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Donald the Dishonorable: On the Spiritual Damage of the Trump Presidency
Many Christians voted for Trump with high expectations that he would be a great president and bring both economic revival and a renewed sense of Christian nationhood to America (“Make America Great Again”). Some Christians prognosticated that Trump the candidate as a new “Cyrus” who, following the biblical type, would mightily serve the interests of the Kingdom of God without personally being a believer.
Many other Christians voted for him out of fear that a Clinton administration would proceed into the continued Paganization of America. For example, the continued advance of the LGBT agenda and ever increasing discrimination against Christians. Fear of a liberal dominated Supreme court weighed heavily on many as they poked the electronic voting machine for Trump.
In my experience (I am 76) it was the worse election choice in my lifetime. The unpalatable choice was partially ushered in by the spiritual decline of the Republican party in the last two decades via its acceptance by many party followers of an extreme form of libertarian doctrine advocated by Ayn Rand. The Tea Party, which made an idol of no compromise on taxes,was the locus of this extremism.[1]
It may well be that Trump will put a stop to America’ slide into Paganism and anti-Christian discrimination, and fulfill the “Cyrus” role. Certainly his choice of Betsy DeVos as head of the Department of Education broods well for concerned Christian parents. She strongly affirms a pro-choice solution for public education and voucher plans. The possibility is that ultimately many Christian parents, who now cannot afford it, could move their children from the secularist and Pagan environment of the public schools to private Christian schools. Trumps first choice for a supreme court justice, Niel Gorsuch, to replace Anthony Scalea also seems prudent and constructive.
Other cabinate appointments seem to be less than constructive, especially Scott Prutt to the environmental protection agency. That appointment has pleased only the extreme wing of the Republican Party and climate change deniers – and it will likely look foolish and even disastrous in the coming years.
Trumps actions and pronouncement, including his dystrophic inaugural address (and his tweets) seem to have generated a pall of depression and negativity throughout the land. As a long time Republican I was appalled at how his “America first” stand marginalized the heroic achievements of the veterans of the Cold War where over 100,000 American soldiers died to further the interest of freedom for America and other countries.[2]
President Kennedy’s inaugural address
All in all, the first months of the Trump administration have been a spiritual calamity. Trumps boasting, exaggerations, lies and “alternate truths” have shocked most Americans.
Trump has shown himself to be a man with great pride and without a true sense of honor. Even traditionally Republican journals are now sounding the alarm that something is deeply troubling with Trump. The National Review counseled that he must stop telling lies.[3] And a recent editorial by the Wall Street Journal warned that Trump’s continued boasting, exaggerations and lies put the nation as risk if an international crisis were to arise, as few would believe him.[4]
The fool of Proverbs:
Rather than elect a Cyrus to rebuild American Christianity we seemed to have elected as president the “fool” of Proverbs, a person intemperate in speech and not subject to correction.
The righteous hate what is false,
but the wicked make themselves a stench
and bring shame on themselves. (Prov 13:5)
The tongue of the wise adorns knowledge,
but the mouth of the fool gushes folly. (Prov 15:2)
Fools find no pleasure in understanding
but delight in airing their own opinions. Prov 18:2
As a business executive Trump had a strategy of never admitting to a mistake. This was passed on to him early in his business career by one of his mentors, Roy Cohn, the lawyer famous from the McCarthy hearing.[5] This may work in the rough and tumble real estate business, where law suits are omnipresent, and admitting guilt is monetary suicide, but it is a deep spiritual flaw.
Most of us had hoped that the office of the presidency would bring moderation and temperance to President Trump. But so far we have been disappointed:
Item: Trump’s claim that the crowd at his inauguration was the biggest ever, and beat that size of the Obama’s first inaugural. Photos show to the contrary, but no retraction was forthcoming.
Item: Trump claimed during the election campaign that he would release his tax returns as soon as an audit of them was complete. But now he says he will not release them because “only the press” had interest in them. Actually, many Christians are interested in knowing if he is serious about charitable contributions in view of his vast wealth (whatever that figure is). The 2005 tax returns were leaked showing that Trump indeed paid his fair share of taxes to the Government, but what of the recent returns? His negation of his pledge to do what he promised is dishonorable.
Item: Perhaps the most grievous and dishonorable of his claims is that he really won the popular vote because there were 2 or 3 million illegal votes for Clinton. Now, every election has a certain amount of fraudulent voting, but that number has greatly decreased in recent decades. I recall (I am older than you, – I bet) that Republicans claimed that J. F. Kennedy “stole” the 1959 election from Nixon because the Democratic machine in Chicago had brought out every long-dead citizen and their grandmothers to the polling stations, and thus fraudulently won the state of Illinois. Some election fraud had indeed taken place – the Chicago Dealy Democratic machine was good at that. Ultimately however, that did not change the legitimacy of the election as California shifted from the Nixon to Kennedy column when the overseas absentee votes were fully counted and put Kennedy over the required electoral count.
In my state, Georgia, in the current election, the Republican secretary of state strongly affirmed that the voter count was true and that there was no fraud. In fact, later it was discovered that a few Hispanic votes were denied the vote due to faulty instructions to the poll personnel. That would have increased the Clinton vote by a dozen or so.
Apparently, one of Trump’s advisors told him that at his polling station many on line “did not look American.” What? Who has not noticed the great demographic shift in the American population in the past decades? In any case, Trump’s whopper is an insult to the secretaries of state of the various states and to the great strides that have occurred in tallying the voter count. His wish/accusation was childishly self-centered, wildly exaggerated, and grossly dishonorable.
Item: Trump claimed during the election campaign that the job statics were false and that there was a much higher unemployment rate in the nation, perhaps reaching 30%. Thus the Obama economic recovery was false. But the job statistics released after his moth in office, showing a lowering of the employment rate were accurate. That is dishonorable.
Item: Trump claimed that the Obama Administration wire-taped the Trump towers during the election. There has been no retraction on that claim in spite tea lack of evidence and denials by the FBI chief. It seems that for Trump suspicion is equivalent to fact., and can be stated as fact.
The meaning of honorable and dishonorable:
Let me unpack the meaning of a person being honorable or dishonorable because it is central to the issue of Trump’s administration. “In times of old” (when I was a boy) much business was still done on the basis of an oral agreement and a handshake. A businessman who went back on his word, and did not fulfill his business agreement was labeled as “dishonorable” and shunned by fellow businessmen as unreliable and an unacceptable risk. That is now only a faint memory, and now business is carried out with elaborate contacts and fine print that only lawyers understand.
The point being that, until recent decades, it was important to be recognized as an honorable person. That is, one who is true to his word, and that he says what he meant, and would carry out a promise (contract) even if the situation changed and it was difficult or expensive to fulfill.
That need of an honorable reputation was even a step-down of earlier 19th Century mores where a rigorous code of honor guided oral and written exchanges between gentlemen. Violations of this code of honor, perceived or real, would often result in a blood duel.[6] The most famous duel in American history, now illuminated by the smash hit play “Hamilton,” was the Hamilton – Burr duel in which Hamilton was mortally wounded. The duel was precipitated by a long standing dispute between the two, and specifically at Hamilton campaign against Burr’s run to be governor of New York. During it Hamilton accused Burr of shady and immoral conduct in a letter that became public.
Now, I am not in any way affirming that honor is a virtue that must be protected by a duel, or even that it is a Christian virtue. It is too close to pride for that. Rather, honor is a necessary civic virtue for persons in public life so that he or she is motivated to be truthful and faithful in their words and would feel shame if they did not fulfill their word to the best of their ability.
Trump’s actions and communications (tweeting and spoken) show great pride but no honor. There is no thoughtful marshaling of his word or tweets to ensure that what he says is true to the best of his ability to know. Nor is there a sincere effort to carry out a promise if it inconveniences him – as in his tax returns.
Trump as model for the youth?
This is a serious moral and spiritual fault. It is already affecting many young people. A Christian family tries to teach the biblical pattern of right and wrong, truth and falsehood to their children and yet the President of the United States blusters, exaggerates and bullshits (sorry, no other word will do).[7] Recall, for instance, his campaign assertion that he knew better than the generals on how to eliminate ISIS (a moment of bullshitting). Later he promised that after elected he would demand from the generals a new plan for rapidly defeating ISIS. The plan turns out to be a lot like the Obama plan. All of that is dishonorable.
I wonder how many thousands of times some conversation like this has occurred in America. “Johny, your teacher informed us that you lied to her yesterday, and we are grounding you this weekend as punishment. But Mom, President Trump does that all the time.”
In my youth I had all honorable presidents, Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy and Johnson. None were saints, and for instance, Kennedy was a womanizer – discretely kept from public view. But in regards to their public actions and speech they were all honorable. Nixon turned out to be the only dishonorable president I recall until Trump.
One good thing that may result from Trump’s exaggerations, bullshitting and lies may be that they highlight and place a mirror to the current sophistries common at liberal institutions of higher learning. That is, that truth is indefinite and socially formed, as in, “My truth is different from your truth.” This is a solipsism, the idea that my mind forms truth without need to reference the outer world. For instance the solipsism of “I am in a body of the wrong sex” is now universally affirmed and unchallenged by large elements of the educational and psychiatric establishments. Why solipsisms are so dangerous I have explained elsewhere.[8]
So perhaps some good will ultimately result is having a grossly dishonorable person in the White House. Two months is too short to affirm that Trump’s election to the presidency was not providential, – the claim of many Evangelical Christians. Thus far it has been a spiritual disaster, but God sometimes works in mysterious ways.
For now, Christian leaders, especially those who publicly supported Trump’s election, should also publicly call him to account. It is time to stop being Trump apologists and start playing the role of Elisha to King Ahab. Most Evangelical pastors will recall how to do that if they remember their sermons during the Clinton and Obama presidency.
In all seriousness, I suggest that Christian pastors petition Trump that he repent of his careless, bullshitting and mendacious talk. He should specifically apologize to the secretaries of the states of the various states for his childish claim that he really won the popular vote, and also to ex-President Obama for his unsubstantiated wire-tap accusation. If this is not done in some manner and by a significant Evangelical group there may be a serious and overt anti-Christian movement by the next election. Many are already saying, “Those stupid Evangelical Christians voted for that man.”
So how shall we pray?
Many Christians are already praying for Trump and the success of his presidency. That is certainly pleasing to God and scriptural. I suggest that added prayers petition God to bring Trump to true repentance and a sincere Christian commitment. In that change Trump would find humility of spirit and temperance of tongue. Further we should all pray that he would be given the grace to esteem honor (and not confuse it with pride), and that by God’s grace Americans and the peoples of the world would recognize a great transformation in him, and this would lead to making America spiritually great again – the very thing that really matters most.
[1] Willim De Arteaga, “The Spiritual Decline and Fall of the Republican Party,” Anglican Pentecostal. Posted: April 6, 2016. http://anglicalpentecostal.blogspot.com/2016/04/the-spiritual-decline-and-fall-of.html
[2] Compare Trumps Inaugural Address with John Kennedy’s in 1960.
[3] Ben Shapiro, “To Promise Free Things is to Lie,” National Review, Mar 22, 2017. http://www.nationalreview.com/article/445967/republicans-trump-should-stop-lying-no-free-health-care-nothing-free
[4] Wall Street Journal, “The President’s Credibility,” March 21, 2017. https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-presidents-credibility-1490138920 I am old enough to remember the Cuban missile crisis of 1962. Not even the staunchest Republicans doubted that President Kennedy was telling the truth about the placement of Russian missiles in Cuba. But who would believe Trump in a similar incident?
[5] Thrush, Glenn and Maggie Habermanmarch, “Why Letting Go, for Trump, Is No Small or Simple Task” Washington Post. Posted March 21, 2017 : https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/21/us/politics/trump-obama-wiretapping-motivation.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0
[6]The U.S military academy at West Point provided its officer candidates with a booklet on dueling for honor.
[7]There are now academic tomes on the meaning of bullshit and how it is a variety, but distinct, from plain lying. See: Harry G. Frankfurt, On Bullshit (Princeton: Princeton University, 2005).
[8]William De Arteaga, “The Demonic Origins and Confusion of the Transgender Issue.” Anglican Pentecostal. Posted, November 1, 2015. http://anglicalpentecostal.blogspot.com/2015/11/the-demonic-origins-and-confusion-of.html
Announcements:
The noted Pentecostal scholar Dr. Jon Ruthven wrote a very positive review of my book, Agnes Sanford and Her Companions: The Assault on Cessationism and the Coming of the Charismatic Renewal. You can access it HERE.
The book may be purchased on Amazon, either print or inexpensive Kindle HERE You can purchase the print version at a discount from the publisher HERE
Just released is my first book of plays. Pentecostal (and Anglican) Plays (and Postscripts). It includes two plays and their postscripts.
The play, “One Day at St. John’s” depicts what everyday life can be like in a church that practices the gifts of the Spirit and the healing/exorcism ministry as normal. Among the events that occur in the course of the play are the healing of a waitress who was scalded with hot coffee, an exorcism (led by a layman) and the “laying of a ghost” to rest.
Pentecostal (and Anglican) Plays (and Postscripts) can be purchased HERE at Amazon.
The second play, “Joseph ben Jacob,” explores Joseph, husband of Mary, as the dream interpreter, master carpenter, and father of Mary’s other children. It helps explain why Joseph was able to discern correctly his dream about Mary’s first-born.
The postscripts examine the controversial aspects of the plays and focus on two false early gospels which distorted the meaning of the true Gospels. The “Proto-Gospel of James” claimed that Mary was “every virgin” and never had other children, and the “Gospel of Nicodemus” cancelled the true meaning of Jesus’ “descent into Hell” and his ministry there as described in 1 Peter 3 & 4
My wife has written a funny and inspiring story of how she transited from a cessionist and Baptist to a Spirit-filled Believer. The book has many stories of our three decades of ministry together. It may be purchased HERE.
Varnel Watson
congrats to William DeArteaga for recovering this essential blog post from his personal archive series And we are now OFF to the races with all CT articles Jim Price Hugh Lowrie Nelson Banuchi Merry Christmas to all … peace on earth among all mankind
Ron Culbreth
Trump is everything negative that has been said about him with the exception of the lower house. I do not believe any law has been broken. What we have to ask ourselves is, would we be better off had Clinton been elected. The people cried, gives us someone who is not like the other politicians in Washington, give us someone who will listen. He did.
Hugh Lowrie
Under the previous administration we saw the number of people identifying religiously as “nones” go up sharply. Will President Trump permanently reverse this trend? Maybe not. But the trend has certainly stalled for the moment.
Under the previous administration racial tension rose sharply. Again, will President Trump initiate a complete permanent reversal of racial tension? Maybe not. But the trend as certainly stalled.
Since the founding of our country, Washington has been known for dishonesty. Will President Trump finally bring honesty and honor to Washington? It is too early to tell. But President Trump has exposed the dishonesty of the media and his critics. And that dishonesty includes those that mascaraed as Christians writing articles calling for President Trump to be impeached based on lack of morality, civility or honor.
It is interesting to note that the Me To movement started under President Trump. This was no accident as it could have never started under a President Clinton. What resulted from the Me To movement is that hundreds of Trump critics have been outed for the same sexual harassment behaviors that they so desperately wanted to accuse President Trump of. The point isn’t that President Trump is void of sin, that he hasn’t sexually harassed women or that he hasn’t ever told a lie. But what the Trump Presidency has done is laid bare the dishonorable hypocrisy of his many critics who are guilty of the sins they so desperately want to pin on President Trump.
Varnel Watson
Jim Price Nelson Banuchi Much has been made of the connections between Donald Trump and King Jehu and many more false prophecies like this one which William DeArteaga will soon debunk in a separate blog post https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GfDpwOwuI4&fbclid=IwAR1rqXk2VDSgM_TTAwrYEttr8smdobbCc_CgrLu5NtKHbpYLOv3hJujgcZs
Varnel Watson
I keep reading about how evangelicals support Trump.
How many of you think he’s great, and he’s your top pick for president?
How many of you held your nose and voted for him because you couldn’t vote for Hillary Clinton and did not want her to win?
How many of you might hold your nose again to keep a pro-baby-murder candidate out of the white house?
Many could not bring themselves to trust in and vote for or support our present Self-Worshipper-in-Chief.
He is neither conservative, nor is he, I would wager, even a one-time reader of the US Constitution. In my view, Trump is the worst thing that has ever happened to the Republicrat Party, from whose lawless influence, they are likely never to recover. I do like his judicial picks. The economy seems strong – seems being the key word here, but why is the Fed pumping so many billions into the system? I’m no economist, but that doesn’t seem like an indicator of robust economic health.
I do however think impeachment is unwise in this case, but then again Democrats are not known for their wisdom. I think it would have been better to let the people decide in 2020 instead of this impeachment charade. I hope Trump resigns and hands things over to Pence, who would be a definite improvement in many ways over “The Donald.” I do not know how impeachment will play out. I followed parts of the testimony and I have not read everything the house gave the senate. But the parts I saw seemed to build the case that he had pressured the Ukrainian leader to publicly announce an investigation of Biden with either US cash or a white house visit seemed to be based on hearsay.
Using a White House meeting as an enticement for a public announcement seems wrong to me. Holding up the money unless the announcement is made publicly seems like something even more over the line. I may be missing some info. That part seemed to be the understanding of some in the State department, but you’d think they’d have to prove that clearly to have a case.
The Dems have been trying to impeach him since before they had anything real on him. This issue entrenches Democrats and Republicans. I am not sure how independents will react.
Pence seems like a good, decent person. I don’t know if he has the debating skill to win a general election. Trump would have to be out of there fast if he wanted to build support. Or the Democrats could just choose someone really awful that swing voters, the independents, will not support who would vote for a kind, decent man and the economy under Trump.
I sure hope the Republican party recovers. It needs a real leader. Reagan was good at giving an ideological vision.
It is all up to the Lord. I know people prophesied that God had a purpose in Trump being president. May the Lord’s will be done. God also had a plan for Nebuchadnezzar, but he probably was not the easiest person to get along with. I’m glad Trump does not have the powers that man had over his subjects.
Nelson Banuchi
I could never vote for Trump nor will I vote for Democrat unless they are pro-life.
Varnel Watson
and they just keep on coming them CT articles
We nevertheless believe the evangelical alliance with this presidency has done damage to our witness here and abroad. The cost has been too high. American evangelicalism is not a Republican PAC. We are a diverse movement that should collaborate with political parties when prudent but always standing apart, at a prophetic distance, to be what Martin Luther King, Jr. called “the conscience of the state.” That is what we believe. This is where we plant our flag. We know we are not alone.
Read it all here.
https://thewayofimprovement.com/2019/12/22/christianity-today-ceo-tim-dalrymple-responds-to-critics/?fbclid=IwAR1PItWBChJ5raAMcx1gIHcl1il7Py4P7xxVy7NwIafzuwCkDWEEBH7C2xg
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day CT has the courage to speak out and it seems everyone else, Trump supporters, that is, want ti censure them.
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi I do not disagree with that though I am still iffy on the intentions behind that I stated before CT is riding the Pentecostal wave promoting holiness in our life and government BUT they – CT – may be JUST one election too late
Varnel Watson
I am quire surprised Nelson Banuchi has not taken a more open stand on the controversial article series by CT I’ve watched William DeArteaga cited CT as no fake news so no need to question them Then some 100 evangelical leaders stood against the CT articles – I already expressed my stance there on the CT politics which seems to be going in a direction away from the gen. editor who has since resigned and will be no more in that position for the 2020 elections 2020 campaign has already began in the churches and most American Evangelicals are NOT happy with TRUMP as their choice for POTUS; when I say most I mean without Ask Dr M Brown who is only happy when he call sell books and blogs on political topics from either way of the wall – for or against Trump; all because he couldnt cut it in the FL revivals and afterwords
and this is a proper statement Joe Absher we;ve watched together M Brown once published and sold a pro Trump book another time had several blog posts warning evangelicals against voting for Trump it’s got to be one of them – cant be both ways like Jim Price has shared with us from his wisdom of his age http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/how-to-interpret-dr-browns-politicostalim/
Joe Absher
Your definition of wisdom is as liberal as your opions
Varnel Watson
Joe Absher which definition of wisdom do you mean?
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day, what can I do further to be more open?
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi be open further? who knows 🙂
Varnel Watson
James P Bowers the alliance of American evangelicalism with this presidency has wrought enormous damage to Christian witness. It has alienated many of our children and grandchildren. It has harmed African American, Hispanic American, and Asian American brothers and sisters. And it has undercut the efforts of countless missionaries who labor in the far fields of the Lord.- – – basically what we’ve been saying for 3-4 yrs in this here group William DeArteaga Jim Price https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2019/december-web-only/trump-evangelicals-editorial-christianity-today-president.html
Varnel Watson
This blog post was recovered by the deleted bloggoer account of dr. William DeArteaga He also wrote this blog after the first few months of Trump’s presidency. It was among the posts removed by Blogger as against “community standards'”. It is pertinent for today
http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/decline-and-fall-of-the-republican-party/
TODAY we received several comments on it by one Benjamin Horvat who stated
to send your political jargon in the name of Penecostal Christianity is poor judgement. I know my Assemblies of God pastor would be very angered by your post….
and also “And a view that represents a skewed theology which in my view is representative of the Holy Spirt….. I don’t care about the author too much. I do care about articles representing a Pentecostal perspective which posts such things. I will pass it along to my friends and they can show their displeasure as well”
So now Pentecostal Theology is an open forum to bash the president? – it is not and this is a very irresponsible assumption by the commentator PentecostalTheology.com has been and still remains to this very day after all these years an open forum for
PRACTICAL APPLICATION OF PENTECOSTAL THEOLOGY IN POLITICS, ECONOMY AND SOCIAL ISSUES
Varnel Watson
my comment to what is pertinent here James P Bowers Nelson Banuchi I do not know the Assemblies of God pastor of our bro Benjamin Horvat BUT if any minister do not have the wisdom to recognize evil and deceit when they attack the church it may be best to just resign and find another job more suitable to a character of such type
Benjamin Horvat
Troy Day okay—so you feel it is Christian to take a private conversation and broadcast it publicly?
Varnel Watson
I simply obey what our Lord commanded us in
Matthew 10:27 what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs
I feel it is Christian NOT to be scared to call the facts out and stand by our words in the open
Benjamin Horvat
WOW—YOU ATTRIBUTED MY COMMENTS TO THE WRONG ARTICLE. Besides—Is that what you would do if someone comes to you privately in the pastors’ office to voice their concern?—immediately publish their private comments for all to see without their permission? Some would call that borderline slander. You dishonestly excerpted what I said. I would have coached my comments more carefully…but I stand by them.
Varnel Watson
Benjamin Horvat As a moderator of this group I am responsible to relate all messages and comments to our authors providing OPEN ongoing discussion in our group You simply provided your comments to a post by our author and I simply related it under the proper post thus voicing your opinion without prejudice and allowing you to be heard by all on our platform It is the honest open thing to do as Jesus said
Matthew 10:27 what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs
Benjamin Horvat
Troy Day No. I wrote to you privately. You didn’t even publish the corrections I made to my own statement to you. Very uncharitable. Poor formatting…and if you are going to post my comments, post in entirety, not just an excerpt…otherwise, is not your portrayal of me dishonest? Moreover—do you proclaim irresponsibly from the rooftops while ignoring other pertinent instructions of Christ? Then I notice you attributing my comments to the wrong article. That’s deceptive moderation. I forgive you…
Varnel Watson
Benjamin Horvat When asked about the article you stated the : Trump in red blotch.
This is the right article you referred to – not the wrong article as you attempt to imply You expressed a valid opinion that needed to be heard in the group especially by the author who deserves our uttermost respect for voicing his view here
Benjamin Horvat
Troy Day You omitted several items I wrote and published without my knowledge or consent from my “[approaching] you as a brother privately” in Mathew 18:15. Then used a quote from Jesus to back up what you did, even though Jesus several times asked people to keep quite about something that was said or done. As such you’ve demonstrated your ability to take things out of context.
Varnel Watson
Benjamin Horvat I only posted your comment relevant to the article as I believe you had a great point that needed to be heard in the conversation You personal statements and language of choice is not of concern here and you are free to use it as you wish but I will not repeat it
Brian James
Trump has his faults yes I’m not his judge but that being said he is way better than any president we’ve had for years. He is pro life and he is trying to put America first. No I don’t agree with everything he says or does but please someone show me a better choice
Varnel Watson
Brian James as I shared with Nelson Banuchi I am neither FOR nor AGAINST the CT articles I feel they come a season too late The Southern Baptists were led to believe Trump will give them the keys for the Kingdom This having not happened and with no intention to happen it is normal that they change their stance in the 2020 elections I still feel they just took something already expressed time and time again by many Pentecostal leaders and CT voiced it out as their platform either to correct or cover up their election choices This is IMPO of course but seems a bit unconventional EXCEPT if you are trying to get CT publication to catch up on its annual losses at the end of 2019 http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/new-2018-warnings-by-spiritual-and-denominational-leaders-on-the-pentecostal-involvement-in-donald-trumps-presidency/
Glenn Lovell
There is only one reason Trump won in 2016. The DNC and Hillary Clinton. No need to say any more.
Varnel Watson
well Glenn Lovell there is much more GOP backed him off cause they had no other choice better than him GOP basically let the Donald fight their fight and do their dirty with with the dems For this reason a I truly believe William DeArteaga was right in his GOP post Jon Sellers what false witness did Galli bare against Trump ???
Varnel Watson
does this make it 50/50 Ricky Grimsley
Varnel Watson
som ppls memory is rather sho(r)t Joe Absher William DeArteaga especially on the false prophecies https://www.christianpost.com/news/donald-trump-supporters-youre-being-duped.html
Varnel Watson
Mike Partyka thanks for the mention This is in the words of M Brown referring to your liberal concerns As the most popular evangelical news website in the United States and the world, we feel compelled by our moral responsibility to our readers to make clear that Donald Trump does not represent the interests of evangelicals and would be a dangerous leader for our country. https://www.christianpost.com/news/donald-trump-scam-evangelical-voters-back-away-cp-editorial.html
Mike Partyka
Troy Day would you have felt the same about David ?
Varnel Watson
Mike Partyka not my feelings we are discussing here – I posted the concerns of M Brown – pls read them
Joe Absher
…you should get your own mileage and on your own shoulders Mr Day
Varnel Watson
bro Joe I read your last 2 comment but dont get it If you are referring to M Brown here’s the criticism – no more than 3yrs he advised against Trump as POTUS Better said sold books and run a very expensive ad campaign against him – meaning deep in politics; Recently he did a 180 flip fop and is now waste deep with family and all into the Trump train – well where is the Christian principle here? We invited him via Nelson Banuchi to com in the group and share a bit about the flip flop Perhaps it was more of a political move and not spiritual; perhaps it was a financial need that needed to be answered Not only he came he saw and he left but now ol Nelson is afraid to share anymore in the group on POTUS
Joe Absher
Calling our dear friend Nelson afraid is gross error and base . as a friend I have to tell you don’t be a nag . it’s unmanly .
Nelson Banuchi
Troy Day Respectfully, I’m not afraid to share anymore re: POTUS. Priorities have prevented me from engaging. I’ve pretty much spend much less time on FB than before.
I’d appreciate it if you’d ask why I may no longer share or share little rather than make such assumptions. Thanks!
Varnel Watson
Nelson Banuchi point well taken – my comment was about M Brown’s flip flops as we have discussed and seems it may have been taken out of context Nevertheless my question about M Brown stands No assumptions made
Varnel Watson
THANKS Brian Roden <> https://www.pastortheologians.com/blog/2019/12/23/trump-christianity-today-question-of-history?fbclid=IwAR19dd60Xiv1cTwk_zVT38DIR6ubb1NnmAvsM0ItoyDdf1fnn9V4zlYSlrU
Varnel Watson
do you full agree with this William DeArteaga Jim Price
Varnel Watson
@Leonard J. Ransil Dr. William DeArteaga wrote this one too Nelson Banuchi https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm+109%3A18&version=NIV
Mike Siebel
TRUMP 2020
Bill Harman
You might want a Trump shirt so you can show your support.
Mike Siebel
Bill Harman You’re sick
Bill Harman
It’s not my website, and I’m not the one voting for him ??♂️
Roger Throckmorton
Wow, I guess it’s easy to sit back find fault with others… maybe we need to put those who are so quick to find fault in the spot light 24/7 for a few years and see how they measure up to what they claim to believe. Whatever happen to the instructions to pray for our leaders and those who are in authority?
Varnel Watson
Roger Throckmorton why sit back? Us discussing here and bringing Spirit awareness to this sick political realm is taking a stand and expressing one In many places this is a well paid job – here we do it for free and as a ministry op
Roger Throckmorton
Troy Day, who did you vote for?
Daniel Wiggs
The only alternative to a socialist democratic agenda. It’s the churches fault for compromising the gospel and getting in bed with the world as well as people pleasing weak kneed religious leadership more interested in the flattery and applause of men more than pleasing the Heart of the Father.Sadly Trump is surrounded by false religious leadership that is more scary than him being president
Gary Smith
Well Christians sure can’t vote for the Democrats who want to silence the church and who stand against key church doctrines such as the Sanctity of Life and the Biblical Definition of a Family. The low moral Democrats are a disgrace.
Mike Siebel
This article is nonsense. There’s plenty to criticize Trump about, but there’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Trump has done great things for the Kingdom. It’s up to us take advantage of it while we still can.
Varnel Watson
why do you feel this way? Can you write an alternative non – nonsense so we can understand you better?
Haley Knox
I agree
Trump has done more for America than any other president
This article is garbage
Varnel Watson
oh WOW all he’s got to do is write another constitution Right Nelson Banuchi ?
Bill Harman
If you believe he’s done more for America than any other President, then you have no knowledge of history.
Darryl Forbes
I know this is unpopular so say in this group. But Trump has caused the Church to lose credibility. He’s playing us. And we’re falling for it.
Bill Harman
This!!!
Roger Throckmorton
Darryl Forbes The church doesn’t need Trump’s help to lose it’s credibility… the church is doing a fine job on it own!
Todd Griffin
Darryl Forbes Well how about showing us all A Better option then? The Democrats are ?% being Led by Satan himself, no doubt.
Darryl Forbes
Todd Griffin in all honesty, the same could be said for the republicans IF one chooses to focus ONLY on certain issues and on the CURRENT refusal to hold the President accountable or even criticize his blatant wrongs. In truth both political parties have good and evil practices. What makes us lose credibility is the HEAD OVER HEELS support Trump receives from many in the American church. If there was evidence that we were conflicted that would be one thing. But NOTHING he says or does seems to provoke ANY sense of moral outrage as long as he has the “right” position on 2 or 3 issues.
Todd Griffin
Darryl Forbes In all honesty, at the end of the Day I’m sold out to Jesus Christ, not The President, some governor, lawmaker , denomination. It’s about Jesus Christ and the Commission he gave us to Take The Message of Salvation to All The World. I want a President that stands up for God’s People yes, but if he don’t then Oh Well, THE MESSAGE GOES ON. JESUS JESUS JESUS.
Darryl Forbes
Todd Griffin I 100% agree. But I believe that as good citizens, we are allowed to participate in the political process as long as we don’t put our Faith in it because Kingdoms rise and fall. Also, the REASONS we choose to support or not support a person or issue reveals a lot about us. I think the REASON we chose SOMETIMES matters more than WHO we chose to support. I admit that’s my opinion and not a revelation from God.
Darryl Forbes
Roger Throckmorton true. And the UNWAVERING support given by many Christians who otherwise have sound, biblical beliefs and practices doesn’t help. Some have actually backed away from speaking for or against certain things because it contradicts The president. They’ll deny it. But we see it.
Daniel Wiggs
Roger Throckmorton very true. The church lost credibility as far back as the 80s with Jimmy Baker’s fraud and Jimmy Swaggart .. Jimmy has not stopped playing people since being out of prison. The church is being shaken and it needs to wake up.
Roger Throckmorton
Darryl Forbes who do you suggest that believers should vote for? I’m not crazy about Trump, but, he’s a better choice than what the democrats are ofering…
Darryl Forbes
Roger Throckmorton I suggest that Christians take the time to look at a candidate through a complete lens and make a decision. And whomever they choose, be honest. The main problem is that many Christians support Trump with MORE enthusiasm than they’ve supported anyone else in recent history. They overlook his flaws. They act like anyone who dare oppose him is less saved. They say they support him because of his stance on abortion and gay marriage. But actually DEFEND the UNGODLY things too. Then they deny his racially tinged statements, defend his acts against the “strangers “ among us etc. The support for Trump isn’t reluctant. It’s with glee. Not only that, Christians gladly tolerate in him what they said made others UNFIT for office. Christians must give an account for those inconsistencies.
Theodore Ballard
I, for one, have never looked to President Trump for my spiritual inspiration, however, I have looked to him to keep this country safe and to fight against abortion and for this and many other things he has inspired me!
Varnel Watson
but he was always PRO abortion – what changed?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day The reason he gives is when he had his first born child and realize the fragility and preciousness of life he changed his mind on abortion.
Theodore Ballard
Haven’t we all changed our minds about important things at some time in life? I certainly have. “I once was blind but now I see.”
Bill Harman
He has spoken out about his support of abortion since his first child was born. This is just another lie like so many other things.
Theodore Ballard
Bill Harman But if he is now against abortion, isn’t that a good thing?
Bill Harman
I don’t believe that he is now against abortion. I believe he gave it lip service in order to get elected. He’s signed over more taxpayer money to Planned Parenthood than Obama did. I don’t look at that as Pro Life. The judges he has appointed to th SC both said that Roe v Wade is “settled law,” in other words they would never overturn it. All I see from him are words, not actions.
Darryl Forbes
Bill Harman Trump is simply playing us. An collectively we are WILLFULLY being played. He has exposed some of our CARNAL NATURE. He knows that he can speak the buzz words anti Abortion, prayer in school, and pro family, and many Christians will ignore EVERYTHING else he does. But the truth is that almost EVERY republican holds those positions. Yet many Christians chose Trump EARLY in the process. Why? Because he appeals to something DARKER inside their hearts . When you see the stuff that makes them applaud. The policies they now defend that are not godly. The silence (or denial) when he offends their brothers and sisters of different races. Examples: Many of the immigrants from Haiti and other countries he’s insulted and rejects are PENTECOSTAL CHRISTIANS. Many of the Mexican immigrants are too. Our organization alone has seen a rapid increase in Spanish and French speaking congregations lately. I could go on. But I’ll stop now because I’ll be accused of sowing discord. But we need to TRULY examine our motives.
Bill Harman
I agree with you 100%. I’ve been saying much the same thing since he entered the primary.
Shane Vanmeter
Aaaaand still your president lol
#dontbesalty
Douglas W Martin
Trump 2020
Jireh D Hormann
Daniel Wiggs have you looked at his spiritual advisor team around him? Might want to rethink that
Daniel Wiggs
Jireh D Hormann Paula white for one is a false teacher and Maldonado.. i like Jentzen Franklin but oil and water does not mix no more than truth and error
Jireh D Hormann
Daniel Wiggs
I agree, There are some douses I disagree with on the team too, but Franklin Graham, Dr James Dobson, Robert Morris and others are excellent advisors and wouldn’t stay on the team if it was not God driven and God glorifying
Jerry Dee Ryan III
Trump 2020, he has done the most good as any other president and it shows, because he’s falls through with his actions.. on the other hand the Liberals just want a communist country
Forhimforever Jerry
Some self-acclaimed so-called Christians have an obsession to defame TRUMP by celebrating Democrats running for election!
In America we don’t vote for a perfect man but only the one who most represents God’s moral values.
There are no conditions in our Constitution that say he or she has to be a born-again Christian.
Our government was designed as a Constitutional Republic and we are not a Democracy run by a mob rule. We elect leaders to vote for Biblical values.
If we were back in the Roman times, we may not have the option to vote who would be in power.
But our government was based on many individuals’ fighting with their blood to be free from the dictates of the British rule of control. As an example, individuals were forced into a state religion.
Anyone that throws their vote away by not voting is disregarding and highly disrespecting what the forefathers fought for and died for to establish our country.
If you do nothing you are saying something. No decision is a decision!
Would you let the Democrats come into power?
What do they stand for? Review all the democrats in their democratic debates. American is so dumb down by listening to the lies of the commercial far left radical media that they can’t discern good from evil.
In general, Democrats:
1) All Pro-death! Approves legislation to end the life of the baby as they are precious in God’s sight. Can anyone call themselves a Christian who vote to destroy life created by God? Trump Pro-Life!
2) All LGBTQ supportive. No restrictions and no borders for intimacy as God designed it but freedom or lawlessness to define intimacy any which way! Eliminate traditional marriage! Trump Supports traditional marriage!
3) Supports radical left liberal Supreme Court nominees! Obama filled two supreme court positions with radial left ideologies! TRUMP nominated All conservative judges who support the constitution of the USA!
4) All support High taxes– Tax and spend your money! My state now raised Gas taxes by 40 cents a gallon and raised license fees by 50 percent! Up to 18 billion dollars of new taxes coming up. They don’t know how to cut parole! Trump lowered Taxes!
5) More regulations and control of your life & hatred for Christians. Trump has done more for Christians than any other president!
6) Support Socialism – Legally steal your money and use it for their schemes. Trump is Anti-Socialism!
7) All Globalist desire a One World government! and Anti-Nationalist! Trump against Globalism! Strategically brought jobs back into the USA!
8) All want a Borderless country! A country without borders isn’t a country! Trump believes in legal entry. Trump supporting more Christian refugees!
9) Does not believe it’s a Right to bear arms under the 2nd amendment! Democrats will remove the rights of law abiding citizens to bear arms to defend themselves! Criminal can always get weapons. See State of Virginia radial left democrats mandating the relinquishing of guns! Trump Supports the 2nd Amendment!
10) Remove God’s moral compass, Ten Commandments from schools and schools reproduce zombies of the lawless society! Supports Religious morals!
11) Against freedom of speech! Calls God’s moral standards hate speech! Control what you say and eliminate what they do not want you to say!
12) Does not Support Israel! The Palestinians do not support a two-state solution but an elimination of Israel period! Trump gave sovereignty back to Israel!
13) The list is only a beginning! Democrats want to penalize Christians for speaking truths in God’s Word. They want to Silence Christians at any cost! There is no tolerance for God’s Laws!
We are at a tipping point in America whereby any Christian truth spoken or written will be treated as hate speech and forbidden to say in our culture! Our nation is on a tight rope and certainly ripe for the judgment of God and hanging on by a thread and any slip will be irreconcilable.
Varnel Watson
Some self-acclaimed so-called Christians have an obsession to defend TRUMP
Daniel Wiggs
Forhimforever Jerry a well written articulated rebuttal. If we don’t properly vote this Republic we call the United States of America will continue is downward spiral. Socialism is a cancer and the free goverment hand outs are not free someone is paying. The Gospel needs to preached properly and with the power of the Holy Ghost in boldness
Daniel Wiggs
Troy Day not much of a rebuttal. Have an alternative then for a President..
Darryl Forbes
I’m really not trying to start trouble. But I am trying to spur us to think outside the box. Does anyone wonder why people who belong to churches that have the SAME biblical beliefs or even the SAME ORGANIZATION, but are of different races or backgrounds differ so vastly in their opinion of the republicans in general and in Trump in particular? Please don’t blame “the media” or Al Sharpton/Jesse Jackson. Dig deeper. We’re your brothers and sisters in Christ. So let’s seek to understand what’s going on. I’m a Pentecostal believer who believes in the Bible as the infallible and inerrant word of God as well. But probably 80% of Black evangelicals and Pentecostals believe Trump and the overwhelming support he receives from evangelical Christians HURTS the cause of Christ more than it helps. And nearly that same amount of White evangelicals seem to believe he and their support of him HELPS the cause of Christ. Something’s amiss here.
Todd Griffin
Darryl Forbes Sir do me a favor. Take a look around these days at the groups that are aligning themselves together against God, his Word, The Followers of Jesus Christ, The Atheists, The Abortion Drs,The LGBT, The muslims,ext. Satan is recruiting more everyday.
Todd Griffin
Darryl Forbes Sir, I feel in my Heart your a good man, I do. We may differ on some things but It’s Jesus Christ , The Blood that Breaks down The Walls, and holds it all together. God Bless you today!
Darryl Forbes
Todd Griffin add to that those who either follow or turn a blind eye to racism, oppression of the weak,etc.
It seems that as long as folk check the boxes against abortion, Islam, and LBGT, they are embraced as godly. But folks seem to ignore these other things that God also hates :
Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
We in holiness have always stated that God hates ALL sin. But lately…
Darryl Forbes
Todd Griffin thanks. Yes, the blood breaks down the walls. But we have to crucify our FLESH and walk in the SPIRIT. I think too many times we fail to allow the Spirit to do his complete work in our lives. Even after Peter received the Holy Ghost, God still had to enlighten him on some things. I think we still need to let him enlighten us on Hebrews 10:24
—-And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:—
To often we tend to see things only from our own perspective. And we don’t consider our brothers. We sometimes (unintentionally, I hope) provoke each other to anger, sadness, discouragement, etc., instead. By God’s Grace , we should do better.
Jerome Herrick Weymouth
Ya awl can write your stories about Trump, and i will vote for him again… all Pelousites are offering us are wackos… either a queen in a gay relationship or a communist!
Varnel Watson
meaning Trump is NOT a wacko Nelson Banuchi
Nettie Miller
I am a Christian and I voted for Trump last time and I will again.Trump 20/20.He is the best choice.
Neil Steven Lawrence
While some of the points in this article are valid and relevant, it is still old news not based on a three-year track record but only a two month observation of his tenure in office.
When you fight fools sometimes you look like a fool (the Bible is clear on that). But if you want to know what several decades of not fighting fools looks like just ask the Republicans of the establishmen; they have surrendered to fools (demoncrats) for decades. Now we have seen someone who has challenged us to fight for what is right!
That is honorable!
Varnel Watson
the points are indeed very valid and very relevant William DeArteaga makes an excellent case again BECAUSE he wrote the truth his post was taken down from many networks including some Pentecostal sites censoring his work in the long run BUT NOT here Ray E Horton Nelson Banuchi The author has not placed his work into the usual pro-Trump prophetic but rather calls for wisdom in the Spirit departing from the political scandal or usual sensationalism Joe Absher has come to appall so strongly with the rest of us It is very very simple – TIME for the church to wake up in 2020
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day The real church is awake! The fake church is blinded, deluded, asleep, a haunt of demons…!
Remember Samson? He was a ruler and a judge, a disruptor but sloppy with his morals. Need I remind you he also had long hair ?. His reign was messy but at least he got the job done and in the end he killed more Philistines than during his reign. It was not pretty but the enemy was punished!
… you see any parallels with Trump?
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence there is only ONE church – no real no fake just ONE – one BODY The article is spot on
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day wheat and the tares.
“In the last days many will come in my name… do not go out to them.“(Mat.24)
The ONE church is the spiritual organic body of Christ unseen and unable to be determine while on this earth. But there are false believers among us – that is scriptural.
Matthew 7:21f “Jesus said, “MANY will say, ‘ Lord, Lord did we not cast out demons, perform miracles, etc.… But I will tell them plainly I never knew you.“
You don’t have to be fFOR Trump to be a Christian but if you’re against what he’s accomplishing I wonder…
Is he using the church to gain power? We now have four (campaign + administration) years to look at that answer, and I don’t think you could say the church is just a pawn. We are the welcome recipients of him turning back the tide.
If he is just using the church that’s much better than being abused by the demoncrats!
Daniel Wiggs
Jireh D Hormann agreed..?
Jesse James Sullivan
And it is perfectly evident what the old nature does. It expresses itself in sexual immorality, impurity and indecency; involvement with the occult and with drugs; in feuding, fighting, becoming jealous and getting angry; in selfish ambition, factionalism, intrigue and envy; in drunkenness, orgies and things like these. I warn you now as I have warned you before: those who do such things will have no share in the Kingdom of God!
Galatians (Gal) 5:19-21 CJB
https://bible.com/bible/1275/gal.5.19-21.CJB
Chris Westerman
So what? What is your point?
Varnel Watson
Chris Westerman means the BIBLE calls for the demonic to be cast OUT NOT proclaimed within the church
Varnel Watson
so simple predictable and out of Spirit wisdom Bill Harman do you also sell a Trump cape for this poster?
Thomas Henry Jr.
Troy Day i don’t know Bill Harmon. But I stick with scripture and God uses broken people like Trump.
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence when you said
You don’t have to be fFOR Trump to be a Christian but if you’re against what he’s accomplishing I wonder
do you see how your comparison shifts from him to what he had accomplished? And there is the problem AT HAND IMHO of course KNOW BE DO is still a standard for Pentecostals
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day IMHO?
You’ll know the tree by it’s fruit.
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence in my humble op. What fruit? the cursing on live TV or something else on your mind?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day I agree there is no room for anything vile or secular as being admirable. But politics in the states used to be even worse than it is right now. Did you watch the Lincoln movie? That is an example of how politicians used to act. What I hate is Democrats being allowed to do any thing they want and never being prosecuted or called on the carpet but Republicans having to tiptoe around all the time.
As far as accomplishments they are multitude. Do I really need to list them? All you have to do is watch Fox News for a couple hours and you’ll hear them.
Like Rush Limbaugh said when he was confronted by a caller who said ‘why don’t you allow equal time for the liberal viewpoint?” He said, “I am equal time.“
Varnel Watson
Neil Steven Lawrence when were they worse IYO?
Neil Steven Lawrence
Troy Day it was actually so bad in Lincolns day, they would publicly insult each other in the worst manner – way worse than Trump today. In fact it got so bad that Lincoln was eventually assassinated by those same nasty politicians. Google it IMHO
Darryl Forbes
Jireh D Hormann Trump has changed THEM they haven’t changed him one bit.
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[…] [2] See my blog on “Donald the Dishonorable: On the spiritual damage of the Trump Presidency,” Pentecostal Theology, Posted Dec 26, 2019. http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/donald-the-dishonorable-on-the-spiritual-damage-of-the-trump-pres… […]
A Charismatic Historian's Response to the George Floyd Demonstrations
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