTERS OR PHONE.
Our local Democratic Congressman will not accept my letters nor phone calls or emails, because I have called on them to repent. The Republicans will accept them. And yes I get on their case.
But the whole thing is this the Church and country needs to return to the standards that made us great. We Need to turn to God and do what is right.
Isaiah 58:12 And they that shall be of thee shall build the old waste places: thou shalt raise up the foundations of many generations; and thou shalt be called, The repairer of the breach, The restorer of paths to dwell in.
Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
Jude 1:3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
On another Blog, there was a gentlemen who was saying that we need to return to Holiness and righteous living of our forefathers which is definitely true.
He spoke how Satan had used a tactic to deceive us Holiness people and yes many have been deceived.
Our Holiness heritage definitely had the power of God from the 1800s till up into the 1970’s, I don’t believe no one can deny that.
From here on out you may disagree with me.
This minister spent more time about not returning to legalism and putting some of the practices down that was in legalism yet not naming one thing of how a person should live holy.
The fact is legalism didn’t make us lose our power with God..Worldliness and compromise made us lose our power. EVERYBODY IS DOING RIGHT IN THEIR OWN EYES
Deuteronomy 12:7-9 7 And there ye shall eat before the Lord your God, and ye shall rejoice in all that ye put your hand unto, ye and your households, wherein the Lord thy God hath blessed thee.8 Ye shall not do after all the things that we do here this day, every man whatsoever is right in his own eyes.9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the Lord your God giveth you.
Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 21:25 In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.
Nelson Banuchi
Scotty Searan: “I set so many emails and letter to the WHITE HOUSE asking President Obama to repent…”
How many emails and letters did you send to Trump asking him to repent?
Scotty Searan
None
Nelson Banuchi
Thought so…
Scotty Searan
A least I don’t throw rocks and hide my hand.
Nelson Banuchi
??
Ira Huth
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.charismanews.com%2Fpolitics%2Fopinion%2F69430-even-democrats-now-admit-just-how-condemning-this-memo-really-is&h=ATNoJRhsVs3FSC312xaVs-lDIPUQ3fjpcoBJ_WcbdPaUbI5YosH0ma7NU20IUMncGlTk3Vh15lOZzBiSNTSAySol3IP509sfkXEzuuDpxt3Ujq8xkQdIpcfAVgllUoi56D_uLIxETXGcwA&s=1&enc=AZNrKaK6luw05XNFXF3ozL35Ac5Rkvc6Pt66sJ5BKOuSaPv_zHz4j2O_mc8mGkPzsfc
Joseph Kidwell
Pure garbage. I stand with patriots like John McCain who attacked this memo. I stand with the FIB Director, Christopher Wray. I stand with former Chair of the House Intelligence Committee, Republican Mike Rogers who attacked it.
Joseph Kidwell
…..and yes, unlike 5 Deferment draft dodger Trump. I believe that John McCain is an American hero.
Ira Huth
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2045662569011216&id=2023309424579864
Ira Huth
https://stream.org/black-leaders-embarrass-sell-us-out/
Ira Huth
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10156161313808024&id=121411323023
Joseph Kidwell
LOL!
Ira Huth
Laugh all you want, but If the Lord tarries and the socialist liberal agenda continues to force their ideology into public policy in America. Lord help us, because there could be another Civil War defending traditional Constitutional freedoms.
This article has the backing of several COG ministers and (with all due respect whether Dr. Hill agrees or not) among several others in the faith.
This article brings out the sad reality of what has been happening in America till now. Enough is enough, if someone wants to live a sinful, unrighteous lifestyle that is between them and God. But don’t try to force into public policy, and don’t try to change the moral and just foundation and rule of law in America.
https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.frontpagemag.com%2Ffpm%2F266197%2Fcivil-war-here-daniel-greenfield&h=ATPI6yPRCaRjY7xF2L1p3LynSs-dxEV9_jiJkRf-TSoBA-UbSoZtjs3tBngfkuuZT8rJRCfRITDAnq64RED5QZcLVWLuC9X7c9i1YpO1akCmLnYmlrC8EpUxY0OYgmwDTRo&s=1&enc=AZPMWmaTwItFgrQYrelqZOWol1Phgz-S8_Op-HiqIhyU4nBYlHHrEnlqxFXL9_8xLAg
Joseph Kidwell
A secular right wing agenda no more represents the values of the Kingdom of God than a secular left wing agenda.
Joseph Kidwell
Right now, the threat posed to democracy in this country is coming from the right rather than the left. We have a President who believes that good people marched with I the Klan and Neo-Nazis in Virginia. He constantly sends out racist signals. David Duke praised his speech the other night.
Ira Huth
That is where you are wrong first of all right wing agenda for us Pentecostals is the Kingdom of light fighting the Kingdom of darkness. That is quite obvious! Threat to our democracy and freedoms started way before this and other recent Administrations.
Prayer taken out of the schools and public square, college campuses being indoctrinated with secular socialist world views that clearly contradict God’s Kingdom Principles, the breakdown of traditional famlies,just to name a few.
But the Kingdom of light always wins in the end. God bless your in my prayers Brother!
Ira Huth
This is nothing but liberal propaganda coming from Joseph Kidwell. For what to promote more division, to try to justify his choices or is he that blinded from the reality of the truth. Our President is far from being perfect, but is what our Nation and Washington needs at this time. We did not vote and elected a clergyman, but a leader of Nation with a heart for the people. Everyone has the freedom and the right to his or her opinions, whether they contradict the Word of God and the Fruit of the Holy Spirit. But at the end of the day we should respect each other and can living in unity for the common good of all. But for some even in the Church Clergy and laity a like just don’t want to live in peace and unity to agree to disagree. Very very sad, we need to pray for them. For this is not the image of Christ.
Joseph Kidwell
His life and actions are in direct opposition to God’s word.
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Looks like Pentecostals will be fighting pentecostals….but wait they already are, some lean to the left and some to the right….Now get things correct. I don’t support abortion or gay rights. So that puts me on the side of the right….and we are not Nazis or KKK. AND I AM A
A FLAG WAVING AMERICAN. FORMER TEAMSTER, AND A retired Bus driver.
Ira Huth
I lean my Brother on the Word of God within the Fruits and Gifts of the Holy Spirit. The only way to be.
Scotty Searan
Joseph Kidwell You lie on the President. President Trump said both parties were wrong. Both caused violence.
He said if you going to criticize the violence of one side you need to criticize the violence caused by the opposing parties.
The conservatives cannot speak on our campuses or have a public march without the Liberals protesting them.
Every place President Trump goes, the Liberals protests with violence.
Did you see those kind of protests with violence when President Obama was in office?
Ira Huth
Amen to that Brother Scotty Searan, Thanks to George Soros and others who ought to be locked up for inciting violence.
Varnel Watson
Dr. Joseph Kidwell back to the letter – what proof there is that Trump said these words?
Joseph Kidwell
The things that he has said publicly are enough to not only disqualify him from serving as President but also not worthy of the support of any child of God. However, no minds will be changed here, regardless of what facts are presented.
Varnel Watson
Well thats not what I asked. People who were saying he didnt say it are now claiming spiritual leaders who said he said it are now saying he did not say it and so on… BUT oh well
Ricky Grimsley
Joseph kidwell watches too much cnn.
Ira Huth
Sad Ricky Grimsley just shows how he aligns himself with the leftist liberals. Please pray that those in the Church has a change of heart. I know I will!!!
Ricky Grimsley
Possibly he is influenced by the prevailing thoughts of his church members. It certainly isn’t by the facts.
Ira Huth
I’ve thought of that also, regardless we need to pray down the strongholds not just for our brother but for all people in the body of Christ that our wrongfully being influenced.
Ricky Grimsley
All the politicians are probably bad. But I don’t see how liberals can call themselves Christian abortion is horrible
Ira Huth
I wouldn’t go that far Brother Ricky all though a lot of them are. The problem in our politics in order to get anything done you have to compromise and or just vote against party lines. I wish I could remember what Sarah Palin who is a Pentecostal in a interview when asked if elected how would should get things done with not being one of the good ole boys, but I can’t remember. I know there was discussion about another party, but that would be no good because it would split the ticket worse that it has ever had before. I know Senator John Ashcroft was a PK and a very good man. His father was ordained with the Assembly of God. I often wonder why he stepped down from being President Bush Jr.’s Attorney General retiring from politics. He was a guest speaker at a Pre General Assembly breakfast for Church of God. I wish I would of heard him speak. There was a African American male who I felt very strongly in my Spirit that would of been a real good possible candidate for President. Congressman C.J. Watts from Oklahoma. This was quite a few years back and I heard him speak. His father was a I believe a Baptist Pastor. But he got out of politics because he didn’t won’t to comprise his Christian values. It’s not easy know a days in our culture.
Ricky Grimsley
Liberalism is mental illness. Abortion, well distribution and globalism are inconsistent with christianity.
Joseph Kidwell
ROTFLOL! You all watch too much Fox News!
Ricky Grimsley
Fox lies too. I listen to info wars and do my own research.
Ricky Grimsley
If you support candidates that push abortion and gay marriage then repentance is required
Joseph Kidwell
If you support a blatant, in your face racist who wants to strip people of their health care, enact a tax cut that benefits the top 3 per-cent at the expense of everyone else, demonize Latino immigrants, believes that “good People” marched with the Klan in Virginia, you need to repent.
Ricky Grimsley
With all due respect, All those you said are untrue except about marching with Klan which was out of context since he was referring to most people were protesting were good people but there were some klan people there. If you think that Black lives and antics are any better than the klan you might be insane.
Joseph Kidwell
My facts are on point. You and you’re kind, by identifying Christianity with this devil, have damaged the reputation of Christ’s Church. Trust me, you and you’re kind will answer to God For your participation in and cooperation with evil.
Joseph Kidwell
I now will exit this group of backslidden, racist, bigoted professing Christians for good. I have better things to do with my time.
Ricky Grimsley
There is no racism here. You are just blind sir.
Ricky Grimsley
If you preach a social justice type gospel at your church it is you will answer for causing division instead of being a peacemaker.
Joseph D. Absher
As to the point as stated by the Reverend Bishop Joseph Kidwell “we can’t have war on the peninsula”
I’m against war. Any rational man is. But you have to know war is always an option. In fact it is preferred above tyranny. The time and place is entirely on the aggressors. And we are not the aggressors in this long conflict.
A missile over Japanese islands is apparently preferred by you than course talk by the commander in chief. You sir may know the know the collar and the robes but little of brass and cordite.
Varnel Watson
when we cross THAT river
Ain’ go’n’ to study war no mo’”
Joseph D. Absher
My dad was drafted for the Korean war. And stayed for a few more.
Joseph D. Absher
There is no denying Trump has problems. Real problems. But the day of the cover ups and the blind eye are over. It is very much like God to expose sin. I suppose it’s necessary at times. I welcome it. Just as long as it’s not mine. lol.
That’s all I’m saying be fair.
Varnel Watson
yap – same with the old preacher marine right here Went to Nam a young feller Stayed there 10yrs after the war. Came back and was enlisted in Korea flying smoke on the water. When the war was over took a walding job in Iran and stayed there until they told him was too old for war 🙂 My church aint gonna be no Texas church shooting stats Ricky Grimsley we treat our intruders with real nice service around here Our greeters are well trained
Joseph D. Absher
Problem is no one is to old to die. And war kills the young as well as the old.
Ricky Grimsley
What intruders. We keep blowing people overseas.
Varnel Watson
yet your TX churches get attacked like nothing
Ricky Grimsley
Our church is also well armed.
Joseph D. Absher
He didn’t want to go back to the coal mine. Stayed 32 years. He wouldn’t have lived longer but the cigarette got him in the end
Varnel Watson
No coal mining no more. Promise not kept
Joseph D. Absher
The Army has a strange affect on a man. I guess our pot smoking hippie friends are limited for context.
Ira Huth
Little fact checking there Brother Troy Day i do believe according to Brother Perry Stone and others from coal mining county it’s coming back. Or in the process. If and when I get a chance I will try to look it for you.
Joseph Kidwell
Yea, Ricky Grimsley, the fault must lie with those Black folk that I pastor. Smh…
.
Joseph D. Absher
I wrote something and deleted it.
Dear .Madam Secretary, Mrs Clinton;
It is with a heavy heart that I write to you today. Unfortunately it’s a matter of justice or the lack of it. I have no desire to relive the last few years.
The matter at hand is the bleaching and destruction of your work as a federal employee. This you did brazenly while under court order. It was wrong. Many preachers would call this sin. And with outrage and pretended courage demand your repentance. I’ll not do that.
The real challenge for me is to pray for you. I don’t always pray like I should. Like most christains I often say I’m praying but I don’t.
It must be hard to constantly be in the public eye. I mean nationally and internationally. I felt bad for you when it came out you had been protecting your husband only to find out the charges were true.
In short some of your decisions have been flawed. That’s one thing we have in common.
It is interesting to me writting a letter I suppose you’ll never read. Maybe we’ll stand together on the day of judgment. It will happen. Justice demands all get caught and address their wrong doing. Even if it’s in the next life. I often think of the day I’ll stand before God and give an account of what I’ve done and failed to do. And who I’ll see there. For me Jesus is the Christ the Saviour. The only real solution to the sin problem. He truly does take the burden of guilt and shame.
I found the mercy of God in the army. I wish all men, women, nation’s and tribes and people’s could make their peace with God by faith in Jesus Christ. Maybe that’s why I’m writing this letter to you. Maybe your ready. God knows.
A lot of people have prayed for you over the years. God has looked over you. I don’t fault you for Benghazi I don’t think Schwarzkopf himself could have saved those men. I don’t blame you for protecting your husband or sabotaging Bernie. None of that. The emails that was your big fail most us would have gotten hammered for that one.
Like I said we’ve all failed. I have skeletons in my closet. I still have some amends myself. Have mercy on me oh God. Help me Lord Jesus. Deliver me from every evil.
Anyway the thing to remember Mrs Clinton is there is no sin to great that he cannot forgive and no sin he can forget. Apart from Jesus Christ the Saviour and his Cross.
That’s the one sin nobody gets away with, not asking for forgiveness and rejecting Jesus Christ. I wouldn’t wish that for nobody. So maybe you’ll understand I got nothing but love for you. No rebukes just a little pleading. Please Madam Secretary for the life of your soul turn from sin and confess Jesus Christ.
Feel free to contact me. I’ll make time for you. God bless. Hope you will accept a few words from a street preacher. Boy we sure have a mess right now don’t we?
Ira Huth
Yes, YES, YES NOW THIS IS A LETTER THAT THIS GROUP, CLERGYMAN, LAITY AND THE ENTIRE BODY OF CHRIST SHOULD AGREE ON.
THANK YOU HOLY SPIRIT AND BROTHER JOE!!!!!!
Peter Vandever
Brain Zahnd is a college dropout from Missouri Western State College. NOT a doctorate.
Varnel Watson
Brain Zahnd was your pastor – didnt he do a doctorate in recent past?
Peter Vandever
He would have had to finish his degree, get a M.Div and get a doctrate in the last 15 years.
Varnel Watson
aaah who cares about him that much anyway
Bob Wizenhut
There are some valid criticisms listed in the letter to the President. But the authors disgrace themselves and lose their credibility when they try to argue that the President is just as dishonest as previous administrations because he claimed the Trump Tower was wire tapped. I get it. The current technology is no longer referred to as “wire tapping”. But to call that lying, much like calling it a lie to say I dialed your number today when the current technology involves poking the number, says more about the dishonesty of those attacking the President rather than staining the President himself.
Most Christians would say if the intelligence agency was illegally listening in on Trump’s conversations at Trump Tower then the claim that he was wire tapped is not dishonest.
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-trump-really-saved/
Bob Wizenhut
Who knows? Do you? Does it make a difference? Should people of God lie about a leader that they doubt is really saved? Were our past 3 President’s really saved? Why are you even asking the question?
Varnel Watson
I dont know – I have my doubts though
Bob Wizenhut
I’ve never assumed he was saved. I’m having surgery on Wednesday. The surgeon is skilled. I’ve never even inquired on whether he is saved. I went to see my mechanic today. I trust him. But I’ve also never asked myself whether he is saved. I guess I just have a general distrust of the motives of those that go around asking if this person or that is saved.
Gene Brown
Bob i am not judging Prez Trump.i don’t know his heart, neither do you. I can’t judge you either. That would make me God,i am not God. Don’t be prejudice. Statistics are on any search engine. Blacks are at least 65%higher than whites. Don’t lie to yourself, and others. Bblessed
Jeanette Elizondo
If the President is not saved are you praying for his salvation ?? All I know is that Trump is exposing the corruption that has been going on in our government I truly believe God is using Trump for such a time as this whether he is SAVED OR NOT GOD CAN USE WHO EVER HE CHOOSES . Trump has done the best job as any of the past Presidents : the other presidents sold America out this one is trying to help AMERICA & for that I am grateful & I pray for Trump everyday !! If we are judging I sure did not see the past presidents taking a stand to help christian’s as Trump has .
Gene Brown
I agree 100%
James Molenaar
Jeanette Elizondo well said.
Steve Losee
I was going to comment, but I won’t bother.
Varnel Watson
you best be praying or doing podcasts
Varnel WatsonVan Go
Ugh. I’m embarrassed for these signers. This is simply posturing for approval.
Varnel Watson
William DeArteaga WHEN a prophetic call as this is given ONE must listen repent turn away less the judgment of GOD follows
Jim Price “[T]he facts in this instance are unambiguous: The president of the United States attempted to use his political power to coerce a foreign leader to harass and discredit one of the president’s political opponents. That is not only a violation of the Constitution; more importantly, it is profoundly immoral.”
Jerome Herrick Weymouth Facebook is cracking down on Conservative content. Many of you have complained that you never see our content in your news feeds. There’s only one way to fight back — and that’s by subscribing to my FREE weekly newsletter. Click here.
On Thursday Christianity Today released a shocking call for President Trump to be removed from office. The magazine, founded by Billy Graham, was once a respected and revered publication. But in recent years, the magazine has embraced liberalism – specifically social justice causes, identity politics and wokeness.
As I predicted in my column last night, the Mainstream Media is pushing a narrative that Christianity Today speaks for all evangelicals. They do not. And they certainly do not speak for the late Billy Graham.
‘My Father Would Have Been Disappointed’: Franklin Graham Fires Back at Christianity Today’s ‘Elitist Liberal’ In a statement posted to his Facebook page early Friday, Graham, the president and CEO of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and of Samaritan’s Purse, an international Christian relief organization, wrote his response to the publication which was founded in 1956 by his father, the late Billy Graham. Graham, 67, noted his father would not have agreed with the publication’s stance and would have been very disappointed with it. He also revealed that the late evangelist even voted for the President.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/trump-impeachment-inquiry/trump-blasts-evangelical-magazine-after-it-calls-him-profoundly-immoral-n1105621
Varnel Watson
WHIT is the EXACT truth of the matter here Hugh Lowrie Nelson Banuchi FROM what is said there is a definite evidence BUT it is NOT overwhelming evidence …
Hugh Lowrie
We have no reason to doubt that Billy Graham would be disappointed with Christianity Today. Billy was slow to embrace multiethnic unity but beyond that, his political beliefs weren’t that different than his son’s.
Varnel Watson
Hugh Lowrie IS THIS because of his open embrace of secret masonry? MOST Presidents he served were sworn upon masonic documents OR the said bible of masonic DC Lodge #1 https://www.charismanews.com/us/79284-dr-dobson-calls-on-christianity-today-to-name-replacement-for-trump
Hugh Lowrie
Troy Day – let me understand what you are asking. Are you suggesting the Billy Graham was secretly embracing masonry or are you talking about Franklin Graham?
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi when is too far too far? the man’s got to repent there is NO need to discuss this until true repentance is manifested; however to demonize a politician is not out of the Bible – even the Bible calls many as satan is _still_ the ruler of this world according to the BIBLE though NAR tries to take over for Jesus or some other utopia they come up with
when you get the whole Pentecostal world praying for POTUS and calling him to repent and NOW you get the very deep South baptist CT which we;ve quoted time after time in this group with William DeArteaga something ought to give right? …. instead charisma the mag promotes these 21 false facts – I can agree with a dozen of them and the author who is said to have lived in DC ought to KNOW but all of them as a group of 21 in reference of impeachment is way far of a reach for me Isara Mo Joe Absher WHERE is the GIFT of wisdom to sort the 21 and come up with the real ones and give us the direction and wisdom to pray for the true problem here https://www.charismanews.com/opinion/heres-the-deal/74772-21-ways-the-devil-is-using-the-democratic-party-to-destroy-america?fbclid=IwAR3xtS0norAKjHQvLlGTGNmmTcis8mLfUAtTAz11kRtbxuASIM5yNWeHlM8
Varnel Watson
Newsweek’s headline blared, “Pastor Prays for Trump to Defeat Deep State ‘Witchcraft,’ Speaks in Tongues.” The article that followed said, “Kilpatrick connected America’s current scourge of ‘witchcraft’ that is attacking the president to a biblical struggle in which Trump is in a ‘showdown’ for power with the shadows of the Deep State. In the video, Kilpatrick can be seen shouting and speaking in tongues as he prays for Trump to defeat the evil ‘witchcraft’ powers.” https://www.newsweek.com/alabama-pastor-john-kilpatrick-witchcraft-trump-jezebel-speaking-tongues-1087386
Varnel Watson
and there is also that https://www.businessinsider.com/george-conway-other-republicans-launch-effort-defeat-trump-in-2020-2019-12/amp/
Isara Mo
Bold Christians God bless them.
Cowards don’t enter heaven
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo it is A opinion call and appeal shared by many outside the USA including our own RichardAnna Boyce BUT is it the opinion of many within our great country Hugh Lowrie Brandon Nelson and Ed Brewer have all expressed the standard 2 sides of the story Jim Price William DeArteaga have expressed a more concerned conservative evangelical view with which I tend to side from time to time BUT do they all justify a restart of republicanism? Our democracy is AT STAKE and a simple mime of Trump as Satan ghost of Christmas past just aint gonna cut it no more
Varnel Watson
HOW did we GET to here? …
Hugh Lowrie
The letter to the President looks like it was written by Jim Wallis, who would be critical of any God fearing President working to implement policies that honor God. If the want to criticize President Trump for his words & tone, you have much to criticize him about. But those same individuals doing so were silent when President Obama had words and/or tone worthy of criticism. But if you talk about policy, President Trump gets higher marks than recent previous Presidents, for choosing policies that honor God. Generally, we don’t expect Democrat Presidents to do things that honor God but even President Bush failed to make Christians happy with his policies. Maybe President Trump is different because he is the first President to not be controlled by any special interest group? In short, the list from the pastors is short on substance and largely political attacks, not genuine disagreements on policy based on scripture.
Varnel Watson
Hugh Lowrie The letter is from last year and we’ve discussed it time and time again without fruit of repentance I was referring to many if not all Presidents served who took oath over masonic scripts OR the Bible of DC Lodge #1 http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/masonic-bibles-and-oaths-in-the-inauguration-of-united-states-presidents/
Hugh Lowrie
Troy Day – I don’t know anything about other Presidents taking oaths over masonic scripts so don’t have much interest in such a conversation. Are you suggesting that President Trump is just as beholden to masonry as past Presidents or are you suggesting that the reason why he is viciously and relentlessly attacked by the establishment is that he is the first one who is not one of them?
Varnel Watson
Hugh Lowrie are you not reading ANYTHING that I write? What is Trump
Hugh Lowrie
You said, “HOW did we GET to here? … Hugh Lowrie IDK really the answer to your question above Just follow the history”. So what did I miss?
Varnel Watson
are you not reading ANYTHING that I write? What is Trump going to do about Masons? – there is NO way that you would know
My comment was about the CT article and the Grahams Pls follow closely MOST if not ALL Presidents Graham served were open masons or openly embracing masony Hence his acceptance and all
Was AMERICA found by masons? were the Founding Fathers: Christians or Masons…or Both?
5 of the Founding fathers of the United States of America were MASONS: Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams, George Washington. It is true that the United States was founded by Freemasons who have interwoven Masonic symbols into American society, particularly in national seals, streets in Washington, D.C., architecture, and the dollar bill.
14 Presidents of the United States of America were Masons: George Washington, James Monroe, Andrew Jackson, James Polk, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, James Garfield, William McKinley, Teddy Roosevelt, William Taft, Warren Harding, F. D. Roosevelt, Harry Truman, and Gerald Ford.
At least a dozen of the United States of America Presidents were sworn / took oath on the Washington Bible ( inl. unknown or unrecorded) open on various passages of Masonic importance. Hence the current Lincoln project
Hugh Lowrie
Troy Day – I’m sorry but I’m still not understanding why you are pulling me into a discussion about the masons and what you think that has to do with President Trump.
Isara Mo
Obey the king’s command, I say, because you took an oath before God. Since a king’s word is supreme, who can say to him, “What are you doing?”
Ecclesiastes 8:2, 4 NIV//
Varnel Watson
would you obey the king of China when you are told to deny Christ? NONE Of the early Christians obeyed the Roman king who ordered them to deny Christ or burn
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Who enthroned and dethroned Kings but God.
Who knows the hearts of kings but God..
The Word says honor and obey authority which implicitly means honor and obey the OFFICE of the King.
Now when there is a problem with the PERSON of the King and not the office of the King we should ask God for counsel not confront the King with our councils.
If Trump was a Pagan president would the so called Evangelicals attack him?
Now if the King of China (or elsewhere) tells me to deny CHRIST I would look first at the spirit in him not the man in him.
Shadrack Meshack Abednego disobeyed the King so did Daniel for reasons which endangered or rather imperiled their faith..
Has Donald Trump imperiled the faith of “Evangelicals”
Troy the Kings word is supreme even if He is a Pharaoh..
Don’t make him angry he has a sword and he case use it against you….your anointing withstanding
Varnel Watson
Isara Mo IDK – I am just saying how neither Paul nor early Christians obeyed the Emperor – BTW look up the word used in Greek for KING _ Trump is not our king JESUS IS _ we obey JESUS the KING
Isara Mo
Troy Day
I am posting this looong verse to see if what is raised in the posts resonance with the WORD
//
Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.
The authorities that exist have been established by God.
Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves.
For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended.
For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good.
But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.
Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
Romans 13:1-5 NIV
//
Isara Mo
Plse note that my quoting of Scriptures or anything from the Bible is not my attempt to defend President Trump but to bring to light the realities of the word against our wishes and wants and desires..
Isn’t God the Sovereign Lord over all mortal kings..?
Isara Mo
Troy Day
The king’s heart is in the hand of the Lord , as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
Proverbs 21:1 KJV//
A verse worth meditating on
Isara Mo
Troy Day
Agree with you Trump is not the King of Americans but the President of the Americans.
If Jesus is King it is worthwhile spending our time discussing the King than the president.
It seems the President is getting more airtime than the King dear brother Troy.
I am not an American citizen but I see that some section of church is taking sides in the ongoing political problem which I personally view as very bad policy.
The Bible says pray for your leaders not take sides..
I enjoy talking about Jezebel and the demonic than these matters of the state…
Brother Troy there are spirits of distraction that are usually sent to God’s people to steal their attention from God..
They are distractors. They consume time and energy and makes the man of God tired at the end of the day such that he can’t serve his KING properly.
Brother Troy there are billions of unsaved souls out who have not given their lives to your King.. Wouldn’t it be a better idea to direct our efforts towards them than spend our time with issues of the President?.
I am not the President but if I were, I would have told the Church to cleanse its offices first before they can come to cleanse mine for without doubt the Church and not the White House need to remove the plank from its eyes FIRST then be in a position to remove the plank from the President’s..
IDK if I said it right…
Isara Mo
Repentance is a matter of the heart is not a matter of the fist.
You can never force a man to repent.
.
Varnel Watson
Hugh Lowrie what do you mean by that?
Hugh Lowrie
Troy – what statement are you responding to? Not sure what conversation we are having here.
Varnel Watson
Hugh Lowrie your last statement above which is pretty vogue as usually You are still NOT answering my question which if you dont remember was about the current CT article NOW we have this one from Trump himself to ponder upon https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/19/politics/trump-ukraine-putin-white-house-officials/
Hugh Lowrie
Still not sure what question wasn’t answered not which of the my statements above you are referring to. Give me the question again in one simple sentence.
Varnel Watson
Hugh Lowrie seems to be your usual response when the facts speak of themselves No question – just a comment with facts That’s all Easy to grasp as 1 – 2 – 3 but I will wait for the new article by William DeArteaga before proceeding
Hugh Lowrie
Troy Day I thought you had a question that I still wasn’t answering. Sounds to me like you are dancing around without any point to the conversation, referring back to something that for whatever reason you would clarify.
William DeArteaga
Troy Day Did you want me to go ahead and do it? I thught you indicated others were doing it?
Varnel Watson
YES William DeArteaga the time of your article is at hand https://www.christianpost.com/news/nearly-200-evangelical-leaders-slam-christianity-today-for-questioning-their-christian-witness.html?fbclid=IwAR3QpeWX5I0tR4P3aTeip6JtvMjgaO5kS8Yq-QG0ceTDVUu_W1nCOVWI-CQ
Varnel Watson
THE EVANGELICAL VOTE in 2020 is AT STAKE
Plenty of publications, including the editorial boards of many of the nation’s leading daily newspapers, have run pieces in recent weeks calling for the president’s impeachment and ouster, but all have gone ignored by the Republican.
This one, however, prompted an angry Twitter response.
“A far left magazine, or very ‘progressive,’ as some would call it, which has been doing poorly and hasn’t been involved with the Billy Graham family for many years, Christianity Today, knows nothing about reading a perfect transcript of a routine phone call and would rather have a Radical Left nonbeliever, who wants to take your religion & your guns, than Donald Trump as your President,” he wrote. “No President has done more for the Evangelical community, and it’s not even close. You’ll not get anything from those Dems on stage. I won’t be reading ET again!”
“In an unwittingly self-revealing moment, Trump responded to the magazine’s indictment of his profound moral failings with an argument that is thoroughly transactional and megalomaniacal: How dare you criticize me, after all the power I’ve granted to your movement? You’re breaking our deal, and now you’re dead to me.”
Exactly. The president seems to believe he’s bought the fealty of certain constituencies, and when he learns otherwise, he lashes out angrily.
THE EVANGELICAL VOTE in 2020 is AT STAKE
Varnel Watson
this NEW CT article William DeArteaga is a GREAT example WHY evangelical leaders should NOT mingle with politics I respect Franklin greatly – all Franklin preachers in politics ; I do not fully agree with the CT article by the so called lone writer He is NOT a lone writer – the editor of CT wrote in FULL agreement with CT staff but this is another story of morals and political struggle
The problem there is franklin Jr has no control over CT which he considers to be his fathers creation So long to fraternal orders IMO So because CT cannot be used for his political campaigning he threw them under the bus time and time again Well not ALL evangelicals agree with CT or with Franklin Jr We are still a free country right? Freedom of speech and religion RIGHT? not just what we are ordered by fraternal orders and our supreme church leaders – right?
NOW then yet another Franklin comes along to reject CT and make them non – evangelical But they are And they are very very southern baptist and not so much with Trump – now then when I come to Jentzens statement
Socialism was on the rise and our religious liberties as citizens, business owners, and even clergy were being threatened at greater levels than any other time in modern history.
this alone tells me he should NOT be in politics especially in the seat of advisory He could be spiritual whatever but should be silent about politics cause he aint got a clue I bet his church conglomerate is run more like socialism than America would ever be BUT I Will leave my comments for later …
for now just like M Brown, jentzen wants the good of America via Trump but is confused and in deep moral crises when POTUS behaves as a heeden Well not just todays issue Was the issue of the 3-4th century church which sided with the Empire and the every church ever since that has sided with any empire
Welcome to Evangelical catholicism – more socialist that America will ever be! Long live the Republic …
Varnel Watson
Doyle Rogers Joe Absher Jim Price William DeArteaga Hugh Lowrie Mike Partyka I just like to pint out THAT what CT is saying today as southern baptist was FIRST said by over 100 Pentecostals leaders more than a year earlier Regarding CT’s article today. Yes of course we have concern for some of the actions done by this office but and us a huge indeed It’s time to say what we said 20 years ago when a president’s character was revealed for what it was. Because the facts in this instance are unambiguous: The president of the United States attempted to use his political power to coerce a foreign leader to harass and discredit one of the president’s political opponents. That is not only a violation of the Constitution; more importantly, it is profoundly
This concern for the character of our national leader is not new in CT. In 1998, we wrote this:
The President’s failure to tell the truth—even when cornered—rips at the fabric of the nation. This is not a private affair. For above all, social intercourse is built on a presumption of trust: trust that the milk your grocer sells you is wholesome and pure; trust that the money you put in your bank can be taken out of the bank; trust that your babysitter, firefighters, clergy, and ambulance drivers will all do their best. And while politicians are notorious for breaking campaign promises, while in office they have a fundamental obligation to uphold our trust in them and to live by the law.
And this:
Unsavory dealings and immoral acts by the President and those close to him have rendered this administration morally unable to lead.
Unfortunately, the words that we applied to Mr. Clinton 20 years ago apply almost perfectly to our current president. Whether Mr. Trump should be removed from office by the Senate or by popular vote next election—that is a matter of prudential judgment. That he should be removed, we believe, is not a matter of partisan loyalties but loyalty to the Creator of the Ten Commandments.
immoralhttps://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/december-web-only/trump-should-be-removed-from-office.html
Varnel Watson
Jim Price William DeArteaga pls NOT that FB has BLOCKED this CT article as a matter of controversial Christian right content and is NOT applying picture THUMB or any other usual more notable markers The article is just blocked
Hugh Lowrie
There is nothing inappropriate about pressing other countries to help with investigations into corruption. We have signed treaties that bind other countries to do so. Just because Joe Bidden is a political figure doesn’t make him immune to legitimate investigation. And if doing what the President did was considering “for his own personal benefit” then his tax cuts and trade war with China should also be considered the same as anything the President does to benefit America helps his reelection campaign. Let’s stop looking at this purely from a partisan “we hate Trump” lens.
Varnel Watson
Hugh Lowrie William DeArteaga HALF TRUTHS again?
There is nothing inappropriate about pressing other countries to help with investigations into corruption. TRUE but half
There is nothing inappropriate about pressing other countries to help with investigations into corruption that involves your 2020 POTUS opponen – WRONG; such diminishes the very pillars of democracy in our Republic Speaks of morality
Hugh Lowrie
The problem with that logic is that if creates a two tier system of justice where one entire party is immune from corruption investigations because they are potential political opponents. Crowd strike, Ukraine interference in the election and Bidens inappropriate actions in the Ukraine need to be investigated, period. It’s not appropriate to give out passes merely because one is a politician or running for office.
Mike Partyka
Troy Day just like anything else that comes from the left. Compared to what? That is what you have to ask. Trump compared to what ? Name another candidate from the left who you would prefer over Trump? That’s what you’re faced with. The lesser of two evils. No matter how you want to spin it that’s what you’re faced with.
Hugh Lowrie
It would be wrong for a Christian to be blindly loyal to President Trump and accept anything and everything he does, merely because of blind loyalty. It is just as wrong for a Christian to get sucked into Trump derangement syndrome and spend 3 years of their life dedicated to trying to find some impeachable gotcha to accuse the President of. And then to jump on board of an accusation of coercion, based on hearsay evidence, ignoring the exculpatory evidence.
When President Trump was elected, I assumed that he might be dishonest or have a shady past. But after a 3-year, partisan investigation that couldn’t come up empty I’m now convinced that this administration may be the most honest and honorable in the history of our country.
Joe Absher
Proverbs 27:7 KJV — The full soul loatheth an honeycomb; but to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet.
Varnel Watson
Ken Van Horn The people who elect are the problem
Really? How come? Are they guilty of the leaders sins
ONE THING is FOR SURE James P Bowers 2020 campaign has already began in the churches and most American Evangelicals are NOT happy with TRUMP as their choice for POTUS; when I say most I mean without Ask Dr M Brown who is only happy when he call sell books and blogs on political topics from either way of the wall – for or against Trump; all because he couldnt cut it in the FL revivals and afterwords
Joe Absher
Proverbs 27:7 KJV — The full soul loatheth an honeycomb; but to the hungry soul every bitter thing is sweet.
Varnel Watson
Thanks for your comment Hugh Lowrie but we dont elect a pastor but a president – a commander in chief. The morality still stands but you are failing to explain HOW is all this affecting the mission of GOD and the ministry of the church via our witness of moral strongholds and democratic values I too believe President was very honest when he stated that
he believes Ukraine interfered in 2016 election because ‘Putin told me’
I take this at face value
POTUS said therefore it must be so
It is what it is
https://edition.cnn.com/2019/12/19/politics/trump-ukraine-putin-white-house-officials/?fbclid=IwAR1-C80WPVU8MCNsnhrRRJQLkuN2vfsnUjYk9CbIY6bh8tgtpIvkaXkotnk
Hugh Lowrie
We’ve saw a strong decline in people that identified as Christian during the previous administration. While that decline may have slowed, it hasn’t been reversed under President Trump. I believe it is important than non-Christians see Progressives and Conservatives, blacks & whites, coming together in worship without making political ideology what binds them together.
While Mueller investigated Russia collusion at length and giving us confidence that there isn’t anything there, we have had no real investigation on collusion with the Ukraine or Ukraine’s allegations of corruption that included American politicians. Ukraine is known for corruption and the allegations are credible. Personally, I’d like to see the Senate put both Biden’s on the stand and I’d like to see Adams Schiff questioned under auth on his role in helping write the “whistle blower report”.
Varnel Watson
Hugh Lowrie as I already stated above several times I am neither for not against this CT line of articles My take on them is quite negative as they simply follow/ride what Pentecostals already did {as usual} The mission of GOD remains the same – I will keep my comments on that for the article by William DeArteaga on the false TRUMP prophecies
Hugh Lowrie
Troy Day – and as I stated before, the CT article reads like it was written by Jim Wallis. When Jim Wallis writes, the intent is to attack Christianity and tear down, never to persuade or find common ground. So for example, the article attacks Trump (and indirectly the 53 millions Americans that voted for him) for “demonization of immigrants and minorities”. OK, let’s have an honest discussion on which is more in line with Biblical teaching, open borders or rules based immigration. But let’s not pretend that millions of Christians that don’t support open borders are anti-immigrant or anti-minority. In fact, Black Lives Matter Cincinnati is making the case that the President Trump administration is the first in 5 decades to do things to help black Americans and dismantle systemic injustice. And we see it in the President’s rising approval rating among black voters.
Hugh Lowrie
As I stated before, the CT article reads like it was written by Jim Wallis. When Jim Wallis writes, the intent is to attack Christianity and tear down, never to persuade or find common ground. So for example, the article attacks Trump (and indirectly the 53 millions Americans that voted for him) for “demonization of immigrants and minorities”. OK, let’s have an honest discussion on which is more in line with Biblical teaching, open borders or rules based immigration. But let’s not pretend that millions of Christians that don’t support open borders are anti-immigrant or anti-minority. In fact, Black Lives Matter Cincinnati is making the case that the President Trump administration is the first in 5 decades to do things to help black Americans and dismantle systemic injustice. And we see it in the President’s rising approval rating among black voters.
Varnel Watson
NO take on the CT article on my part There were several articles BTW just to be clear and has been before; but the ONE that was taken by liberal media was the CT article which cited the SAME texts they published about Clinton 20 yrs ago – no difference WHY Should we as evangelical Christians make difference between these 2 POTUS? they are the same type of crooks if you ask me; but pls ask me AFTER William DeArteaga puts out his article on that which will answer most questions Jim Price
Hugh Lowrie
I’d be interested in seeing those texts. I’m sure that these same pastors weren’t calling President Clinton anti immigrant and anti minority for his opposition to open borders.
Hugh Lowrie
This article is a form of hate speech against Christians, the church and traditional Christian teaching.
Christians understand why other Christians don’t support infanticide and do support that sanctity of marriage. You can refer to those concepts without the need to dig into individual verses on the topic. But if you want to make the case that President Trump is immoral and that he and the Christians that voted for him are going to hell because they don’t support open borders, well that is a different thing. Christians don’t understand why Democrats that were against open borders twenty years ago now support open borders and believe that there is a moral mandate from God to do so. So, if this is your belief, you can’t assume that others will understand the basis of your position. You can’t skip giving the Biblical mandate for open borders. You must dig into the scripture passages and do more than reference a passage to “love the foreigner in your midst”, which those that oppose open borders can do in good conscience without embracing open border. And you must persuade those with a different view than your own without doing what Stephen Matson does when he writes that Evangelicals that support President Trump put partisan politics ahead of Biblical teaching. No Stephen, it’s that no one has made the case yet for why the Bible teaching that we must have open borders.
Like Stephen Matson’s articles, this article is disrespectful of every Christian that has more traditional views.
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
interesting
Varnel Watson
you JUST Now see that? P:) Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Michael Ellis Carter Jr.
Troy Day just have not been willing to care up to this point ?
John Duncan
So terrible that we do not think Matt 18:15-18 principles do not apply to our president. We are supposed to do unto others… none of these ministers would appreciate a public accusation by committee done to them. This is anti-Bible actions. Pres. Trump should be approached in PRIVATE first in a humble way. Then get one other person if he cannot answer. Then finally exposed. Not just do it our way – this should be done according to the Scriptures.
JameyJoy Doss
John Duncan I agree. This is why our church suffers. Leadership who do not care to live out the scriptures. Only condemning and not making any room for repentance. Lording over others with open rebuke before meeting them in private beforehand.
All of them will pray but none will admonish due to the fear of public ridicule. Love covers a multitude of sin.
Tim Bias
It’s amazing to me how people put Trump on blast without recognizing that voting for his opponents in 2016 or 2020 would set the church, it’s cause & it’s efforts back 100 yrs. Hillary wanted to take away tax exemption for churches, so does Biden and Pocahontas. Let’s see how much righteous indignation these Pastors have when it hits their pocketbooks. When you vote, you’re hiring someone to do a job. When you step on a plane, you could care less whether the pilot is a misogynist, xenophobic or any of the other things these myopic idiots accuse Trump of being, you just want that person in the cockpit to be a good pilot. Policies, work ethic, performance. Trump checks the box on these categories. Opponents – not so much
Tim Bias
…and if you vote for his opponents what happens to the church – it’s efforts and it’s cause? He’s hired to do a job, not be our moral compass.
Varnel Watson
actually he is hired to be a moral compass for the nation and the world In political theology as we study it together the Creation is best ruled by moral compass coming straight from GOD To say that one ruler does NOT serve God’s moral compass is to say that ruler serves the devil William DeArteaga makes grate case for this in his recent article on fake Trump prophets
Tim Bias
Troy Day Let’s say hypothetically that one of the Presidents roles is to be our moral compass, despite Jesus instruction to “render unto Caesar that which is Caesars”- voting for his opponents (Biden, Warren, Sanders etc.) kicks the church and it’s efforts in the teeth, as well as promoting policies that fly in the face of Gods Word (i.e. killing babies & exalting homosexuality). All I’m saying is the pastors and drs mentioned in your post don’t seem to mind the alternative which, if not hypocritical, is at best myopic.
Varnel Watson
Tim Bias All we owe Caesar is our taxes. Have you paid yours? But just your comment right there makes Trump Caesar which he is not neither is he king. This is America. We have no Caesars and kings but Jesus It is the very foundation of our democracy And the very attempt of so called Christians to make Trump Caesar or king already shows a loss of moral compass for the Church Trump’s moral compass was lost a very long time ago… Nelson Banuchi James P Bowers William DeArteaga http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/caesars-tax-trump-and-theology/
Varnel Watson
John Duncan JameyJoy Doss for the sake of balance and honesty I asked James P Bowers and Nelson Banuchi HOW do we balance Pres-Trump’s latest prayer in schools and March for Life involvement Is it a true Christian stance or just another evangelical vote move
Joe Collins
Troy Day I believe it is a stance because no other president in my life has put as much action behind what they say they believe. People would vote for his words on that because that’s what they have been doing for years. We have seen so much progress in this area since he has been president. Some of this article has some validity but not all of it. He is definitely not against the church and his actions have shown that.
Varnel Watson
Joe Collins not so in my life but this is beyond the point What are other positives you can count for this POTUS Nelson Banuchi What progress and which area exactly?
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day I’d like to wait and see what the longterm results are…
Btw, Joe Collins, he seems to be “not against the church,” only because it promotes his own interests, similar in some respects to Hitler’s use of the Church in order to ascend to power. Let the Church criticize him and then we’ll see what happens.
Joe Collins
Troy Day
1. On May 4, 2017, the President signed an executive order to greatly enhance religious freedom and freedom of speech: taking action to ensure that religious institutions may freely exercise their First Amendment right to support and advocate for candidates and causes in line with their values;
2. reversal of the Obama administration’s policy denying disaster aid to houses of worship, allowing houses of worship to receive crucial aid in times of crisis.
3. October 2017, the Department of Justice issued twenty principles of religious liberty to guide the Administration’s litigation strategy to protect religious freedom.
Joe Collins
In January 2018, the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) announced three major policy changes to protect freedom of religion:
forming a new Conscience and Religious Freedom Division, providing HHS with the focus it needs to more vigorously and effectively enforce existing laws protecting the rights of conscience and religious freedom; and
proposing to more vigorously enforce 25 existing statutory conscience protections for Americans involved in HHS programs, protecting Americans who have religious or moral convictions related to certain health care services.
Joe Collins
Within a week of taking office, President Trump reinstated and expanded the Mexico City Policy, which protects $9 billion in foreign aid from being used to fund the global abortion industry and its advocates.
Joe Collins
President Trump signed H.J. Res. 43 into law, overturning a midnight regulation by the Obama Administration, which prohibited States from defunding certain abortion facilities in their Federally funded family planning programs.
Joe Collins
President Trump rescinded an Obama-era policy that hindered States in their efforts to direct Medicaid funding away from abortion facilities that violate the law or fail to meet relevant standards of care.
Lee Bumgarner
Article from Jan 18, while not perfect he has maintained a decorum that makes me believe that he has changed internally.
Varnel Watson
which article is from Jan 18? Lee Bumgarner http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/is-trump-really-saved/
Nelson Banuchi
Short answer, No.
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi I think we are pass the short answers From this point till the 2020 elections we ARE obligated to provide a full and holistic discussion on this issue MANY evangelical voters in America are depending on it and they will NOT take short answers ever again
JameyJoy Doss
Pro Israel, Pro Life, Pro Prayer, Pro Jobs.
Also I want to know if there are any scriptures in the New Testament that says we should publicly criticize our leaders.
Romans 13:1-2
Every person is to be in subjection to the governing authorities For there is no authority except from God, and those which exist are established by God. Therefore whoever resists authority has opposed the ordinance of God; and they who have opposed will receive condemnation upon themselves.
.
Daniel 2:21
“It is He who changes the times and the epochs; He removes kings and establishes kings; He gives wisdom to wise men And knowledge to men of understanding.
Daniel 2:37-38
“You, O king, are the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, the strength and the glory; and wherever the sons of men dwell, or the beasts of the field, or the birds of the sky, He has given them into your hand and has caused you to rule over them all. You are the head of gold.
John 19:11
Verse Concepts
Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”
These are just a few. Scriptures. We are to know and believe that either they be a Godly or Ungodly leader we are to submit.
I appreciate opinions but Gods word establishes how he deals with it. He uses the foolishness maybe to us to be silent and pray. Not to blast and disdain.
We all can sit in Judgement but know this it is the Lord who establishes Kong’s, pharaohs, and governing authorities and the like.
He uses those authorities for either the cursing and or the blessing of a country or Kingdom.
Varnel Watson
JameyJoy Doss so on the prolife he just changes recently and that does not mean is not pro abortion as well at the same time as were Obama and Clinton; Obama and Clinton met MORE times @ camp DAVID, both prayed publicly Obama even sang amazgin grace and as for the jobs;;;; Clinton balanced the budget @ 0 gas was c53 a gallon – what is the difference with now except that gas is $2-4 and the budget is not balanced ? Nelson Banuchi Joe Collins BTW as far as we have seen since 2016 till now an exec. order dont mean jack It is not a law it could be easily revoked and is more of an appeasement of the flesh and pre-election campaign move
JameyJoy Doss
Can you address scriptural references of how we are to treat our leaders. I am neither democrat or Republican. I am a Christian first. Jesus said pray for the peace of Israel. Not sure the debate should be over presidential flaws, every king has and or needs his prophetic voice. But the way the prophetic voice and voice of the spirit of God comes to him who is a leader should be from scriptural bias and not mans sentiments.
Varnel Watson
JameyJoy Doss I could in a separate post as we have done before Turmp is NO king This is America we have NO kings as a rule of our democracy However, this OP addresses a particular letter text by Pentecostal scholars calling for repentance BTW I am not sure that your information on recent reforms is accurately holistic. Tax reform hurting the churches and religious freedom omitted from your list that comes first to mind right now
JameyJoy Doss
Troy Day I do believe trump is a leader and Gods sovereignty has orchestrated his leadership in America. Just as many would provide the truth of Gods words speaks that our gifts make room for us.
As far as I see it in scripture God is not of a democracy but a theocracy. Therefore our assumption scripturally it can be implied that God himself has allowed and or possibly orchestrated all our presidents in the past. Even if Man chose everyone. As you can plainly see we only had two choices. Hillary and Trump. Was the choice the lesser of two evils? In you’re picture you see several ministers leaders of churches laying hands on the president asking God to lead him and to admonish him. I do not think any of them except Paula White proclaimed President trump to be a believer. I do however believe that it is especially interesting how Jared Kushner is his son in law. Melanie Trump has confessed being a Christian and seems for all purposes to have a loving and humble spirit on her. With all these things around the president including our Vice President Pence, and prayer from our Christian leaders and other The body of Christ we can only hope that God turns his heart closer to him. Also as stated in my previous reply. God is allowing the testing of his people and the pruning as one could say to admonish the Church(those who proclaim Christ and Live holy lives) to be challenged and to rely solely on God for our substance. Will we serve God even when we seem to be chastised? It rains on the Just and the Unjust alike. Leadership policies effect all. None of us are less affected than even our lost and unbelieving. But God shows favor to us all through his ability not that of any leader.
Just as God raised up a great nation of Israelites under the hard labor of Pharoh. So also God can sustain us as Christians in the times we live in today.
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day “an exec. order dont mean jack It is not a law it could be easily revoked”
Precisely why any praise given now to Trump is premature…
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi cant disagree with that IF all is just a front for evangelical 2020 voters they WOW to the church
JameyJoy Doss Gods sovereignty has orchestrated his leadership in America.
pls consult this FIRST http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/donald-trumps-presidency-and-false-prophecy/
Varnel Watson
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/caesars-tax-trump-and-theology/
Jevan Little
Repent of what?
Varnel Watson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=89&v=9h0HIm53Jus&feature=emb_title
Robert Fletcher
This letter DOES NOT speak for, nor any of the Pentecostal pastors I know. The letter sounds like a Democrat document, written by someone with Trump derangement syndrome.
I don’t like his language at times, but this man has become the best friend to Evangelicals the country may have ever seen. He IS DEFINITELY the best friend to Israel the USA has ever had in the White House.
Keep your manifestos to yourself and NEVER PRESUME to speak for any group in general O in particular.
Pastor Rob Fletcher
Henrietta Church of God
Henrietta, TX
CW Sellers
Would these be the hypothetical among the body? As Paul, the scales need to fall before the Father holds them to account by revealing the “Hidden Secrets” in their own closet. I pray Lord that you protect the President YOU have placed and hold those that question YOUR decision questionable. Lord, expose all lust and immoral sin within the leadership within the body first, cleanse YOUR remnant so leaders will purely lead with the TRUE WORD YOU provided and not their personal interpretation of it. As we all know, sin skews one’s interpretation. Your Word warns us not to oppose YOUR chosen. Sin also causes the lack of common sense, that is evident here. This is what will cause the “Great” falling away. Seared consciouses and reprobate minds should not lead, pastors, walk into purity and seek help! National statistics say that 50% of you suffer with lust issues.
Dan Brent
CW Sellers: Was Obama also God’s chosen? I don’t remember white evangelicals treating him with much respect.
Varnel Watson
Dan Brent I may be the first to admit to that too
CW Sellers
Dan Brent, FACT, God places all leaders. What leaders do thereafter is the results of their own free will. God gives us that right! It’s the Pharisees and Sadducees types God will judge!
Varnel Watson
CW Sellers I can see where Ricky Grimsley may disagree with you on this one right here
Varnel Watson
GOD will protect a president who found a reason shuts down churches for weeks if not months at the time
JameyJoy Doss
Troy Day God dealt with me on My sermon this Morning. We did not Shut down.
Varnel Watson
JameyJoy Doss Did yall do any special accommodations of how ppl sat ? Many did drive by service
JameyJoy Doss
Troy Day we had Social Distancing in Service and Hand Sanitzer our.
Varnel Watson
JameyJoy Doss seems very reasonable and about the safest way to do it Did yall have governor order in your state?
JameyJoy Doss
Troy Day GA
CW Sellers
Troy Day, pastors closed their own churches, some stayed open. It’s man fearing government and not God that is the problem!
Md Sanders
So how about using a little less judgement and a little spiritual understanding one would be to know is a building is just that a building the church is the people I agree with Trump’s call for closing gathering places I know people will say you got to have faith like Daniel in the Lions den but I have yet to see that kind of faith I our church buildings of to day think about this Job was stricken with sickness and many other things he was asked to cures God and die but he refused and lived and everything he lost regained and more ask your self this would you pick up a rattle snake and pet it I won’t would you walk into a river of starving Crocks I wouldn’t if you would that’s you but I will not temp God not only that in like the Crocks or the rattle snake this virus you can not see I hope that all who are against Trump heed to this you grow in faith to ask a newbie or people that’s faith is not as strong as Job might not make it and I would not want to be a stumbling block and say go to service when I know that it could be possible to get the virus so for me until this is over I will use good judgement and say I agree to not attend and agree not to judge my president in this matter because if God can use a donkey he most definitely can use my president
Varnel Watson
what title? Md Sanders the whole letter is published
Donald Trump’s Presidency and False Prophecy | Pentecostal Theology
[…] Pentecostal pastors and scholars to President Trump: We call on you to repent! […]
Randy Steed
a. My Brothers and Sisters, we who revere the Scriptures as being inspired by the Holy Spirit seem to forget that we as USA citizens do not live in a Theocracy. As good as it has ever been for anyone in the U.S., we have never lived in a country with God’s Word the Scriptures as our sole Constitution and God’s Word purely as our Code of Law. (Some of your Opinions seem to show that you may be overlooking that reality.) I am resisting at this moment to elaborate on these facts because I don’t have enough hours to write everything that comes to mind. Some citizens and elected leaders have evidently trusted in “a Higher Power” or they claimed saving faith in Christ in some way. Regardless, they were not SOMEHOW sinless, as some of us seem to think they should have been. Objective observations show ALL that to be true. NOTICEABLY, the freedom of religion that is enshrined in the legal system of our Constitutional Republic doesn’t even ALLOW for our country to be a total Theocracy. For example, Israel was a Theocracy before they insisted that GOD, their Theocratic LORD (funny how that worked) give them a king like other nations. At that point forward, their free choice, free of God’s wisdom, would haunt their lives. Similar to Israel’s dilemma, MY FRIENDS AND NEIGHBORS, no President or leader or national servant has ever been all we wanted them to be. None of them have been able to be Godfully perfect – even if they themselves wanted to be. SOME had very good DIRECTION, but none had PERFECTION by God’s righteous measurements. … So, my friends, if any of you have the credentials TO CAST THE FIRST STONE of condemnation … please produce those credentials and run for Office – and get prepared to be crucified ANYWAY by the rest of us!!!
b. In personal experiences, I’ve had many discussions with non-believers and with church-raised folks who now have a bitter taste in their mouths given to them by regular church-goers who display a severe lack of evident love for Christ and each other in their lives. Honest and alert Professing Followers of Christ, as well, must confess with the apostle Paul: “I find then the law, that, to me, while I desire to do good, evil is present” Romans 7:21. Very few church-influenced folks seem to keep the notion up front in our hearts of Christ’s desire that we should all lovingly want others to experience repentance and cleansing grace when we decide to pounce upon them in judgemental condemnation!! My heart GRIEVES when I recall certain Brothers and Sisters whose lives have been upside-down for decades because of the Spirit-poor, Bible-hard judgements they have endured from self-exhalted Believers (not Followers) who themselves need some help cleaning their spiritual mirrors so they can see the LOGs in their own eyes.
c. My friends, WE, ‘dear LORD,’ are “standing in need of prayer” – as the old song says.
d. Trying to read this long string of Comments, noticing the ‘out of context’ bashings going back and forth, re-convinces me that non-believers and injured Believers have very valid reasons for avoiding church-going people!! Praise to Him, the LORD has given me words of encouragement for some of them to ponder. For example, Jesus didn’t treat them harshly or without loving consideration – human sinners in need of grace and repentance did that!!!!! Jesus loves them and is not on a mission to condemn them!!!
e. There are so many New Testament Scripture instructions teaching us Christ’s way for helping wayward Believers to return to submission to His Lordship, starting with Matthew 18:15-17 with Jesus’ plan to reconcile spiritual ‘brothers.’ Obviously this way of Christ has been seriously overlooked! And the Holy Spirit has numerous other New Testament teachings on the heart, mind and way of Christ to love believers back into following Him.
f. By the way, Matthew 18 would be a good refreshing read for us. Which ones of you theologians, etal, who posted this letter, actually requested a face-to-face bold meeting with the sitting President, took witnesses with you, then “took” him before the Church (any Church) when he would not concede to your opinions? Jesus said it. Even if you considered the President a non-believer, similar accountability attempts with grace in mind would have gotten his attention and earned his respect for your LORD!
Donald Trump’s Presidency and False Prophecy
This Article was mentioned on pentecostaltheology.com
Anonymous
so now you think he is saved? Link Hudson William DeArteaga
Anonymous
Troy Day No
Anonymous
William DeArteaga how can he be saved? Terry Wiles
Anonymous
Link Hudson Philip Williams William DeArteaga https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/trump-invokes-divine-mandate-in-iowa-solidifying-evangelical-base-ahead-of-2024-election/ar-BB1h6zcg?ocid=msedgntp&pc=U531&cvid=8c6fe88c95f24fbea476f71962c802ff&ei=61
Anonymous
Is everyone who repeats a sinners prayer saved?
Anonymous
good question by Paul Washer https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/paul-washer-sinners-prayer-is-sending-people-to-hell/