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Do PENTECOSTALS still believe that one can be demon possessed?
1. When was the last time you cast out a demon?
2. When was the last time you witness a demon being cast out?
Matthew 10:5-8 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
Luke 4:33-37 And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God. And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not. And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out. And the fame of him went out into every place of the country round about.
We won a man to our church who brought a whole bunch of people to our church. The mother of one of the families was a very interesting person.
She came to a dinner we had and somehow she found out I was the Pastor and wanted to chat with me. So, I sat at her table to talk and oh my goodness!!! The stuff that came out of her mouth was beyond triple X rated.
This woman had knowledge of many different religions and had melded them together to come up with this weird belief system. She was extremely jealous of her husband, she was seriously addicted to marijuana, she was extremely angry, extremely bitter, vicious when she would attack people, I believe she was schizophrenic, her children tried to avoid her, her siblings stayed away from her and she could come up with a lie on someone so fast your head would spin. I had never dealt with someone like this before.
One night, I was called to her daughter and son-in-laws house to help them deal with this woman. We sat down and tried to talk through some of the problems they were having. All of a sudden this woman went into a rage (demonic rage) and started accusing her daughter and son-in-law of all kinds of horrible things. We tried to get her to stop but she wouldn’t she continued on for quite a long time.
I told my wife and the couple to not say anything, not to listen to the lies and not to react to her just to pray. At some point, she must have realized what she was saying was not working and then she turned on me. She came up with some stuff that made my hair stand on end. As soon as she started in on me, my wife and I began to immediately rebuke this woman/spirit with everything we had in us. After about 10-15 minutes of serious rebuking, praying and quoting of scripture she finally stopped.
Since this incident, I had to ask her not to come back to the church for a while and after that period of time she came back, we began working with her and the change in this woman is amazing. She is not perfect but she is nothing like what we first saw. God is so good!
Varnel Watson
I am starting to wonder that myself sometimes Robert Borders David Lewayne Porter
Street Preacherz
Isn’t it one of those translation things? Possessed, owned, controlled, inhabited?
Varnel Watson
Gr. word is demonized
Street Preacherz
Right. Have you read Derk Prince? “They shall expel demons”
Varnel Watson
Many times. Win Worley too. And many others… Robert Borders
Robert Borders
I took a seminary class in Spiritual Warfare in Indiana back in 1990 and I was the only Pentecostal in the class. The only persons I knew that would schedule appointments for persons wanting deliverance were a Baptist minister and a Mennonite layman. In more recent years a rural Catholic parish in Indiana had a two-year waiting list for people that had appointments for deliverance ministry. Traditional Pentecostal churches are still the last place that I would refer people to in Indiana if they wanted or needed deliverance ministry do to poor theology and practice.
Street Preacherz
I don’t think it is possible to practice or teach holiness with out teaching how to fight temptation and the authority of Jesus name.
Varnel Watson
On holiness Charles Page Isnt entire sanctification namely dealing with the demons in your life once you get saved and regenerated?
Street Preacherz
I on part way through Wesley’s work on the subject of entire sanctification. He is explaining / defending his process over the years in coming to Christian perfection. He hasn’t mention get the devil “off” yet.
Terry Wiles
In the West Satan most often possesses the mind. In the Eastern world and in non developed countries body possession is more prominent.
This is changing as East comes West. One evidence is the rise of exorcisms among Romanists as is being reported in the news.
Intellectual possession is harder to recognize and arrogant. It is often manifested by cutting, piercing, anger, etc., along with many other body manifestations sexually, socially, and spiritually which are common our society.
However, the Western church is not open to making connections with such. Many are openly hostile to connecting with hardened sinners and instead flourish in patronizing the saint who has little tolerance for “Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done.”
Paul’s comments about our effective weapons tearing down strongholds is referring to this type of mental oppression and/or possession.
Our society recognizes these type possessions as “disorders” which can be medically suppressed or cured. This adds to the problem.
Because of this lack of recognition our children are educated in a godless society and indoctrinated in the ways of the devil.
A current example of this is the new Disney children’s movie “Luana” which portrays the mental attitude that rejects The Creator God.
One biblical solution would be to deliberately and systematically preach the Word. Another would be for Gods people to repent, pray, and seek Gods face instead of Gods hands.
And still another would be for us to “train up” our children in the way they should go.
Street Preacherz
Do think it is necessary to rebuke carnal/demonic reactions while preaching?
Varnel Watson
And how about in West Salem?
Street Preacherz
Sorry I don’t get it. West Salem?
Terry Wiles
I think it is necessary to let God rise up and His enemies will be scattered.
Varnel Watson
Do PENTECOSTALS still believe that one can be demon possessed?
1. When was the last time you cast out a demon?
2. When was the last time you witness a demon being cast out?
Jobe Nelson Statum III
I personally have been involved on 3 occasions in the last 15 years.
Wilmer L. Kerns
I witnessed others being delivered on two occasions (I’m 84), and I experienced it alone four years ago, when confronted by demons, with no choice. One of the demons identified himself and used the persons mouthpiece to utter threats and accusations. I heard for myself a satanic scream that Catholic priests have described. It was directed toward me in a voice that was beyond the range of the possessed. Anyone who has ever heard this will never mistake it for something psychological. I felt a mixture of fear and boldness quoting the Word of God and praying for two days before the person was released. I am a layman. Yes, I have read Derek Prince and others. I try to say as far away as possible from such encounters.
Street Preacherz
The last time I prayed for a man and deliverance was man struggling to be free from heroin addiction. He is saved and free and serving God. This was last month. God honors prayers in Jesus name!
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
If people can’t still be demon possessed then most of what Jesus came for and commissioned us to do is null and void.
Isaiah 61:1-3
The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn; To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the Lord, that he might be glorified.
Jesus himself pointed out that it was more than just salvation
Luke 4:18-27
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears. And all bare him witness, and wondered at the gracious words which proceeded out of his mouth. And they said, Is not this Joseph’s son? And he said unto them, Ye will surely say unto me this proverb, Physician, heal thyself: whatsoever we have heard done in Capernaum, do also here in thy country. And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country. But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elias, when the heaven was shut up three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land; But unto none of them was Elias sent, save unto Sarepta, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow. And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Eliseus the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.
Remember His final earthly charge to His true followers.
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
I think the demons/devils are staying hidden and are more sly until they feel threatened.
I believe that the more pressing question would be,
“When is the last time a devil was threatened by our presence”?
The presence of the Holy Spirit/God within us?
Robert Borders
Dr. John White (now deceased) was a Canadian psychiatrist and later a preacher and prolific author who often had people begin to manifest with demons when he stepped up to preach. Smith Wigglesworth saw this happen in every day life. I have seen a few people begin to manifest in church services and in psychiatric hospital settings but not on a regular basis.
Varnel Watson
Thanks for the mention David Lewayne Porter
Street Preacherz
The only thing that threatens devil’s is the word of God in the bosom of a sanctified heart and preached with authority in Jesus name! Your presence not so much.
Street Preacherz
You have to go where the people are.
Varnel Watson
Mt. 3:5 All people came to where John the Baptist was
David Lewayne Porter
Street Preacherz
Maybe you stopped reading my post one sentence too soon.
You need to finish it.
If The Word was enough
Why did Jesus tell His disciples to wait and tarry until endued with power from on high?..
Street Preacherz
You’re right. I didn’t see it. However for me the preaching of God’s Word exposes the works of darkness. “These three agree in heaven.” I don’t see much an anointing for deliverance apart from the preaching of God’s word! Sorry this has to be short. But the scripture cleary says and the Lord worked with them confirming the word with signs following. I may have taken offense at the statements of the presence of men. Men are nothing. The born again spirit of men submitted to God and walking in agreement with Christ and doing his will is another matter. Sorry.. Please forgive me. Some people and their presence is nothing but self importance, vanity and empty promises. Again sorry.
Street Preacherz
Yes sorry. Deleted. Thank you for your patience.
Street Preacherz
I’m not John Baptist. LOL
Kaleb Ykowski
Amen. Reading the word with intent and praying with intent throughout the day everyday will cause them to manifest in non believers. Many a homeless people are possessed. Once I encountered a homeless man who had more than one devil in him as he was speaking in the plural “us.” He was in his late 50’s to early 60’s asking for money. Thank God He was walking with a walker. I wonder if he wasn’t on a walker that he would try to aggressively approach me because he was extremely infuriated( teeth clenching angry reddish eyes) with me when I started praying to God in Jesus name in front of him.
Many truly homeless people are either addicted to drugs and, or, are “mentally” I’ll. It seems they cannot escape whatever it is that is causing them mental anguish. I’ll bet a hundred doves with a temple priest that it has to do with their past experiences.
Their past experiences in either, or a combo of witchcraft, drugs, promiscuity, prostitution, abuse, regrets, etc. All gateways for a devilish entrance into a person’s lives. They’re like a bunch of Mary Magdalenes before her deliverance.
You guys kow what is the “scary” part about discerning a devil/demon possessed person is? It’s when they know you have the Spirit of God in you. I started noticing a strange repeating occurrence with possessed people. One example is prostitutes. After receiving the Holy Ghost, I started noticing( really it’s God revealing to me) the many possessed woman. How? I noticed that every time I was driving past on the road and them on the sidewalk, yet still a ways behind them, that they turn around to stare me straight in the eyes while I’m still 100 ft behind them with cars before and behind me. Yet they stare straight at me. Happens every time and never fails. Doesn’t happen to the car in front or the back, its just to me. Very strange experiences. This was all after the Holy Ghost. I questioned God and asked what in the world under heaven is going on? He didn’t answer me, but I’m slowly learning. Long story short…yes I believe believers(should be “walkers” with God) do experience, and, can discern open manifestations if they accept the reality and pay more attention, not to the demons, but to God, and the devils will show themselves because now they all know you know that they know you know they know.
And when they know that you are slipping, they will take every single opportunity to mess with you. Little things that they never considered bothering you over, now they take advantage of that license to mess with you, sigh, but then again I guess that’s how we grow and learn right? If we don’t trip sometimes we can’t become stronger I suppose. It’s like our sore legs needs some stretching to become stronger and more flexible.
Just thought Id share my thoughts and experiences with the group.
Kaleb Ykowski
Let’s be Believers not Beliebers. Whatever happened in the bible 2000 yrs ago can happen today. Baptism of the Holy Ghost, miracles, angels and angels disguised as people, demonic oppression and possession not all are mental disorders. some are, not all. The bible is a package deal.
Varnel Watson
Wilmer L. Kerns Were these Christian people or unbelievers? Terry Wiles Would you say deliberate passive aggressiveness and conniving church politics are two of these western cases of demonization?
Wilmer L. Kerns
It is difficult to judge. The first one was not a Christian. I did not know him personally, but was part of a prayer team that was called to his house by his wife. The last one was a person who had been baptized and had followed the Lord, but fell into sin. None were Christians who were walking in the light at that time. I think I see why you raised the question. Recently, I have read about the possibility of demons taking over a professing Christian’s life. I have always opposed this kind of thinking, but in recent years I have second thoughts.One example was a person who was overcome by lust and pornography; yet they were professing Christians, even ministers. It could be very subtle, and not the violent kinds I dealt with and described above.
Varnel Watson
as we’ve discussed the possibility with David Lewayne Porter
David Lewayne Porter
Wilmer
I like and do appreciate that you pointed out they were “professing (c)hristians”.
Lust and pornography,
This,is,what the Bible says about lust,
It is the individual, not just a spirit;
James 1:14-16
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. Do not err, my beloved brethren.
So can a true believing Christian be controlled to habitually sin..
Not according to Scripture.
Scripture overrides our experiences.
Terry Wiles
No. even the devil wouldn’t stoop that low. That is carnal at its best.
Wilmer L. Kerns
David Lewayne Porter You are not saying that sin is just a matter of human nature or the carnal mind, without the influence of satan’s angels (demons) are you? To be tempted, there has to be a tempter. It is also possible to be deceived, but others discern it. This hasn’t happened to me, thank the Lord, but I have seen it happen to others. i wouldn’t call it possession, but it is not a spirit filled life, even though the person professes and may be in a ministry.
David Lewayne Porter
Wilmer
I will agree with everything you said after your (?-mark).
As far as the question,
Satan and his devils can lay the bait (temptation) before a person, but the sinful carnal nature of man determines what each person is willing to fall for and accept (lust). (See verses in previous reply).
I am glad you stated that you would not call it possession (because it is not). It is normally just dealing with temptation and the battle of a sanctified and overcoming life. It is at worst oppression, but not possession unless they are out of control during those times, not weak or yielding, but out of their own control.
I am also very glad that you stated it was not a Spirit filled life, even though the person professes and may (even) be in a ministry.
It sounds like we agree my brother, and almost perfectly.
Charles Page
If demons were here with us I would keep them on their toes and very busy
Robert Borders
Probably true
Varnel Watson
and you probably do 🙂
Varnel Watson
Wilmer L. Kerns A church goer at least or not?
Robert Borders
In my review of works by George Barna and many others, it is estimated that less than 10% of American churchgoers would meet criteria for being born again.
Varnel Watson
I’ve read that only 5-10% of Catholics are truly devoted
Charles Page
I know that would be true of COG bishops – less than 10% are truly born again!
Varnel Watson
AG would be only 10% of the person sanctified the other 90% of the person progressing toward sanctification
Charles Page
I don’t believe you can be sanctified progressively. It is entire and instantaneous if you are truly sanctified.
Terry Wiles
I’ve tried to understand the arguments of COG Concerning sanctification. The best I can make is they are talking about salvation. Using Charles Page argument even the apostle Paul wouldn’t be sanctified.
For it to be their defining doctrine one would think some contemporary could explain it rather than refer to some writing that simply talks around the issue.
Or maybe they don’t want anyone to know? :).
Charles Page
Terry, what Paul and I believe is different from your interpretation of what you assume I believe
Terry Wiles
Charles Page still waiting for a clear explanation of sanctification according to the COG.
Charles Page
Give me your clear explanation
Terry Wiles
You are the COG insider. I am trying to research their defining doctrine but nobody will answer.
Charles Page
Terry Wiles they don’t know either
It is a second work of grace after one has been born again.
The born again exercise faith in the blood of Christ, they believe on the word of God and they cooperate with the Holy Ghost. When those three things have been done by one already born again he will attain the holiness that is God’s standard of living for us.
Did you do those things (in truth and honesty)? Then you have been sanctified. That is clear COG teaching!
Terry Wiles
Charles Page so what is evidence? Are you saying the teaching is that those who are sanctified do not sin?
Charles Page
Terry Wiles the COG does not teach that they don’t sin and they teach that the tongues are the initial evidence of the baptism with the Holy Ghost.
There are COG preachers who teach that the sanctified don’t sin however it is not a teaching of the church.
Terry Wiles
So what does sanctification bring if they do not sin?
Street Preacherz
Would the example of the the children of Israel and the Passover be a legitimate example. The were saved from death and judgment by the blood of the Lamb, but they still had to get up and walk out of Egypt. Is that a valid example?
Varnel Watson
Terry Wiles Its Wesley’s argument not Cog and we as AG have a hard time to understand it. Nevertheless, all of the people in Acts had a time of prayer and sanctification prior to receiving the Holy Spirit. Just think about it… Acts 2 (10 days), Cornelius (4 days), the Ephesians (since Johns baptism) and so on…
Terry Wiles
Doesn’t fit the definition of sanctification.
Terry Wiles
Still is strange that no one inside can explain it. Don’t blame Wesley. They made it their distinctive doctrine if I’m not mistaken.
Varnel Watson
How does it not fit? Acts they prayed for 10 days. Cornelius prayed and fasted for 4 days, etc.
Terry Wiles
So to be sanctified you need to fast and pray. Then what happens and how does anyone know it happens as a defining work of grace.
Varnel Watson
Live without sin?
Terry Wiles
That’s subjective, like saying 7 people got healed of back pain. How do others know you are sanctified?
Street Preacherz
Never thought about that with Cornelius. But you’re right they were fasting and praying. There is something wonderful that takes place when a man that was dead in sin comes alive to God in Jesus Christ. There is very real seperation from sin. And set aside. Is it unreasonable to think the glories of this takes thought and time. Best described as Romans 12:1&2
Terry Wiles
There’s “a rat” in separation. 🙂
Varnel Watson
We may need to rethink the sanctification of the Roman centurion Cornelius may need to be And may be just may be as I suggested to Dan Irving we may have been looking at the wrong majority?
Melvin Harter
Still believe? I was not aware that Pentecostals ever believed such a thing.
David Lewayne Porter
People possessed yes, not believers.
Varnel Watson
or backsliden believers right?
David Lewayne Porter
Backsliden who used to be believers,
Yes.
Varnel Watson
Many churches are full with those Robert Borders
Rijo Koshy
Jesus is coming soon
Kaleb Ykowski
Oppressed and attacked yes, but not possessed. I have the Holy Ghost, but for the past 3 years I have been really struggling with God. What I have learned from this experience of, having the Holy Ghost yet being distant from God, is that the demons will attack and oppress mentally while im awake and also tangibly oppressing, outside of my body of course, while I am sleeping and in my dreams. No physical pain, just a tangible presence around me when I’m near awake.
I notice that when I draw close to God by praying, or even just by reading the Bible, God’s in filling causes the “shadows” or demonic entities, their presence, to actually scatter and flee.
David Lewayne Porter
Kaleb Ykowski
Exactly
Varnel Watson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bTHmlrIHRuM
Charles Page
don’t forget my live at five videos
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
I do not have time for this.
I am not too sure of the “source”.
My personal opinion.
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter For the sake of this (I bevel helpful) conversation, were the people you delivered from demon(s) among church members ?
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
Define church member…
You mean calling themselves a church member?
You mean calling themselves christians?
Or do you mean living the Christian life according to biblical definition and guidelines?
Some were from “religious” back grounds.
Some had attended churches.
Some had their names on church rolls.
Some were ex-attenders
Some were ex-members
Some were currently attending.
Some were currently “members” in name only.
Some were handled in the church, some were handled in the parsonage, some were handled outside in the yard, some in their homes.
Some during church services.
Yes in the church during the preaching and altar services.
So they are never the same, never.
By the way a blind survey and study by (I believe Barna Group) says according to straight biblical based theology only 80% of those sitting in the church are saved – according to their beliefs and life styles. Yet those 80% claim to be believing – heaven ready Christians.
So please define what you mean by church member.
Charles Page
Personally I don’t know what Troy believes 😉
Varnel Watson
Were they members of your church congratulation? If they were, you well know people attending your church and are saved can have a demon. Except of course if you have people in your membership that are not saved, but thats a question for a different discussion and probably breaks a few membership requirements
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
These were not members of MY church.
Does having your name on a church roll make you a christian?
Does attending a church make you a christian?
Where you there?
You asked the other day what was the difference between possession and oppression.
And you want to tell me what happened in situations where you were not even there.
Just think about that for a few moments.
Brother, You have some issues.
So are you
Having another one of those non-biblical terminology conversations from a viewpoint and standing of not having been there?
Your church members may very well have demons – I am sorry devils (to be biblically accurate).
My truly saved attending members who are Christians because they have accepted forgiveness of sins and deliverance
Can’t be possessed.
Charles Page
At Antioch they were church members and were call Christians
David Lewayne Porter
Ty Charles Page.
Why were they called Christians. (Notice, not a ?)
Charles Page
They were identified with the body of believing followers of Christ. There was a recording of names on scrolls for posterity’s sake.
Varnel Watson
Well David Lewayne Porter there are certain requirements for church membership and one of them is salvation right?
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
So all of your church members are truly saved by biblical standards?
More than just a name on a roll?
That tells me that
1) you believe everyone on you roll tells the truth all of the time
2) you can decern all spirits effecting your church members, especially their individual spirits.
So Troy, is that what you are saying?
Does having your name on a roll save you?
Does attending church save you?
All of those on my church roll when I got there were received into membership under previous pastors (trust me, the ones on the roll WERE NOT all Christians).
I have actually not allowed some people to join the church while I have been there due to their life styles and other habits.
So Troy
Yet again
Stop dancing around it,
Straight up Bible without non – biblical theology.
Trying to justify with arguments and situations which are not biblical.
Show me in the Bible where a believer – at the time of being a believer, was ever taken by satan at his will against their own will and then them made to act contrary to Christian behavior (ungodly, wicked, evil).
That is what being possessed by a devil is.
Charles Page
Satan is alive however not on the earth and certainly not doing well.
David Lewayne Porter
1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
I know that He is the prince and power of the air, but does he walk through the air?
Kaleb Ykowski
I believe that 80% is just too high a percentage of “ready” Christians. Even pastors and not just “laymen” have to be accounted for in the overall percentage because there are a many that struggle like the rest. Or there are those that just hold the office and title yet are far from walking with God. And who would admit that to a survey?
David Lewayne Porter
Kelab
It was a blind survey mailed out to church distributed to the congregation, filled out, returned without any information except the answer to the questions.
They are who woould.
There was also a survey taken of preachers in 2010 within the same guidelines in which the pastors,you referred to admitted at a percentage of 70% to viewing pornography at least 3 times a week.
Here is a more startling thought;
You asked,
“Who would admit thst to a survey?”.
So them if they agreed to answer the survey and did not admit it then they make themselves liars.
Wow,
What does revelations say about that?
Says they disqualify themselves and are become unusable
Revelation of John 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
That bothers me as much as the 80% and the 70% pastors viewing pornography.
By the way,
One of the questions for the survey of 80% not truly saved believing that they are was,
“Is it ever ok to lie/be deceitful”.
You know those – as some people say (white lies).
Kaleb Ykowski
Wow
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter Judas?
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
Are you just not reading what I post.
Or do you truly not understand (demonology)?
Maybe you did not understand the rules of the game.
I said “A Believer at the time of being a believer, was taken by satan at his will against their own will and then them made to act contrary to Christian behavior”.
You answered
Judas.
(LoL)
Let me yet again give you this one;
JESUS your Saviour,
the one you are following that you are called a Christian after said concerning Judas;
John 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Jesus said that Judas IS “LOST”.
(Judas was called by Jesus The son of perdition).
What does that mean exactly?
Well the son of perdition in another scripture is given these qualities;
2 Thessalonians 2:3-4
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Man of sin, (opposeth God). Wow.
Sounds like what Jesus said to another group here;
John 8:41-44
Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Now the question would be when Judas did the deeds he did and why;
Mark 14:10-11
And Judas Iscariot, one of the twelve, went unto the chief priests, to betray him unto them. And when they heard it, they were glad, and promised to give him money. And he sought how he might conveniently betray him.
(Judas, not a spirit, devil, demon within him).
Matthew 26:14-16
Then one of the twelve, called Judas Iscariot, went unto the chief priests, And said unto them, What will ye give me, and I will deliver him unto you? And they covenanted with him for thirty pieces of silver. And from that time he sought opportunity to betray him.
Here is a thought,
Jesus addresses him as Judas and as a friend (not as He did Peter with – get thee behind me satan –
Matthew 26:47-50
And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people. Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast. And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.
And Jesus said unto him,
Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.
Now Luke says satan entered into him before he sought money to betray Jesus;
Luke 22:3-6
Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve. And he went his way, and communed with the chief priests and captains, how he might betray him unto them. And they were glad, and covenanted to give him money. And he promised, and sought opportunity to betray him unto them in the absence of the multitude.
1519 – into the intent of the mind.
But then we are told that satan entered into Judas (his heart – temptation) after the supper;
John 13:2 And supper being ended, the devil having now put
*into the heart* of Judas Iscariot, Simon’s son, to betray him;
We were told by Jesus way before we even discuss Judas and if he was a true believer that 12 were chosen and one IS A DEVIL; John 6:70-71 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
So you are going to have to pick someone other than Judas to try and prove your point.
Try Ananias and Sapphira
Or
Simon the sorcerer.
They would give us great discussions.
Harold E. Klump
Any body that is faking their relationship with God declaring themselves to be Christ like, when they are not born again, but trying to shack with God, God doesn’t shack up with nobody, Those folks can be possessed with demons, and devils, True born again children of God cannot be possessed with demons devils, The Bible (KJV) says we are sealed with the Holy Ghost until the end. demons and devils cannot cross the blood line of Jesus Christ. we that are born again are sealed with the promises of God.
David Lewayne Porter
Exactly, thank you my brother.
Varnel Watson
Sounds like OSAS – once sealed always sealed. What about Judas the apostle – was Judas not sealed?
Harold E. Klump
Jesus Christ said he never lost anyone Except Judas, that the gospel might be full filled as far as OSAS, you ask me a question, now let me ask you a question? Can you be born again from your mother? course not, nether can you be born again the second time, spiritually, and if God says you are sealed, you are sealed. you have any other questions about that ask God, or read your Bible.
Varnel Watson
Harold E. Klump As long as we agree that Judas was saved, elect apostle of Jesus Christ who was afterwords possessed by the devil… I rest my case
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day you can’t rest your case.
Was Judas a true believer/follower of Christ when (at the very point in time) that he betrayed the son of God into the hands of wicked men?
Your argument on him being possessed as a believer/Christian fails until you come to grip with that.
Are you a (OSAS)?
If so you make Jesus in John 17 a liar when he spoke of Judas being lost. That means you must not be what you say you are (a follower of christ).
Romans 3:3-4
For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea,
*let God be true, but every man a liar;*
as it is written,
That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter Luke 13:16 ► Then should not this woman, a daughter of Abraham, whom Satan has kept bound for eighteen long years, be set free on the Sabbath day from what bound her?” – Was she saved by covenant with God and still bound by Satan?
David Lewayne Porter
See, there you go deflecting.
You chose judas.
Handle him.
Your daughter of Abraham was a sickness, go read it.
It was not to the extent of ((possession)) as to behave in a mannerism contrary to her normal personality.
Varnel Watson
Good point, except you did not answer my question while freely talking about your possession – a term not found in the New Testament. The Bible uses the terms demonized and bound. So again – Was this woman saved by covenant with God and still bound by Satan?
David Lewayne Porter
First,
I did not have a “your possession”.
I was never possessed.
Was this woman s(h)aved by covenant with God and still bound by satan.
(LoL)
I don’t know if she was shaved or not.
I do know that you must come through Jesus to receive salvation, so was she s()aved and bound by satan?
Bound?
You mean not having a devil that effected her personality, but simply her body with a sickness vs12 – 769 feebleness of the mind or body, malady. Frailty, disease, infirmity, sickness, weakness. [Oppression. That word is biblical Acts,10:38].
I answered your (demonized)
They were said to have spirits or devils (definition interchanges devils, supernatural spirits, demons) 1139 – from 1142.
Also 1140 diety, devil – god.
(See screenshot)
**Exercised by a devil – meaning control by.
There is the difference made between possession and oppression.
You see, You have not addressed Acts 10:38 oppressed, 2616 – to exercise dominion against – not inside of, but over against.
If you can’t work that into your theology, and you have refused to even up til now, your theology is incomplete and incorrect.
You present your discussion as if you believe ALL devils are the same.
Not all spirits can invade/enter people.
Not all people can be entered/invaded.
Classes of spirits in the devil’s kingdom;
Ephesians 6:12-13 For we *wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against
*principalities, against
*powers, against
*the rulers of the darkness of this world, against
*spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that
*ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Next verse starts *STAND THEREFORE*.
Do yourself a favor and research the six places that the New Testament mentions principalities and powers together.
In the reference above we *wrestle against them*
We don’t lay down for them, we don’t just allow them, we don’t get controled by them at their will.
The referenced verses continues to say, *they we maybe able to *withstand* in the evil day, having done all to STAND, STAND therefore.
Does not sound like believers just roll over according to your thoughts and allow the devils inside.
That is what has to happen before a (fallen believer) could even possibly allow an evil spirit inside to where they are controlled – are out of their own control.
I am finished debating with you the twisted thought that possesses your mind that a believer can be possessed/controlled at the will of satan without us being able to do anything to stop him.
I wonder how long before your church members see their pastor controlled by a devil against his will manifesting in the church during service.
According to you it can and foes happen and you will be powerless to prevent it from happening. (Again this is your thoughts, beliefs, and thinking).
You act as though everyone must answer you yet you will not answer what is presented to you.
So are your members possessed?
Have you never read and examined Acts 10:38?
I have another series of questions for you on a reply just after this one.
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
Have you ever personally had to help one controlled by a devil get freedom?
No, don’t answer yet.
You see I mean under the influence of satan as the lunatic boy that the devil would tear him, throw him to the ground, into the water, and into the fire.
No, don’t answer yet,,,
I mean the two in the tombs that could not live among mankind due to their fierce violence.
No, not yet
I mean legion that was unable to be bound in chains, fetters, etc and was still uncontrollable.
(He was in such bad shape special note was made to when he was delivered he was CLOTHED).
And yet, the devil could not even leave the person and go to swine without permission from Jesus.
(Are we not now His Spirit filled agents operating as His ambassadors with His commission, power, and authority?
And you think satan and his devils can just have their way with us – believers.
You can look up those scriptures.
Now as far as me personally,
I have seen and handled,
(You know of the gentleman at my house and the dog had to be put down).
I have seen lights leave the body of people, go into walls, and laugh at the believer’s who aided their deliverance.
Green goo thrown up laying in the floor laughing and talking.
Black goo thrown up laying in the floor shaking talking.
Small bodied people trying to be restrained by multiple men 250# to over 300# and the gentlemen trying to restrain them getting thrown around as if they were lite weight pillows.
Voices non-human, and other things I will not even discuss here.
So have you Troy encountered devils that this kind cometh out but by prayer (and fasting) Matt 17:21 and Mark 9:29.
Until then, you can’t even begin to understand what I am saying, nor my understanding in this manner of spiritual activity.
The sad thing is
You think you have it all figured out and will have nothing to do with what God’s deliverance through Jesus is actually about.
My brother, until you can grasp that or are willing to listen.
I am done casting my pearl before swine.
Charles Page
Seems that a covenant child of God could be demonized upto the return of Christ in 70 AD
Varnel Watson
What spirit would possess a person to drink strong wine and then speak in tongues?
Dan Irving
If one reads the prophets, they will be impressed how they speak of all tenses of salvation and deliverance for Zion; past, present, future, continuous, etc. This seems to defy hard and fast rules. We come into the knowledge of God via deliverance from ours/his enemies. These are spiritual, and not flesh. But there does appear a danger in a doctrinal position that “Satan can never do (ect. ect), where God’s word does not expressly say he can never do etc., etc.
Lennie Marx
Troy, Read Acts 8 to help answer the question you are presenting! Any other questions!
Varnel Watson
What spirit would possess a person to drink strong wine and then speak in tongues?
Varnel Watson
Bro. David I will be happy to answer any of your questions on demonology I can from my ministry experience and years of theological education after church tonight, but here;s a few NT examples to consider:
1. Judas – an elect apostle of Christ was later possessed by Satan
2. The Corinthian church was ordered by the apostle Paul to 1 Corinthians 5:5 hand this man over to Satan – which tells us that not just a man but via sin whole churches (ecclessias) could be demonized
3. This goes with the theology of Apostle John who is the only one to mention the Spirit of AntiChrist in the New Testament and seems to be considering that many antichrist(s) have come out of the saved people in the (church) ecclesia. Not sure if you consider a person with the spirit of antichrist oppressed or depressed, but since such terminology is not Biblical we can most certainly consider them under the proper Biblical terms demonized and bound by Satan.
4. Apostle John furthermore calls one such gathering (ecclessia) the Synagogue/Church of Satan
5. In Revelation we read about Jazabel ruling one of the church. This is not just a spirit, but a spirit with Old Testament manifestation who is now prominent in a Christian church ruling over saved and Spirit filled people who are further commanded to hear what the Spirit is saying to the Church. Please note here that many theologians consider Jezabel to be the very much saved Lydia, Paul’s first convert in Philippi (Acts 16.14). The mention of Jezabel in Revelation has a further church / state apocalyptic political connotation, but we will not go that deep for now
Finally, virtually all demoniaks (demonized people) in the NT were in covenant with God (at least in one time). Some of them were even children which forgoes your whole statement about being saved (via a conscious decision of accepting Jesus in one’s heart), being under the blood (for they were all washed with lamb’s blood at the Exodus) or whatever churchified terminology may be used that has nothing to do with the actual language of the Bible.
Robert Borders who have studied demonology perhaps to the same depth as myself in the past 30 years have also shown supporting evidence from practice to much of the above. Many in this group who actually practice deliverance from demons in their ministry would also agree. But with all this and much more being discussed thus far, how exactly do you feel that my view on demonology and deliverance in the church differs from yours theologically?
Kaleb Ykowski
Hi Troy Day,
(1 John 2:18 KJV) Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
(1 John 2:19 KJV) They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
This shows that, although Judas Iscariot was among the 12 he was not of them. His heart was never there. And about that Corinthian being handed over to Satan, he is not being handed over to be possessed but to be disciplined, God being merciful, before there’s no return. This reminds me of Israel being chastised by God. Whenever Israel behaves God gives them prosperity yet when they rebel God sends the neighbors to whoop them in shape to come back to Himself. Same with our everyday lives. Things just won’t turn out right when I screw up.
(Leviticus 26:28 KJV) Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
Medo-Persia after Babylon reigned over the earth and the jews in the physical world, yet in the spiritual world a prince of Persia reigned and the angel was captured by him.
This tells me that Persia is not Israel and is not within or a part of Israel, but it can harm Israel from without.
So those persons were never loved the Lord with their heart, mind, and soul. They were simply infiltrators who were inwardly wolves and outwardly sheep and Judas Iscariot is a prime example. Jesus knew his heart was not for the poor when he loathed the perfume being poured on the Lord’s feet.
Dan Irving
A member of the body of Christ may certainly come under bondage to demonic control when he/she does not resist temptation and rather indulges the flesh, covetous desire, egotism, etc. Why else would Paul warn us against coming under Sin’s dominion by not resisting such things? (Rom 6:14) In fact, the ministry is particularly susceptible to falling prey in this way, being given over to excited lusts, greed, or and/or vain-glory, only to be placed on public display as a trophy of the Devil and a slander of the faith. (Do I need to name names?)
Varnel Watson
There you go Dan Finally someone that makes sense for the ministry. Saved – tempted – fallen in temptation – fallen from grace – bound and eventually possessed but still called Christian, still member in the church, still on the pastors council and God forbid still “operating” a previous spiritual gift like did Jezabel. And then we wonder why demons manifest themselves in church while we preach the Blood of the Eternal Son of God from the pulpit… #noughsaid
David Lewayne Porter
Right there Troy Day.
Right there,
Allow me to use your words.
FALLEN FROM GRACE!
and YOU say still a christian – show that in the Bible.
Why do you think Paul said to turn such as one over to satan?
Paul had enough sense to know that it was not to be so.
As far as still operating a spiritual gift – I guess you think satan’s soothsayers are using God’s giftings?
I guess you thing those possessed speaking in false tongues,are from God?
And jezebel operating in a “spiritual gift” – not from God.
As far as still “CALLED” – I love the fact you phrased it that way, (c)hristian (by whom)?, still a member of the church – shame on the church, still on the pastors council – glad you have finally shown your true sources – extra biblical,
And you still don’t get what is truly happening with devils manifesting themselves in church while – true believing pastors preach the blood of the Eternal Son of God from the pulpit….
LoL, most of those I have helped to be delivered have not been during church services.
Maybe you missed this,
Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Did Jude call them brothers?
Did Jude call them Christians?
Did Jude call them believers?
But you do?
I wonder why?
I wonder why you can’t discerning that they may be AMOUNG us but are not OF US,
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Continuing…
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
BUT it seems once you get their name on your roll you keep them at all costs…
I wonder why.??
1 John 2:19
They went out from us,
*oh, they may be on your (paper) roll.
but they were not of us;
*name on the book of man, holding offices but NOT OF US… WOW,
for if they had been of us,
*they would no doubt have continued with us:
sounds like (they that endure to the end….
Or the overcomes of revelation chapters 2 and 3.
but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
* manifested to not all have been of us,
And yet the church tries to keep them and justify them.
Keep your 30 years of experience,
It can’t help me in bringing any one true deliverance.
Street Preacherz
I submit this for the sake of discussion. I don’t claim to be a theologin.
Pentecostals still believe that one can be demon possessed? “One” being defined as a member of the human race. Yes. “Possessed” being controlled by evil spirits. Yes. However, if I steal my neighbors my neighbors bike. I possess it. I control it, but I don’t own it. It’s not mine.
This is an example. I was preaching on Milwaukee’s fashionable East side. One Muslim wanted to beat me up, his friend intervened.
At the same time an ambulance drove by and was using their speaker system to growl, “praise satan.”
This is a fine company. Well respected and very professional. The ambulance driver actually went around the block and came back with ice cream music playing to drown out the preaching. The man, the ER guy, is one of an elite. Generally speaking E.R. people are conscientious and caring people. They are the type that don’t even get a parking ticket. Good people.
However being a slave to sin and a child of darkness, an evil spirit was able to “pull his strings.” If his boss was there or his mother or some other restraining power was there he would not have acted this way.
It was so bizarre my friend who was with me asked, “what just happened” I said, God just exposed the devil.
There is alot of evil in this world some of it is undercover. People living what they think is a good moral life will act out when confronted with the gospel of Jesus Christ. And spirits in hiding can only be exposed by preaching Jesus Christ. Demons must be confronted and exposed. It is possible to preach with boldness and kindness. authority and compassion. And to be direct without being rude.
The short answer is yes. Absolutely people in modern times can be controlled and possessed by demons.
Varnel Watson
2 Pet. 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
David Lewayne Porter
How are they worse off Troy Day
If they are still (now) a believer and christian?
Your argument defeats itself.
Street Preacherz
Tis grace hath brought me safe thus far. Tis grace shall lead me home!!!
Kaleb Ykowski
(2 Peter 2:1 KJV) But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Street Preacherz
It is unfortunate but true. The devil knows his Bible and can quote it. A stack of Bibles under their arm dies not make them devout, pious, or true. Have you read “screwtape letters?”
David Lewayne Porter
Right there Troy Day.
Right there,
Allow me to use your words.
FALLEN FROM GRACE!
and YOU say still a christian – show that in the Bible.
Why do you think Paul said to turn such as one over to satan?
Paul had enough sense to know that it was not to be so.
As far as still operating a spiritual gift – I guess you think satan’s soothsayers are using God’s giftings?
I guess you thing those possessed speaking in false tongues,are from God?
And jezebel operating in a “spiritual gift” – not from God.
As far as still “CALLED” – I love the fact you phrased it that way, (c)hristian (by whom)?, still a member of the church – shame on the church, still on the pastors council – glad you have finally shown your true sources – extra biblical,
And you still don’t get what is truly happening with devils manifesting themselves in church while – true believing pastors preach the blood of the Eternal Son of God from the pulpit….
LoL, most of those I have helped to be delivered have not been during church services.
Maybe you missed this,
Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Did Jude call them brothers?
Did Jude call them Christians?
Did Jude call them believers?
But you do?
I wonder why?
I wonder why you can’t discerning that they may be AMOUNG us but are not OF US,
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
Continuing…
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
BUT it seems once you get their name on your roll you keep them at all costs…
I wonder why.??
1 John 2:19
They went out from us,
*oh, they may be on your (paper) roll.
but they were not of us;
*name on the book of man, holding offices but NOT OF US… WOW,
for if they had been of us,
*they would no doubt have continued with us:
sounds like (they that endure to the end….
Or the overcomers of Revelation chapters 2 and 3.
but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
* manifested to not all have been of us,
And yet the church tries to keep them and justify them.
Keep your 30 years of experience,
It can’t help me in bringing any one true deliverance.
Dan Irving
But what does that phrase mean, “they went out from us?”
David Lewayne Porter
Dan Irving
Context of the set of verses,
From us (verses) of us.
They did not continue – with us.
((Notice *us* used verses *they*)).
The meaning and purpose of they – went out – to manifest that they were NOT OF US.
Simple enough for anyone with eyes to see and ears to hear.
Matthew Henry commentary says this,
Some account of these seducers or antichrists. 1. More positively. They were once entertainers or professors of apostolical doctrine: “They went out from us (1 John 2:19), from our company and communion;” possibly from the church of Jerusalem, or some of the churches of Judea, as Acts 15:1, Certain men came down from Judea, and taught the brethren, &c. The purest churches may have their apostates and revolters; the apostolic doctrine did not convert all whom it convinced of its truth. 2. More privately. “They were not inwardly such as we are: But they were not of us; they had not from the heart obeyed the form of sound doctrine delivered to them; they were not of our union with Christ the head.” Then here is, (1.) The reason upon which it is concluded that they were not of us, were not what they pretended, or what we are, and that is their actual defection: “For, if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us (1 John 2:19); had the sacred truth been rooted in their hearts it would have held them with us; had they had the anointing from above, by which they had been made true and real Christians, they would not have turned antichrists.” Those that apostatize from religion sufficiently indicate that, before, they were hypocrites in religion: those who have imbibed the spirit of gospel truth have a good preservative against destructive error. (2.) The reason why they are permitted thus to depart from apostolical doctrine and communion–that their insincerity may be detected: But this was done (or they went out) that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us,.
Dan Irving
This whole line appears an apples-to-oranges deflection in the argument. The original question was whether a Christian could be demonically bound. And now, we are somehow involved in an explanation of antichrist. This is unfortunate, as I see a potential of unrighteous judgment by mixing these two very distinct principles. I might not have “ears to hear,” but I think I have logical sense.
David Lewayne Porter
We got here because Troy was trolling with his original post.
It was intended to get us to (can a believer be demon possessed)? As discussed by Troy many times before.
The antichrist(s) was brought in to show that not everyone who calls themselves christians, and not everyone considered by others to be Christians are.
That being said,
If one considered christian is (possessed to where they lose control over their faculties and selves) then they may very well be possessed, but they are not at that moment a believer/Christian according to the biblical standard.
There are the apple to apples and orange to oranges.
No deflection, it is called rightly dividing.
Varnel Watson
Straw man technique as well – trying to prove an argument that no one is really arguing . Like some imaginary difference between possession and oppression that is not in the Biblical text and Jesus himself never addressed. When Jesus met a demoniac (demonized person) He never conversed with them if they were saved or in covenant or did they just made sacrificed and were under the blood of the sacrifice. It was namely because they were Israelites in a covenant relationship with God by birth, that Jesus simply cast the demon out. Period!
As many times as we have had demon or demons manifest themselves during preaching or altar call, we did not ask if they saved or baptized. It was irrelevant. The Great Commission commands to cast the demon out regardless if the person is saved or not saved. If I get more time in the next few days I will share a few notable cases from our deliverance ministry just as a practical application. And as a reference that the whole thing about possessed/oppressed or saved/not saved is not even a question when a demonized person attacks you physically during prayer and an immediate response is needed. The possessed/oppressed or saved/not saved is an argument from silence that is simply irrelevant. Now this is what Jesus actually said about the real way demons operate. One can interpret if the clean house is a saved person or not:
Matthew 12:43. “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none.
44 “Then he says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order.
45 “Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it also be with this wicked generation.”
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
You were the one asking if a christian and believer could be demon possessed.
Did you not?
I said they could not.
I agree that when a person in the church manifest a devil, it needs to be addressed.
My statements were directed as to you saying a believer could be.
Here is the question for you concerning this post.
If you don’t ask if they are saved
If it is irrelevant – and it is,
Then you still don’t know if a believer can be or is possessed.
That is my point.
Street Preacherz
Thank you for standing up for deliverance. Jesus was and is an exorcist. Casting out the t.v. is not as meaningful as it once was with media so readily available on our phones. But it’s a good start. The t.v. is a one eyed demon!!! LOL
Charles Page
Even with pre-mil /dipsy I still didn’t get into deliverance ministry
More psychological than theological
Robert Borders
Generally true but occasionally run into the real thing. Actually often a combination of both and counseling is often need with and after deliverance.
Charles Page
It does draw a good audience
Street Preacherz
It’s a sad day when people don’t get the help they need in the house of God. Especially when they want help and seek God for help. Do you say Let’s fight this evil together or, comeback after you see the psych?
Varnel Watson
The sad day is when the Great Comission turns to a Great Omission because too many preachers theologize instead of praxticing the Gospel
Charles Page
Good clichés
Varnel Watson
What spirit would possess a person to drink strong wine and then try to speak in tongues? Alan N Carla Smith
Charles Page
Same Spirit Christ had
Street Preacherz
When a grown man looses his mind it’s no cliché. Jesus is the same yesterday today and forever! There is no health like mental health! !!! I know I’m ignorant and foolhardy but people need help and Jesus can help them!!!
Charles Page
Are there pigs in the church’s parlor?
Robert Borders
Or in the pulpits?
Varnel Watson
Did the parlor in the book with the same name about the church or the home? Watch out Robert Borders they will eat you alive if you suspect that a preacher is controlled by a demon and speaks demons. Hence the relevance of spirit of antichrist in church today Dan Irving
Street Preacherz
Dearest Pastor with all due love and respect. The doors are always open to those in need of Christ His mercy grace peace and TESHUWA. from proverbs 21:32 translated safety, salvation, deliverance, victory, gotta run,
… much love bro joe
Street Preacherz
The devil will help you sing amazing grace.
Varnel Watson
I don’t necessarily disagree with what you last said bro. David. I will share several cases that have actually happened to us in services around the world and cannot be put in the boxed theology of believers can or cant or whatever. Demons spoke through people attending church during preaching and prayer and they had to be cast out much like in the times of Jesus. Several attacked physically to the point of having to be restrained. I did not have a way of knowing if the people demons manifested through were truly and entirely saved and had no time to inquire. We simply cast the demon/s out. You may agree with me that asking a question concerning ministry is neither sin nor a statement. We are all searching for the truth here (I think) http://www.pentecostaltheology.com/dealing-with-demonic-powers/
David Lewayne Porter
You see,
Troy Day
Now that is what I have been trying to get to.
“Demons can and will speak through people attending church…..”
I simply stated that a true Christian /believer can’t be possessed of a demon/devil.
How many times did I say that brother?
And you would reaffirm a statement as if just because someone was standing in the church they were a true believer and can manifest evil spirits.
No more, no less
My stance
A true saved believing Christian can not be (at the same time) Possessed with a devil/demon.
It does not matter if they are in the altar, church, during service or not, or as most of the ones I have dealt with,
Out side the church.
Short simple, my stance – biblically.
No more to say.
I can’t state it any more plain.
Charles Page
I had two distinct cases where it was said the person was demon possessed In neither case did I discern demon possession. But the people around then said they were possessed. They wanted a deliverance. I never did a deliverance but did oversee the ones who attempted deliverance. No demons were cast out. There were none to exorcise!
I was honest and sincere so I was left with the accusations that I was hindering because I was not believing. That is a poor reason for why they were not delivered from demons. Five hours and two boxes of kleenex and still no deliverance.
Now as a pastor if I had left there would have been a deliverance!!! No, I said I am staying for the whole session and no deliverance. Experientially, that is reason enough for me. It does not work.
Charles Page
It is group manipulation and control. Say it over and over and the crowd will believe you and after the eventual convulsions from throat breathing some phelm will be produced and a kleenex will display the demon.
Varnel Watson
David Lewayne Porter Would you pls repost your experience with demonized people. I’ve looked for an hour and could not find to re-read it. Thanks
David Lewayne Porter
Now as far as me personally,
I have seen and handled,
(You know of the gentleman at my house and the dog had to be put down).
I have seen lights leave the body of people, go into walls, and laugh at the believer’s who aided their deliverance.
Green goo thrown up laying in the floor laughing and talking.
Black goo thrown up laying in the floor shaking talking.
Small bodied people trying to be restrained by multiple men 250# to over 300# and the gentlemen trying to restrain them getting thrown around as if they were lite weight pillows.
Voices non-human, and other things I will not even discuss here.
Shortened version,
A young man came to my house (in my yard) for counseling, due to sensing something was not right my wife and I pressed him on the point. Spirits manifested. Over a few minutes he was saved, sanctified, Holy Ghost filled with the evidence of speaking in tongues. At that exact moment the neighbors loving collie ran up to the property line growling, snarling, foaming at the mouth. We wrestled it down in old quilts and took it to the animal shelter. We checked a few days later and they said she had to be put to sleep due to being too aggressive.
Charles Page
fantasy, illusions and hysteria!
David Lewayne Porter
No, not at all.
Glad you were not there Charles.
I would have given you your leave.
David Lewayne Porter
I have also had situations in reverse of Charles.
I discerned at two different times (in church services) those needing deliverence.
In one case the lady never got born again and died in an accident in a state of adultery.
The other was a young man who left the service still bound and he hung himself two weeks later.
In both of these cases the church leadership thought I was just looking for devils and would not let me handle the situation at hand.
Troy
There are no points that are always there.
It takes the leading of the Holy Spirit as well as wisdom, knowledge, and discernment for each and every person, situation, and
(spirit / demon / devil).
Respect to you brothers.
Charles Page
respectfully I disagree, I agree with your leadership then.
Varnel Watson
We were ministering on an island the name of which I will not reveal. Held 25 services in two weeks in various locations some connected directly to Bible events. On the last day we held a larger event with some 600 people in attendance. Many of them ministers with their families were seated on the front roads. The service went on for about 4 going on 5 hours with several speakers. We ministered last and opened the altars. As soon as we began praying for unsaved people in the community / island a young girl who has been sitting on the front, singing during worship and so on screamed with a horrific voice and charged the pulpit. The lady next to her later said the body of the girl swarmed like a snake. Three ushers about my size tried to restrain her with no success but holding her back for a short time. She then took a chair and attack all 3 at the same time holding the chair as a weapon – legs pointing at them and hitting them in the chest until pressed to the wall. At which point were able to approach command the demon out and watch her body follow the same motion as before but now on the floor. No understandable words were heard but the screams were simply blood thickening. Whole thing lasting under 2-3 min. after which she quieted down, some ladies proceeded to pray with her and we prayed for a number of new souls never seen anything alike and scared beyond themselves. When she came to herself she was completely normal with no memories of what happened.
Now in the aftermath, we were approached by one of the ministers in the crowd who was her pastor. The girl, obviously not a hard core sinner, came from a family associated with occult (her grandmother, aunt and maybe sister). The mother has reported similar accidents but never manifested in church before. The girl was saved, regularly attended church with her family and occasionally was on the praise team; which dully brings the question about deliverance of the believer after salvation. Some may even see this as part of Wesleyan sanctification and renewal. But if nothing else, it bids the question as per the possibility of such occurrence among (dare I say saved) believers within the church. Terry Wiles Robert Borders David Lewayne Porter
David Lewayne Porter
Then you would except the fate of them going to hell and their deliverance was within reach of your hands?
Please explain why Charles Page.
I am free from the judgement of them not being delivered, leadership will answer for it on that day.
Charles Page
David, if I believed as you do I also would be bearing that heavy burden (that men lay upon you)
David Lewayne Porter
I am not bearing a heavy burden,
It is on them, I was not in control of the service.
So
Charles Byrd
Why would you not have lifted a hand to lighten their burden and offer deliverence?
Charles Page
They didn’t have demons to be delivered from.
David Lewayne Porter
Charles Page
You amaze me. You shouldn’t, but you do.
I am so glad that I don’t have to be subject to your error.
Charles Page
David Lewayne Porter that works the same with me!!!
Charles Page
How deep and how wide is the love of God who can discover the width and depth of our wonderful God.
David Lewayne Porter
Charles Page
I
Me, myself can discover the width and depth of God’s love.
But in addition to your two dimensional love of God, my God’s love is breadth, length, depth, and height.
Why?
Because I am part of the church.
Ephesians 3:18-19
May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
May God bring you up to that level so you come behind in nothing concerning God’s goodness.
Charles Page
David Lewayne Porter your prayers to that end are encouraged. I too will pray for you and our prayers will be mutual.
David Lewayne Porter
You’s so funny.
David Lewayne Porter
Troy Day
Accord to scripture
The young lady’s experience would have to be examined on two counts
1) if she was truly saved, not just saying words from the mouth, but believing with the heart.
2) what happened recently in her life just before that service occurred to trigger the change?
One of those two happened.
You see, those around her may have thought she was saved (she could have as well), and the spirits just stayed underground , hidden. Jude talks about those -professing salvation coming in unawares being ungodly.
I ask,
How could she be in that state in her home church under her home pastor with believers and it took a service elsewhere to reveal what was hidden at home.. (?).
It is because the territorial spirits – like the prince of Persia in Daniel over a specific area. Being in a specific area the spirit was not prepared for those ministers of God coming in from other places who mix things up bringing fresh differing understanding the spirits can’t handle.
I have a friend that travels to Africa often who tells of occurrences like this.
It is almost common place.
Thousands a night getting saved, healed, delivered, Spirit filled.
Another point.
I have had times we held people down and wrestled them.
I don’t any longer.
Jesus did not wrestle spirits down or hold them when He casted them out.
It shows a lack of understanding of our commission, ability through Christ, authority, and the power through the work of Jesus.
We yet again need to revisit the miracles of Jesus and the disciples.
(Those wrestling the devil lost – they were the seven sons of Sceva).
Varnel Watson
In the testimony of her pastor, truly saved and clearly showing sings of Christian living. The church she belonged to for several years was branch of the church where we ministered (same organization different city location) And yes I have other even more drastic first hand experiences from deliverance ministry… How do we justify all that with Biblical demonology?
And an important point you are making. How do we make sure people who are getting saved are also delivered from demons / generational curses? Do we pray for this by default or should all these come out in entire / progressive sanctification ? Does progressive sanctification allow for any such incidents to occur in any given point of the life of a saved Christian until complete cleansing is reached ?
David Lewayne Porter
Possession is not handled in sanctification.
It is a salvation issue.
I hate to call into question her pastor, but satan is tricky and has wiles.
Sometimes we believers and ministers see and wish the best when it is not there.
A group of us – 3 ministers, the two parents, and a couple laity were casting devils out of a young woman. It seemed as though she had been delivered. The others in the group were greatful and relaxed. I discerned differently and addressed the person again calling forth the devils.
The devil’s looked at me and said, “shut up, why don’t you go somewhere else, you know too much, we can fool them why can’t I fool you?”
Two other devils were casted out and True salvation occurred.
The others in the room questioned how and why only I knew. They wondered why they missed them.
They discerned the others, how did they miss the last two, the most powerful two.
You see, devils will not manifest unless threatened, angry, or needing to act out for other reasons.
Jesus spoke of the strong man of the house.
Matt 12, Mark 3, Luke 11.
Luke 11:21-22
When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
Mark 3:27
No man can enter into a strong man’s house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
Here is a question,
If we are Christians then Jesus (the Spirit if God’s Son) dwells in our hearts. He is then our strong man.
Can satan enter in unless he binds Jesus our strong man.
If Jesus is bound by another spirit inside of us, are we then true believers and Christians?
Will Jesus stay in a house where He is bound?
Now let’s reverse that.
As Luke continues the thought to those possessed with devils and them being freed
Luke 11:14-26
And He was casting out a devil, and it was dumb. And it came to pass, when the devil was gone out, the dumb spake; and the people wondered. But some of them said, He casteth out devils through Beelzebub the chief of the devils. And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven. But he, knowing their thoughts, said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and a house divided against a house falleth. If Satan also be divided against himself, how shall his kingdom stand? because ye say that I cast out devils through Beelzebub. And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your sons cast them out? therefore shall they be your judges. But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. * When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.
* He that is not with me is against me: and he that gathereth not with me scattereth.
*When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out. And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished. Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.
Ok
1) Jesus enters by binding the strong man and spoiling satan’s goods – us and his control on us.
2) Jesus then said we are for Him and with Him and gather, or we are against Him and scatter.
– we can’t do and be both.
3) the unclean spirit Goes Out of a man – it just does not decide to leave, it expelled by Jesus moving in?
4) he (the evil spirit) returns to find it swept, garnished – notice swept garnished, but it does not say filled. It can only return to an uninhabited dwelling place..
5) so he goes and gets seven more
Wicked than himself – he could not get back in by himself even with it not being filled. He could not hold his house alone. They enter in and dwell – inhabit, live there, abide/abode. (See note on Revelation later in the thread).
6) the last state is worse than the first – how is the last state worse than the first if Jesus is now there (or for the sake of conversation – if Jesus is there also)?
Dual habitation between Jesus’ Spirit and a devil makes no biblical or theological sense.
I would also examine (continued from point 5 above)….
Revelation of John 3:19-22
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Jesus will come in and sup with us and us with Him;
After His chastisement due to Him loving us, after we are zealous and REPEAT, after we *hear His voice and we *OPEN the door.
I do not see where an evil spirit is invited at the same time. (it was written to the church), we are the church.
I believe complete cleansing deals with the “every weight” in Hebrews chapter 12 verse 1 in addition to the “sin”.
I do not from my biblical study or personal application of the same see that applied to possession.
Just my thoughts.
Varnel Watson
Many in these deliverance session are saved Christians and as Robert Borders pointed out some were known pastors from the area https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVG3ow2-MR0
Kaleb Ykowski
Hi Troy Day. Did these Christians have the Holy Ghost? I the thought of repented saved Christians possessed. Because someone who claims to be Christians does not make them a Christian. When I used to claim I was a christian when I was younger but i did not truly become a Christian until later – not that I was growing in faith, but that I did not truly repent of my sins in Jesus name until later. And it was after repentance that I was convinced in my heart that i was a follower of Jesus.
Kaleb Ykowski
Please think about this; many so called christians today practice magic, they Play with the ouiji board, they look at tarot cards, practice “white” magic because it’s “good” magic. Or after church they go off and do things that are foul. So you don’t see these things when they are standing in front of you, but only the “Christian” stamp on the forehead. I don’t understand how in 30 years you cannot see and discern that difference. I don’t mean that in a negative way I promise. but I wonder because it’s quite easy to tell if someone is walking with God or not, if they are believers or not – these are elementary to the way of the cross. We should know that believers do fall, and that is something we all go through, but there is world’s of difference from a believer and a claimer.
This video doesn’t come close to what a possessed person would act like.
But there is a false Holy Spirit floating around these days though in some charismatic circles. I have seen many of these in the churches first hand. It’s the uncontrollable jerking, laughing, weird noise making “holy spirit” that mocks God’s Spirit. Funny because these same bodily movements and noise they make are only a PG13 version of a possession. This new movement reminds me of the false spirits in revelation that Korn singer and some other celebrities are promoting.
Varnel Watson
Start watching after the 25th minute
David Lewayne Porter
It takes them 25 minutes to start to get people deliverence?
Troy Day
The one you told us about on the Island that was nameless, you said it was over in 2-3 minutes.
So
Ask yourselves why this took 25+ minutes, if it took at all.
David Lewayne Porter
Ok, where to start:
Being totally serious,
(So, going back 10 generations on both sides of the family) I thought the sins/iniquities of the Father was to the third and fourth generation – four times stated in the Pentateuch.
First time I have heard of some one casting a devil out of themselves – what about those that come out only by prayer and fasting?
Why are they laying on them and holding them down?
Jesus and the disciples did not.
Just the seven sons of Sceva did and they lost that conflict.
And the director of the prayer saying, “if I have dominated or controled someone in a wrong way”, (is there a correct way)?.
Anyone following this example is in serious trouble.
It is not even close to what I am talking about.
They maybe be Acts 10:38 (oppressed) but I doubt many if any possessions where casted out.
I would question any Acts10:38s.
Deliverance – delivered from themselves.
Wow, I would not be anywhere even closely associated with it.
Varnel Watson
Deuteronomy 23:2 “One of illegitimate birth shall not enter the assembly of the Lord; even to the tenth generation none of his descendants shall enter the assembly of the Lord.” – just think about the for a moment (1) how much do we really know the Word f the Lord, (2) how many today fall under curse we have today (3) how many such ;resent during worship without being washed in the blood (4) how does this affect them (5) how does this affect the church that allows / tolerates it
Jonathan Lambert
I will interject simple truth into this thread…first, the scriptures are clear that the “strong man” of the house will not co-habitate with another “strong man.” Therefore, to be both possessed by a demon and be the possession of Christ is not scriptural. Secondly, I have, through the name of Jesus and with the guidance of the Holy Ghost, cast out many manifesting demons over the years. Some have manifest in open, dramatic fashion, while others have begun to do so, at which time the Holy Ghost would simply speak to me to take authority over that spirit. In my own ministry I have never felt the need to physically restrain any person manifesting. However, we do find that there were times that Jesus cast demons out that were actively injuring those within whom they had taken up residence. It was recorded that the spirits “tare” them, and they fell down wallowing and foaming. I have personally witnessed this type of activity, and I have never ministered outside of the U.S. I have cast out spirits of infirmity in a Hospital room with the patient lying in the floor (where the spirit had thrown them), unrestrained. I have cast out spirits of the psychologically insane sort (don’t know how to label those) and seen individuals leave in their right mind. Most of these have happened within the last decade. There are prayerless individuals who do not believe that demon possession happens, but if ardent prayer leads the charge, there will be times when the church will find it necessary to cast out demons bent upon control. If we get too much human theology into this, we will find a way to explain it away. However, at the very best and most scholarly, we look through a glass darkly…
Robert Borders
Well said!
Lisa Hailey
Yes I’ve seen it!
Terri Tippins
I have seen a demon possessed young man rip a huge family Bible in half in Church. He then proceeded to vomit something green while praying for him.
Jeanny Calderón Kobeissi
Definitely!
Shane Snow
I saw a girl get possessed when i was a teenager but i didnt know jesus at the time so she was helpless, later i prayed for her daughter and a mirlce happened when i did know jesus, today i prayed for a chatolic ladie that i felt was having demons , she always wore a colorful dress or some robe or something but looked down trodden and in bondage, i asked father to cast out any demon in here today and when i went out by the lake she had on a clean black shirt and was walking her dog and actually looked differnt.
Scotty Searan
Yes
Varnel Watson
Some do Some dont Until they get into the streets of real ministry and they just dont have a choice to believe it Street Preacherz
Street Preacherz
We are generally well masked and medicated in America
Noel Letfore
The answer is yes
Varnel Watson
WOW Noel Letfore Just like that. Pls elaborate William DeArteaga do you see much demon deliverance at the prayer stations?
William DeArteaga
I did a prayer, very effective,of self-deliverance over a spirit of sexual fantasy that was bothering me several weeks ago.
Paul L. King
Believers can be “demonized”, oppressed, obsessed, or controlled by demons in their souls (mind, will, emotions, personality) and bodies, but cannot be possessed, i.e., owned by demons. The Holy Spirit dwells within the renewed spirit of a believer and demons cannot dwell within the spirit, the innermost dimension of a believer’s being. Most “deliverance” is not the need for casting out demons, but for binding demons, casting down imaginations, breaking strongholds, resisting the devil and bringing every thought captive to the obedience to Christ. Yes, there are times in which casting out demons is needed. The last time I actually cast out demons was in April while speaking at a West African church in the Bronx.
Anonymous
Yes
Anonymous
yes they do along with John Digsby and Skip Pauley on the pro-gay issue
Anonymous
Troy Day dont be jealous
Anonymous
Yes, the Greek word is “deamonize.” However, Demons cannot actually own a person’s soul. Ezekiel 18:4 says, “All souls are mine.”
Anonymous
Michael Chauncey no genuine born again believer can be possessed inside their body by a devil ! The Holy Ghost does not share residence!
A believer can be oppressed but never possessed!!!
Anonymous
Peter Kratofilow says who? Judas? Ananias and Sephora? Jezebel?
Anonymous
Troy Day Says the Bible ! Judas and Jezebel unbelievers before the Holy Spirit was given and no where does the bible say Ananias and Sapphira were possessed by a devil. Satan can oppress a believer and deceive them into believing a lie but he cannot take over their physical bodies as the Holy Spirit is inside them !
1 John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world
Repent of this foolishness !
Anonymous
Peter Kratofilow NO the BIBBLE does NOT say that – how about Judas? Ananias and Sephora? Jezebel? pls explain and let us know pls
Anonymous
Troy Day Already explained can you read with understanding?? Judas was an unbeliever a child of the devil , never saved and prior to the Holy Ghost being given . So yes he was could be and was possessed by Satan
Ananias and Sapphire were never possessed by Satan he never took control of their bodies but spoke to their minds and they allowed him through their own lusts to deceive them for money ..
again repent no genuine Holy Spirit sealed believer can have a devil enter their body where the Holy Spirit dwells and take over their bodies and control them .
again the Holy Ghost does not share residence with devils !!
Anonymous
People can be demon possessed, but sadly, I don’t think pentecostals stress the importance of exorcisms like Catholics do. (This is just an opinion, so please don’t read too much into it)
Anonymous
Justin Miller yesterday asked @everyone here
How many pentecostal’s here still believe in deliverance ministry?
Do you think it is lacking in our Churches?
Francisco Arriola said
Why have a deliverance ministry when we now have Door Dash and Uber Eats? to which John Mushenhouse complimented
Francisco Arriola Pizza deliverance too Frank.
Karsten Wille wrote
Effective preaching of the gospel, coupled with a vibrant programme of Baptism will put the gremlins outside the door.
and Dean C. Trivandian responded
It should be part and parcel of EVERY pentecostal church–if they truly believe in the Full Gospel, that is. Otherwise, they aren’t truly pentecostals at all and should call themselves something else.
though Christopher Wiles not Terry Wiles also stated
I believe in it wholeheartedly….the Pentecostal churches have lost their way when it comes to music, worship, how we handle demons, singles ministry….there’s alot that needs to be addressed
while Brett Dobbs wrote
I believe in deliverance and deliverance should be practiced. But I don’t believe in deliverance ministries.
to Steve Farrell brief remark
Brett Dobbs I too believe in God doing all sorts of miraculous exploits. It not a ministry, these signs are to follow ALL belivers.
and while Robert Cox stated
It is at my church
experts Isara Mo William DeArteaga Peter Vandever Philip Williams stayed out of it as Neil Steven Lawrence has been staying out of groups lately 🙂
Since this incident, I had to ask her not to come back to the church for a while and after that period of time she came back, we began working with her and the change in this woman is amazing. She is not perfect but she is nothing like what we first saw. God is so good!
Anonymous
Troy Day you might need to stop tagging me brother. I don’t know how you do it but please stop.
Anonymous
Muhumuza Herman Ngyendo sure, you are welcome to leave the group if you do not wish to be part of the conversation. Thanks and GOD bless!
Anonymous
Troy Day I don’t think he posted it in this group, but Peter doesn’t believe in deliverance ministry. I know more about what he doesn’t believe than I do about what he DOES believe. I know more of his “againsts” than I know about what he’s for.
Anyhoo ….
Anonymous
Troy Day I wish to be part of the group, but not on everything you post. Is the group yours?
Anonymous
Muhumuza Herman Ngyendo you can check this on your own. Not everything we post of course JUST the few moderator selected discussions each week. Once again – this is the internet with a platform called Facebook which works by the basic techniques called tagging. If you are really so bothered by tagging, simply get out of it and THANK
Anonymous
Troy Day you really want to go back and forth over a simple matter? It is not everyone who posts here that tags everyone brother. I am asking you not to tag me. That is all. It shouldn’t be so hard, should it?
Anonymous
Muhumuza Herman Ngyendo As administrator I moderate the discussion. You have a question or request, I politely responded to you with clarity. What is your intention behind this complain is unknown HOWEVER pls stop spamming the group with your personal issues and SIMPLY discuss the topic at hand. Thank you for your future consid.
Anonymous
I also would prefer not to be tagged in every post. Give it a break! Try to gain participation by being interesting rather than by tagging everyone!
Anonymous
we are all left to wonder as of WHY Justin Miller asked us this in the group
Anonymous
What is a demon?
Anonymous
Do Christians need deliverance from demons? In this practical, comprehensive handbook on deliverance, author and Bible expositor Derek Prince addresses the fears and misconceptions often associated with the subject of demons. Two members of the FLF , Don Basham and Derek Prince not only majored on shepherding practices but also pioneered dogma … For Prince , it was evidently true that most witches are women , and what he calls the ‘ Pentecostal witch ‘
Anonymous
Troy Day what is a demon?
It’s a simple question that must be answered. To properly answer your question, it is paramount to understand your understanding.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire the question is not mine but of Justin Miller I believe hes got a great point asking it and can explain it to you in mean time
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire I’ll answer because I’m interested as to where you are going with this question.
Simply answer
A demon is a malevolent supernatural entity.
Adding to that though
Satan and devil can be translated as “adversary,” and I think that’s primarily the goal of Satan and his demons. They are enemies of God’s plan, which we saw in Ephesians 1:9-10 (cf. Colossians 1:20) is to unite all things in Christ to himself. Since this union to Christ comes through faith in Christ, it seems that the highest priority of demons is to try to destroy faith—to stop unbelievers coming to faith in the first place and to lead believers to reject their faith
Anonymous
Roland Smith so would unclean spirits be a legitimate term?
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire I would say 100% yes
Anonymous
Roland Smith what is a spirit?
Anonymous
Roland Smith the reason for these questions is that Christendom tends to mystify so many things. We need to break them down to their core.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire oh I see, well I’m with you there a lot of Christendom does like mystifying such things.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire the non-physical part of a person which is the seat of emotions and character; the soul.
“we seek a harmony between body and spirit”
Is one definition, but that’s a hard one to
Answer actually, because most people think of a spirit as the soul of our bodies, or some supernatural entity ie an angel is a spirit.
But of course our spirit and our soul are not exactly the same thing.
God’s Holy spirit of course is a personality and a power to call on
Our spirit can determine our actions.
And that’s not our eternal Soul it’s our attitude.
So it can be our attitude and feelings also that we call spirit.
I guess.
Anonymous
Roland Smith very good, however I would split the spirit and the soul as the subconscious and conscious portions of our mind. The spirit is what gives the spark of life, your character, your attitude, the way you see yourself, others, and the world. The soul I would put as the conscious mind, your thoughts, plans, desires, Etc.
So if our spirit is our character and attitude, what is an unclean spirit? Remember when one dies their spirit goes back to God who gave it.
So that lets us know that an unclean spirit that is hanging around is something that God did not give.
Anonymous
Therefore if a demon is an unclean spirit, and an unclean spirit is a character & attitude that is not of God, and a Christian has a bad attitude and acts from an ungodly character, what does that mean, Troy Day?
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire You mentioned psalms 146:4
So I’m guessing you don’t believe we go to heaven after we die?
Anonymous
Roland Smith Psalm 146:4 is mentioning the first death before the resurrection. There is plenty of scripture that lets us know that those who die know nothing, are asleep, etc…. until the resurrection.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire OK then could you answer me this question.
If that’s true?
Then how does this scripture in
Mathew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Now if you believe in Hell to be the common term for the Grave and not an eternal place of torment whatever isn’t the question, the question is how can some thing be destroyed if its already gone away when we die?
And how would that be a threat! A warning to us.
Because even if spend eternal death in the Grave with no consciousness and are not aware of what’s happening to us, then where is the threat.
If I go now and seriously sin Kill, stumble others away from God, with no repercussions other than non consciousness, for eternity, then that’s no deterrent, a lot of people believe that’s what will happen to them anyway
So it’s not an incentive to stop sinning or whatever it is that God displeased with us for doing,
And whatever way you look at it, that scripture clearly indicates some form of punishment beyond death that we should and can fear and feel
So how do you answer my friend?
Anonymous
Gehenna is the word used for hell in that scripture. That was their trash pit where they burned all of their refuse. It was considered a Perpetual fire because they were perpetually adding trash to be burned. The trash itself did not burn forever, but was consumed, Flame and the worm did not die because there was always new trash being thrown in. This is the example given of the Lake of Fire into which death, hell, and the grave will be cast in and destroyed. Death, hell, and the grave are poetic parallelism for the same thing. The Lake of Fire, Gehenna, is the trash pit in which God will destroy everything that is corrupt. That is the second death. It is called an eternal death because there is no Resurrection from it. It is utter destruction.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire but that’s not what I asked you.
I know about the fire pits of Ghenna.
The literal place! And I know some religions use the argument you just came up with. To represent yje second death (Ie Jehovah’s Witnesses )
But that isn’t a threat so I face a second death so what? How is that a deterrent from sin? All you are saying is that my body and thoughts perish for eternity, well as I said that’s what people think will happen anyway, so whether it happens once or twice once now and again at the resurrection and Judgment by christ, I won’t be punished because I won’t be conscious to understand or feel that.
So if he puts Me to death twice or just the once the outcome is the same.
I have to be conscious for eternity to know that I’m being punished.
Otherwise wheres the incentive, especially if I was an atheist.
The worst thing that can happen according to your theory is that I die I then forget what I did because I’m not aware of the punishment, and then he resurrects me in the future tells me I’m not worthy of eternal life and puts me back to sleep for eternity, at which point
The punishment is gone from my mind!
So he destroyed my soul my mind and experiences all what you said was the soul, well that’s not a threat either as they were all ready gone.
Does that seem logical?
Anonymous
Roland Smith how is not being able to live forever not a punishment?
Anonymous
One of the biggest objections that atheists have to Christianity is that a God that punishes people with eternal torment is a psychopath and a masochist. There are quite a few former atheist who have changed their minds and embraced God once they realized that that punishment is final and not an internal torment.
One of the biggest detriments to Christianity is the sheer Joy so many exhibit at the thought of people they don’t like being subjected to eternal torment.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire what does Gehenna has to do with demons? John Mushenhouse
Anonymous
Troy Day it was the answer to a direct question, follow along. LOL
Anonymous
so Jared G. Cheshire seems like Roland Smith also disagrees with your stances and rightly so? They dont seem too theological for starters
Anonymous
Troy Day He was answering my question about what he said about the soul, we sort of got side tracked from the original post!
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire you also stated that — too bad people lack exegetical skills and are reduced to sensationalized eisegesis to promote their ministries, fill their lectures and sell their books. but I guarantee you that John Mushenhouse Roland Smith are not like that and though William DeArteaga does sell books and promote his classes it is NOT of the non-theological intentions you describe but it is purely theological you see https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/america-in-danger-the-demonic-as-historical-player/
Anonymous
Troy Day not theological or do mean not mystical?
Anonymous
this answers you theologically from the book by William DeArteaga https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/america-in-danger-part-i-conspiracy-theories-and-the-demonic-in-history/
Anonymous
Troy Day fortunately Roland Smith can disagree and still have a meaningful back and forth without resorting to ad hominem.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire a demon is a person without a body who is evil.
Anonymous
Judith Smith very close, but I think there is still a distinction between the spirit of a person who has died and an unclean spirit. Since God gave man his spirit it returns to him when they die. And unclean spirit did not come from God.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire because I’m not!! frightened of eternal death, and I don’t serve God simply cause I’m frightened of eternal punishment either.
(Although it does make me think more!
And is more of a reminder to me that I don’t want to End up there)
I serve God simply because I love him.
But I once feared eternal death, I was in a religion that tought what you believe.
I allowed my wife to have a blood transfusion and was told I wouldn’t get a resurrection, or I would be judged to be unworthy of eternal life at the Judgment!
But I carried on in that religion for a further 16yrs of my life, because I wanted my children to grow up knowing God and having a chance of eternal life on earth.
I knew that my life was better with him and following the bible than without him
I was convinced I had committed the sin of all sins and allowed my unconscious wife a blood transfusion, and definitely wouldn’t get a resurrection myself, she then died from her injuries a few months later.
But I weakened at that moment, I couldn’t go home and tell my children mummy had died because Jehovah didn’t want her to have a blood transfusion
So I weakened!
But I trusted God would be loving enough to guide me and look after me until I died, the resurrection wasn’t an incentive, eternal death was 100% accepted!! But i was at peace with that.
But most of all I wasn’t frightened of being asleep unconscious, because when we are we don’t know we are so what’s to be frightened off?
But I was pleased at that point that I didn’t at least have to spend my life in eternal torment, that was a weight off my mind.
So I just felt at ease continuing my life the best I could in God’s service.
Then something happened I prayed because after 19yrs in all in that religion
I could see they were wrong about so many things! Biblically and attitudes towards God.
So I prayed ask for guidance, and got more than I bargained for.
I’m going to digress a bit here, but please stay with me!
It changed my life from there on,
Gave me a new zeal in my faith, a different understanding, my life is more devoted than ever before to God, and I thought I was fully devoted then!
But that was nothing! Compared to now.
I left my old religion, become Born again and now I do nothing! Without I pray first, my life is smoother than it was, my Bipolar is completely under control for the first time in many many years
I have seen the power of God in my life, I have seen his power in other people’s
He has answered my prayers to the Letter, and only a few hrs after the prayer was asked.
So I know that as a Christian and continue as a Christian, not just going to church and going through the motions but have a very personal heartfelt love for Jesus, then whatever happens I trust God to not forget me, and my future is secure in Jesus Arms
But that also means that i know that God knows that some people are not frightened of everlasting death, because I was one of those people.
Physical death is nothing!
So if someone murders someone then they are put to death as well, and that’s it. Where the threat! Where is the Justice for the victims?
Just because God is loving, does not mean that he loves everything—there are some things that God doesn’t love, that in fact he hates. So he doesn’t love murder, or abuse, or selfishness, or pride. Actually, if he is loving, then he will hate these things. It wouldn’t be very loving of God to look at something like child abuse and say: “Well, I’m not really that bothered.”
So God is loving – and yet he doesn’t love everything.
And because this loving God hates bad things, he does something about it. And this is good news. We all have a kind of a sense of justice – so it’s good news that people who mistreat others are not allowed into God’s perfect kingdom, but are shut out—that is, they’re sent to hell.
It’s loving of a just God to hate and punish wrongdoing, so that only perfect things are in his perfect kingdom.
Now I guess not many of us have a problem with the idea of famously bad people facing punishment – but this actually leaves us with a problem too, because none of us are perfect. None of us have treated God, or treated each other, in the perfect way we were intended to.
If I’m honest, I know I haven’t treated people as I should. I’ve hurt people, I’ve ignored their needs, actually I’ve upset even some of the people I love the most. And I haven’t treated God as I should – as my Maker and my Creator, and therefore the ruler in charge of my life.
And so I deserve punishment of my wrongdoing too. We actually all deserve to be punished. We all deserve to go to hell. None of us are perfect – so none of us should be in God’s perfect kingdom.
Now as I say this, I know it’s not an easy thing to hear. It’s not an easy thing for me to hear. But just because we don’t like something, doesn’t mean that it’s not true.
And it’s not something that Jesus says flippantly or lightly, without caring. He doesn’t say it just to scare us. But he does say it to warn us – and to help us see how amazing it is that he offers us a way out.
Because this is the amazing news – that even though we all deserve punishment, even though we deserve to go to hell, Jesus – God himself – has provided a way out for us. He doesn’t do this by leaving things unpunished, and so forgetting about justice. He does it by himself taking our place; in his death taking our punishment and himself experiencing hell so that we don’t have to.
It seems to me as if this is a truly loving God. He loves the world enough to punish wrongdoing, and he loves people enough to take the punishment himself.
He loves us enough to give us a choice: we can ask him to be part of our lives now, and so avoid hell and look forward to enjoying his perfect eternal kingdom.
Anonymous
Troy Day Thanks Troy Day
Anonymous
Troy Day yes I do, do disagree with him I believe true Christians filled with pure love of The Lord can’t end up anywhere else its either heaven or Hell for us.
True Christians will be with Jesus in heaven, after all he tells us so, at John 14:2
he went and made way for us, in his father’s mansion and the rooms are many, so plenty of space for us all lol
I actually expected his answer almost word for word, when I asked him about his view on where we go after the physical body dies
However its been a good back and forth so far. I enjoy a good scriptural debate now and then.😉
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire what is a demon is the question I answered.
Anonymous
Judith Smith so you wouldn’t say a demon is a fallen angel? because angels are not people!
Anonymous
Roland Smith fallen angels are in Chains of darkness. (2 Peter 2:4, Jude 1:6) They can’t bother anybody. The unclean spirits are the leftovers of their Creations/offspring in Genesis 6.
Anonymous
Roland Smith; Jared G. Cheshire as Derek Prince puts it they are persons without bodies. Is there a difference between persons and people. If they’re not people, why do they have people names.
There are many different terms for demons. I don’t separate demons from fallen angels or unclean spirits, and what difference does it make?
Anonymous
Judith Smith Oh sorry my friend I sent that comment, it was shorter than I planned, I just wanted to clarify if that’s all you thought they were? But you have made it clear with you last reply.
Sorry I wasn’t being critical or even arguing as such, I ended up taking a phone call before I finished the comment, and now I can’t exactly remember what my thought was when I asked as such lol only that I wasn’t sure exactly what you were thinking in that regard.
But there was a point, to my question if only I could remember it🤣
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire yes I would to an extent agree with you, on that, but It’s not uncle Bill who passed away last night, and then his detached body soul as some believe a soul to be ( obviously not you lol) suddenly became a mischievous spirit, demon some call ghosts and poltergeist etc.
What I should have really said is did she not think it was the offspring of fallen angels? I unfortunately had a phone call
And sent it short without checking it made sense.
Anyway at least You have reminded me what it was I was asking her for in the first place lol.
Anonymous
Roland Smith lol, if Uncle Bill can be an evil spirit, I ain’t never going to another funeral. LOL
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire 😂
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire An evil spirit. A minion of the devil. They are in the devils army to steal, kill and destroy, which they target Christians to do.
Anonymous
Justin Miller that’s Catholic tradition of what they are, but where is the scripture that proves that?
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire Matthew 25:41.
Anonymous
Justin Miller G32 – angelos
ἄγγελος
Transliteration: angelos
Pronunciation: ang’-el-os
Part of Speech: masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology): From aggello [probably derived from ἄγω (G71), cf ἀγέλη (G34)] (to bring tidings)
TDNT Reference: 1:74,12
Outline of Biblical Usage:
a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God, by implication, a pastor:—angel, messenger.
G1228 – diabolos
διάβολος
Transliteration: diabolos
Pronunciation: dee-ab’-ol-os
Part of Speech: adjective
Root Word (Etymology): From διαβάλλω (G1225)
TDNT Reference: 2:72,150
Outline of Biblical Usage:
prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him
Where is that anywhere to say what you claim it saying? It doesn’t.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire
Not sure what you are trying to ask, but…
Army:
An army is an organized group of fighters, especially a country’s official military force. When a country goes to war, it sends an army to fight.
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:12
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire
Jesus cast out demons so did the early church .There is no Biblical record of how they look like but there is plenty of evidence how they react .
They speak ie they have ability to speak when in a person’s body .They cry out.They have eyes and ears (I can adduct) because they saw Jesus and reacted to His presence ,had exchanges with Him using human vocal.cords and “shrieked “.
Calm is the consequence of their departing a human body (The Gadarenes man /the lad who had seizures etc).
Demons are a type of lower spritual entities inhibiting human bodies.They have intelligence,will ,emotions,desires and have self awareness.Very knowledgeable even though they don’t have colleges thats why they knew the sons of Sceva were fake pastors and beat them up.
Simply demons are bodyless “people” or “persons” inhibiting the kingdom of darkness..some already in human bodies are most out there..
Are principalities authorities rulers of this dark world the same as “demons”?(Troy will help out).
Anonymous
Isara Mo
When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it: “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!” Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, “He is dead.”
Mark 9:25-26 NKJV
Now it happened, as we went to prayer, that a certain slave girl possessed with a spirit of divination met us, who brought her masters much profit by fortune-telling. This girl followed Paul and us, and cried out, saying, “These men are the servants of the Most High God, who proclaim to us the way of salvation.” And this she did for many days. But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.” And he came out that very hour.
Acts 16:16-18 NKJV
People who call deliverance a circus would certainly have opposed Jesus and Paul.
In Acts it says it came out that very hour, which means they had to work on that thing to get it out of there. It could’ve very well took 45 minutes for all we know. People don’t want manifestations or disruptions, they just want a touch and go you’re delivered prayer. They’re misled and have an improper understanding on how deliverance looks like and works.
Anonymous
Justin Miller making not just a few but MANY good points once again
Anonymous
Justin Miller been there done that. Had a guy who was possessed jump nude into the baptistry once. That was a struggle for about an hour after we got him covered. But they came out.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire If you watch Pastor Worley on Youtube you get many examples of what it looks like. Just look at the man in the Gadarenes, 2,000 pigs ran into the water and drowned, it caused a big scene that the people from the town had to beg Jesus to leave.
That’s good that he got delivered!
Anonymous
Justin Miller which Worley? I know some Worley’s in Texas.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire https://youtube.com/@WinWorleyMinistries
Anonymous
Justin Miller Pastor Worley is the MAN of the hour
Anonymous
Justin Miller
I.concur
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire
Win Worley ..the late Win Worley
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse The Biblical Guidebook to Deliverance was written by Randy Clark DMIN in 2015 to ACCESS GOD’S SUPERNATURAL POWER AND AUTHORITY TO DEFEAT THE DEVIL
Jared G. Cheshire The contributions in this volume, written by experts and practitioners from four continents, analyze these phenomena from the perspectives of intercultural theology, anthropology, and ethnology, and also describe the responses Witchcraft and Demonology in Ghana Opoku Onyinah. Derek Prince’s Contribution Consequently this sort of awareness had a great impact on the Ghanaian churches . Some people began to use these materials
Carmen Isaac Derek Prince also write there are pentecostal and charismatic witches asking which type is yours
In this book she presents a confrontational yet constructive word of warning to the contemporary Spirit-empowered movement. It is understood as caused by witchcraft employed by relatives or acquaintances out of envy or greed, or they may be seen as simply … C. Peter Wagner, Derek Prince, and Charles Kraft, the concept was not simply a U.S. export to Africa. Religious Dis/Continuity in African Pentecostalism Allan Heaton Anderson … the subsequent visit in 1987 of British Charismatic and deliverance preacher Derek Prince,31 and the many booklets of Nigerian “specialists” in deliverance
Anonymous
Troy Day -so — too bad people lack exegetical skills and are reduced to sensationalized eisegesis to promote their ministries, fill their lectures and sell their books. So many are lacking or have lost the everyday closeness of the presence of the Lord in their lives, that they are substituting the so-called sensational in order to try to see the presence of God. It makes them feel God is real. Seek the presence of the living Christ by prayer and bible study and there will be no need of this carnal side shows- Deliverance is real, but the self-seeking showtimes are far from Godly. People just don’t know the bible as they follow their traditions and cultures. It has become a formula for lost and bored people. Jesus is real and is the answer for such religious boredom. few go to Jesus as they seek religious thrills and entertainment. Shame on this culture.
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=7049185415095044&set=p.7049185415095044&type=3
Anonymous
YES John Mushenhouse how did Francisco Arriola got back in the mix? https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/jezebel-spirit-and-christian-witches-in-the-church/
Anonymous
Troy Day ask him.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse well Francisco Arriola is hit and miss
Neil Steven Lawrence brought him into our group
he participate once per year or less…
Anonymous
I thought all Christians was supposed to be in the deliverance ministry 😂
Anonymous
Bruce Weeks they are.
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire which ones in particular do you mean? Two members of the FLF , Don Basham and Derek Prince not only majored on shepherding practices but also pioneered dogma … For Prince , it was evidently true that most witches are women , and what he calls the ‘ Pentecostal witch ‘
Anonymous
Troy Day why can’t you answer a question directly. The sheer volume of words that you use to avoid a direct question is astounding.
Matthew 6:7 NASB95 — “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.
Proverbs 10:19 NASB95 — When there are many words, transgression is unavoidable, But he who restrains his lips is wise.
Ecclesiastes 5:3 NASB95 — For the dream comes through much effort and the voice of a fool through many words.
Anonymous
Bruce Weeks you were right BUT are they as Jared G. Cheshire rightly expected NOW this is the other side of the matter at hand in this discussion https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/jezebel-spirit-and-christian-witches-in-the-church/
Anonymous
Troy Day appears to be your question to answer based on the evidence at hand.
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=819021442948277&set=p.819021442948277&type=3
Anonymous
I can say I believe with confidence that human beings were made in the image of God. What I’ve experienced in 38 years of ministry is that the effects on humans from the demonic world looks the same. Whether possessed, oppressed or suppressed by demonic activities it looks about the same on the world as well as the Christian that lets these rule their thoughts and life. The Christian certainly is given authority over the demonic world through The Cross of Jesus Christ, I’ve certainly been involved in casting out demons over the years. I don’t go looking under every bush for one, but they’re probably there 😂
Anonymous
it is NOT my question to answer Just be patient for Justin Miller to join back and he can clarify everything for you. My question is have you seen a Pentecostal witch or just posting verses again?
Anonymous
YES Jared G. Cheshire my question to answer is with the evidence at hand.
Anonymous
Bruce Weeks do you believe what Jared G. Cheshire wrote earlier
Anonymous
Two members of the FLF , Don Basham and Derek Prince not only majored on shepherding practices but also pioneered dogma … For Prince , it was evidently true that most witches are women , and what he calls the ‘ Pentecostal witch ‘ Philip Williams Peter Vandever Isara Mo William DeArteaga Neil Steven Lawrence
Anonymous
Troy Day the word Christian witches is an oxymoron! You cannot get both together!
Anonymous
Troy Day the idea that control=witchcraft makes no sense.
Anonymous
Link Hudson how so?
Anonymous
Troy Day there is no biblical basis for the idea nor is it intuitively obvious.
Anonymous
NOW then John Mushenhouse Neil Steven Lawrence it is pleasure to see again Francisco Arriola saying something in the group AFTER last saying something on January 2021 about Jeremiah Johnson’s apology. Since yall 3 seem to know each other from seminary pls tell us why this deliverance topic draws yalls attention so much ?
Anonymous
Troy Day simple it is religious entertainment and not biblical Christianity.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse then do you believe the Words in Red in your bible?
Anonymous
Eava Baca Currence there was no red ink in the autographs. I believe every word in the bible. I just think most of the so called deliverance is based on man and not the bible. I believe in casting out demons, but not the showtime of the deliverance man centered fakes.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse given they even know what the autographs are alongside Philip Williams discovery of NOAH with the dyno eggs do 7-daySDA believe the dynos were amalgamative deviation from the original creation Based on this verse, later Jews affixed Tefillin (תפלין) – small boxes containing biblical texts—to their hands and foreheads. In the Greek New Testament, tefillin are called “phylacteries” (φυλακτήρια; Matt 23:5), and observant Jews wear these ritual adornments during prayer to this day. Thus, from a Jewish perspective, it is immediately clear that the “mark of the beast” takes the place of the divine commands; to accept this mark is to reject the will of God.
Anonymous
“Demon possessed” is a mistranslation based on a pagan misunderstanding. But Christians CA have demons and the need to be delivered from them.
Anonymous
That’s what the church is lacking. They can preach, teach all day long, but if no one is being delivered then they must be lacking somewhere.
Anonymous
Christy Rakes If you teach preach the bible people would mature and seek to lead the spirit led life. No need for all the other stuff. People do like the sensational. –look up what a charge is – 4 I charge you [a]therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead [b]at His appearing and His kingdom: 2 Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry. 2 tim 4
Anonymous
eph 4:11-14 says to equip and teach. This has been neglected as people want to watch and be entertained it seems. This is what the church is lacking– 11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; –
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse not always true you can preach or teach the bible, and people may come to repentance, but still be demonically influenced. Addiction even over eating, fear, anxiety, bad thoughts that just pop in your head, or even getting mad over someone talking about churches needing to be delivered is all demonic. I guarantee some that even you try to teach, or preach to is still demonical influence and have not been set free!! The church needs deliverance not just the sinners.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Jesus was always casting out devils, and people were being delivered. He just didn’t go around preaching the bible he made the bible come to live with massive Deliverance.
Anonymous
Christy Rakes you missed the meaning of the scriptures to give your opinion. Jesus said in Matt 22:29 and I believe it applies to your two posts – 29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God.- Stop the repeating of teachings and let the Spirit change your thinking– Romans 12:2 — I see so little of the knowledge of the Lord in your statements Christy – do you do verse by verse scripture study –2 Peter 1:3 — Notice the words all things —
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,– Notice knowledge of Him – we do like spectacles.
Anonymous
Christy Rakes —Jesus was the word and mature in the word – I don’t see that today. I see people wanting excitement instead of biblical maturity. — acts 19 14Seven sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. 15Eventually, one of the evil spirits answered them, “Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?” 16Then the man with the evil spirit jumped on them and overpowered them all. The attack was so violent that they ran out of the house naked and wounded.… do you do verse by verse bible studies on a daily basis building yourself up in the most holy faith? Do you do exegetical work on the bible trusting in the Spirit of truth to guide you.
Anonymous
Sadly so few people actually study the bible. Heck most in the churches according to well know agencies doing surveys claim that few even read the bible. Most have never read the bible through. WE need (must) get back into serious studying of the bible . Hebrews 5:11-14 11 About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing. 12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, 13 for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14 But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil. — So many want to do all these sensational works. In my opinion the greatest work is having God change us through knowing and obeying His will that He has revealed in the bible. – I believe in it all including casting out demons, but too many are majoring on things which Jesus seldom taught about. What did Jesus teach in the gospels? What did the NT writers write about under the inspiration of the Spirit. Learn those things.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Brother I’d have to say otherwise. There are people who have been saved for 40 years up who have the maturity of a 2 year old Christian. It isn’t just because they aren’t being taught or preached to, it’s because there is a spiritual hindrance in their growth which is why they aren’t receiving the preaching and teaching. Transformation isn’t happening in their life because there’s underlying issues not always visible to the eye. Some spirits cause physical infirmities that even doctors cannot find the root cause.
Anonymous
Justin Miller back that up with scripture — you didn’t give one – all through the bible it says you will understand if you read it. I could care less or your opinion as I trust the word of God.
Anonymous
Justin Miller the truth is that they may be preached too but few preachers are doing expository sermons. Few have regular bible studies and few actually study the bible. Read Hebrews 5:11-14 and other passages. Plus prove what you wrote by the bible — crave the sincere milk of the word Peter writes and few do. Few know the difference between hearing teachings and having the spirit reveal. Read John 14
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Mark 5:1-20. I Don’t see anywheres here where this man was being taught or counseled. Sure he was sitting at the feet of Jesus, likely being taught scripture,, but that was after he was delivered.
Jesus didn’t just go to the Gadarenes to preach to the man there who needed help, the man wasn’t suffering from scripture deficiency. It was clear that he needed deliverance from evil spirits. You cannot counsel a spirit, or preach and teach it out, which is why so many churches are failing. Jesus, or Paul never counseled a demon out.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I understand we need those things, I’m not saying we don’t. But if the people are bound what do we need to do: preach more to them, or help get them delivered? (Isaiah 58:6, John 10:10, 1 John 3:8)
Most people aren’t maturing because they need demons cast out of them first before they’re able to excel further in their walk.
Anonymous
Justin Miller So many don’t read the bible and even more have never been taught how to study the bible. They either give their opinion as you did or take a verse out of context and use it as a proof text misapplied to fit their presuppositions , Now here is what the bible says and it is the exact opposite to what you have been taught by man. Argue it with the Holy Spirit or better still obey it. What is Peter saying here – as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow thereby, 1 Peeter 2:2 — what is the result from craving the scriptures – growth — Justin very few study the bible and so they make excuses for being ignorant and immature.
Anonymous
you have taken texts out of their context and used them as a proof text to fit what you have already believed instead of letting the bible teach you what it means. You have done eisegesis and not biblical exegesis. Justin do you on a daily bais study the scriptures in detail verse by verse. Does your church have verse by verse bible studies. Does your preacher preach expository sermons or do you just proof text.
Anonymous
Justin Miller The man already had the demon before he met Jesus. Don’t you see that. Jesus was just making the rounds. You are proof texting without even the slightest bit of knowledge what the bible is saying in context. Look at the pericope and then the entire context f scripture. The demoniac had not the opportunity to have heard Jesus. You are not thinking these proof texts through. You need to go somewhere that they will teach you how to study the bible and not just proof text out of context verses.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I believe that growth will happen by reading and studying. And I did not take any verse out of context, God’s will for believers is deliverance, and if deliverance isn’t being administered then you will get a church full of carnal Christians who won’t read their bibles, study, and be worldly because of the underlying spiritual issues they are dealing with, not because those things don’t work. Remember what the purpose of the devil is? Steal, kill and destroy. And how much does he love when Christians open a door (Ephesians 4:27).
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Yes, I know. But Jesus casted it out of him. You stated above: “No need for all the other stuff.” Are you against deliverance ministry?
If we’re not preaching deliverance, we’re not preaching the whole counsel of God. (Acts 20:27)
Anonymous
Justin Miller you totally did take it out of its context and you don’t have a clue what out of context is Justin. It is what you have seen in others and you do what you have seen. Justin start reading the bible and pray that your preconceptions get out of the way. Frankly you have done nothing but proof texted unrelated scriptures. Now please go and study verse by verse and get some help on hermeneutics. Read Gordon Fee on how to study the bible for all its worth.
Anonymous
Justin Miller yes Jesus casted it out but you are not grasping the bigger point. The man had the demon before he heard the word. Our subject is if you learn the word you won’t get a demon. You just are not following or thinking through. You just proof text without understanding. I am not insulting you either, but speaking the truth. You eed to learn how to study the bible andthen study the bible.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Show me what part of what I wrote that leads you to think I’m not grasping it?
Obviously he had a demon before that, obviously he was in a bad area where there was alot of disobedience (all of the pigs being kept) the people probably didn’t have a synagogue where he could be taught the law as if you look into archeological evidence of the Gadarenes there was eventually a church building constructed there (more than likely from him spreading his testimony).
Yes I believe if you learn the Bible you won’t get them since you will be growing, but I also believe keeping sin out will keep the demons out too, which is achieved by growing. However, just doing these things alone is not going to get rid of the already existing spirits in somebody, that was the whole point of what I posted.
Anonymous
Justin Miller where to begin – Justin the time to go on and for you to learn how to study the bible without your presuppositional teachings then read the bible.
Anonymous
Justin Miller read this but start to read the bible how it was written and not to find proof texts.— How to Read the Bible for All Its Worth:
by Gordon D. Fee and Douglas Stuart.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Where did I proof text and what did I teach contrary?
I just posted above what I was talking about.
You come across as being adamantly against deliverance ministry.
Anonymous
Justin Miller I am using the bible to promote fleshly exhibitions. I am for the biblical casting out, but I just don’t see many anointed casting out today. It is showboat entertainment. Justin learning how to read the bible in its context will teach you the same I firmly believe.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Well I’m right with you too that there isn’t much biblical casting out. That’s why I said that deliverance ministry is lacking in Churches. Most do use it for attention to promote their ministries which is unfortunately causing many to be against it.
Anonymous
Justin Miller you just don’t cast out because it is missing. You seek to build a foundation on the word so you can discern between right and wrong. Much of the correction in the Epistles was not casting out, but patiently confronting error and teaching the truth. Today we want sensational and not seeking to discern right from wrong. Hebrews 5:11-14 11 We have much to say about this, but it is hard to make it clear to you because you no longer try to understand. 12 In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God’s word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13 Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse You cast them out because Jesus said to (Matthew 10:8, Mark 16:17) not because it’s missing. It’s missing because of unbelief. That’s right we do need a foundation and churches should be learned and discerning. But on another note alot of Churches have that but they still don’t preach on deliverance and people are not getting free.
Anonymous
Justin Miller get the foundation of the word and then you will know true from false deliverance – plus with biblical ignorance in the churches we need to teach to bring folks into maturity. — Again if you have no biblical foundation preach on deliverance all you want, but are you getting it right. — Justin do you study the word verse by verse on a daily basis? Does your church have verse by verse bible studies? Does your preach expository or does he read a scripture out of context and give what he already believes on it. Please answer 1 Peter 3:15 tells us to.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I can tell a false deliverance from a real one, it isn’t that difficult, also just ask the person who got delivered. If they’re still struggling with the same issues they didn’t get deliverance, if nothing happened when someone prayed for them they didn’t get deliverance, if there is no change and they are not walking closer to God then they did not get deliverance.
Yes I do, and my Church does preaching and teaching. I’ve never heard my pastor preach anything out of context.
Anonymous
Justin Miller You can’t even get a right interpretation of the bible when the Spirit will reveal what it means. How then can you boast about discerning a real deliverance. Show some humility. You get it by being humble enough to be taught by the Spirit.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse There is no boasting, all you do is ask the individual if there is a change, only they will truly know if they got deliverance or not. If someone says to you that the issue isn’t resolved then you can know that deliverance didn’t occur.
Anonymous
I believe in  deliverance . I know one thing, you have to be very prayed up to tackle somebody else is demon. Bring your holy oil, the word of God, and your prayers , because you sure will need it.
I had a great old pastor once who knew a man who’s son was possessed by a demon. My pastor and a few other men pastors went with him. It took them a little while but, they got that demon out of the young man! Praise Jesus!
Yeah, I believe it is lacking in the pentecostal church today.
Anonymous
Thank you for the update. Yes there are people that don’t know anything about the be demons and don’t know how to do with them. We need to pray than the pastor can help them. We need more praying and fasting in our churches.
Anonymous
Carolyn Tournear what about daily verse by verse bible study as so few study the bible daily.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse That’s a good idea. I will pray that God will lead me to that study and teach it.
Anonymous
Considering AG pastors are prohibiting the speaking in tongues…
Anonymous
Derek Godfrey says who?
Anonymous
Troy Day says facts. Happened at the local megachurch AG.
Anonymous
Derek Godfrey ???
Anonymous
Troy Day not the first instance of Pentecostals being against tongues I’ve heard of in the last few years.
Anonymous
Dan Anthony why would you come under this post cursing everyone who disagrees with you and calling the possessed with no chance for deliverance? Our resident experts Isara Mo William DeArteaga would tell you that the devil acts the same way spreading discourse in the group while blaming it onto other people and so on
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Duane L Burgess Jared G. Cheshire Luke 4:33-37 And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice, Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God. And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not. And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out. And the fame of him went out into every place of the country round about.
Anonymous
Troy Day Yes Jesus did but the modern day guessers/accusers are just mockers. Too much show as an excuse for not knowing and caring about the bible to preach it. The deliverance ministry is great for ego and publicity.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse another good answer to the question asked by Justin Miller NOT sure why he is not back to answer Jared G. Cheshire
Anonymous
Troy Day
For almost ten years I was in a false new age group and didn’t know I had demons until the day i went for a deliverance.
Most of the times arguers against demons aren’t themselves ..it is the spirits speaking thru them and most of the times they sound suave and wise and very intelligent..
Anonymous
Justin Miller you claim the church needs to preach deliverance more. Where do you find that in the bible. A simple reading of the bible, which so many fail to do, shows Paul giving us what he preached –1 cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, —1 cor 2:2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. — Paul told us to imitate him as he did Jesus (so few know that is in the bible it seems) 1 cor 1:11 Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ. – In the book of acts while they casted out demons , they didn’t preach deliverance. If you would read their sermons they preached, sin, righteousness and the coming wrath. Justin you should already know this instead of chasing things the early church didn’t.— Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you have us for a pattern. Paul in Phil 3:17
Anonymous
well John Mushenhouse our friend Justin Miller is RIGHT that the church needs to preach deliverance from a-mil preached by Dan Anthony
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I agree with most of what you said, however I think you need to reevaluate one point. You said they didn’t preach deliverance, that Paul said to imitate him as he imitated Christ, even though you didn’t say it there were several cases in which other Apostles said to do what Jesus did. Here’s what Jesus said about Himself.
Luke 4:18-19 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to 👉preach👈 deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, to preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
Now it is incumbent on us to know who the captives were and what they are being delivered from.
Media: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=819691382881283&set=p.819691382881283&type=3
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire where is the resurrection in MT 24?
Anonymous
Jared G. Cheshire do a deeper study on what the deliverance was. We automatically jump into our modern day deliverance. What was the deliverance there — deliverance = aphesis = release, forgiveness, pardon — That doesn’t sound like casting out. It sounds like freedom those who were slaves to sin. — Jesus didn’t preach on casting out – When He encountered someone, He casted out and He gave the disciples power over them. When they encountered they casted out (Philip, Paul). They didn’t preach it – again read their sermons in acts and the epistles. If I encounter, I will cast out in the name of the Lord, but I don’t take it lightly as so many of today’s followers of the 7 sons of sceva do. I believe there are not many possessed. Too many in their showmanship do. When teaching verse by verse I cover casting out and explain, but when I preach I imitate Paul and preach Christ. Today few do as they preach themselves -2 cor 4:5 For we do not preach ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord, and ourselves your bondservants for Jesus’ sake. —What I see in these modern day drama shows instead of the deliverance from sin as Jesus proclaimed is the putting on stunts. Not in every case but in most. Once again, the words of Jesus ring true for those charlatans and blind followers of the blind – Matt 22:29 Jesus replied, “You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. — For all the claiming concerning the power many boast about, they just are in error. — 1 Thessalonians 5 – Test everything 1 John 4:1 don’t believe every spirit but test them– Too many fakes putting on shows and the wannabe watchers of them thrilled with power , but not the power of the Holy Spirit . Read acts 1:8-9 for what that power is
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse that was my point. The captives there are prisoners of War. That is what the Greek word means. Who were prisoners of war? I think it has to do with more than being a slave to sin, although that is a part of it. I believe it has to do with Seaking and saving that which was lost. Remember Jesus said he was not sent but to the lost sheep of the House of Israel.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse people mystify Deliverance too much. Some of them so much that they border on Angel worship. Yes I agree there are unclean spirits, and yes I believe people can be delivered from them, however I do not believe that is the context of most deliverance.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Yes Paul did have some deliverance topics he shared.
nor give place to the devil.
Ephesians 4:27
Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
Ephesians 6:11-13
Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,
I Timothy 4:1
Now whom you forgive anything, I also forgive. For if indeed I have forgiven anything, I have forgiven that one for your sakes in the presence of Christ, lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices.
II Corinthians 2:10-11
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ,
II Corinthians 10:3-5
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.
II Corinthians 11:13-15
And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
II Corinthians 12:7-8
which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come. And He put all things under His feet, and gave Him to be head over all things to the church,
Ephesians 1:20-22
Jesus also preached/taught about deliverance too. I can provide scripture references if you want?
Anonymous
Justin Miller You so misinterpreted in an effort to prove a point which can’t be made. Justin go to someone who can mentor you how to study and do proper exegesis.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Care to elaborate then on what Paul is talking about here?
You seem to claim there’s a misinterpretation, but cannot provide an explanation nor also when asked where and what is the misinterpretation. Then make the assumption that it’s poor exegesis and inability to study properly.
Anonymous
Justin Miller I will leave with this as I said you need biblical mentoring which a forum cannot give – 2 Tim 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
Do your best is how our modern day translates the word study – It is in the imperative meaning an order and to give highest attention. It goes on to say that we can be approved by God- How- By rightly handling/dividing the word of truth. That also says we can come to the knowledge of the truth as we rightly handle it. That handling is a term from tailors. They had a pattern which they closely followed when cutting out cloth for clothes. – Sadly few do their best Justin, as they only care for outward shows of power (most fake) and don’t do their best in regards to the bible interpretation, but search out proof texts to fit their presuppositional bias. Go outside of your group and have someone teach you hermeneutics. I also don’t think you answered by question if you studied the bible deeply on a daily basis or if your church had verse by verse bible studies. Since you are riding a biblical hobby horse with only one thought, you are hard of hearing. Instead of going on, I suggest you study the word.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse boasting or boosting? Justin Miller has stated quite the platform that Philip Williams Brett Dobbs etc. failed to defeat
Anonymous
boasting.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Can you answer my question or are you going to keep riddling your comments with more bias judgments and insults on how I am ignorant and poor in exegesis?
What was Paul speaking about in the verses I listed above that you said I misinterpreted?
Anonymous
Justin Miller Justin _ I didn’t read as I spoke what I believe. There is no use continuing as you don’t understand basic hermeneutics and you just proof text. I assume that instead of answering me about if you actually study the bible or if your church teaches verse by verse, your reply will be reduced to a ungracious personal attack. Now Justin – seek a church/pastor that will teach you how to study the bible and encourage you to study it and not perform tricks to entertain yourself.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Answer my question please…
What is Paul referring to in the passages above?
I’ve already answered you about my studies and Church/Pastor.
Anonymous
It is amazing how far ministers can go in defence of demons.
I have had enough encounters with these entities in most churches where I attended and am always trying to figure out why aren’t people casting out demons eventually I realised it is all centred on false doctrinal foundations and the comfort of religiousity.
Anonymous
Isara Mo I call it Churchianity, but religiosity is a good one.
Anonymous
Isara Mo nobody is defending demons as you read into it. Stop that. I personally am attacking the non-biblical nonsense. I call it biblical Christianity, but I am sure that your belief here is sensationalism. I believe if most in here would ever encounter a demon they would be as one of the 7 sons of Sevea. Illusions of grandeur and little knowledge of the bible.
Anonymous
You say you are born again and you dont cast out demons ?
That is like being a soldier in the army who doesn’t know what a uniform is.
Anonymous
Isara Mo who are you speaking to?
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse
And these signs will accompany (those who believe:) In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;
Mark 16:17 NIV//
I was speaking to those who believe or claim to believe ..
Anonymous
Isara Mo yes nobody has said they we won’t. I just am saying many see demons when there are not any and too many preach deliverance and do little to no soulwinning outside f the comfort zones of their churches. Plus too many have no clue about context and so they continually build their doctrines on partial scriptures taken out of context and misapplied.
Anonymous
Isara Mo I dont know about this thing of nobody is defending demons as you read into it and so on Reading the books by William DeArteaga which Philip Williams recommends seems like ppl who defend demons are quite demonized
Anonymous
Troy Day some are processed by this question. Can a question be a demon?
Anonymous
Philip Williams boasting or boosting? asking for John Mushenhouse
Anonymous
Troy Day you are the one trying to boost your website!
Anonymous
No true saint can be demon possessed. Do not be deceived.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess MANY People I have loved greatly in our area and prayed hours for have completely abandoned the idea of being part of God’s great army at the War Room. For whatever reason which matters not to me but to the Lord. They left and never returned to the fellowship in which they said the Lord had sent them. Personal opinions drive most people and not the Holy Ghost. It’s sad knowing the work they were to do from here will suffer or not even be done. They should come and finish the courses God gave them faithfully and see God bless them. If not, their blessings could be delayed or stopped. The gift and call of God is without repentance.
Anonymous
Duane L Burgess Why did Jesus tell us to cast them out if they all leave automatically after a person gets saved?
Anonymous
MANY People I have loved greatly in our area and prayed hours for have completely abandoned the idea of being part of God’s great army at the War Room. For whatever reason which matters not to me but to the Lord. They left and never returned to the fellowship in which they said the Lord had sent them. Personal opinions drive most people and not the Holy Ghost. It’s sad knowing the work they were to do from here will suffer or not even be done. They should come and finish the courses God gave them faithfully and see God bless them. If not, their blessings could be delayed or stopped. The gift and call of God is without repentance.
Anonymous
Justin Miller YES Win Worley ..the late GREAT Win Worley
Anonymous
https://youtu.be/UB2bHMYo2Gc
Anonymous
Douglas Dole is this the same Derek Prince from the ” Shepherding movement”. My wife was friends with his step daughter. BTW whatever happened to the ” ‘Fort Lauderdale Five” and their movement? Troy Day, Link Hudson ? your views on the “5”
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse I don’t know, but here is some more info.
https://jacobyoung84.medium.com/the-shepherding-movement-a-summary-5883c3d27e9f
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Derek had several wives through the ” Shepherding movement” Peter Vandever would know better https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/what-were-the-theological-problems-of-the-shepherding-movement/
Anonymous
Troy Day this was from his second legal wife. His step daughter was nice and while quite the evangelical, didn’t fall for much. She didn’t speak much of Prince or his teachings.
Anonymous
John Mushenhouse Their doctrine of a vertical, descending, chain of command established:
“a pyramid-shaped, multi-tiered organizational structure, which had at the top echelon of the pyramid (it just so happened) none other than the Fab Five themselves, who claimed (conveniently) to be in “submission” to each other, which arrangement, they purported, acted as a fail-safe “checks and balance” system to totally preclude them from falling prey to the corruptive properties of absolute power to which, historically, so many others (albeit, less spiritual than they, of course) succumbed.”
Anonymous
Troy Day then when that was exposed prince made a living being a deliverance expert.
Anonymous
The basic idea of the Shepherding Movement is one of submission to authority. The Shepherding Movement called for five leaders at the top of a global leadership pyramid. These men were responsible for one another’s spiritual health and keeping each other on track by “covenant relationships” and mutual accountability. Beneath each of those five “shepherds” were five other people, responsible for one another but submitted to the authority of their shepherd. And so on, down the line. Each of these groups of five was called a “submission,” and their devotion to their shepherds was absolute. No major decisions were made without first consulting with one’s shepherd—marriage and career choices included.
Anonymous
Troy Day doesn’t that sound a lot like the Moonies?