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#IHOP-KC has moved to a post-trib eschatology
Finally able to locate in my notes collections, the handout from #IHOP-KC and confirm what Peter A Vandever was talking about their move toward post-trib eschatology Rick Wadholm Jr
Peter A Vandever [09/29/2015 1:17 PM]
Mike has been post trib since the 80s
John Kissinger [09/29/2015 1:19 PM]
well this hand-out was created no earlier than 2009-10 as far as I can tell from my dating (not absolutely sure, but it aint the 80s)
Peter A Vandever [09/29/2015 1:21 PM]
He got really radical about it in the 2003-2004 window…why i left
John Kissinger [09/29/2015 1:22 PM]
Byron Benefield [09/29/2015 1:23 PM]
Jesus was post-trib. 🙂
John Kissinger [09/29/2015 1:24 PM]
The Prophetic History is 10 hours of stories about supernatural visions, experiences, and prophetic words that were given to Mike Bickle from a number of prophets back in the 1980’s. Peter A
Link Hudson [09/29/2015 1:42 PM]
Good. It sounds like someone has been reading their Bible. II Thessalonians 1 has the church receiving rest while Jesus comes back and executes wrath on them that believe not. There are so many pre-trib arguments that rely on allegorical interpretation and assuming pre-trib into the passages.
Peter A Vandever, did you know Scott Martin or Robert Nelms in Kansas City?
Peter A Vandever [09/29/2015 1:49 PM]
Scott Martin? British guy?
Peter A Vandever [09/29/2015 1:50 PM]
Mike is wrong. There will be a Pre-Trib rapture…. Perry Stone told me so 🙂
Terry Wiles [09/29/2015 1:51 PM]
Lol. They, Bickel and others, were students when Wagner and Wimber were experimenting with signs and wonders. They are a product of the subjective thus they turn in the wind.
Link Hudson [09/29/2015 1:51 PM]
Peter A Vandever, Scott Martin an American guy, at the time probably really excited enthusiastic kind of guy, though he came back to visit a little toned down, a little fatter, smoking a cigarrette and talking about grace. He was a new believer who prayed in tongues several hours a day when he went out there. In his 20’s. But that was early to mid-1990’s. The prophetic history was what… 1980s?
Peter A Vandever [09/29/2015 1:53 PM]
I am not sure. My mom might remember him. We only visited KC alot. We was in the military at the time stationed here.
Link Hudson [09/29/2015 1:55 PM]
Peter A Vandever, no he was in his 20’s, and felt led to drop out of college and then believed he was lead to to to Kansas City ‘for some training’ he said. I think I’ve got him as a facebook friend, btw.
Peter A Vandever [09/29/2015 1:57 PM]
God lead many people to Kansas City. Not everyone was against the Presence of God 🙂
Terry Wiles [09/29/2015 1:59 PM]
The spirit of God, man, and evil are all penuma. It is important to be discerning about which (S)spirit.
Link Hudson [09/29/2015 2:56 PM]
Peter A Vandever, go back and read my comments. I did not say that I was ‘against Toronto.’ I never went there. I can’t say God didn’t do a work in people’s lives there. But in the cell group I was in, the flow of gifts of the Spirit (at least in prophetic prayer) seemed to die down as people started just praying ‘fire, fire, fire’ and ‘more, more, more’ and shaking. There also seemed to be this idea that if you questioned anything, you were likely going against God, saying that he offends the mind to reveal the heart. If you think about it, that’s a recipe for emotionalism and maye even other influences.
I also saw a couple of guys from North America, one of them kept doing some sort of pelvic thrust thing and I’m not sure if the other guy was on his first, second, or third wife at the time (I hear it’s three now) who kept talking about a great revival– and you might do this weird thing, or that weird thing. They were trying to talk the Indonesian congregation into accepting weird spastic movements and other stuff.
The Bible says, ‘let all things be done unto edifying’ and ‘the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets’. Don’t you see a problem with church meetings being filled up with people doing weird spastic stuff and yelling stuff out that doesn’t edify others, especially if it is drowning out the operation of gifts that do edify?
If someone is going to scream ‘Ho!’ in church, can others understand and be edified? Does it mean that t whole church is fake and needs to repent and stop being a ‘ho’? Is one person there a ‘ho’ and needs to repent? Are we supposed to spiritually hoe the garden (or Vineyard?) If there is no interpretati, how is it to edify? If the there is no interprter, the speaker in tongues is to keep silent in the church and let him speak to himself and to God, according to the commandmentf the Lord. The man who considers himself a prophet or spiritual should recognize the commandments of the Lord.
Peter A Vandever [09/29/2015 2:58 PM]
cell groups are unbiblical 🙂
Link Hudson [09/29/2015 2:59 PM]
It was actually a church plant that met in a house. I misspoke. Do you really believe that or are you teasing me?
Peter A Vandever [09/29/2015 3:00 PM]
I really believe that but also giving you a hard time. 🙂 I dont care if they bark like dogs, roar like loins or yell ho, lo, and then bam….. if they get up and heal the sick, raise the dead, and cast out devils 🙂
Peyton Gurley [09/29/2015 3:02 PM]
I’ve heard a lot of bad about IHOP. But I have a question. If we are His bride, why would He beat us up before we go to Him?
Charles Page [09/29/2015 3:03 PM]
Post trib is still dispensationalism and pre-mil.
So do they believe we are in the tribulation? The return of Christ must take place within the next several years or are we to get ready for a tribulation yet to come.
They should affirm an A-mil view.
Peyton Gurley [09/29/2015 3:05 PM]
What is premil and amil
Charles Page [09/29/2015 3:08 PM]
eschatology 101
Peyton Gurley [09/29/2015 3:10 PM]
Oh yeah. I forget you’re to proud to teach.
Peter A Vandever [09/29/2015 3:11 PM]
AMil…. believes there is no rapture…. Methodlst teach this.
Charlie Robin
The Prophetic History is 10 hours of stories about supernatural visions, experiences, and prophetic words that were given to Mike Bickle from a number of prophets back in the 1980’s. Bickel and others, were students when Wagner and Wimber were experimenting with signs and wonders. They are a product of the subjective thus they turn in the wind. So do they believe we are in the tribulation? The return of Christ must take place within the next several years or are we to get ready for a tribulation yet to come
Terry Wiles
Does this surprise anyone? When one deals with the subjective and sets oneself as a New apostle the natural belief system is more Romanist than Protestant. Thus, Christ cannot return until “The Church ” make the world ready for Him. The Lord Himself will come and that “Church” will be weighed and found wanting.
Charlie Robin
Cant wait for Hillsong to state their complete plan of a clear eschatologcal position…
Judye Maxwell Rasmussen
From my research…cult
Dan Irving
I’m no expert on IHOP eschatology, but this adjustment may be in order to bring them in line with most NAR/New Prophetic organizations, who use the frailties of Dispensationalism as a Strawman in order to advance the eschatology of Peterism, that is required for Seven Mountains Dominionism.
Varnel Watson
Thank you very much Dan Irving Right on the money Pls see my discussion with Peter A Vandever This is exactly why this move – part of #NAR http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/mike-bickle-of-ihop-just-endorsed-ted-cruz/
Dan Irving
Convenient Reverse-Engineering of God’s Word.
Varnel Watson
What else is left when the power is gone, except to cover it with a man made veil?
Terry Wiles
Oh my. And it is so late in the day.
Joshua Peter Phillips
I think they have always had that approach.
Varnel Watson
not really They were pre Trib till about 5 yrs ago Then they changed to post trib to they can endorse the TX candidate in the last elections who was backed by NAR – their move has influenced a number of other churches especially as to the Kansas and Tulsa areas
Varnel Watson
Philip Williams the Trump 2020 post-mil kingdom-now mania increases Nelson Banuchi as Evangelical Free Church of America stepped back from its premillennial convictions. https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/august-web-only/premillennialism-evangelical-free-church-efca-end-times.html?fbclid=IwAR3Yx-b2j3JnDrsGKHZpiyQ4yizrMKbFrl0fegCXXhz65NHWTFRPqjJL_8Y
Varnel Watson
#there https://www.charismanews.com/politics/76578-how-the-conservative-agenda-is-being-born-again-through-mike-pence?fbclid=IwAR13g_G2CplKLGx1Vp0CRqdq6cL10SEh4yJn5dHbmbs-PQSLmgPvKgagK50
Varnel Watson
iHOP actually went straight NAR IMO Philip Williams and all this just to support their NAR candidate who did not even win Oh well
Anonymous
Yes, IHOP has had theological problems for years, but then, that is common for the false Charismatic Movement, tossing to and fro by every wind of doctrine.
Do not be deceived by “victorious eschatology,” Amil, Post Mil, Kingdom now, etc.
Biblical eschatology is exclusively Premillennial.
No allegorizing.
No spiritualizing.
No replacement theology.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess been tryin to tell Peter Vandever Ben Bottke and somewhat Philip Williams who bid bethel ihop alike cults
Anonymous
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dictators-at-who-aim-to-begin-installing-a-one-world-government/
Anonymous
it is hard to follow what Link Hudson said about pos-trib because he seems upset now with them – is this information of yours current or is it just heresay heresy or what? Does this mean he approves of the whole praxis @ ihopKC or just post-mil What about the approval of NAR leadership with Ted Cruse
Here is MY take on it – #IHOP-KC has moved to a post-trib eschatology
Finally able to locate in my notes collections, the handout from #IHOP-KC and confirm what Peter A Vandever was talking about their move toward post-trib eschatology Rick Wadholm Jr
#IHOP-KC has moved to a post-trib eschatology Finally able to locate in my notes collections, the handout from #IHOP-KC and confirm what Peter A Vandever was talking about their move toward post-trib eschatology Rick Wadholm Jr https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/mike-bickle-of-ihop-just-endorsed-ted-cruz/
Anonymous
Troy Day why would you think I was upset with IHOP? I cannot think of anything critical and haven’t given an opinion on recent developments
Anonymous
Link Hudson not you but Peter Vandever referred to the discussion on indorsing Ted I found a few hours ago
Anonymous
Troy Day How could someone reading your post think ‘he’ referred to Peter Vandever rather then me?
Anonymous
Link Hudson not sure how you read and what
but we did have a convo when he endorsed NAR’s Ted as seen here and even Terry Wiles said : “” [01/23/2016 1:51 PM]
Now this is one negative article.”
which we today know to be TRUE
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/mike-bickle-of-ihop-just-endorsed-ted-cruz/
Anonymous
Oscar Valdez Dispensations in the Bible as we discussed months ago based on the following work by James Morris
Dispensationalism is simply the doctrine that God interacts with mankind in different ways at different times. Detractors of this doctrine see it as God “trying” different things. But that is not the doctrine at all. Rather than imagining that God is “trying” different things, Dispensationalists realize that God is running a series of tests. But these are not tests in the sense of finding out what will happen. Instead, this series of tests is designed to demonstrate what God already knew, that mankind will fail under any conceivable circumstance.
God’s first test of mankind was to leave him innocent, without any knowledge of good or evil. For “they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.” (Genesis 2:25) In this test, God gave mankind only one law. “Of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat.” (Genesis 2:17)
God warned them of the result of breaking this one law, that they would surely die. But they broke that one law, because they chose to believe Satan’s lie that God did not have their own best interests in mind. This brought about the first change in God’s dealings. “And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked.” (Genesis 3:7) Here is a distinct change, a condition that had not existed before. They were naked before, but so what? That was just what they looked like. But now they knew that they were naked.
This dispensation, though short, ended with mankind being sent out of the garden of Eden, where everything for which they could wish had been provided for them. But now they had to work for a living.
After expelling mankind from the garden, God left them more or less up to their own devices, with no guide (at least, with no guide that is recorded in the scriptures) except their consciences. And what was the result of this test? “And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.” (Genesis 6:5) “The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence.” (Genesis 6:11) So God sent the great flood, destroying all of mankind except Noah and his family.
So even as the first dispensation had ended with “a flaming sword which turned every way,” (Genesis 3:24) keeping mankind out of the garden, this one ended with all of mankind except one family being put to death.
After the flood, God made a new law, something that had not existed before. He said, “Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.
“Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God He made man.” (Genesis 9:5-6)
This was again a change, something that had not existed before. And mankind went out, and began to establish kingdoms. And they began to rebel against God, building a tower to reach his heaven. (Of course, God knew, as we do today, that this would not work. But they did not know that.) Up to this time “the whole earth had one language, and one speech.” (Genesis 11:1) But “the LORD confused the language of all the earth; and from there the LORD scattered them abroad over the face of all the earth.” (Genesis 11:9)
So this dispensation, in which God first held man responsible to administer justice, ended with their single language confounded, so they were scattered abroad upon the face of the earth.
After this, God “said to Abram:
‘Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation; (Genesis 12:1-3)
This, again, was something new. Something that God had never done before. He took a single man and gave him a great promise. Later on, He expanded that promise, saying, “Lift your eyes now and look from the place where you are–northward, southward, eastward, and westward; for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever. And I will make your descendants as the dust of the earth; so that if a man could number the dust of the earth, then your descendants also could be numbered.” (Genesis 13:14-16) Later, He clarified this, “saying: ‘To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates:’ ” (Genesis 15:18-21) And “He said to Abram: ‘Know certainly that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, and will serve them, and they will afflict them four hundred years. And also the nation whom they serve I will judge; afterward they shall come out with great possessions.” (Genesis 15:13-14) Abraham’s descendants forgot the promises and descended into the hopelessness of slavery, so hopeless that when God sent “Moses and Aaron” to deliver them, they said to them, “Let the LORD look on you and judge, because you have made us abhorrent in the sight of Pharaoh and in the sight of his servants, to put a sword in their hand to kill us.” (Exodus 5:21)
So this dispensation ended with the promise forgotten, and even the hope of deliverance scorned.
But God indeed brought them out, and gave them a long and detailed law, with promises of blessing for those who kept it and curses for those who did not. This, again, was something God had never done before. It was new and different. But none of them kept this law. And they finally nailed the only one who ever kept it to a tree.
So this dispensation ended with the only truly righteous man who ever lived, hanging on a tree.
When Jesus died, God offered salvation to whoever would believe in Him. This was something God had never done before. Scripture calls this “the dispensation of the grace of God.” (Ephesians 3:2) But scripture also tells us how this dispensation will end, saying “evil men and impostors will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived.” (2 Timothy 3:13) And Jesus himself asked the rhetorical question “when the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth?” (Luke 18:8) The answer, from other scriptures, is plainly, no. For we are told, “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) And “The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (2 Thessalonians 2:9-12)
So we are explicitly told that this dispensation will end with a punitive blindness imposed by God because men “did not love the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” (Ezekiel 43:18) https://www.amazon.com/Ancient-Dispensational-Truth-Refuting-Dispensationalism/dp/1945774290/
Anonymous
I further discussed this under this post month ago stating the following :
Link Hudson Oscar Valdez our dear brother James C. Morris has written a FINE book answering many of your questions – just a brief quote here J.D. King would want to consider as well
Two Comings and Two Gatherings to Two Places
Some have very incorrectly called the doctrine of the rapture a “theory.” It is not a theory, but an explicitly stated doctrine of scripture. For it is clearly stated in two scriptures.
The first place where we find it in the Bible is:
“Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed– in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: ‘Death is swallowed up in victory.’ ” (1 Corinthians 15:51-54)
And the second place is:
“But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)
As a side note, we should mention here that the words “caught up” in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 are a translation of a form of the Greek word ἁρπἁζω, which is harapzo in our alphabet. The Latin translation of this Greek word, as given in the Vulgate text, is “rapiemur.” And the English word “rapture” is derived from this Latin word. So, even though the word “rapture” does not occur in any English translation of the Bible, yet it is indeed a scriptural term.
We need to notice that these two scriptures plainly state that there will be a time when the Lord will come and at that time the dead in Christ will rise first, and then we which are still alive will be “caught up” “together with them in the clouds,” to be with our Lord forever. But now we must ask, where will we be taken to be with Him? This is not left to our imagination. For Jesus said:
‘Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” (John 14:1-3)
Here, our Lord plainly said where He was going. It was to “My Father’s house.” And He told us why He was going there. It was “to prepare a place for you.” So the place He was preparing for us was in “My Father’s house.” And He said “I will come again and receive you to Myself.” But why will he do this? “That where I am, there you may be also.” But where was He going? To “My father’s house.” So “My Father’s house” is the place where He will take us.
This is again plainly shown by the fact that in Matthew 25, in the parable of the wise and foolish virgins, “while” the foolish virgins “went to buy,” oil for their lamps, “the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.” (Matthew 25:10) Where did the wise virgins go? They “went in with him to the wedding.” And where will “the wedding” take place? In Revelation 19:7-9, “the marriage of the Lamb” takes place in heaven, just before the Lord goes forth from heaven as the “KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS,” to punish the world for its wickedness in Revelation 19:11-21.
But there is another coming of Christ, with another gathering, described in other scriptures. We find this other coming clearly described as taking place after “the marriage of the Lamb” in Luke 12:35-37, where we read, “Let your waist be girded and your lamps burning; and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them.” As this scripture very clearly says that the coming described here will be “when” the “master” “will return from the wedding,” this clearly has to take place after “those who were ready went in with him to the wedding.”(Matthew 25:10) So ths is unquestionably a different coming. And this different coming involves a different gathering, which will be to a different place. We find this coming and gathering described in the last chapter of Isaiah, along with the location to which the people will be gathered.
“ ‘For behold, the LORD will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
For by fire and by His sword
The LORD will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the LORD shall be many.
‘Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves,
To go to the gardens
After an idol in the midst,
Eating swine’s flesh and the abomination and the mouse,
Shall be consumed together,’ says the LORD.
‘For I know their works and their thoughts. It shall be that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come and see My glory. I will set a sign among them; and those among them who escape I will send to the nations: to Tarshish and Pul and Lud, who draw the bow, and Tubal and Javan, to the coastlands afar off who have not heard My fame nor seen My glory. And they shall declare My glory among the Gentiles. Then they shall bring all your brethren for an offering to the LORD out of all nations, on horses and in chariots and in litters, on mules and on camels, to My holy mountain Jerusalem,” says the LORD, “as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. And I will also take some of them for priests and Levites,’ says the LORD.” (Isaiah 66:15-21)
Here, there is no mention of anyone rising from the dead, or of anyone being “caught up.” Instead, there is mass killing, and people being gathered, not to “My Father’s house,” but “to my holy mountain Jerusalem.”
We see this again in the words of the prophet Jeremiah:
“ ‘Therefore behold, the days are coming,’ says the LORD, ‘that it shall no more be said, “The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of Egypt,” but, “The LORD lives who brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north and from all the lands where He had driven them.” For I will bring them back into their land which I gave to their fathers.
‘Behold, I will send for many fishermen,’ says the LORD, ‘and they shall fish them; and afterward I will send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain and every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. For My eyes are on all their ways; they are not hidden from My face, nor is their iniquity hidden from My eyes.’ ” (Jeremiah 16:14-17)
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dr-troy-days-quote-irenaeus-on-the-pre-trib-rapture/
Anonymous
Maybe there is too much trib for the word of faith/prosperity group causing them to think this is already mid-trib.
Anonymous
Terry Wiles yes yes their trib has already started Link Hudson Philip Williams