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Charles Page | PentecostalTheology.com
Neither baptism nor decisions have to do with regeneration. The will of the Father is the basis of our regeneration.
Peyton Gurley [09/22/2015 7:19 PM]
Bible for this? John 3 explains it pretty well. Being born of the water and Spirit.
Jim Kingsnorth [09/22/2015 7:44 PM]
Wrong Charles! Charles is teaching TULIP!
Francisco Arriola [09/22/2015 8:39 PM]
Charles please elaborate on your enigmatic statement
Derrick Harmon [09/22/2015 8:56 PM]
Our will has to be a part of the process. God does the work in regeneration, but we have to allow God to do the work in our lives. Regeneration does not occur by God forcing it on us or surprising us with it. And the opposite can occur–degeneration– according to Hebrews.
Nick Schultz [09/22/2015 9:02 PM]
1 Peter 3:21–22 (ESV)
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers having been subjected to him.
Derrick Harmon [09/22/2015 9:06 PM]
My understanding of this verse is linked back to the baptism of the Children of Israel through the Red Sea. God led them to it, and through it. It was an outward sign of deliverance and salvation, but also a new direction for the children of Israel.
Peyton Gurley [09/22/2015 9:11 PM]
How is it outward when God does the work inside? So if someone gets baptized in private is it null and void? It’s funny that people think that an outward show in baptism is acceptable but an outward sign of holiness and modesty is legalism. And Derrick Harmon, he specifically mentions Noah and says nothing about the children of Israel. Why add to it. It says verbatim that baptism saves you. Saves you how? Obedience to Christ. Also, Jesus did commission the Apostles to baptize everyone (Matthew 28:19). And Peter also instructed to be baptized to be converted (Acts 2:37-39). When He commissioned them He didn’t say “just preach the gospel” He said to baptize everyone in the Name. And Peter said every single person had to be baptized. They were convicted at Peters sermon, then asked what to do. Then he told them to repent and be baptized in Jesus Name.
Nick Schultz [09/22/2015 9:36 PM]
I’d careful tacking obedience to this text. It isn’t the obedience of the person that saves, it is through the power and authority of Jesus through the resurrection.
Francisco Arriola [09/22/2015 9:42 PM]
thanks to all of you for clarifying such a complex subject. so enlightening
Peyton Gurley [09/23/2015 10:24 AM]
I’m not careful to do that. Because it’s Scripture. Everything isn’t a mystery with God. You guys make everything this big complex mystery and it’s weird.
Charles Page [09/23/2015 10:53 AM]
Everything isn’t a mystery with God. You guys make everything this big complex mystery and it’s weird.
Brody Pope [09/23/2015 1:09 PM]
Nick Schultz [09/23/2015 1:14 PM]
It is not big or complex. Justification by grace through faith. Not obedience. The OP said baptism has nothing to do with regeneration. Peter disagrees.
Peyton Gurley [09/23/2015 1:17 PM]
I hope I’m not the OP. Because John 3 shows baptism is regeneration.
Nick Schultz [09/23/2015 1:18 PM]
OP=original post… 🙂
Peyton Gurley [09/23/2015 1:18 PM]
Oh ok lol. OP also is Oneness Pentecostal
Nick Schultz [09/23/2015 1:20 PM]
haha, that hurt my side. Talk about a whole other can of worms…
Peyton Gurley [09/23/2015 1:22 PM]
Well I am OP
Nick Schultz [09/23/2015 1:25 PM]
“Whole other can of worms” – read “different topic”
Peyton Gurley [09/23/2015 1:26 PM]
Lol ok
Brody Pope [09/23/2015 1:38 PM]
I tend to lean more towards regeneration is a work of the spirit that is within you after you ask Jesus to save you. Or what I like to call, the spirit of regeneration.
Peyton Gurley [09/23/2015 1:40 PM]
Regeneration is also coined as born again or new birth. Which would be John 3. Now, most people don’t believe that is talking about baptism but I do. It goes with Jesus theme. Like Matthew 28:19. Acts 2:38. Anyone who believes and is baptized is saved. Anyone who believes not is damned.
Jon Ray
good points @Peyton gurley and Brody Pope – the rest is legalism
Brody Pope
Peyton Gurley
Brody Pope
This was a while ago lol
Vernon Soles
The decision that an individual makes to accept Jesus as Gods son, and is saved from that decision will go on to be baptized. Being baptized is an outward show of the saving grace of an inward work by Gods grace.
Vernon Soles
Vernon Soles liked this on Facebook.
David Lavoie
2 Cor. 5:16&17 explain it as seeing Christ for who He Really is.
Notice the “Therefore” at the Begining of verse 17?..
David Lavoie
That dosnt preclude faith and Repentance of course – just allows it!
Jon Ray
Repentance and faith precede regeneration. They cannot be defined by original sin (or any sin of that matter). The human will is to be viewed as one of the causes of regeneration which is post-salvific. Hence the need for sanctiication! As long as one lives one may fall away from grace and lose salvation altogether.
Charles Page
Regeneration precedes faith and repentance
It occurs because of the Wil of God and not man
David Lavoie
Charles Page,
respectfully, but
isnt that fatalism?
Fatalistic?
I mean if man is actually induced into salvation instead of simply offered, then why all the rigormirol of apostolic injunction and severewarnings and near high pleadings with man even at times to even “save yourselves” from this perverse generation (Peter at pentecost) for example ot many of the other adomitions of the Lord from scripture to believe.
I.e. “if anyone wills To Do My will he shall know of the teaching whether I speak of God or of myself”.
Were those just trappings, accoutrements to the verbage directed towards the men that were preprogramed to inevitably believe and act on it without any of their sterness being valid, or theit severity and intensity real?
I ask cause it seems like every person who so pleaded would have to have been woefully malinformed of the exactness of God perogitive to act apart from laying charge to men in holy reverence and fear such incicive actions of will, as to lay a majority of the great soul winnning and warning texts as mute.
At least to me….
Perhaps certain theologions are able to so render the platform of then current understandings as the men so mentioned as incomplete and needing a fuller comprehension of God’s soveriegnity, but I can’t. It seems God in His Soverignity acts and convicts to present us with personal choice.
Charlie Robin
If Regeneration indeed precedes faith we will have to admit infant baptism and I dont think we are about to do that in Pentecostalism anytime soon
Charles Page
that is baptismal regeneration and it is close to COG belief in regeneration. Catholic believe in baptismal regeneration and COG hold to decisional regeneration . The two are closely kin. Both are semi-Pelagian beliefs.
Stan Wayne
How long do we have to suffer the stupid effects of Calvin (a 23 year old!!!)
Michael Marquez
Stan Wayne as long as people keep believing it. But you don’t have to let it bother you. I for one could care less about John Calvin and his theology. Don’t favor people like him who murder people in the name of Christ.
On another note. Baptismal Regeneration is also held by the Church of Christ (Campbellism) and the modern day Oneness movement (not the original Oneness pioneers and believers). That’s one of the things that makes these two groups a cult. They deny salvation by grace through faith.
Charlie Robin
The Regeneration dilemma has been one separating vividly Penteostalism with Charismatics. Charles Page has proved that one cannot believe/practice infant baptism and classic Pentecostal regeneration / sanctification / renewal #CalvinRests
Stan Wayne
Not related except that the recovery of biblical practice is on a time continuum – Luther 1517, Anabaptists 1530, Holiness 1750, Rapture 1800, Pemtecost 1900 etc
Charlie Robin
Except pre-trib rapture was taught as early as 3 AD
Stan Wayne
Not 3 AD but yes in 1 Thess but it was recovered from Catholicism around 1800
Charles Page
Anabaptist were opposed to Luther
Stan Wayne
Either new recovery was often resisted by the previous recovery
Stan Wayne
We still aren’t done
Charlie Robin
St. Ephraim of Edessa, the Syrian attended the Council of Nicea in 325 AD, accompanying his bishop, James of Nisibis. Grant Jeffrey has found an ancient citation from a sermon ascribed to Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation – – – Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century. This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:
“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”
Stan Wayne
Nice
Charlie Robin
In short, the objection is that rather than being a real part of the Bible, the entire idea of a pre-Great Tribulational Rapture was just an invention by Darby and “not even heretics” ever used it. This is very strong language, but is it true? Were there no ancient Christian writings about the church being Raptured before Great Tribulation? An examination of early church writings shows that this charge is false and there were some church fathers who indeed wrote about the Rapture. Clement of Rome (30-100) spoke about the Rapture in his First Epistle to the Corinthians…
Charles Page
You put a lot of trust in the reliability of historians
Stan Wayne
1 Th 4 and 1 C 15 are the primary source
Charles Page
do you believe that 2nd and 3rd century church correctly interpreted Pauline theology?
Charlie Robin
At all probability but irrelevant – they still well remembered what Jesus has said…
Charles Page
do you remember what someone said 250 years ago?
Charlie Robin
Not really 250 now is it? We have John well remembered by Polycarp and so on. These are all secondary to Jesus sources in 2AD not as remote in time as we can imagine today in times and tradition that was strong but not overloaded with information as we are today. What else were 2nd century believers to remember except the Words of Christ?
Charles Page
Look at how soon the Galatianshad twisted the gospel.
Charlie Robin
You’re right. They had a lot of help there Gal 3